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Shamir1 removed
“ | In a 2004 article, Dennis Ross, the Middle East envoy under the first Bush and Clinton administrations, was cited as saying that Hezbollah's resistance to the Israeli occupation, unlike its past activities aimed at Western targets, is not terrorism and that the US included Hezbollah on its list of terrorist groups for Hezbollah's past activities, not for its ongoing resistance to Israel. [1] | ” |
with the edit summary "misrep of source, in addition the editorial cites a source which cites a source which cites Christopher Ross responsible for that position". But the source [1] says,
“ | Dennis Ross, the Middle East envoy under the first Bush and Clinton administrations, has stated that Hezbollah's resistance to the Israeli occupation, unlike its past activities aimed at Western targets, is not terrorism. | ” |
And in a footnote to that statement,
“ | Ross stated in the daily as-Safir that the US included Hezbollah on its list of terrorist groups for Hezbollah's past activities, not for its ongoing resistance to Israel. | ” |
So what gives?? < eleland/ talk edits> 18:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding your revert of the Hezbollah article, besides the fact that I am already skeptical of a tertiary source that is an editorial and does not use quotations, the cited source cites this source. And that source cites this, which says that Christopher Ross made those comments. :::-- Shamir1 19:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The NYBooks source accurately quotes the Hajjar source (which is available at Google Books), but I'm still a little skeptical that the Hajjar source accurately quotes the as-Safir source because I don't think that Dennis Ross would ever say that Hezbollah's targetting of Israeli civilians does not amount to terrorism. Unfortunately, I do not know how to read Arabic and so I cannot check the as-Safir website myself. Could someone who knows Arabic find the article cited in Hajjar's book: "Ross: The Resistance of Hizballah Is Not Terrorism," March 23, 2002? -- GHcool 23:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Please consider WP:SIZE. It's not an absolute rule, but perhaps some material should be split into separate articles. In addition to being more attractive to more readers, a more concise article reduces the amount of discussion needed to achieve consensus, especially on controversial topics as this one is. Unimaginative Username 06:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Do you agree with nominating the article in Wikipedia:Peer review. I think this article is going to be an FA article.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 16:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated this article for peer review in last week. But just it has received suggestions which were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program. Please be bold and write your ideas and suggestions here.-- Seyyed( t- c) 03:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In some cases I'm not satisfied with the suggestions and we should discuss about them.
It looks like we need to go through all references again, and replace links with the Cite templates. This is a potential FA failure point under criteria 2c. mceder ( u t c) 13:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In attempting to copy-edit this article, have noticed various spellings of the organization. It's often difficult to transliterate other alphabets (Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Cyrillic, etc.) into English, but if the article is entitled, "Hezbollah", then for consistency, it should be spelled that way throughout. Please keep this in mind when making edits! Thank you, Unimaginative Username 06:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SJP, sounds like a good plan! Please do so if you can. I'm just here to copy-edit and have little personal knowledge of the topic, spellings, sources, etc. Thanks, Unimaginative Username 01:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
While copy-editing, noticed this statement: "The US estimates that Iran has been giving Hezbollah about US$60-100 million per year in financial assistance, but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America." However, the article that is cited appears to verify only the estimated $60-100 million, but not the portion of the statement about this figure declining as South American funding rose. I'm not going to change this, but if there is a source for the decline in Iranian funding, please provide; else, perhaps the South American funding should be mentioned without any connection to an Iranian reduction. Unimaginative Username 07:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Barakat is co-owner of Galeria Page, one of Ciudad del Este's biggest shopping malls, which intelligence sources said they believe he has used as a front for raising funds and recruiting volunteers for Hezbollah.
Sounds good... thanks. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 07:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Copy-edit is complete. The only other content issue I noted (besides the above) was that there is still a tag (challenge) in the section on Russia's position on Hezbollah. Would suggest that a consensus be reached there before FAR. Good luck with FA! Unimaginative Username 07:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
That was my impression, but having not done any research on this topic, only copy-editing it, I felt that the change should be made only by editors involved with this article. I agree with the two posts above, and do think it reads more clearly and flows better now. Regards, Unimaginative Username ( talk) 07:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
In copy-editing this article, I've become rather interested in it and in its progress to FA. I'm at WP only intermittently, but if you feel that I could be of any further assistance in this area, please feel free to place a message on my talk page. Will respond when able. Peace, Unimaginative Username ( talk) 05:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind comments. I have not done any research on this topic, and so cannot contribute as far as content. I meant that when you resolve the content issues and get it to a stable version with consensus, I would be happy to copy-edit again. As for helping with the wiki-stress of a controversial article, I am not an admin, and I am not sure that it would be proper to act as some sort of unofficial moderator. But as a copy-editor, I like to see all WP articles well-written, in a fair and balanced manner. If there is something specific I could do, let me know. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 05:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm no expert on Hezbollah, but I can immediately see four five significant problems with the article (only the last fourth of which is under consideration):
1) Hezbollah supporters claim it has now defeated Israel 5 times. We may not accept the claims, but we need to report them properly ( "Conflict against Israel" in the article doesn't do it). Here's how a March 07 Counterpunch article lists these victories: 1) The April 30, 1985 Israel withdrawal ... direct result of military pressure from a new organization ... calling itself Hezbollah. 2) July 1993. Israel's "operation accountability". ... UN counted 1,224 air raids and more than 28,000 US shells fired into Lebanon by Israel ... Hezbollah fired Katusha rockets for 10 hours into Galilee settlements ... Israel had enough and contacted Washington to arrange a ceasefire. 3) April 11, 1996 Israel's 'Operation Grapes of Wrath'. ... Hezbollah's victory cost Shimon Peres ... 1996 Israeli election. 4) May 24, 2000. ... abandoning its planned phased withdrawal as well as its agents, the South Lebanon's Army. 5) Hezbollah's claimed (and widely accepted) victory in 2006 July.
2) Hezbollah tries not to punish the many Lebanese who have collaborated. Hezbollah scores mightily with this tactic, which is vital to understanding it's relative success. (Bush and Olmert are alleged to want another Civil War in Lebanon, seeking out and arming small factions - another side of the same coin? - also needs mentioning).
3) There is no mention that the founders of Israel always intended to seize the south of Lebanon. David Ben-Gurion in 1937 wanted the northern border of Israel to be with a new Christian state (while boasting of transfers already carried out). His political opponents, Begin, Shamir etc wanted the whole of Lebanon and much more. It took the Lebanese at least 45 years (since before their state existed until 1982) to wake up to the threat they were and are under, and Hezbollah was and is the first real indication of it. (Dayan was talking of the take-over of Lebanon in 1955 according to Sharett's diaries).-- Seyyed( t- c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
4) We quote the "1985 Hezbollah manifesto" as saying: "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated." a) The statement in question is not a manifesto (see reasons above). b) Even if this was the manifesto, to use a translation with "obliterate" is needlessly alarming - we have lots of examples of immigrant controlled (and bitterly resented) governments collapsing without too much drama. We're publishing the propaganda of one side with these weasel words. PR talk 11:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
5) No mention that the Palestinians are Sunni, the opposite of Hezbollah and al-Qaeda and (according to Zarqawi referenced several times) their sworn enemy. Careful work is needed if people are to have a chance of "understanding" the subject. PR talk 17:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
These are my idea about 5 points which PR has mentioned:
-- Seyyed( t- c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, hello again. Didn't intend to become involved in content issues, but in reviewing, saw this statement: " But until such a settlement is reached, he said that he would continue to encourage Palestinian suicide bombers." I read the article that is cited as a source for this statement, a 2003 interview with Nasrallah. There is no such quote. The interviewer says of Nasrallah, "In his speeches to the faithful, his language is laced with ... rationalizations for suicide bombings. ". "Rationalization" is not quite the same degree as actively "encouraging". I didn't see anything in this interview in which Nasrallah encourages suicide bombings until there is a Palestinian state; the other parts of this section indicates that he feels such a settlement is a Palestinian matter. Unless someone sees something else in the interview that I missed, or has other sources, it seems that this statement should be removed, as misrepresenting Nasrallah's position. Perhaps changed to, "However, Nasrallah has rationalized suicide bombing attacks." That is the most NPOV way that I could describe what was in this 2003 interview. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 06:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
This discussion started briefly during the Peer Review, but I moved it here the PR was nearly at its end.
