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The title 'Heruliis' is wrong and should be changed to 'Heruls' or/and 'Eruli'. This people is usually called Heruls in the literature, but the Latin name Eruli is also widely used, while the form 'Heruliis' is a wrong mixture of the two names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.204.69.196 ( talk) 13:15, June 2, 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following, since I couldn't confirm it, and it was questioned in the past. If there are any sources for this, please let me know.
<!--is the following more than fantasy?-->Organized as "wolf-packs", each pack of no more than a dozen or so was lead by two older males, an alpha- and beta-wolf. Younger men (aged approximately 15-21) comprised the retinue of the two wolf-leaders. After their summer-long (from April 31 to October 31) training in military, genealogy, cultic practice, sexuality, and other items necessary to social order, the youths were initiated into full manhood when they had killed another man in battle, or had killed a wild boar or large bear in the hunt. Exclusively foot-soldiers, the Heruli were a nomadic tribe who used horses only for moving their camps. A particularly frightening tactic of the Heruli which amazed the Romans, was that they were so fast on foot that they would team up with a horse-riding warrior, hang on to the mane of the horse with their left hand, wield their swords with their right hand, and charge into battle, running as fast as the horse directly into the fray. Several of these names also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Uha ("Big One"), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous").
Quadell (talk) 19:09, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user recently deleted a lot of text without explaining why. I have no idea if the deleted text was accurate or inaccurate, but if anyone knows more than I do, please, fill me in. I'm not sure if the deletions should be reverted or not. Quadell (talk) 00:03, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
The following statement apparently offends Anonymous User:213.219.53.82 who has repeatedly suppressed it:
Wetman 15:47, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have several times tried to improve the Heruli article by deleting speculative and outdated information about their supposed Scandinavian origins, their mastery of runes and their battle tactics. The first assertation is impossible to demonstrate on the basis of the available sources and should not be stated so firmly as some people seem to wish. They may have come from Scandinavia or northern Germany, but the fact is that we have no way of knowing. The assertation that the Heruls were rune masters who formed the elite of Scandinavia and that the Scandinavian title Jarl is derived from their name is simply wrong. The title Jarl is derived from an IE word for 'free man' and there is no evidence that the Heruls in south east Europe ever used runes. Finally, we know nothing about their battle tactics. Procopius, reports that the Heruls who served in the Roman army were typically employed as lightly armed infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.53.82 ( talk) 13:05, November 9, 2004 (UTC)
One person has written an excellent article on the Heruls (14.11.04) (at least much better than what was there), which Wiglaf seems to have deleted or replaced by the old artilce, which is really quite bad. Wiglaf seems to be very insistent on his views. Why is that? The modern literature really shows that a Scandinavian origin of the Heruls cannot be postulated on the basis of the historical sources. I would like to see the new article of 14.11 on the Wikipedia, which is accurate and balanced. Thanks Claudia:-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.53.82 ( talk) 05:59, November 15, 2004 (UTC)
This text is a slender personal fantasy, not worthy of Wikipedia: Plinius and Tacitus (circa 95 CE) both mention Suebian tribes called the Harii or Hirri. That the Harii and the Heruli are basically synonymous is strongly evidenced by the fact that in the 500s when Salinga, daughter of the last Heruli king Rhodoulph (Honor-Wolf?), married Wacho, king of the Lombards, as his third polygynous wife, she named her son by him Walt-Hari - modern Walter - "ruler of the Hari/marauders". See both Prokopios and Paulus Diaconus for this episode. Also note that the common name Harold is identical as well, from Hari-Walt.) I have not removed it, however, as interfering in this article seems hopeless. But why not an article Harii? -- Wetman 21:01, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article (currently at 31KB) is a bit overlong and quite frankly I fail to see the value of the list of Runic inscriptions attributed to the Heruli. That material should either be deleted or set out into a seperate article if it truly is worthy of being included in an encyclopedia. -- 165.247.182.182 01:39, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I won't discuss the rest of the article, but this section is in my view substandard. First, it is far too speculative. The meaning of the noun erilaz is uncertain. There is no consensus on it's meaning or ethymology, though there is some small agreement that it designs one in knowledge of runes. I myself would be very interested to know some more of "the strongest academic evidence to date" of it meaning marauder and even more so in how it connects with a hypothetical wolf-warrior brotherhood. -- Asdfgl 17:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Basing any hypothesis on the element harjaz in personal names is ridiculous. It was a common element in Germanic personal names, and I strongly doubt that people such as Ohthere had any connection with either the Harii nor the Heruli. Here is a link [3] to an article on Scandinavian personal names, for anyone who is interested in the use of the name harjaz.-- Wiglaf 15:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The text below seems to have been deleted by an anon on June 8th of last year, without explanation or discussion on the talk page. Fortunately some of it was still in Google so I could trace it. It seems to be well referenced and annotated. Is there any reason why I should not restore it?
--Homosexuality of the Heruli--
According to Procopius, bishop of Caesaria, the Heruli practiced a warrior-based, ritual homosexuality. In his De Bello Gothico, Prokopios is scandalized by the fact that "kai mixeis ouch hosias telousin, allas te kai andron" (Greek), or "and they have sex contrary to the ends of divine law, even with men" (VI. xiv. 36). Procopius does not elaborate upon this brief statement. However, he also noted that the young squires of the "Erouloi" (Greek for Heruli) go into battle without even a shield to protect themselves; once proven in battle, their Heruli masters then permitted them to carry one in battle, signifying their entrance into full manhood. Historian of homosexuality, David Greenberg, believes that in this passage, Prokopios implied that the homosexuality practiced by the Heruli was ritualistic and initiatory in nature, for "pederasty was practiced in connection with the transition from youth to manhood" in the early Germanic "men's societies (Männerbünder)" as well as being common to all Indo-European cultures. Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5). (See Greenberg's The Construction of Homosexuality, 1988, p. 243.)
