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Stimpson's oft-quoted "gentlemen" line may have been driven by budgetary constraints; as well, the Army was then establishing Signals Intelligence Service (noted in Hughes-Wilson, Military Intelligence Blunders and Cover-Ups, 1999 & 2004) under Friedman, who was unquestionably the most brilliant cryptanalyst of his generation, & the perceived need for MI-8 may have diminished. Or we may conclude Stimpson was less scrupulous than he pretended. Trekphiler 00:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
FURTHER TO THE ABOVE:
From reading multiple sources, long ago, my understanding is as follows. Sec. Stimpson made a walking tour of the Cryptology section, overseen by Herbert O. Yardley. Yardley was anxious to please and impress his sour-pussed visitor. He mentioned proudly the names of various nations whose code had been cracked, but this got no reaction from Stimson, verbal or nonverbal. Finally Yardley said: "Of course, we can read all VATICAN traffic." It was at this point that Stimson spun on his heel and walked out. The quote was not, I believe, spoken to Yardley and his staff but included in the written document that dissolved MI-8 one or two days later.
What history overlooks here is this. Cryptology is like a game with offense and defense. Each nation engages Both Ways in a contest with each other nation. If the Vatican had coders and decoders for their own traffic, it is a fair guess that some effort went into decoding traffic of Others, particularly codes of the Italian government. It is hardly imaginable to me that if Herbert O. Yardley had sailed for Rome in 1930 and asked if there might be a job for him in the Vatican, that he would have been turned down because Pope Pius XI felt that gentlemen did not read other gentlemen's mail. A companion quote is "spying is the world's second oldest profession". Cryptology serves motivations and needs of those deliberately engaged in world power contests. It is not necessary to encode data such as genuflections per month or soap consumption to launder cassocks.
Trylon 13:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Where is the source of this famous quote? According to some sources, it wasn't written or said in 1929, but was a justification written in 1948 of closing down MI-8. Hexmaster, 213.66.100.72 21:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm slightly surprised by the following statement:
"They honeymooned in the Japanese city of Kyoto, which such made an impression on him that in 1945 it led him to veto the dropping of an atomic bomb on the city, which was one of the four shortlisted targets."
Is this really how such major decisions are made? This same assertion was made in the Notes & Queries section of The Guardian yesterday (by one Tomo Katagiri of Edinburgh) and I came here to check it out.
In the external links section is a link to a selection of Stimson's diary and papers relating to the bomb selected and annotated by Doug Long. Section 8 includes the following, referring to a discussion with President Truman (notes by Doug Long in square brackets):
Could we perhaps have some source for the honeymoon theory. If there is any basis for thinking it was a factor in Stimson's decision then it should be included. -- Spondoolicks 14:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
References
And his protest against the Morgenthau Plan ??? -- 172.178.219.147 08:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
-- 172.178.219.147 14:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Pearl harbor conspiracy theorists are fond of making much of Stimson's diary entries in the months prior to December 7th.
1973), entry for October 16, 1941. as cited in [2]
UNlike the conspiracy theorists, the author of the Princeton book honestly points out, the evidence is suggestive rather than conclusive. You look at a particular straw in the wind and it proves nothing, but as you gather evidence, each brushstroke is added and gradually a larger picture takes shape. Personally I have no conclusion about what the American leadership were thinking. They clearly were aware of Japanese intentions and their past propensity for "surprize attacks". There were some random orders that suggest there were attempts to engineer incidents- though much smaller in scale than the Pearl Harbor attack.
WP does not have the space to list such voluminous "brushstrokes". Nonetheless, the particular facts need to be reported, and my inclination is to include them without interpretation or conclusions drawn.
What the leadership was thinking is enormously important historically, so something really should be said concerning some of the more notable Stimson diary entries.
How does that sound to folks? - Mak 16:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Did he do nothing of note between Pearl Harbour and Nagasaki? Andycjp 08:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Mr Rjensen, the text you inserted some months back that Stimson halted the Morgenthau plan smells very much like unsubstantiated POV to me. And your refusal to include my sentence that makes it less misleading to the reader is certainly POV, i.e. that although the plan was not formaly implemented it did influence policy. Now, you obviously have much spare time, so I wonder if you would oblige me by reading maybe 30 pages from a book available online.
The sections:
and
This might also be beneficial to take a peek at. * The Road Ahead: Lessons in Nation Building from Japan, Germany, and Afghanistan for Postwar Iraq, by Ray Salvatore Jennings May 2003, Peaceworks No. 49, United States Institute of Peace
Or you could bother to read the suggested reading in the Morgenthau plan article.
-- Stor stark7 Talk 21:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Mr Rjensen, please stop weasling! You know very well what my beef with you is about, so don’t try to sidestep the issue.
You had written “Stimson thus retained overall control of the U.S. occupation zone in Germany, and the Morgenthau plan never went into effect.”
The last part of that sentence misleads the reader to think that this is the end all of the subject!
My addition of the sentence “It did however end up influencing U.S. policy in the early occupation years.” was promptly deleted by you with some weak excuse relating to Eisenhower.