First, I am opposed to the "Background" section in the article. In its current state, it's vague, poorly written and with no clear goal to what this section precisely describes. Does it mean "Background to Hezbollah"? A rather odd terminology since we're not talking about an event or a war. "Background" might mean "Origins of Hezbollah", but if it was true it would've belonged to a "History" section. Maybe it provides some insights to better understand Hezbollah (?), but I don't see how Hezbollah is so complex so a reader won't understand it. Anywyay, I don't understand the need for this section, unless you clearly define its objective.
Second, why there is no "History" section like any article on an entity or organization? You are claiming that the article is too complex, but it's not a valid objection. This article fails to present in a concise, clear and easy-to-find way a summary of the history of Hezbollah, a piece of information any reader doing a research will need. If you're saying that the article is too long, the problem comes from the other sections or the whole organization of the article. If you're saying that it's too complex and controversial, there exist many good summaries about Hezbollah (check CrisisGroup, and see the last Lebanon report). Finally, a "History" section is a standard in all Wikipedia article, and I don't see why should this article should be treated differently.
Anyway, as I said, this article is remarkably written in a neutral way and it deserves to reach FA status. CG ( talk) 18:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I realize that a great amount of time has been spent debating and working on this article to reach a consensus, most of which I have not read, I see a problem in the language of at least the lead. Namely: "Hezbollah's three main goals" ... "Hezbollah has realized that the goal of ..." "Hezbollah wishes for the destruction of Israel,..."
We don't know what Hezbollah's goals or wishes are. What we know what Hezbollah has said, and what some claim it has done. This is not at all a minor point since in at least one country (USA), Hezbollah is considered the #2 terrorist enemy (in terms of civilians and off-duty soliders of that country killed) next to al-Qaeda. It is very common for books that mention Hezbollah (at least ones published in the USA) to describe it as the perpetrator of the bombings of both the US embassies and of Multinational Peacekeeping Force barracks, without any caveat, i.e. they state it as a fact on which there is no debate worth mentioning. Yet Hezbollah denies the charge. So i put it to you that it is important to use wording in the article consistant with what is known. We should change the wording on this lead and probably in the rest of the story to reflect that.
Proposed change:
literally " party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon. It follows an Islamist Shi'a ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran. [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
In addition the lead should say that Hezbollah is now the only armed non-governmental group in Lebanon.
-- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a change here [3]. This was what the first source says. The second one was about Iran's admission of helping Hezbollah from an Israeli newspaper, so I added a note that a third perspective source(like UN) or an Iranian source is required for this. Cheers, -- Be happy!! ( talk) 07:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a very serious allegation, and should not just be thrown around, and should be very properly sourced if accompanied by the sentence "Hizballah is openly anti-Semitic", which is obvious POV and original research. As it is now, all this article should say is that he has been quoted by the Lebanese newspaper the Daily Star for saying so and so, but nowhere else.
As for the other examples, the statement about going back to Germany is hardly anti-Semitic, and there is no proof that Hizballah was even involved in the Argentina bombing. Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hardly anti-Jewish. Anyhow, it's not about whether you or I believe the statement is racist or anti-Semitic, it's about whether we have reliable sources for it being so or not. There are none. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, why did you remove this fact? "which a group called Islamic Jihad took responsibility for. " Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Or are you referring to another discussion? If not, I'm afraid I'll have to revert your edits. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
More importantly, wouldn't it be pretty biased to leave the "Islam and antisemitism" category in the article, when the basis for this is a disputed quote? Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with your claim that the Nasrallah quote is disputed by "one person in the world", though I of course realise that it is not to be taken literally, but for the sake of others who might read what we write, Glass cites both the publisher and the managing editor of the Daily Star (two more persons, representing the entire newspaper) as questioning the intentions of the man who wrote the article, which all other sources mentioning the incident seem to have cited it from, and a Hizballah spokesperson (a fourth, representing the entire organisation).
The important thing here is of course that the newspaper itself, not just Glass, have serious doubts in the validity of the quotes. That the quote has been cited by others as well is irrelevant, as these all seem to use that exact article in the Daily Star as source for this! That's pretty extraordinary, and really undermines the credibility of the quote.
However, I of course agree that if the quote was true, and if Hizballah was behind the Argentina bombings, then the organisation is anti-Semitic, and should be categorised as such. The problem is just that these are allegations, not facts, so having this article categorised as it is would be heavy POV by any standards. It is practically libel.
As for the destruction of Israel as a state, well, how is this inherently anti-Semitic? Hizballah does not oppose a Jewish state, it simply opposes a Jewish state in the region it presently exists in, not due to the fact that the inhabitants are Jews, but due to the fact that they (Hizballah) believe the land has been wrongfully acquired by Jews. Heck, they even endorse the idea that Jews should live among them, provided that they are "indigenous", if I interpret their statement correctly. Even saying the organisation is anti-Ashkenazic would be quite a stretch.
What I just said might seem euphemistic to some, but I do not know of anything that proves the case to be anything else.
Also, could you explain to me why this [12] had to be removed? The info I added is straight from the source, very important to understanding how severe the critique of the quote is, and is very relevant. Removing "publisher and managing editor" and substituting it with "the editors" would downplay the significance of the critique considerably. I have reworded it considerably in my last revision though.
Furthermore, it was not even mentioned in the previous version that the quote had been published in the Daily Star. The article simply said "citing other published accounts of the speech that had no reference to the anti-Semitic comment, and statements by the Star's editors that questioned both the translation and the "agenda of the translator."
The newspaper was mentioned in a way that would imply that it had been introduced previously in the article, which it hadn't. Funkynusayri ( talk) 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
1: Glass cites the editor-in-chief and managing editor of the Daily Star, as well as a Hizballlah spokesperson. Unless he's lying, this accounts for several, highly important sources. If you want to prove me wrong, provide me with a link to where this was previously discussed, and where it ended in favour of your conclusion.
2: Yet we give undue weight to a quote which has been published independently in only one newspaper (I'll email the author of the article in the NYT about their source for it if necessary, which is most likely The Daily Star, yet again), we even use that one, questionable quote as basis for labeling en entire organisation as anti-Semitic. All I have added was this "and statements by the editor-in-chief of the Lebanese newspaper The Daily Star which published the quotes".