As Russian scholar Askold Ivancik (see section above) notes, "The formula of the Indo-European law, according to which the murderer 'became a wolf', is certainly linked to these notions [of heroic youthful initiants being considered dogs or wolves]. This formula was conserved in several Indo-European traditions, notably the Hittite, Germanic, and Indo-Iranian. It has given birth to a new sense, 'criminal, outlaw', attributed to the word 'wolf'. The notions of man-wolves and homosexuality, very prevalent in masculine societies, may explain the usual comparison in the Greek tradition between the 'erastes' [active homosexual lover] and the wolf." ("Les Guerriers-chiens", p. 313)
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
The Weerdinge bog bodies of the Netherlands, who were found wrapped in each other's arms, were initially thought to have been a 2,000 year old heterosexual couple. However, both adult bodies are bearded so testing was recently performed and conclusively showed that the two intimates were actually both male. DNA testing by Dr. Carney Matheson's team at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada has proven that the two men were not closely genetically related maternally or paternally, so the two men are not brothers, as some scholars have proposed. See http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/weerdingemen.html for a fuller treatment of these bog bodies. While the two intimates cannot conclusively be proved to have been Harji/Heruli, circumstantial evidence indicates it is quite possible. That two adult males (one apparently somewhat younger and smaller than the other) were carefully laid to rest by local people in a marsh in an intimate embrace for eternity in ancient Germania does reflect many cultural aspects consistent with those of the Heruli.
Haiduc 01:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The following text was deleted by me. Explanations in which ancient names appear to have a "homosexual innuendo" have no purpose in a encyclopdia
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Furthermore I deleted the reference to the weerdinge peatbodies since they bear no relevance to the Heruli. If you want to have an article on homosexuality amongst barbarian european tribes start a seperate article. I also deleted reference to Askold Ivancik. Again, start a seperate article.
Furthermore I deleted this.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
and this
Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5).
Fantasy. And a very bad one, I might add. Seems apologetic to pederasts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelayo 2006 ( talk • contribs) 14:11, March 22, 2006 (UTC)
After rereading it seems to me this should be rewritten as a general article on what Procopius and other mention about the Heruls. If this is not done we better delete the same-sex paragraph — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelayo 2006 ( talk • contribs) 08:23, March 23, 2006 (UTC)
Is not Moravia eastern Bohemia while Belgrade is much father south (not near) in modern Serbia?
Was there an ancient Moravia that is different from the modern Moravia?
If so the link is wrong as well.
darylkohlhoff 71.87.118.170 11:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Wouldn't it be wise to add references to these phrases, because all looked up some of books on this question and it is mostly written that it is hard to identify herulis with any nation. On that what concerns the language that they spoke there is only one source left this is the Lords prayer of herulis and by linguistical researches the most probable nation to associate with are Balts (reference of norvegr book by Rackus): The Heruli (spelled variously in Latin and Greek) were a nomadic Germanic people, who were subjugated by the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Byzantines in the 3rd to 5th centuries. The name is related to earl (see erilaz) and was probably an honorific military title. One of the Heruli, Odoacer, deposed the last Western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustus.
Cheers Domas --Ceckauskas Dominykas 21:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceckauskas Dominykas ( talk • contribs)
I stumbled onto this page by accident, but I would nevertheless advise anyone who wants to try to get closer to the truth, to above all, learn BASICS! Learn what indogermanic or indoeuropean means, learn at least the names of at least the most important tribes and their wanderings. Try to understand the timespans and think. Learn about the Hallstattkultur, learn about Celtic origins and learn geography! Learn the difference between German and Germanic, learn who the Teutonen were and the difference to Teutonic, .... Basically learn, learn, learn! You still won't know everything, you'll probably despair of ever knowing "the truth" and settle for the more modest goal of glimpsing a small part of it, but you will recognise embarrassing nonsense much more easily and you will be more cautious before making assertions that prove only your own lack of knowledge. When I think about how many people look things up on Wikipedia and take what they read as proven facts, it is frightening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.200.50 ( talk) 22:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
The 6th century (and later) sources have been well studied and they speak to something. When people from one culture write about another, they may have all manner of biases (and incomplete material). It is also the case that people inside a culture can have biases and incomplete material. This does not mean that we are to ignore it all. If the Herulis are mentioned in Roman literature (and they are), and this literature ( as well as other literature about the Heruli ) have been studied by scholars and published in a scholarly manner since then (as this subject occupies almost an entire volume of a 1720 work by Laurence Echard, who translated and annotated from the original Latin texts). Echard knows how to contextualize his ancient sources, he's a gem. He's available electronically from various college libraries. This article should certainly start with him - every other historian does.--LeValley 06:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeValley ( talk • contribs)
This edit complains about the
fair enough! But shouldn't then the tags be one template:Essay-like {{Essay-like|section}} first in the Origins section, while the {{refimprove}} can remain as is? Just a suggestion... Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 12:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
We currently have Herul or Herule as singular, and Heruli, Heruls, and Herules as plural forms. Anyone have a proposal for a standard?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:22, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Was East Germanic spoken as far west as present day Denmark? -- Oddeivind ( talk) 10:27, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
A recent edit is not making sense to me. The syntax and vocabulary elude me.
Examine this phrase, "...many of the royal family with fellows (maybe 1/3 (Goffart))...". Does this refer to the royal family, plus its attendants, hangers-on, and others? What does the 1/3 refer to? A third of the royal family, or a third of the Herules, or a third of something else? I don't have access to "Goffart".