You then proceed to sidestep my suggestion that you read some literature that deals with the policies that were in fact effected in Germany (Such as JCS 1067 which had it‘s origin in the Morgenthau Plan) and their origins, by referring to the fact that that they don’t mention Stimpson. Mr Jensen, please don’t lie. Ray Salvatore Jennings report does indeed mention Stimson!
You then have the gall to suggest that I read a book that you obviously have not read yourself!
Let me quote from the book in question (paperback issue) to you:
Page 233. Refering to Truman’s signing of the governing directive to the U.S. occupation forces in Germany, the JCS 1067/8 on May 10, 1945: ..Morgenthau told his staff that Truman’s endorsement was a “big day for the treasury”. He just hoped that “somebody doesn’t recognize it as the Morgenthau Plan.” He wrote to his sons that the directive to Eisenhower was plenty tough, and if carried out at all in the spirit in which it is conceived, I don’t see how Germany can rise to make war again for at least another fifty years.”
Page 270. On August 9, 1945, at a meeting between Stimson and Eisenhower and Clay discussing the JCS 1067/8 “He [Stimson] warned that “no matter how vindictive” Americans felt now, unless Clay restored “an economic life” to the Germans, he would be “repudiated by the very people who gave you these instructions.” Stimson adviced Clay, “Sure, you’ve got to live with 1067.” But they mustn’t “let this country starve to death.”.
Lets turn to another source, one of which I listed above in my first post. Ray Salvatore Jennings report: A few snippets from what it has to say of the JCS 1067, (there is lots more) :
Mr Rjensen, please stop misleading the readers by pushing your POV that there were no effects of the Morgenthau Plan.
-- Stor stark7 Talk 20:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Sec'y Stimson & Gen. Grant, Lawn Party, Gov's Island http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/09400/09435v.jpg (Library of Congress http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/ggbain.09435) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bear1952 ( talk • contribs) 01:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised his membership in "The Committee of Three" is left out. Along with Stimson, it included former Japanese Ambassador Joseph Grew and Admiral Forrester who all agreed it would've been wiser to take a softer more 'face-saving' line by war's end with the Japanese and despite Stimson's invaluable participation with Britain to create the atom bombs, the committee was, to my surprise, against our unconditional surrender terms, had written the Potsdam Delcaration differently than announced & against prolonging the war(in their opinion) to use the bombs, especially on civilians. None of which I learnt till recently. All of which is the opposite of my prior impression of Stimson.
Until I learnt about this, I did not know they wrote the original Potsdam Declaration, that they were against unconditional surrender, initially offered to let the Japanese keep their Emperor but that Byrnes and Truman had infuriated them by re-writing the declaration themselves to exclude that vital offer. In fact, I had a completely different picture of Stimson in my mind till recently.
From the bios I read on these men, they believed we could have ended the war earlier and on better terms for us and worse terms for Stalin and the communists if we'd kept with the original text and 'softer line'. We knew Stalin wasn't forwarding Japan's capitulation negotiation requests from decoding Japan's own diplomatic codes. Stimson, who took the original hard line on the Japanese over Manchuria, was crucial to the atomic bombs being realized, yet to his change in attitude by war's end seems important to me.
According to the Oxford encyclopedia on WWII, recent documents 'prised' out of archival shelters and secrecy acts indicate a very different picture of Stimson than commonly portrayed to date. They quote his released biography 'History might find that the United States, in its delay in stating its position on unconditional surrender terms, had prolonged the war.' This is a very different picture of Stimson than I learnt in history classes 20-30 years ago. I only learnt of this studying Ambassador Grew who was similarily quoted: Grew stated, "If surrender could have been brought about in May 1945 or even in June or July before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer." I never heard of this 'Committee of Three' nor their protesting of unconditional surrender, the Potsdam Declaration, use of atom bomb and Stimson's concerns over the War Crime Trials too.
It seems a shame to leave out this very important change of attitude and participation by leaving out "The Committee of Three" altogether.
Sadly it might have saved all sides many lives and we might have been in a better position to prevent the spread of communism throughout East Asia settling with Japan before Stalin got his foot in the door.
Therefore, I just think it's an important aspect of his life and career if not legacy(total reversal of my perception personally) that is worthy of mention and expounding.(along with Grew and Forrestal).