Could you please explain to me why this section, straight from the source, gives undue weight to the article? My additions are simple: I provide a link to the Daily Star, explain that the quotes were published there, and explain that it was the editor in chief, not just any editor of the newspaper who criticized the quote.
I sure respect the outcome of the previous discussion (though the fact that concensus was reached there wasn't enough to even keep the Glass critique in the article for some reason), I'm even repeating George's own arguments, which you agreed with: "I think it's worth noting which staff members questioned the translation (they were the editors, Chayban's bosses, not his peers, or the company's janitorial crew)."
You replied: "Fine."
Could you explain to me why the word "editors" is more appropriate than "editor-in-chief", when it clearly downplays the level of authority of the criticisers? Could you also explain to me why it is not even explained that the Daily Star was the newspaper which published the quotes? All this highly important information is in the source, yet you disapprove of the inclusion of it.
3: I can only repeat what I've already said twice, Hizballah endorsed the notion that Jews should live among Muslims, in the Middle East, just not in their own state. This analogy "That's like saying that Hitler would not oppose a Jewish population so long as it isn't in Europe" is thus baseless as result.
Jews live in Europe and the US, yet they do not have their own state in Europe or the US. So unless a Jewish state is necessary for the survival of all Jews (which I doubt the far majority of the world's Jews, who do not even live in Israel, believe), wanting to destroy or dismantle such a state is not anti-Semitic. Unless this desire is rooted in hate for Jews as a people of course. That does not seem to be the provable case for Hizballah. Funkynusayri ( talk) 14:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
To make the sources apply to the organisation itself is original research. Furthermore, the reason why the station was blocked is explained here: [17]
"The court cited a 23 November broadcast in which a speaker accused Israel of deliberately disseminating Aids in Arab nations."
Excuse me if I hurt the feelings of anyone by saying that I'm unable to detect the anti-Semitic content in that statement. The accusation is ridiculous, but nowhere are Jews or Judaism attacked.
As for this source [18], that is merely one POV, and should be discussed in the article. It isn't reason enough to label an entire organisation anti-Semitic on a neutral encyclopedia though. From that link:
"To most Israelis, and, indeed, to most Jews, the belief that Israel should be destroyed is itself a kind of anti-Semitism."
Yes, but is that a universal belief? No. I have already explained the reason for that in my message above.
If there was a category called "Organisations accused of being anti-Semitic", I would not disapprove of this article being tagged with it. But there isn't. You've made me wonder about one thing; if Hizballah really was as vehemently anti-Semitic as you think, why does the organisation then always deny that it is? What would it gain? After all, it seems that everyone else thinks they are anti-Semites regardless of what they say. So what is their motivation for denying it, and what do they have to lose if they don't? Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
1: Yes, we can conclude that, therefore it is original research.
2: Well, I see no source there specifically stating Hizbollah is an anti-Semitic organisation, and the accusation is the POV of only one person in the world.
3: That's one POV mainly held by pro-Israelis, of course, I've already explained numerous times why it might not be shared by other, even neutral, factions.
4: Again, they endorse Jewish/Muslim coexistence in the Middle East, but oppose a Jewish state there. I have yet to hear a good argument for that being an example of anti-Semitism. Could you give me one? Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to give the Arab world's perspective, Hezbollah's own statements, and Israel's and the Western world's statements all a voice in this article; we should not treat any of their statements in a matter of fact way, though. Wikipedia is opposed to usage of terms like "terrorist organization" for this very reason; a terrorist is a POV word. The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be considered a terrorist attack, for example, since it specifically targeted civilians (regardless of whether or not one thinks that it was necessary to end WWII).
The article's categorization should be based on a reliable secondary source that clearly states Hezbollah is anti-Semitic. While it would be accurate to say Hezbollah wants the state of Israel to be destroyed, that cannot be interpreted as anti-Semitism. Hezbollah also says, from their own original doctrine, that they want "to expel Americans, the French and their allies (sic) definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity" on their land. Hezbollah considers Israel to be a foreign, colonialist element that has been imposed on the Levant. That's their POV. I don't think that necessarily makes them anti-Semitic, at least on the surface. IMO, to categorize Hezbollah as anti-Semitic seems like endorsing a POV and a little bit presumptuous, especially when one considers the fact that this is an issue of debate between two POVs. They certainly are anti-Zionist, but as I said, you don't have to hate Jews to oppose the creation of Israel; even the United Nations was anti-Zionist at one point. I would propose expanding an explanation for whether or not they are anti-Semitic in this article in a way that does not cater to either point of view (Israeli or Hezbollahi), and remove the categorization, also, since it is clearly a contentious issue. This would allow readers to decide for themselves. - Rosywounds ( talk) 17:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Hezbollah, in their own words, wants to remove any entity in the Middle East that they deem foreign or colonialist. This was and still is not limited to Israelis. I'm not sure if destruction was the exact words that Hezbollah used, but if their rhetoric is in line with the Iranian government's, then it is unlikely that they ever made reference to Israel as a state or Jews as a people; Iran's government always refers to the "Zionist regime," "Zionist entity," or the "Regime in Jerusalem" (speaking about the Israeli government). Even if we assume that Hezbollah referred to Israel as the state of Israel, which seems out of character, you have again associated Zionism and Judaism and have implied that Judaism and Zionism are synonymous. To demand for the destruction of Hezbollah isn't any more Islamophobic than to demand for the destruction of Israel is anti-Semitic or to demand for the destruction of Italy is anti-Catholic, unless a context is given through which such an assumption can be made. In this case, there is no context; this is simply your own original research. As for the AIDS comment, I believe it went something like this "...Zionist attempts to transmit dangerous diseases like AIDS through exports to Arab countries." I suppose that it is true that they use traditional anti-Semitic statements born in Europe originally (e.g. Blood libel, well poisoning) and simply switch "Jew" to "Zionist." IMO, it is still too contentious (and presumptuous) to include the category based on how we interpret it, though. We don't know, for example, whether or not Hezbollah would make such parallel statements if a state of Israel didn't exist, do we? It would be entirely speculation. But I'm not about to fight over this anymore, since it's clearly going to go no where. - Rosywounds ( talk) 07:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The better analogy would be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_paul#Newsletter_controversy
I don't see Ron Paul in a "Racists" category or similar, simply because it would be POV. Having this article in the category in question is nothing but POV and OR.
Applying the European concept of "well poisoning" to Hizballah propaganda while attributing it to their "anti-Semitism" is misleading and POV anyway, Hizballah publishes negative propaganda about Israel because Israel is a state which is hostile to Lebanon and Hizballah itself, not because Israelis are Jews. Likewise, Hizballah publishes negative propaganda about Saudi Arabia, not because it is hostile to Arabs, but because the Saudis are hostile towards Hizballah.
Following your logic (POV), the mere fact that Hizballah is in conflict with Israel, and the inevitable consequences of this, makes it "anti-Semitic".
I could probably find more sources stating that Hizballah is a resistance movement than an anti-Semitic one, but I won't categorise this article as such, because I know it would be POV.