I really have no idea what this phrase is referring to: "...which explains the envoy in 548 above and below...". If Thorgisl is a native speaker of a non-English Germanic language, this could be the basis of my confusion, as I only have familiarity with the Germanic language of English. Has the envoy been mentioned earlier in this article? "Above and below" what? If I don't understand these phrases, then it's likely that other readers won't either, unless they're so familiar with the Herules that they need not read the article to learn anything new about this tribe.-- Quisqualis ( talk) 07:59, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Andrew Lancaster: Why did you remove two sources on the Heruli from Peter Heather and the The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity? [4] Krakkos ( talk) 18:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
The sources are not needed, as in most of the dozens of edits you have been making into the opening sentences of articles today, and as we have discussed already on your own talk page. As mentioned in my edsum, in this case you also changed the text from East Germanic to Germanic. One is simply more specific than the other, so this was a removal of information.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I was very surprised to see User:Krakkos suddenly change the name of this article while we were in the middle of a discussion on the Herules talk page. The edsum is hard to connect to any obvious facts which justify it. What is the reason for this??-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:09, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I have requested discussion here from Thomas.W but in the meantime here are links for reference to discussion about this article which happened in other places: [ADDED: Edsum by Thomas should be considered also: [11]: Reverted to revision 940960421 by 77.85.55.14: Rv undiscussed major rewrite of the article, best described as a POV hatchet job based on, and giving undue weight to, a non-mainstream, boirdering on fringe, source (Goffart) that totally deviates from the mainstream view; do NOT restore it until there is a clear support from other editors for it!!!]
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In order to continue editing without creating further concerns, I should receive some clearer definition of what the problem is. To be clear, the version reverted to is just as much my work as the version reverted from, and as the writer of the added-to materials I am not seeing the problem with the additions, but I do want to have the possibility to try to resolve whatever the concern is as long as it is reasonable. (EG banning all mention of Goffart from WP would be extreme.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 23:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC) I don't expect I am going to receive any clear answer, in which case the BRD cycle won't work, and I have to guess what is going on. I will state my starting guesses, and my ideas for working, for the sake of openness and practicality, and then get back to work:
Most of these now-deleted sources [12] have nothing to do with Walter Goffart. There were 6:
Completely removed sources were: |
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=>Proposed action: recover the reverted material fully for the above sources.
@ Thomas.W and Krakkos: BTW I am not seeing this as an RFC, or anything similar. The logical first step in the section has to be that the source deletions need to be explained. Deleting sources is controversial. But at this stage there is not even any evidence that the deletion was deliberate. (It was after all simply a mass revert.) There is no sign either of you have read the names of the 6 sources, and seen how they were being used. If we can't get any further in this specific discussion than that, then I think the sources simply need to be reinserted as an obvious first step after the mass reversion.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:59, 11 March 2020 (UTC) UPDATE. I have re-entered the sources, for now just as sources. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:05, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I would like to reinstate this information which was the basic type of additional material needed in the article and part of my long term work on this article to get the basic points in, which appear in all focused publications about this topic. (Now clearly interrupted!) It is now missing for no good reason:
I don't see anything controversial about these?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:35, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I re-entered this sourcing but then I noticed Srnec has also added some modern secondary sources to the bibliography which I had not yet considered. Still, I propose also keeping the reference to Tacitus and Grimm at least, despite being more "primary", as part of the illustration of the context. (As we commonly do in topics like this where writers of history are part of the history.) But I will have a look anyway.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:57, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Concerning the remarkable comments of Procopius on Herules, our existing section at the end of the article, petered out and was tagged for sources. It was essentially based on quoting primary sources and this created a problematic situation where Wikipedia voice was being used to express opinions from a complex and political ancient writer who modern interpreters always treat as a source to be careful of. [ADDED The collapsible box contains the deleted text.]
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The historian Procopius had a notable fascination with the Herules. In the words of Walter Goffart :
...and although Procopius praised the Herule named Pharas who brought about the surrender of the north African Vandal king Gelimer...
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In short, it seems non-controversial that any nice modern secondary source, explaining how to understand Procopius in context is exactly what we need? Here is the deleted material, which I propose to be completely needed, uncontroversial and needing to be re-inserted.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC) (Similar discussions in Steinacher are of course in German. So the Goffart quotes are verifiably non-controversial, but simply very convenient for us.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Similarly to Heruli, the article Scirii has recently been rewritten by Andrew Lancaster. [14] The rewrite starts of by classifying the Scirii with the neologism "Roman era people", and then continues claiming that Romans classified them as "Scythian" or "Gothic", that they spoke an "East Germanic language", and that they raided a city near "Odessa". None of this stuff is mentioned in the body or attributed to any source. There are WP:NOR concerns there which deserves the attention of the community. Krakkos ( talk) 11:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
The classification sections is basically also a statement concerning language.
