Herbert Hope Risley has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 21:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography notes that during his time in India "... [Risley] cultivated an intimate knowledge of the peoples of India. In 1910 he asserted that a knowledge of facts concerning the religions and habits of the peoples of India equipped a civil servant with a passport to popular regard". Furthermore, that "On the processes by which non-Aryan tribes are admitted into Hinduism he was recognized to be the greatest living authority", and "His work completely revolutionized the native Indian view of ethnological inquiry" by legitimising an inquisitive methodology which had previously been resented by the colonial subjects
Risley thought that he could use varna as the top-most level of classification, and in doing so he opened a can of worms that encompasses such later developments as sanskritisation which, put crudely, is where a caste defined by the British Raj administration as being of a particular varna attempts to assert an ancient lineage to a higher varna. Most usually, the claim was to have been a kshatriya (warrior and princely) community, from which they were degraded, often allegedly when the Muslim invasions took place centuries earlier. It is a complex topic, well beyond the scope of this article and, alas, not always covered particularly well elsewhere on WP. The point is, Risley thought that he could pigeon-hole people but he started from false premises because his interpretation of the demarcation points between the ritual ranks is only one of several possible such interpretations. You are probably even more confused now - feel free to query further! - Sitush ( talk) 17:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Text "preface" ignored (
help)
I'm commenting out your reflist below because it is not necessary now and messes up the TOC.-- 2.219.218.79 ( talk) 18:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The article says:
He also became involved in William Wilson Hunter's Statistical Survey of India, which began in 1869, and was to be printed in the first edition of The Imperial Gazetteer of India, published in 1881. Hunter personally conducted the survey of Bengal, and the anthropological, linguistic and sociological accomplishments of Risley were recognised in February 1875 when he was appointed as one of five Assistant Directors of Statistics for Hunter's Survey.
According to the cover page of Henry Scholberg (1970). The District Gazetteers of British India: A Bibliography. Zug, Switzerland: Inter Documentation Company. Risley along with William Stevenson Meyer, Richard Burn and James Sutherland Cotton compiled the twenty-six volume of The Imperial Gazetteer of India which was started by William Wilson Hunter in 1869. I don't have access to the book so can't know the full story from the preface. Solomon 7968 14:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
The header of the article makes the following claims:
The editors should provide citations for both the claims. If the citations are opinions of other scholars then these may be moved to the body of the article. For the second claim, a primary citation is required. Otherwise, these should be considered original research. - Kenfyre ( talk) 09:49, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it." [1]- Sitush ( talk) 10:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
References
According to the political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley is notable for the formal application of the caste system to the entire Hindu population of British India in the 1901 census, of which he was in charge, and his argument that the ancient varna concept could be applied to all of the modern castes.
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.has not been cited in the article and is an ambiguous statement, hence {{ how}}. So, it should be removed from the header. I had could have used a {{ whom}} or {{ clarify}} tag instead of {{ cn}}, but I thought the editors might have a primary source for the revival claim. I have rectified it. - Kenfyre ( talk) 10:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I still don't see why any of this is a POV issue. Are there any reliable sources out there that disagree with what is said? - Sitush ( talk) 11:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.has no citation whatsoever. It could have been
Risley was influential in aggravating the effects of the caste system on the Indian society.or that
Risley intentionally hindered the reformation of the caste system in India.. If you look at the 17 April 2012 revision of the article, just when it was made a WP:Good Article, you will see that this part of the header used to have a citation, the same you have quoted above.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.Thus, it is an original research to claim a revival and I propose that
Risley intentionally hindered the reformation of the caste system in India.be included instead. I have a feeling that we two won't be able to settle this dispute. I would like to start an {{ Rfc}} . I would like to close this dispute soon, so that the article goes back to being a WP:Good Article. - Kenfyre ( talk) 11:45, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Background:
Currently, part of the lead of the article states:
He is notable for the formal application of the caste system to the entire Hindu population of British India in the 1901 census, of which he was in charge. Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India. He thought that the ancient varna concept could be applied to all of the modern castes.
If you read the article, you will see that, part of it is the opinion of Lloyd Rudolph:
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.
However, the claim that Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.
has not been supported anywhere in the article. If you look that the
17 April 2012 revision of the article, just when it was made a
WP:Good Article, you will see that this part of the header used to have a citation, the same which is being used to support Rudolph's quote above. Back then the part of the header read:
Risley was influential in the 20th century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India. According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.
And I am quoting from it, at page 118.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.