So again, there is no valid rationale for keeping the category here, other than pure POV. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see any reasons why any of these terms are synonyms. At least not neutral ones
As for the quote, we've already discussed it quite a lot of times now, and for all I'm concerned, it has been debunked as a myth. Check the Charles Glass link. Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Rosywounds, if I attacked Saudiarabia or Italy tomorrow, it sure as hell wouldn't mean that I like Saudiarabs or Italians (never mind Islam or Catholicism; that's beside the point, and an Ignoratio elenchi). Likewise, it's the same case if I attacked Israel; I wouldn't like Jews. Contrary to popular belief, and contrary to how you're trying to misrepresent the case, Jews are not only a religious group, but they are also, an ethnic group, and arguably also a unique race. Of course there are converts to Judaism, but they don't count because they are few and not even allowed in Orthodox Judaism. That said, your Italy and Saudiarabia parallel doesn't hold any water in this case. If I or anyone else attacked Israel tomorrow, it would be, because hatred of Jews (or at least antipathy) is involved in the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EliasAlucard ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the quote, we've already discussed it quite a lot of times now, and for all I'm concerned, it has been debunked as a myth. Check the Charles Glass link. — Well okay then, how about this quote? “If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli.” — Hassan Nasrallah. Has this one been debunked as a myth too? Clearly, the guy is anti-Jewish (notice, I do not use the neologism "antisemite"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by EliasAlucard ( talk • contribs) 12:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
And GH, again, it's up to POV. So I'll respond with POV:
1: Hizballah wants to destroy a hostile state called Israel which has attacked Lebanon plenty of times, still violates its airspace, and, according to some, occupies part of Lebanon. Israel is thus an enemy state. Many of Israel's citizens happen to be Jews (a minority of the Jews of the world), but that is not the reason why Hizballah is at conflict with the country.
Yet again, you ignore the Nasrallah quote where he states that he endorses the notion that Jews should live safely among Muslims in the Middle East, just not in their own state. Could you please explain how that is anti-Semitic?
2: Israel is an enemy state to them for reasons already stated, propaganda against enemy states and their allies in times of war isn't exactly out of the ordinary. This is a big contrast to the European anti-Semitism, which was rooted in mere racism.
3: Again, simply war-time propaganda.
4-5-6: Accusations. Could be true, could not be true. We are not to take sides, but to simply mention the allegations.
The evidence for Hizballah being anti-Semitic is generated by POV and OR. Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
According to Hizballah and many others, Israel has not pulled out of Lebanon completely, due to the continuous occupation of the Shebaa Farms. Israel also continues to violate Lebanese airspace, and still holds Lebanese prisoners. Therefore, the state of Lebanon itself, as well as Hizbollah, believes Israel is a hostile nation. Lebanon is still officially at war with Israel.
2:See point one.
3:According to Hizballah, there are Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists outside Israel who support Israel against Hizballah and other Arabs through funding and lobbying. This is pretty much a fact, though they might exaggerate the extent of it, but again, that's how propaganda works. The propaganda does not attack all Jews for what they are, but attacks the Jews who directly supports Israel politically and economically.
4:Notice that the text says the threshold of inclusion.
No one is against these allegations being mentioned, thoroughly sourced and discussed, the problem is that this article should not take sides in the conflict, which is what you are advocating by categorising it in a specific way. It is verifiable that Hizballah is anti-Semitic according to a POV, not that it is anti-Semitic. The difference is huge.
Yet again, I can probably find reliable sources arguing that Hizballah is a "resistance movement", therefore it can be mentioned in the article that this POV is held by some, but I do not put the article in a "resistance movements" category here on Wikipedia, as that is only a POV. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Again,
1:POV.
2:POV.
3:POV.
4:POV.
If POV is to be taken as fact, let's show both sides of the conflict, and categorise Hizballah as a "resistance movment". That's the consequence.
Or let's not, and stay neutral. Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I really can't imagine how could Muslims and Arabs particularly be accused of Anti-semitism. Everybody who thinks like this is ignorant. Why? Simply thanks to two reasons. First, the present Jews who claimed the land of Palestine aren't Hebrews. Second because Arabs are descendant from Ismael the son of Abraham so they are cousins of the Hebrews, and so, they Semites at the same scale of Hebrews and more. Arabs memorized the genealogy of their tribes since the beginning of Islam and also before, and it simple to make the genealogical tree of an Arab going back to Abraham. As for the Jews, they are not smite though their language is indeed. Last but not least, Semites have been on the land of Palestine centuries before the Exodus: Jebusean, Moabite, Ammonitea and others... So everyone who got these small historical truths can't say Hezbollah is anti-semitic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.254.24.213 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The arabic language is semitic, the arabic people are semitic, so if you accuse arabs of being anti semitic, you are also accusing them of being anti arab. unless hezbollah has persian memebers then it could be anti semitic, no wait it cant because they support shiite arabs too. RestoreTheEmpireSociety ( talk) 23:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, the content I removed is biased, if you are going to say that "Hezbollah was responsible for thousands of Katyusha rocket attacks against Israeli civilian towns and cities in northern Israel." then you also need to say that Israeli jets targeted Lebanese civilians in southern Lebanon. It's better to Remove both sentences in my opinion, I just put the casualties summary at the end of the paragraph. ( Imad marie ( talk) 08:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC))
The line a neutral statement of fact complying with all Wikipedia guidelines. Lebanese death statistics are an important factor in the 2006 Lebanon War, and are referenced in that article, but they are tangental to the topic of Hezbollah. By Imad marie's faulty logic, we should add statistics for German casualties of World War II in the Nazi Party article for "balance." -- GHcool ( talk) 17:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, please justify your last revert. ( Imad marie ( talk) 07:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
We can say something like: "Hezbollah managed to launch thousands of Katyusha rockets against targets in northern Israel in retaliation to the Israeli massive air attack", something like that. But I'm not sure if we can find a reference that says the word "retaliation". In my opinion there is no need to use the word "civilian" at this point. ( Imad marie ( talk) 17:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
If you are going to use the word "civilian" then you have to explicitly say that Israel committed attacks against civilian Lebanese targets, and not leave it for the reader to make the conclusion from the guardian report. And again, it must be obvious to the reader that those rockets were launched as a response to a massive Israeli attack, you can not point facts against Hezbollah and then ask the reader to make implicit conclusions. ( Imad marie ( talk) 18:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
GHcool, Please justify why you removed the sentence: "in which Hezbollah said those attacks were retaliation for Israel's killing of civilians and destruction of Lebanese infrastructure". ( Imad marie ( talk) 05:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
So how are we going to remove the page protection now? ( Imad marie ( talk) 10:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
GHcool, are we going to have an edit war again? the source says: "Israeli forces blockaded Lebanese ports and bombed runways at Beirut airport yesterday in a series of fierce reprisal attacks that Lebanese officials say have killed 55 civilians." so what is your point exactly? I don't understand. ( Imad marie ( talk) 06:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC))
Since multiple editors are edit warring, I have protected the page. Please consider resolving disputes by seeking consensus here instead. -- slakr\ talk / 22:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, about your edit here, I read the article you referenced and I didn't find anything that says that "Hezbollah abducted and later murdered 3 Israeli soldiers", please point me out to any information I have missed. ( Imad marie ( talk) 10:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
Shamir1 removed
“ | In a 2004 article, Dennis Ross, the Middle East envoy under the first Bush and Clinton administrations, was cited as saying that Hezbollah's resistance to the Israeli occupation, unlike its past activities aimed at Western targets, is not terrorism and that the US included Hezbollah on its list of terrorist groups for Hezbollah's past activities, not for its ongoing resistance to Israel. [1] | ” |
with the edit summary "misrep of source, in addition the editorial cites a source which cites a source which cites Christopher Ross responsible for that position". But the source [1] says,
“ | Dennis Ross, the Middle East envoy under the first Bush and Clinton administrations, has stated that Hezbollah's resistance to the Israeli occupation, unlike its past activities aimed at Western targets, is not terrorism. | ” |
And in a footnote to that statement,