The section has now been over-footnoted, in that familiar defensive manner, using short Oxford dictionary and Britannica articles. Obviously these sources include single word categorizations but give no explanations about doubts, even if those doubts are big ones. This puts them in conflict with WP core content policies whenever we know there is some doubt or debate possible. (On WP we have to report the debates.) Furthermore especially on a short article about an uncertain subject, it is best practice to give our readers some insight into doubts, uncertainties, and how conclusions were arrived at.) Here then, is what the RGA says about the languages of the Herules. The RGA is a far more authoritative series of works which goes into enormous detail and his highly cited:
Sprache. Aufschluss über die Sprache der H. geben nur die Namen, von denen die lat. und griech. Que. eindeutig berichten, dass sie von H.n geführt wurden. Diejenigen, die problemlos etylmogisierbar sind, lassen sich im Hinblick auf dialnostische Dialektmerkmale nicht von got. Namen derselben Zeit unterscheiden. Dies kann jedoch auf einer sekundären Gotisierung in S-Europa sowie auf lat. und griech. Schriebgewohnheiten beruhren und braucht eine skand. Herkunft nich auszuschliessen.Taylor (1999), "Heruler", Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, vol. 14, pp. 470–73
Basically it is saying that the evidence for the Herules' language is the names, and some names look Gothic but not all. It also says that Gothic forms of names do not rule out other origins because there was a Gothisicizing thing happening, and also Graeco-Roman writers might have been used to Gothic forms. This is basically the same thing Goffart says:
Procopius does not group the Herules among the "Gothic peoples," and the signs they were "Germanic" rather than something else are equivocal.[91] (p.205) Footnote 91 on page 335: The unusually numerous proper names of Herules reported by Procopius include: Aluith, Aordus, Arufus, Datius, Grepes, Fulcaris, Ochus, Phaniteus, Pharas, Philemuth, Sinduald, Suartas, Uligargus, Visandus. Note also Audonoballus and Naulobatus: Schmidt, Ostgermanen, p.215; and Alaric in Procopius (not the Alaric). Some of them are definitely Germanic (e.g., Alaric, Aluith, Fulcaris, Sinduald).Goffart, Walter (2006). Barbarian Tides: The Migration Age and the Later Roman Empire. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 9780812239393.
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help)Let's think about it. At the very least I think that we can add some words to indicate that the evidence for their language is based on personal name evidence?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 17:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
We have a strange remark which needs fixing. According to Procopius many of the royal family with fellows went north and settled in "Thule" (the Scandinavian Peninsula) which corresponds to the envoy in 548 above and below.[11]
I found the following edits:
It cites Goffart but something has gotten garbled. I intend to fix it by first trying to work out what it was referring to. I will check against Goffart but also against Steinacher.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:48, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
For future reference I simply note this information:
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help); Invalid |ref=harv
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help)The older reference by Heather has one very short paragraph and no sources at all. The newer reference, which apparently should be better, has 2 paragraphs, and cites the Steinacher and Sarantis articles, which are sources that I added long before these two dictionary sources were added. We know these were done without any special research or consideration as part of a massive campaign of near-identical quick edits into many articles by Krakkos. I am not saying we need to remove these sources of course, but it is remarkable that the sources the better short article cites were then argued by Krakkos be superior to more focused and specialised sources which it cites, and which are clearly pre-eminent articles on this topic: [17]. To give another perspective: Peter Heather (the big name on the older dictionary article) wrote the positive afterword for the two specialist articles. It is clear that single paragraph tertiary source articles can be useful but should not normally be used to over-rule more specialized and detailed authorities. Generally speaking, being a tertiary source counts against "reliability" on WP. WP core content policy also conflicts directly with the aim of "dictionary" style tertiary sources that do not report controversies, meaning that such sources are particularly weak whenever they concern a topic with a no single simple consensus.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Not a big concern, but trying to do what's best. I have no strong opinion about this theory, but I tend to be careful about removing things that have been in an article for a long time, especially if there has even been a debate. If we are going to get rid of something then, given the aim of making a stable article, it is best practice to get the best rationale on record. So I think I discussed above that I was investigating, and had already tracked that it was certainly a serious 19th century speculation (by none other than Jakob Grimm it seems). For the record then, I note that Krakkos has removed mention now [18], though I was now in the middle of trying to get a look at the RGA article, which Google books seems to show does still mention the theory. If anyone has access to any source that helps, we can come back to it, but for now it is gone. Anyone have Reallexikon access?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 22:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Could I ask for explanations/feedback about the following points, which I hope/think are not very controversial? But they still should be looked at, and it seems Krakkos and I have different opinions that are not clear - or maybe we just missed each other's point. @ Krakkos: I am also not sure what your reasoning, so it would be helpful if you could mention any misunderstandings I am making.
More about classifications sections in general. Krakkos quite recently added such short Classification sections to dozens of articles on WP, but they are certainly not any sort of tradition on Wikipedia? Isn't this using a part of the article body as a sort of extra Category field?
Apart from common sense, a risk of having two sections about the same thing, which I keep seeing in Germanic-related articles, is that they can be used to develop a POV fork section, and then as a lever to switch the article towards a POV, and censoring parts of what the field really publishes. To put it another way, it makes it harder for good editors to find where to put their material into a good structured article, but easier for problematic things to slip past everyone's notice.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
...@ Krakkos: so you merged two separate sources, making verifiability worse, and then when I posted a concern about it, you tagged the merged footnotes to say page number needed? [19] That is pretty unconstructive? Why do you make every little thing so difficult?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
From Heather's well-cited scholarly article about disappearing and reappearing tribes, p.98, it seems we are being more naive about Jordanes:
In the case of the Heruli, therefore, we find the same named group appearing in detailed, trustworthy, and at least partly contemporary narrative sources but with virtually a two hundred year gap between appearances. In between, they had certainly been submerged within Attila's Hunnic Empire in the fifth century, and had perhaps also been dominated by Goths in the fourth, although this latter point can only be conjecture.
Bold added by me.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:39, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps useful [20] -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the sources provided about the runic connection are strong enough.
Klaus Düwel writes:
4. Whether a single individual or a group of people created runic script cannot be ascertained. Ethnically, depending on one’s theory, it
could have belonged to the Angles, Herulians, Marcomanni or — if at- tested — to ethnic groups who migrated further to the southeast, though
for chronological reasons the Goths can be eliminated.
Hilda Ellis Davidson writes:
perhaps along with the use of runic letters, with the tribe of the Heruli,
Neither source is actually trying to put forward this theory, but rather mention it in passing. They simply acknowledge its existence. Davidson was writing in 1964 so this is not exactly evidence of support for the theory in current academic thought.
If better sources are not found I think this paragraph should be deleted.