Thus, it is an WP:Original research to claim a revival of the varna system. He actually aggravated an pre-existing caste system and hindered reforms by providing them with an illusion of scientific backing.
Proposals:
Since, this is a WP:Good Article. I thought I would build a consensus before it is edited. Frankly, I am surprised no one noticed these errors before me in such a good quality article. I propose:
According to the political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that the ancient varna could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and he intended to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.This sentence or this sentence without the
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolphpart be used in the current header instead of the current sentence.
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.be removed from the lead section or it should be changed to
Risley was responsible for aggravating the pre-existing caste system in India and hindering caste reforms.or something similar, because of the problems I pointed out.
I was told that this article is to go for WP:FAC. So, I would suggest that the article and its citations be closely examined for any more errors which may have escaped my eye. I hope we can work together and make this article of good quality again. - Kenfyre ( talk) 12:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Simplified proposal:
Some people are having trouble understanding the proposal. So, here is the
diff of my proposed edits. The edits are backed by the following
citation: The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.
. -
Kenfyre (
talk) 09:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
...he accepted Brahman claims about the superiority of such customs as the prohibition of widow remarriage or the importance of infant marriage...
...Risley had dramatic influence on the rise of caste organizations and the exploding production of literature about caste system...
Rudolph, Lloyd I. (1984). The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India. Rudolph, Susanne Hoeber. University of Chicago Press. pp. 116–117. ISBN 0-226-73137-5.. However, I would like to include page 118, as much hinges on it.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.- Kenfyre ( talk) 03:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The caption below the map reads,” The map of the prevailing "races" of India (now discredited) based on the 1901 Census of British India". Unfortunately, nowhere in the article there is any mention of when the theory on Indian races was discredited, and by whom. Any new content on this subject would be a welcome addition to the article.Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:39, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy: am I right in thinking that your concern is a lack of detail about scientific racism rather than a dispute regarding whether he accepted the idea? - Sitush ( talk) 01:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Herbert Hope Risley has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 21:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography notes that during his time in India "... [Risley] cultivated an intimate knowledge of the peoples of India. In 1910 he asserted that a knowledge of facts concerning the religions and habits of the peoples of India equipped a civil servant with a passport to popular regard". Furthermore, that "On the processes by which non-Aryan tribes are admitted into Hinduism he was recognized to be the greatest living authority", and "His work completely revolutionized the native Indian view of ethnological inquiry" by legitimising an inquisitive methodology which had previously been resented by the colonial subjects
Risley thought that he could use varna as the top-most level of classification, and in doing so he opened a can of worms that encompasses such later developments as sanskritisation which, put crudely, is where a caste defined by the British Raj administration as being of a particular varna attempts to assert an ancient lineage to a higher varna. Most usually, the claim was to have been a kshatriya (warrior and princely) community, from which they were degraded, often allegedly when the Muslim invasions took place centuries earlier. It is a complex topic, well beyond the scope of this article and, alas, not always covered particularly well elsewhere on WP. The point is, Risley thought that he could pigeon-hole people but he started from false premises because his interpretation of the demarcation points between the ritual ranks is only one of several possible such interpretations. You are probably even more confused now - feel free to query further! - Sitush ( talk) 17:47, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Text "preface" ignored (
help)
I'm commenting out your reflist below because it is not necessary now and messes up the TOC.-- 2.219.218.79 ( talk) 18:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The article says:
He also became involved in William Wilson Hunter's Statistical Survey of India, which began in 1869, and was to be printed in the first edition of The Imperial Gazetteer of India, published in 1881. Hunter personally conducted the survey of Bengal, and the anthropological, linguistic and sociological accomplishments of Risley were recognised in February 1875 when he was appointed as one of five Assistant Directors of Statistics for Hunter's Survey.
According to the cover page of Henry Scholberg (1970). The District Gazetteers of British India: A Bibliography. Zug, Switzerland: Inter Documentation Company. Risley along with William Stevenson Meyer, Richard Burn and James Sutherland Cotton compiled the twenty-six volume of The Imperial Gazetteer of India which was started by William Wilson Hunter in 1869. I don't have access to the book so can't know the full story from the preface. Solomon 7968 14:52, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
The header of the article makes the following claims:
The editors should provide citations for both the claims. If the citations are opinions of other scholars then these may be moved to the body of the article. For the second claim, a primary citation is required. Otherwise, these should be considered original research. - Kenfyre ( talk) 09:49, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it." [1]- Sitush ( talk) 10:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
References
According to the political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley is notable for the formal application of the caste system to the entire Hindu population of British India in the 1901 census, of which he was in charge, and his argument that the ancient varna concept could be applied to all of the modern castes.