“ | Ross stated in the daily as-Safir that the US included Hezbollah on its list of terrorist groups for Hezbollah's past activities, not for its ongoing resistance to Israel. | ” |
So what gives?? < eleland/ talk edits> 18:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding your revert of the Hezbollah article, besides the fact that I am already skeptical of a tertiary source that is an editorial and does not use quotations, the cited source cites this source. And that source cites this, which says that Christopher Ross made those comments. :::-- Shamir1 19:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The NYBooks source accurately quotes the Hajjar source (which is available at Google Books), but I'm still a little skeptical that the Hajjar source accurately quotes the as-Safir source because I don't think that Dennis Ross would ever say that Hezbollah's targetting of Israeli civilians does not amount to terrorism. Unfortunately, I do not know how to read Arabic and so I cannot check the as-Safir website myself. Could someone who knows Arabic find the article cited in Hajjar's book: "Ross: The Resistance of Hizballah Is Not Terrorism," March 23, 2002? -- GHcool 23:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Please consider WP:SIZE. It's not an absolute rule, but perhaps some material should be split into separate articles. In addition to being more attractive to more readers, a more concise article reduces the amount of discussion needed to achieve consensus, especially on controversial topics as this one is. Unimaginative Username 06:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Do you agree with nominating the article in Wikipedia:Peer review. I think this article is going to be an FA article.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 16:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated this article for peer review in last week. But just it has received suggestions which were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program. Please be bold and write your ideas and suggestions here.-- Seyyed( t- c) 03:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In some cases I'm not satisfied with the suggestions and we should discuss about them.
It looks like we need to go through all references again, and replace links with the Cite templates. This is a potential FA failure point under criteria 2c. mceder ( u t c) 13:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In attempting to copy-edit this article, have noticed various spellings of the organization. It's often difficult to transliterate other alphabets (Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Cyrillic, etc.) into English, but if the article is entitled, "Hezbollah", then for consistency, it should be spelled that way throughout. Please keep this in mind when making edits! Thank you, Unimaginative Username 06:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SJP, sounds like a good plan! Please do so if you can. I'm just here to copy-edit and have little personal knowledge of the topic, spellings, sources, etc. Thanks, Unimaginative Username 01:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
While copy-editing, noticed this statement: "The US estimates that Iran has been giving Hezbollah about US$60-100 million per year in financial assistance, but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America." However, the article that is cited appears to verify only the estimated $60-100 million, but not the portion of the statement about this figure declining as South American funding rose. I'm not going to change this, but if there is a source for the decline in Iranian funding, please provide; else, perhaps the South American funding should be mentioned without any connection to an Iranian reduction. Unimaginative Username 07:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Barakat is co-owner of Galeria Page, one of Ciudad del Este's biggest shopping malls, which intelligence sources said they believe he has used as a front for raising funds and recruiting volunteers for Hezbollah.
Sounds good... thanks. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 07:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Copy-edit is complete. The only other content issue I noted (besides the above) was that there is still a tag (challenge) in the section on Russia's position on Hezbollah. Would suggest that a consensus be reached there before FAR. Good luck with FA! Unimaginative Username 07:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
That was my impression, but having not done any research on this topic, only copy-editing it, I felt that the change should be made only by editors involved with this article. I agree with the two posts above, and do think it reads more clearly and flows better now. Regards, Unimaginative Username ( talk) 07:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
In copy-editing this article, I've become rather interested in it and in its progress to FA. I'm at WP only intermittently, but if you feel that I could be of any further assistance in this area, please feel free to place a message on my talk page. Will respond when able. Peace, Unimaginative Username ( talk) 05:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind comments. I have not done any research on this topic, and so cannot contribute as far as content. I meant that when you resolve the content issues and get it to a stable version with consensus, I would be happy to copy-edit again. As for helping with the wiki-stress of a controversial article, I am not an admin, and I am not sure that it would be proper to act as some sort of unofficial moderator. But as a copy-editor, I like to see all WP articles well-written, in a fair and balanced manner. If there is something specific I could do, let me know. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 05:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm no expert on Hezbollah, but I can immediately see four five significant problems with the article (only the last fourth of which is under consideration):
1) Hezbollah supporters claim it has now defeated Israel 5 times. We may not accept the claims, but we need to report them properly ( "Conflict against Israel" in the article doesn't do it). Here's how a March 07 Counterpunch article lists these victories: 1) The April 30, 1985 Israel withdrawal ... direct result of military pressure from a new organization ... calling itself Hezbollah. 2) July 1993. Israel's "operation accountability". ... UN counted 1,224 air raids and more than 28,000 US shells fired into Lebanon by Israel ... Hezbollah fired Katusha rockets for 10 hours into Galilee settlements ... Israel had enough and contacted Washington to arrange a ceasefire. 3) April 11, 1996 Israel's 'Operation Grapes of Wrath'. ... Hezbollah's victory cost Shimon Peres ... 1996 Israeli election. 4) May 24, 2000. ... abandoning its planned phased withdrawal as well as its agents, the South Lebanon's Army. 5) Hezbollah's claimed (and widely accepted) victory in 2006 July.
2) Hezbollah tries not to punish the many Lebanese who have collaborated. Hezbollah scores mightily with this tactic, which is vital to understanding it's relative success. (Bush and Olmert are alleged to want another Civil War in Lebanon, seeking out and arming small factions - another side of the same coin? - also needs mentioning).
3) There is no mention that the founders of Israel always intended to seize the south of Lebanon. David Ben-Gurion in 1937 wanted the northern border of Israel to be with a new Christian state (while boasting of transfers already carried out). His political opponents, Begin, Shamir etc wanted the whole of Lebanon and much more. It took the Lebanese at least 45 years (since before their state existed until 1982) to wake up to the threat they were and are under, and Hezbollah was and is the first real indication of it. (Dayan was talking of the take-over of Lebanon in 1955 according to Sharett's diaries).-- Seyyed( t- c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
4) We quote the "1985 Hezbollah manifesto" as saying: "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated." a) The statement in question is not a manifesto (see reasons above). b) Even if this was the manifesto, to use a translation with "obliterate" is needlessly alarming - we have lots of examples of immigrant controlled (and bitterly resented) governments collapsing without too much drama. We're publishing the propaganda of one side with these weasel words. PR talk 11:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
5) No mention that the Palestinians are Sunni, the opposite of Hezbollah and al-Qaeda and (according to Zarqawi referenced several times) their sworn enemy. Careful work is needed if people are to have a chance of "understanding" the subject. PR talk 17:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
These are my idea about 5 points which PR has mentioned:
-- Seyyed( t- c) 12:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, hello again. Didn't intend to become involved in content issues, but in reviewing, saw this statement: " But until such a settlement is reached, he said that he would continue to encourage Palestinian suicide bombers." I read the article that is cited as a source for this statement, a 2003 interview with Nasrallah. There is no such quote. The interviewer says of Nasrallah, "In his speeches to the faithful, his language is laced with ... rationalizations for suicide bombings. ". "Rationalization" is not quite the same degree as actively "encouraging". I didn't see anything in this interview in which Nasrallah encourages suicide bombings until there is a Palestinian state; the other parts of this section indicates that he feels such a settlement is a Palestinian matter. Unless someone sees something else in the interview that I missed, or has other sources, it seems that this statement should be removed, as misrepresenting Nasrallah's position. Perhaps changed to, "However, Nasrallah has rationalized suicide bombing attacks." That is the most NPOV way that I could describe what was in this 2003 interview. Unimaginative Username ( talk) 06:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
This discussion started briefly during the Peer Review, but I moved it here the PR was nearly at its end.