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The title 'Heruliis' is wrong and should be changed to 'Heruls' or/and 'Eruli'. This people is usually called Heruls in the literature, but the Latin name Eruli is also widely used, while the form 'Heruliis' is a wrong mixture of the two names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.204.69.196 ( talk) 13:15, June 2, 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following, since I couldn't confirm it, and it was questioned in the past. If there are any sources for this, please let me know.
<!--is the following more than fantasy?-->Organized as "wolf-packs", each pack of no more than a dozen or so was lead by two older males, an alpha- and beta-wolf. Younger men (aged approximately 15-21) comprised the retinue of the two wolf-leaders. After their summer-long (from April 31 to October 31) training in military, genealogy, cultic practice, sexuality, and other items necessary to social order, the youths were initiated into full manhood when they had killed another man in battle, or had killed a wild boar or large bear in the hunt. Exclusively foot-soldiers, the Heruli were a nomadic tribe who used horses only for moving their camps. A particularly frightening tactic of the Heruli which amazed the Romans, was that they were so fast on foot that they would team up with a horse-riding warrior, hang on to the mane of the horse with their left hand, wield their swords with their right hand, and charge into battle, running as fast as the horse directly into the fray. Several of these names also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Uha ("Big One"), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous").
Quadell (talk) 19:09, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user recently deleted a lot of text without explaining why. I have no idea if the deleted text was accurate or inaccurate, but if anyone knows more than I do, please, fill me in. I'm not sure if the deletions should be reverted or not. Quadell (talk) 00:03, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
The following statement apparently offends Anonymous User:213.219.53.82 who has repeatedly suppressed it:
Wetman 15:47, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have several times tried to improve the Heruli article by deleting speculative and outdated information about their supposed Scandinavian origins, their mastery of runes and their battle tactics. The first assertation is impossible to demonstrate on the basis of the available sources and should not be stated so firmly as some people seem to wish. They may have come from Scandinavia or northern Germany, but the fact is that we have no way of knowing. The assertation that the Heruls were rune masters who formed the elite of Scandinavia and that the Scandinavian title Jarl is derived from their name is simply wrong. The title Jarl is derived from an IE word for 'free man' and there is no evidence that the Heruls in south east Europe ever used runes. Finally, we know nothing about their battle tactics. Procopius, reports that the Heruls who served in the Roman army were typically employed as lightly armed infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.53.82 ( talk) 13:05, November 9, 2004 (UTC)
One person has written an excellent article on the Heruls (14.11.04) (at least much better than what was there), which Wiglaf seems to have deleted or replaced by the old artilce, which is really quite bad. Wiglaf seems to be very insistent on his views. Why is that? The modern literature really shows that a Scandinavian origin of the Heruls cannot be postulated on the basis of the historical sources. I would like to see the new article of 14.11 on the Wikipedia, which is accurate and balanced. Thanks Claudia:-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.53.82 ( talk) 05:59, November 15, 2004 (UTC)
This text is a slender personal fantasy, not worthy of Wikipedia: Plinius and Tacitus (circa 95 CE) both mention Suebian tribes called the Harii or Hirri. That the Harii and the Heruli are basically synonymous is strongly evidenced by the fact that in the 500s when Salinga, daughter of the last Heruli king Rhodoulph (Honor-Wolf?), married Wacho, king of the Lombards, as his third polygynous wife, she named her son by him Walt-Hari - modern Walter - "ruler of the Hari/marauders". See both Prokopios and Paulus Diaconus for this episode. Also note that the common name Harold is identical as well, from Hari-Walt.) I have not removed it, however, as interfering in this article seems hopeless. But why not an article Harii? -- Wetman 21:01, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article (currently at 31KB) is a bit overlong and quite frankly I fail to see the value of the list of Runic inscriptions attributed to the Heruli. That material should either be deleted or set out into a seperate article if it truly is worthy of being included in an encyclopedia. -- 165.247.182.182 01:39, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I won't discuss the rest of the article, but this section is in my view substandard. First, it is far too speculative. The meaning of the noun erilaz is uncertain. There is no consensus on it's meaning or ethymology, though there is some small agreement that it designs one in knowledge of runes. I myself would be very interested to know some more of "the strongest academic evidence to date" of it meaning marauder and even more so in how it connects with a hypothetical wolf-warrior brotherhood. -- Asdfgl 17:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
Basing any hypothesis on the element harjaz in personal names is ridiculous. It was a common element in Germanic personal names, and I strongly doubt that people such as Ohthere had any connection with either the Harii nor the Heruli. Here is a link [3] to an article on Scandinavian personal names, for anyone who is interested in the use of the name harjaz.-- Wiglaf 15:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The text below seems to have been deleted by an anon on June 8th of last year, without explanation or discussion on the talk page. Fortunately some of it was still in Google so I could trace it. It seems to be well referenced and annotated. Is there any reason why I should not restore it?
--Homosexuality of the Heruli--
According to Procopius, bishop of Caesaria, the Heruli practiced a warrior-based, ritual homosexuality. In his De Bello Gothico, Prokopios is scandalized by the fact that "kai mixeis ouch hosias telousin, allas te kai andron" (Greek), or "and they have sex contrary to the ends of divine law, even with men" (VI. xiv. 36). Procopius does not elaborate upon this brief statement. However, he also noted that the young squires of the "Erouloi" (Greek for Heruli) go into battle without even a shield to protect themselves; once proven in battle, their Heruli masters then permitted them to carry one in battle, signifying their entrance into full manhood. Historian of homosexuality, David Greenberg, believes that in this passage, Prokopios implied that the homosexuality practiced by the Heruli was ritualistic and initiatory in nature, for "pederasty was practiced in connection with the transition from youth to manhood" in the early Germanic "men's societies (Männerbünder)" as well as being common to all Indo-European cultures. Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5). (See Greenberg's The Construction of Homosexuality, 1988, p. 243.)