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.has not been cited in the article and is an ambiguous statement, hence {{ how}}. So, it should be removed from the header. I had could have used a {{ whom}} or {{ clarify}} tag instead of {{ cn}}, but I thought the editors might have a primary source for the revival claim. I have rectified it. - Kenfyre ( talk) 10:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I still don't see why any of this is a POV issue. Are there any reliable sources out there that disagree with what is said? - Sitush ( talk) 11:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.has no citation whatsoever. It could have been
Risley was influential in aggravating the effects of the caste system on the Indian society.or that
Risley intentionally hindered the reformation of the caste system in India.. If you look at the 17 April 2012 revision of the article, just when it was made a WP:Good Article, you will see that this part of the header used to have a citation, the same you have quoted above.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.Thus, it is an original research to claim a revival and I propose that
Risley intentionally hindered the reformation of the caste system in India.be included instead. I have a feeling that we two won't be able to settle this dispute. I would like to start an {{ Rfc}} . I would like to close this dispute soon, so that the article goes back to being a WP:Good Article. - Kenfyre ( talk) 11:45, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Background:
Currently, part of the lead of the article states:
He is notable for the formal application of the caste system to the entire Hindu population of British India in the 1901 census, of which he was in charge. Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India. He thought that the ancient varna concept could be applied to all of the modern castes.
If you read the article, you will see that, part of it is the opinion of Lloyd Rudolph:
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.
However, the claim that Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.
has not been supported anywhere in the article. If you look that the
17 April 2012 revision of the article, just when it was made a
WP:Good Article, you will see that this part of the header used to have a citation, the same which is being used to support Rudolph's quote above. Back then the part of the header read:
Risley was influential in the 20th century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India. According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "[he] meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.
And I am quoting from it, at page 118.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.
Thus, it is an WP:Original research to claim a revival of the varna system. He actually aggravated an pre-existing caste system and hindered reforms by providing them with an illusion of scientific backing.
Proposals:
Since, this is a WP:Good Article. I thought I would build a consensus before it is edited. Frankly, I am surprised no one noticed these errors before me in such a good quality article. I propose:
According to the political scientist Lloyd Rudolph, Risley believed that the ancient varna could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and he intended to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it.This sentence or this sentence without the
According to political scientist Lloyd Rudolphpart be used in the current header instead of the current sentence.
Risley was influential in the 20th-century revival of the hierarchical varna system as a structure for social order in India.be removed from the lead section or it should be changed to
Risley was responsible for aggravating the pre-existing caste system in India and hindering caste reforms.or something similar, because of the problems I pointed out.
I was told that this article is to go for WP:FAC. So, I would suggest that the article and its citations be closely examined for any more errors which may have escaped my eye. I hope we can work together and make this article of good quality again. - Kenfyre ( talk) 12:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Simplified proposal:
Some people are having trouble understanding the proposal. So, here is the
diff of my proposed edits. The edits are backed by the following
citation: The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.
. -
Kenfyre (
talk) 09:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
...he accepted Brahman claims about the superiority of such customs as the prohibition of widow remarriage or the importance of infant marriage...
...Risley had dramatic influence on the rise of caste organizations and the exploding production of literature about caste system...
Rudolph, Lloyd I. (1984). The Modernity of Tradition: Political Development in India. Rudolph, Susanne Hoeber. University of Chicago Press. pp. 116–117. ISBN 0-226-73137-5.. However, I would like to include page 118, as much hinges on it.
The scheme loosed a storm from below, as hundreds of jatis used the occasion to convert their aspirations to high status into a scientific or historical truth. By assuming an immanent reality and then giving it empirical expression, precisely at that moment when social movement and change were accelerating, Risley and others both aggravated rank consciousness and drew new attention to the reality-shaping possibilities of varna labels.- Kenfyre ( talk) 03:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The caption below the map reads,” The map of the prevailing "races" of India (now discredited) based on the 1901 Census of British India". Unfortunately, nowhere in the article there is any mention of when the theory on Indian races was discredited, and by whom. Any new content on this subject would be a welcome addition to the article.Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 21:39, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy: am I right in thinking that your concern is a lack of detail about scientific racism rather than a dispute regarding whether he accepted the idea? - Sitush ( talk) 01:07, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
References