First, I am opposed to the "Background" section in the article. In its current state, it's vague, poorly written and with no clear goal to what this section precisely describes. Does it mean "Background to Hezbollah"? A rather odd terminology since we're not talking about an event or a war. "Background" might mean "Origins of Hezbollah", but if it was true it would've belonged to a "History" section. Maybe it provides some insights to better understand Hezbollah (?), but I don't see how Hezbollah is so complex so a reader won't understand it. Anywyay, I don't understand the need for this section, unless you clearly define its objective.
Second, why there is no "History" section like any article on an entity or organization? You are claiming that the article is too complex, but it's not a valid objection. This article fails to present in a concise, clear and easy-to-find way a summary of the history of Hezbollah, a piece of information any reader doing a research will need. If you're saying that the article is too long, the problem comes from the other sections or the whole organization of the article. If you're saying that it's too complex and controversial, there exist many good summaries about Hezbollah (check CrisisGroup, and see the last Lebanon report). Finally, a "History" section is a standard in all Wikipedia article, and I don't see why should this article should be treated differently.
Anyway, as I said, this article is remarkably written in a neutral way and it deserves to reach FA status. CG ( talk) 18:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I realize that a great amount of time has been spent debating and working on this article to reach a consensus, most of which I have not read, I see a problem in the language of at least the lead. Namely: "Hezbollah's three main goals" ... "Hezbollah has realized that the goal of ..." "Hezbollah wishes for the destruction of Israel,..."
We don't know what Hezbollah's goals or wishes are. What we know what Hezbollah has said, and what some claim it has done. This is not at all a minor point since in at least one country (USA), Hezbollah is considered the #2 terrorist enemy (in terms of civilians and off-duty soliders of that country killed) next to al-Qaeda. It is very common for books that mention Hezbollah (at least ones published in the USA) to describe it as the perpetrator of the bombings of both the US embassies and of Multinational Peacekeeping Force barracks, without any caveat, i.e. they state it as a fact on which there is no debate worth mentioning. Yet Hezbollah denies the charge. So i put it to you that it is important to use wording in the article consistant with what is known. We should change the wording on this lead and probably in the rest of the story to reflect that.
Proposed change:
literally " party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon. It follows an Islamist Shi'a ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran. [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
In addition the lead should say that Hezbollah is now the only armed non-governmental group in Lebanon.
-- BoogaLouie ( talk) 17:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a change here [3]. This was what the first source says. The second one was about Iran's admission of helping Hezbollah from an Israeli newspaper, so I added a note that a third perspective source(like UN) or an Iranian source is required for this. Cheers, -- Be happy!! ( talk) 07:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a very serious allegation, and should not just be thrown around, and should be very properly sourced if accompanied by the sentence "Hizballah is openly anti-Semitic", which is obvious POV and original research. As it is now, all this article should say is that he has been quoted by the Lebanese newspaper the Daily Star for saying so and so, but nowhere else.
As for the other examples, the statement about going back to Germany is hardly anti-Semitic, and there is no proof that Hizballah was even involved in the Argentina bombing. Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hardly anti-Jewish. Anyhow, it's not about whether you or I believe the statement is racist or anti-Semitic, it's about whether we have reliable sources for it being so or not. There are none. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, why did you remove this fact? "which a group called Islamic Jihad took responsibility for. " Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Or are you referring to another discussion? If not, I'm afraid I'll have to revert your edits. Funkynusayri ( talk) 22:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
More importantly, wouldn't it be pretty biased to leave the "Islam and antisemitism" category in the article, when the basis for this is a disputed quote? Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with your claim that the Nasrallah quote is disputed by "one person in the world", though I of course realise that it is not to be taken literally, but for the sake of others who might read what we write, Glass cites both the publisher and the managing editor of the Daily Star (two more persons, representing the entire newspaper) as questioning the intentions of the man who wrote the article, which all other sources mentioning the incident seem to have cited it from, and a Hizballah spokesperson (a fourth, representing the entire organisation).
The important thing here is of course that the newspaper itself, not just Glass, have serious doubts in the validity of the quotes. That the quote has been cited by others as well is irrelevant, as these all seem to use that exact article in the Daily Star as source for this! That's pretty extraordinary, and really undermines the credibility of the quote.
However, I of course agree that if the quote was true, and if Hizballah was behind the Argentina bombings, then the organisation is anti-Semitic, and should be categorised as such. The problem is just that these are allegations, not facts, so having this article categorised as it is would be heavy POV by any standards. It is practically libel.
As for the destruction of Israel as a state, well, how is this inherently anti-Semitic? Hizballah does not oppose a Jewish state, it simply opposes a Jewish state in the region it presently exists in, not due to the fact that the inhabitants are Jews, but due to the fact that they (Hizballah) believe the land has been wrongfully acquired by Jews. Heck, they even endorse the idea that Jews should live among them, provided that they are "indigenous", if I interpret their statement correctly. Even saying the organisation is anti-Ashkenazic would be quite a stretch.
What I just said might seem euphemistic to some, but I do not know of anything that proves the case to be anything else.
Also, could you explain to me why this [12] had to be removed? The info I added is straight from the source, very important to understanding how severe the critique of the quote is, and is very relevant. Removing "publisher and managing editor" and substituting it with "the editors" would downplay the significance of the critique considerably. I have reworded it considerably in my last revision though.
Furthermore, it was not even mentioned in the previous version that the quote had been published in the Daily Star. The article simply said "citing other published accounts of the speech that had no reference to the anti-Semitic comment, and statements by the Star's editors that questioned both the translation and the "agenda of the translator."
The newspaper was mentioned in a way that would imply that it had been introduced previously in the article, which it hadn't. Funkynusayri ( talk) 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
1: Glass cites the editor-in-chief and managing editor of the Daily Star, as well as a Hizballlah spokesperson. Unless he's lying, this accounts for several, highly important sources. If you want to prove me wrong, provide me with a link to where this was previously discussed, and where it ended in favour of your conclusion.
2: Yet we give undue weight to a quote which has been published independently in only one newspaper (I'll email the author of the article in the NYT about their source for it if necessary, which is most likely The Daily Star, yet again), we even use that one, questionable quote as basis for labeling en entire organisation as anti-Semitic. All I have added was this "and statements by the editor-in-chief of the Lebanese newspaper The Daily Star which published the quotes".