As Russian scholar Askold Ivancik (see section above) notes, "The formula of the Indo-European law, according to which the murderer 'became a wolf', is certainly linked to these notions [of heroic youthful initiants being considered dogs or wolves]. This formula was conserved in several Indo-European traditions, notably the Hittite, Germanic, and Indo-Iranian. It has given birth to a new sense, 'criminal, outlaw', attributed to the word 'wolf'. The notions of man-wolves and homosexuality, very prevalent in masculine societies, may explain the usual comparison in the Greek tradition between the 'erastes' [active homosexual lover] and the wolf." ("Les Guerriers-chiens", p. 313)
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
The Weerdinge bog bodies of the Netherlands, who were found wrapped in each other's arms, were initially thought to have been a 2,000 year old heterosexual couple. However, both adult bodies are bearded so testing was recently performed and conclusively showed that the two intimates were actually both male. DNA testing by Dr. Carney Matheson's team at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada has proven that the two men were not closely genetically related maternally or paternally, so the two men are not brothers, as some scholars have proposed. See http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/weerdingemen.html for a fuller treatment of these bog bodies. While the two intimates cannot conclusively be proved to have been Harji/Heruli, circumstantial evidence indicates it is quite possible. That two adult males (one apparently somewhat younger and smaller than the other) were carefully laid to rest by local people in a marsh in an intimate embrace for eternity in ancient Germania does reflect many cultural aspects consistent with those of the Heruli.
Haiduc 01:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
The following text was deleted by me. Explanations in which ancient names appear to have a "homosexual innuendo" have no purpose in a encyclopdia
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Furthermore I deleted the reference to the weerdinge peatbodies since they bear no relevance to the Heruli. If you want to have an article on homosexuality amongst barbarian european tribes start a seperate article. I also deleted reference to Askold Ivancik. Again, start a seperate article.
Furthermore I deleted this.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
and this
Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5).
Fantasy. And a very bad one, I might add. Seems apologetic to pederasts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelayo 2006 ( talk • contribs) 14:11, March 22, 2006 (UTC)
After rereading it seems to me this should be rewritten as a general article on what Procopius and other mention about the Heruls. If this is not done we better delete the same-sex paragraph — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelayo 2006 ( talk • contribs) 08:23, March 23, 2006 (UTC)
Is not Moravia eastern Bohemia while Belgrade is much father south (not near) in modern Serbia?
Was there an ancient Moravia that is different from the modern Moravia?
If so the link is wrong as well.
darylkohlhoff 71.87.118.170 11:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello,
Wouldn't it be wise to add references to these phrases, because all looked up some of books on this question and it is mostly written that it is hard to identify herulis with any nation. On that what concerns the language that they spoke there is only one source left this is the Lords prayer of herulis and by linguistical researches the most probable nation to associate with are Balts (reference of norvegr book by Rackus): The Heruli (spelled variously in Latin and Greek) were a nomadic Germanic people, who were subjugated by the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Byzantines in the 3rd to 5th centuries. The name is related to earl (see erilaz) and was probably an honorific military title. One of the Heruli, Odoacer, deposed the last Western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustus.
Cheers Domas --Ceckauskas Dominykas 21:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceckauskas Dominykas ( talk • contribs)
I stumbled onto this page by accident, but I would nevertheless advise anyone who wants to try to get closer to the truth, to above all, learn BASICS! Learn what indogermanic or indoeuropean means, learn at least the names of at least the most important tribes and their wanderings. Try to understand the timespans and think. Learn about the Hallstattkultur, learn about Celtic origins and learn geography! Learn the difference between German and Germanic, learn who the Teutonen were and the difference to Teutonic, .... Basically learn, learn, learn! You still won't know everything, you'll probably despair of ever knowing "the truth" and settle for the more modest goal of glimpsing a small part of it, but you will recognise embarrassing nonsense much more easily and you will be more cautious before making assertions that prove only your own lack of knowledge. When I think about how many people look things up on Wikipedia and take what they read as proven facts, it is frightening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.23.200.50 ( talk) 22:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
The 6th century (and later) sources have been well studied and they speak to something. When people from one culture write about another, they may have all manner of biases (and incomplete material). It is also the case that people inside a culture can have biases and incomplete material. This does not mean that we are to ignore it all. If the Herulis are mentioned in Roman literature (and they are), and this literature ( as well as other literature about the Heruli ) have been studied by scholars and published in a scholarly manner since then (as this subject occupies almost an entire volume of a 1720 work by Laurence Echard, who translated and annotated from the original Latin texts). Echard knows how to contextualize his ancient sources, he's a gem. He's available electronically from various college libraries. This article should certainly start with him - every other historian does.--LeValley 06:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeValley ( talk • contribs)
This edit complains about the
fair enough! But shouldn't then the tags be one template:Essay-like {{Essay-like|section}} first in the Origins section, while the {{refimprove}} can remain as is? Just a suggestion... Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 12:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
We currently have Herul or Herule as singular, and Heruli, Heruls, and Herules as plural forms. Anyone have a proposal for a standard?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:22, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Was East Germanic spoken as far west as present day Denmark? -- Oddeivind ( talk) 10:27, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
A recent edit is not making sense to me. The syntax and vocabulary elude me.
Examine this phrase, "...many of the royal family with fellows (maybe 1/3 (Goffart))...". Does this refer to the royal family, plus its attendants, hangers-on, and others? What does the 1/3 refer to? A third of the royal family, or a third of the Herules, or a third of something else? I don't have access to "Goffart".
I really have no idea what this phrase is referring to: "...which explains the envoy in 548 above and below...". If Thorgisl is a native speaker of a non-English Germanic language, this could be the basis of my confusion, as I only have familiarity with the Germanic language of English. Has the envoy been mentioned earlier in this article? "Above and below" what? If I don't understand these phrases, then it's likely that other readers won't either, unless they're so familiar with the Herules that they need not read the article to learn anything new about this tribe.-- Quisqualis ( talk) 07:59, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@ Andrew Lancaster: Why did you remove two sources on the Heruli from Peter Heather and the The Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity? [4] Krakkos ( talk) 18:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
The sources are not needed, as in most of the dozens of edits you have been making into the opening sentences of articles today, and as we have discussed already on your own talk page. As mentioned in my edsum, in this case you also changed the text from East Germanic to Germanic. One is simply more specific than the other, so this was a removal of information.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I was very surprised to see User:Krakkos suddenly change the name of this article while we were in the middle of a discussion on the Herules talk page. The edsum is hard to connect to any obvious facts which justify it. What is the reason for this??-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:09, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I have requested discussion here from Thomas.W but in the meantime here are links for reference to discussion about this article which happened in other places: [ADDED: Edsum by Thomas should be considered also: [11]: Reverted to revision 940960421 by 77.85.55.14: Rv undiscussed major rewrite of the article, best described as a POV hatchet job based on, and giving undue weight to, a non-mainstream, boirdering on fringe, source (Goffart) that totally deviates from the mainstream view; do NOT restore it until there is a clear support from other editors for it!!!]
Discussions about this article at other pages | ||
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In order to continue editing without creating further concerns, I should receive some clearer definition of what the problem is. To be clear, the version reverted to is just as much my work as the version reverted from, and as the writer of the added-to materials I am not seeing the problem with the additions, but I do want to have the possibility to try to resolve whatever the concern is as long as it is reasonable. (EG banning all mention of Goffart from WP would be extreme.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 23:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC) I don't expect I am going to receive any clear answer, in which case the BRD cycle won't work, and I have to guess what is going on. I will state my starting guesses, and my ideas for working, for the sake of openness and practicality, and then get back to work:
Most of these now-deleted sources [12] have nothing to do with Walter Goffart. There were 6:
Completely removed sources were: |
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=>Proposed action: recover the reverted material fully for the above sources.
@ Thomas.W and Krakkos: BTW I am not seeing this as an RFC, or anything similar. The logical first step in the section has to be that the source deletions need to be explained. Deleting sources is controversial. But at this stage there is not even any evidence that the deletion was deliberate. (It was after all simply a mass revert.) There is no sign either of you have read the names of the 6 sources, and seen how they were being used. If we can't get any further in this specific discussion than that, then I think the sources simply need to be reinserted as an obvious first step after the mass reversion.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 13:59, 11 March 2020 (UTC) UPDATE. I have re-entered the sources, for now just as sources. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:05, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I would like to reinstate this information which was the basic type of additional material needed in the article and part of my long term work on this article to get the basic points in, which appear in all focused publications about this topic. (Now clearly interrupted!) It is now missing for no good reason:
I don't see anything controversial about these?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:35, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
I re-entered this sourcing but then I noticed Srnec has also added some modern secondary sources to the bibliography which I had not yet considered. Still, I propose also keeping the reference to Tacitus and Grimm at least, despite being more "primary", as part of the illustration of the context. (As we commonly do in topics like this where writers of history are part of the history.) But I will have a look anyway.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:57, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Concerning the remarkable comments of Procopius on Herules, our existing section at the end of the article, petered out and was tagged for sources. It was essentially based on quoting primary sources and this created a problematic situation where Wikipedia voice was being used to express opinions from a complex and political ancient writer who modern interpreters always treat as a source to be careful of. [ADDED The collapsible box contains the deleted text.]
Deleted material |
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The historian Procopius had a notable fascination with the Herules. In the words of Walter Goffart :
...and although Procopius praised the Herule named Pharas who brought about the surrender of the north African Vandal king Gelimer...
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In short, it seems non-controversial that any nice modern secondary source, explaining how to understand Procopius in context is exactly what we need? Here is the deleted material, which I propose to be completely needed, uncontroversial and needing to be re-inserted.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC) (Similar discussions in Steinacher are of course in German. So the Goffart quotes are verifiably non-controversial, but simply very convenient for us.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Similarly to Heruli, the article Scirii has recently been rewritten by Andrew Lancaster. [14] The rewrite starts of by classifying the Scirii with the neologism "Roman era people", and then continues claiming that Romans classified them as "Scythian" or "Gothic", that they spoke an "East Germanic language", and that they raided a city near "Odessa". None of this stuff is mentioned in the body or attributed to any source. There are WP:NOR concerns there which deserves the attention of the community. Krakkos ( talk) 11:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
The classification sections is basically also a statement concerning language.