Could you please explain to me why this section, straight from the source, gives undue weight to the article? My additions are simple: I provide a link to the Daily Star, explain that the quotes were published there, and explain that it was the editor in chief, not just any editor of the newspaper who criticized the quote.
I sure respect the outcome of the previous discussion (though the fact that concensus was reached there wasn't enough to even keep the Glass critique in the article for some reason), I'm even repeating George's own arguments, which you agreed with: "I think it's worth noting which staff members questioned the translation (they were the editors, Chayban's bosses, not his peers, or the company's janitorial crew)."
You replied: "Fine."
Could you explain to me why the word "editors" is more appropriate than "editor-in-chief", when it clearly downplays the level of authority of the criticisers? Could you also explain to me why it is not even explained that the Daily Star was the newspaper which published the quotes? All this highly important information is in the source, yet you disapprove of the inclusion of it.
3: I can only repeat what I've already said twice, Hizballah endorsed the notion that Jews should live among Muslims, in the Middle East, just not in their own state. This analogy "That's like saying that Hitler would not oppose a Jewish population so long as it isn't in Europe" is thus baseless as result.
Jews live in Europe and the US, yet they do not have their own state in Europe or the US. So unless a Jewish state is necessary for the survival of all Jews (which I doubt the far majority of the world's Jews, who do not even live in Israel, believe), wanting to destroy or dismantle such a state is not anti-Semitic. Unless this desire is rooted in hate for Jews as a people of course. That does not seem to be the provable case for Hizballah. Funkynusayri ( talk) 14:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
To make the sources apply to the organisation itself is original research. Furthermore, the reason why the station was blocked is explained here: [17]
"The court cited a 23 November broadcast in which a speaker accused Israel of deliberately disseminating Aids in Arab nations."
Excuse me if I hurt the feelings of anyone by saying that I'm unable to detect the anti-Semitic content in that statement. The accusation is ridiculous, but nowhere are Jews or Judaism attacked.
As for this source [18], that is merely one POV, and should be discussed in the article. It isn't reason enough to label an entire organisation anti-Semitic on a neutral encyclopedia though. From that link:
"To most Israelis, and, indeed, to most Jews, the belief that Israel should be destroyed is itself a kind of anti-Semitism."
Yes, but is that a universal belief? No. I have already explained the reason for that in my message above.
If there was a category called "Organisations accused of being anti-Semitic", I would not disapprove of this article being tagged with it. But there isn't. You've made me wonder about one thing; if Hizballah really was as vehemently anti-Semitic as you think, why does the organisation then always deny that it is? What would it gain? After all, it seems that everyone else thinks they are anti-Semites regardless of what they say. So what is their motivation for denying it, and what do they have to lose if they don't? Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
1: Yes, we can conclude that, therefore it is original research.
2: Well, I see no source there specifically stating Hizbollah is an anti-Semitic organisation, and the accusation is the POV of only one person in the world.
3: That's one POV mainly held by pro-Israelis, of course, I've already explained numerous times why it might not be shared by other, even neutral, factions.
4: Again, they endorse Jewish/Muslim coexistence in the Middle East, but oppose a Jewish state there. I have yet to hear a good argument for that being an example of anti-Semitism. Could you give me one? Funkynusayri ( talk) 04:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to give the Arab world's perspective, Hezbollah's own statements, and Israel's and the Western world's statements all a voice in this article; we should not treat any of their statements in a matter of fact way, though. Wikipedia is opposed to usage of terms like "terrorist organization" for this very reason; a terrorist is a POV word. The bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima could be considered a terrorist attack, for example, since it specifically targeted civilians (regardless of whether or not one thinks that it was necessary to end WWII).
The article's categorization should be based on a reliable secondary source that clearly states Hezbollah is anti-Semitic. While it would be accurate to say Hezbollah wants the state of Israel to be destroyed, that cannot be interpreted as anti-Semitism. Hezbollah also says, from their own original doctrine, that they want "to expel Americans, the French and their allies (sic) definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity" on their land. Hezbollah considers Israel to be a foreign, colonialist element that has been imposed on the Levant. That's their POV. I don't think that necessarily makes them anti-Semitic, at least on the surface. IMO, to categorize Hezbollah as anti-Semitic seems like endorsing a POV and a little bit presumptuous, especially when one considers the fact that this is an issue of debate between two POVs. They certainly are anti-Zionist, but as I said, you don't have to hate Jews to oppose the creation of Israel; even the United Nations was anti-Zionist at one point. I would propose expanding an explanation for whether or not they are anti-Semitic in this article in a way that does not cater to either point of view (Israeli or Hezbollahi), and remove the categorization, also, since it is clearly a contentious issue. This would allow readers to decide for themselves. - Rosywounds ( talk) 17:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Hezbollah, in their own words, wants to remove any entity in the Middle East that they deem foreign or colonialist. This was and still is not limited to Israelis. I'm not sure if destruction was the exact words that Hezbollah used, but if their rhetoric is in line with the Iranian government's, then it is unlikely that they ever made reference to Israel as a state or Jews as a people; Iran's government always refers to the "Zionist regime," "Zionist entity," or the "Regime in Jerusalem" (speaking about the Israeli government). Even if we assume that Hezbollah referred to Israel as the state of Israel, which seems out of character, you have again associated Zionism and Judaism and have implied that Judaism and Zionism are synonymous. To demand for the destruction of Hezbollah isn't any more Islamophobic than to demand for the destruction of Israel is anti-Semitic or to demand for the destruction of Italy is anti-Catholic, unless a context is given through which such an assumption can be made. In this case, there is no context; this is simply your own original research. As for the AIDS comment, I believe it went something like this "...Zionist attempts to transmit dangerous diseases like AIDS through exports to Arab countries." I suppose that it is true that they use traditional anti-Semitic statements born in Europe originally (e.g. Blood libel, well poisoning) and simply switch "Jew" to "Zionist." IMO, it is still too contentious (and presumptuous) to include the category based on how we interpret it, though. We don't know, for example, whether or not Hezbollah would make such parallel statements if a state of Israel didn't exist, do we? It would be entirely speculation. But I'm not about to fight over this anymore, since it's clearly going to go no where. - Rosywounds ( talk) 07:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The better analogy would be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_paul#Newsletter_controversy
I don't see Ron Paul in a "Racists" category or similar, simply because it would be POV. Having this article in the category in question is nothing but POV and OR.
Applying the European concept of "well poisoning" to Hizballah propaganda while attributing it to their "anti-Semitism" is misleading and POV anyway, Hizballah publishes negative propaganda about Israel because Israel is a state which is hostile to Lebanon and Hizballah itself, not because Israelis are Jews. Likewise, Hizballah publishes negative propaganda about Saudi Arabia, not because it is hostile to Arabs, but because the Saudis are hostile towards Hizballah.
Following your logic (POV), the mere fact that Hizballah is in conflict with Israel, and the inevitable consequences of this, makes it "anti-Semitic".
I could probably find more sources stating that Hizballah is a resistance movement than an anti-Semitic one, but I won't categorise this article as such, because I know it would be POV.
So again, there is no valid rationale for keeping the category here, other than pure POV. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see any reasons why any of these terms are synonyms. At least not neutral ones
As for the quote, we've already discussed it quite a lot of times now, and for all I'm concerned, it has been debunked as a myth. Check the Charles Glass link. Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Rosywounds, if I attacked Saudiarabia or Italy tomorrow, it sure as hell wouldn't mean that I like Saudiarabs or Italians (never mind Islam or Catholicism; that's beside the point, and an Ignoratio elenchi). Likewise, it's the same case if I attacked Israel; I wouldn't like Jews. Contrary to popular belief, and contrary to how you're trying to misrepresent the case, Jews are not only a religious group, but they are also, an ethnic group, and arguably also a unique race. Of course there are converts to Judaism, but they don't count because they are few and not even allowed in Orthodox Judaism. That said, your Italy and Saudiarabia parallel doesn't hold any water in this case. If I or anyone else attacked Israel tomorrow, it would be, because hatred of Jews (or at least antipathy) is involved in the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EliasAlucard ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the quote, we've already discussed it quite a lot of times now, and for all I'm concerned, it has been debunked as a myth. Check the Charles Glass link. — Well okay then, how about this quote? “If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli.” — Hassan Nasrallah. Has this one been debunked as a myth too? Clearly, the guy is anti-Jewish (notice, I do not use the neologism "antisemite"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by EliasAlucard ( talk • contribs) 12:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
And GH, again, it's up to POV. So I'll respond with POV:
1: Hizballah wants to destroy a hostile state called Israel which has attacked Lebanon plenty of times, still violates its airspace, and, according to some, occupies part of Lebanon. Israel is thus an enemy state. Many of Israel's citizens happen to be Jews (a minority of the Jews of the world), but that is not the reason why Hizballah is at conflict with the country.
Yet again, you ignore the Nasrallah quote where he states that he endorses the notion that Jews should live safely among Muslims in the Middle East, just not in their own state. Could you please explain how that is anti-Semitic?
2: Israel is an enemy state to them for reasons already stated, propaganda against enemy states and their allies in times of war isn't exactly out of the ordinary. This is a big contrast to the European anti-Semitism, which was rooted in mere racism.
3: Again, simply war-time propaganda.
4-5-6: Accusations. Could be true, could not be true. We are not to take sides, but to simply mention the allegations.
The evidence for Hizballah being anti-Semitic is generated by POV and OR. Funkynusayri ( talk) 19:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
According to Hizballah and many others, Israel has not pulled out of Lebanon completely, due to the continuous occupation of the Shebaa Farms. Israel also continues to violate Lebanese airspace, and still holds Lebanese prisoners. Therefore, the state of Lebanon itself, as well as Hizbollah, believes Israel is a hostile nation. Lebanon is still officially at war with Israel.
2:See point one.
3:According to Hizballah, there are Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists outside Israel who support Israel against Hizballah and other Arabs through funding and lobbying. This is pretty much a fact, though they might exaggerate the extent of it, but again, that's how propaganda works. The propaganda does not attack all Jews for what they are, but attacks the Jews who directly supports Israel politically and economically.
4:Notice that the text says the threshold of inclusion.
No one is against these allegations being mentioned, thoroughly sourced and discussed, the problem is that this article should not take sides in the conflict, which is what you are advocating by categorising it in a specific way. It is verifiable that Hizballah is anti-Semitic according to a POV, not that it is anti-Semitic. The difference is huge.
Yet again, I can probably find reliable sources arguing that Hizballah is a "resistance movement", therefore it can be mentioned in the article that this POV is held by some, but I do not put the article in a "resistance movements" category here on Wikipedia, as that is only a POV. Funkynusayri ( talk) 20:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Again,
1:POV.
2:POV.
3:POV.
4:POV.
If POV is to be taken as fact, let's show both sides of the conflict, and categorise Hizballah as a "resistance movment". That's the consequence.
Or let's not, and stay neutral. Funkynusayri ( talk) 00:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I really can't imagine how could Muslims and Arabs particularly be accused of Anti-semitism. Everybody who thinks like this is ignorant. Why? Simply thanks to two reasons. First, the present Jews who claimed the land of Palestine aren't Hebrews. Second because Arabs are descendant from Ismael the son of Abraham so they are cousins of the Hebrews, and so, they Semites at the same scale of Hebrews and more. Arabs memorized the genealogy of their tribes since the beginning of Islam and also before, and it simple to make the genealogical tree of an Arab going back to Abraham. As for the Jews, they are not smite though their language is indeed. Last but not least, Semites have been on the land of Palestine centuries before the Exodus: Jebusean, Moabite, Ammonitea and others... So everyone who got these small historical truths can't say Hezbollah is anti-semitic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.254.24.213 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The arabic language is semitic, the arabic people are semitic, so if you accuse arabs of being anti semitic, you are also accusing them of being anti arab. unless hezbollah has persian memebers then it could be anti semitic, no wait it cant because they support shiite arabs too. RestoreTheEmpireSociety ( talk) 23:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, the content I removed is biased, if you are going to say that "Hezbollah was responsible for thousands of Katyusha rocket attacks against Israeli civilian towns and cities in northern Israel." then you also need to say that Israeli jets targeted Lebanese civilians in southern Lebanon. It's better to Remove both sentences in my opinion, I just put the casualties summary at the end of the paragraph. ( Imad marie ( talk) 08:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC))
The line a neutral statement of fact complying with all Wikipedia guidelines. Lebanese death statistics are an important factor in the 2006 Lebanon War, and are referenced in that article, but they are tangental to the topic of Hezbollah. By Imad marie's faulty logic, we should add statistics for German casualties of World War II in the Nazi Party article for "balance." -- GHcool ( talk) 17:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, please justify your last revert. ( Imad marie ( talk) 07:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
We can say something like: "Hezbollah managed to launch thousands of Katyusha rockets against targets in northern Israel in retaliation to the Israeli massive air attack", something like that. But I'm not sure if we can find a reference that says the word "retaliation". In my opinion there is no need to use the word "civilian" at this point. ( Imad marie ( talk) 17:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
If you are going to use the word "civilian" then you have to explicitly say that Israel committed attacks against civilian Lebanese targets, and not leave it for the reader to make the conclusion from the guardian report. And again, it must be obvious to the reader that those rockets were launched as a response to a massive Israeli attack, you can not point facts against Hezbollah and then ask the reader to make implicit conclusions. ( Imad marie ( talk) 18:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
GHcool, Please justify why you removed the sentence: "in which Hezbollah said those attacks were retaliation for Israel's killing of civilians and destruction of Lebanese infrastructure". ( Imad marie ( talk) 05:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
So how are we going to remove the page protection now? ( Imad marie ( talk) 10:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
GHcool, are we going to have an edit war again? the source says: "Israeli forces blockaded Lebanese ports and bombed runways at Beirut airport yesterday in a series of fierce reprisal attacks that Lebanese officials say have killed 55 civilians." so what is your point exactly? I don't understand. ( Imad marie ( talk) 06:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC))
Since multiple editors are edit warring, I have protected the page. Please consider resolving disputes by seeking consensus here instead. -- slakr\ talk / 22:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
GHcool, about your edit here, I read the article you referenced and I didn't find anything that says that "Hezbollah abducted and later murdered 3 Israeli soldiers", please point me out to any information I have missed. ( Imad marie ( talk) 10:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC))
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