The section has now been over-footnoted, in that familiar defensive manner, using short Oxford dictionary and Britannica articles. Obviously these sources include single word categorizations but give no explanations about doubts, even if those doubts are big ones. This puts them in conflict with WP core content policies whenever we know there is some doubt or debate possible. (On WP we have to report the debates.) Furthermore especially on a short article about an uncertain subject, it is best practice to give our readers some insight into doubts, uncertainties, and how conclusions were arrived at.) Here then, is what the RGA says about the languages of the Herules. The RGA is a far more authoritative series of works which goes into enormous detail and his highly cited:
Sprache. Aufschluss über die Sprache der H. geben nur die Namen, von denen die lat. und griech. Que. eindeutig berichten, dass sie von H.n geführt wurden. Diejenigen, die problemlos etylmogisierbar sind, lassen sich im Hinblick auf dialnostische Dialektmerkmale nicht von got. Namen derselben Zeit unterscheiden. Dies kann jedoch auf einer sekundären Gotisierung in S-Europa sowie auf lat. und griech. Schriebgewohnheiten beruhren und braucht eine skand. Herkunft nich auszuschliessen.Taylor (1999), "Heruler", Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, vol. 14, pp. 470–73
Basically it is saying that the evidence for the Herules' language is the names, and some names look Gothic but not all. It also says that Gothic forms of names do not rule out other origins because there was a Gothisicizing thing happening, and also Graeco-Roman writers might have been used to Gothic forms. This is basically the same thing Goffart says:
Procopius does not group the Herules among the "Gothic peoples," and the signs they were "Germanic" rather than something else are equivocal.[91] (p.205) Footnote 91 on page 335: The unusually numerous proper names of Herules reported by Procopius include: Aluith, Aordus, Arufus, Datius, Grepes, Fulcaris, Ochus, Phaniteus, Pharas, Philemuth, Sinduald, Suartas, Uligargus, Visandus. Note also Audonoballus and Naulobatus: Schmidt, Ostgermanen, p.215; and Alaric in Procopius (not the Alaric). Some of them are definitely Germanic (e.g., Alaric, Aluith, Fulcaris, Sinduald).Goffart, Walter (2006). Barbarian Tides: The Migration Age and the Later Roman Empire. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 9780812239393.
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(
help)Let's think about it. At the very least I think that we can add some words to indicate that the evidence for their language is based on personal name evidence?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 17:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
We have a strange remark which needs fixing. According to Procopius many of the royal family with fellows went north and settled in "Thule" (the Scandinavian Peninsula) which corresponds to the envoy in 548 above and below.[11]
I found the following edits:
It cites Goffart but something has gotten garbled. I intend to fix it by first trying to work out what it was referring to. I will check against Goffart but also against Steinacher.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:48, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
For future reference I simply note this information:
{{
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: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |subscription=
(
help); Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)The older reference by Heather has one very short paragraph and no sources at all. The newer reference, which apparently should be better, has 2 paragraphs, and cites the Steinacher and Sarantis articles, which are sources that I added long before these two dictionary sources were added. We know these were done without any special research or consideration as part of a massive campaign of near-identical quick edits into many articles by Krakkos. I am not saying we need to remove these sources of course, but it is remarkable that the sources the better short article cites were then argued by Krakkos be superior to more focused and specialised sources which it cites, and which are clearly pre-eminent articles on this topic: [17]. To give another perspective: Peter Heather (the big name on the older dictionary article) wrote the positive afterword for the two specialist articles. It is clear that single paragraph tertiary source articles can be useful but should not normally be used to over-rule more specialized and detailed authorities. Generally speaking, being a tertiary source counts against "reliability" on WP. WP core content policy also conflicts directly with the aim of "dictionary" style tertiary sources that do not report controversies, meaning that such sources are particularly weak whenever they concern a topic with a no single simple consensus.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Not a big concern, but trying to do what's best. I have no strong opinion about this theory, but I tend to be careful about removing things that have been in an article for a long time, especially if there has even been a debate. If we are going to get rid of something then, given the aim of making a stable article, it is best practice to get the best rationale on record. So I think I discussed above that I was investigating, and had already tracked that it was certainly a serious 19th century speculation (by none other than Jakob Grimm it seems). For the record then, I note that Krakkos has removed mention now [18], though I was now in the middle of trying to get a look at the RGA article, which Google books seems to show does still mention the theory. If anyone has access to any source that helps, we can come back to it, but for now it is gone. Anyone have Reallexikon access?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 22:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Could I ask for explanations/feedback about the following points, which I hope/think are not very controversial? But they still should be looked at, and it seems Krakkos and I have different opinions that are not clear - or maybe we just missed each other's point. @ Krakkos: I am also not sure what your reasoning, so it would be helpful if you could mention any misunderstandings I am making.
More about classifications sections in general. Krakkos quite recently added such short Classification sections to dozens of articles on WP, but they are certainly not any sort of tradition on Wikipedia? Isn't this using a part of the article body as a sort of extra Category field?
Apart from common sense, a risk of having two sections about the same thing, which I keep seeing in Germanic-related articles, is that they can be used to develop a POV fork section, and then as a lever to switch the article towards a POV, and censoring parts of what the field really publishes. To put it another way, it makes it harder for good editors to find where to put their material into a good structured article, but easier for problematic things to slip past everyone's notice.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:24, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
...@ Krakkos: so you merged two separate sources, making verifiability worse, and then when I posted a concern about it, you tagged the merged footnotes to say page number needed? [19] That is pretty unconstructive? Why do you make every little thing so difficult?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
From Heather's well-cited scholarly article about disappearing and reappearing tribes, p.98, it seems we are being more naive about Jordanes:
In the case of the Heruli, therefore, we find the same named group appearing in detailed, trustworthy, and at least partly contemporary narrative sources but with virtually a two hundred year gap between appearances. In between, they had certainly been submerged within Attila's Hunnic Empire in the fifth century, and had perhaps also been dominated by Goths in the fourth, although this latter point can only be conjecture.
Bold added by me.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 19:39, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps useful [20] -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the sources provided about the runic connection are strong enough.
Klaus Düwel writes:
4. Whether a single individual or a group of people created runic script cannot be ascertained. Ethnically, depending on one’s theory, it
could have belonged to the Angles, Herulians, Marcomanni or — if at- tested — to ethnic groups who migrated further to the southeast, though
for chronological reasons the Goths can be eliminated.
Hilda Ellis Davidson writes:
perhaps along with the use of runic letters, with the tribe of the Heruli,
Neither source is actually trying to put forward this theory, but rather mention it in passing. They simply acknowledge its existence. Davidson was writing in 1964 so this is not exactly evidence of support for the theory in current academic thought.
If better sources are not found I think this paragraph should be deleted.