Any supporters to this inclusion and expounding? TheBalderdasher ( talk) 20:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
How about if we just call him Republican? Or drop the party affiliation from the lede altogether? The meaning of Progressive has changed since Stimson'stime, and so has Conservative. Progressives: Teddy Roosevelt who invaded Cuba, was considered Progressive. And he was also conservative, our first major conservationist. Back when conservatives were known for wanting to conserve trees. Go figure. The labels are kinda beside the point and mentioning in the lede Stimson's political affiliation seems like overemphasis: makes it sound like all that mattered was his party politics. That did matter, don't get me wrong, Roosevelt needed bipartisan support for the war he knew was coming. But Stimson was the guy who mobilized a reluctant American to take on the strongest, deadliest, military power on earth. That is more important than party affiliation, or ideological label. Both proved to be beside the point facing the emergency of world war. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 00:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
How could Stimson be "born into a family long involved in Republican Party politics" when he was born in 1867 and the Republican party was at the time only 12 years old, emerging "out of a coalition of anti-slavery Whigs and Free Soil Democrats" in 1854 and receiving its name only in 1855? ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 23:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
We've waited a year for the "citation needed" template to bear fruit. But no substantiation of that "family long involved in Republican politics" phrase and there is no indication Stimson's father, a surgeon, had any political involvement whatever. So out it goes. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 15:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC
Henry L. Stimson's obituary, published in the New Yirk Times at this death, claims he was from NY and his father was a wealthy financier, not a surgeon. LindaK19 ( talk) 19:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)LindaK19
I believe that the Stimson quote regarding "maneuver[ing] the Japanese into firing the first shot" should either be put in full context or removed from this page. Without a very lengthy analysis of the context, the quote conveys the idea that Pearl Harbor was an "inside job," which is rejected by most reputable historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HannaBarberaFanatic ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There is no proof to say that the person Doug Long forged and created the Stimson diary himself. He just copied and pasted the information and by adding commentaries himself. The writings on the Doug Long page is long and detailed and is the copy and paste of the Stimson papers that many Americans don't want to show, because it reveals the truth including his heart attack scares and other details that Americans don't want to know or care because it is contradicting the norm and propaganda that was fed to the US after the bombing. I say Doug Long just copied and pasted the info and there is no proof that he wrote the 9 pages himself. This is Stimson's writing and careful and detailed search of his papers in other websites and libraries will recreate these diaries.
Doug Long is obviously little critical of the bombing, and the reverts done by certain people are of the opposite view and I think there should be middle ground. I'm in the middle. I'm not blaming anything but I'm trying to show the human aspect of this atomic bombing so that people can get the whole picture. Nobody is perfect and I'm trying to show that. Careful analysis of these kinds of histories are essential for the future generation. Falsities will create more falsities. 75.70.142.23 ( talk) 16:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The language in these two sections seems oddly skewed.
Re: Atomic Bomb First: The analysis of the three days between Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "nothing seemed to happen" rather than "with no surrender being offered during this time" or something more specific is troubling. The war didn't just 'stop' for three days. Events, rather than nothing, was still happening. I'm not an expert on Wikipedia policy (clearly), but isn't clarity and adherence to the denotative value of words a basic value of an enycolopaedia?
Secondly: Considering the next part of the phrase: "he had Truman drop "Fat Man" on Nagasaki on August 9". The denotative value of this phrase is that Stimson ultimately made the call to bomb Nagasaki. While certainly influential over Truman, "encouraged" would be a more accurate turn of phrase. Further, General Groves and Admiral Purnell had long advocated use of two bombs in a 1-2 punch, which makes the portrayal of Stimson as the unilateral force behind the bomb even more suspect. Additionally, as the intended target was Kokura with Nagasaki as a secondary target, the sentence is objectively wrong from that perspective as well. The decision to bomb Nagasaki was made by Bocks Car pilot Charles Sweeney after three failed passes at Kokura.
Finally: The final line "The Japanese offered to surrender on August 10" directly implies that the Japanese decided to surrender as a direct result of the nuclear war, but the article fails to make this an actual position. Given that a discussion of surrendering was already occurring on the ninth, and the importance of the Soviet invasion, this line ultimately constitutes grave content bias. The surrender of Japan article gives a much clearer picture of events, and fundamentally links the Soviet Invasion into the key events. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#August_8.E2.80.939:_Soviet_invasion_and_Nagasaki
Regarding: "Stimson's Vision" The language in the first line is clearly biased, and the first line has nothing to do with the rest of the section. Let's review:
"In retrospect historians debate whether the impact of continued blockade, relentless bombing, and the Russian invasion of Manchuria would have somehow forced the Emperor to surrender sometime in late 1945 or early 1946 even without the atomic bombs (though not without very large numbers of Japanese casualties.)" --- This entire sentence should be removed.
First: The use of "retrospect" is wholly redundant, as all historians consider things in retrospect. Rather, the connotation here is that these views are less valuable because they are being made in hindsight, similar to someone dismissing something with "hindsight is 20/20".
Second: The use of "somehow" colours these historians views as flimsy, and could be removed from the sentence without changing its meaning at all.
Third: The use of "even" is inappropriate for the same reason as "somehow". It does not change the meaning of the sentence other than to imply that without the atomic bombs, ending the war would be much harder. As this sentence is purporting to discuss the views of revisionist historians and not the metaphorical difficulty of stopping Japan sans A-bomb, this seems inappropriate.
Fourth: The parenthetical "(though not without very large numbers of Japanese casualties.)" appears to be an editorial comment, unless all revisionist historians have asides in their work where they confirm that this alternative course of action would have caused great numbers of Japanese casualties. I do not see how this parenthetical has any place in the article.
Fifth: The citation for this sentence says "for "revisionists" who reject use of the bomb, see Gar Alperovitz..." This appears to be a comment directed entirely at revisionist readers – it literally says "for 'revisionists'" – to support a pro-bombing POV, rather than a citation providing evidence of revisionist historian claims.
Sixth: This sentence seems completely unnecessary to the rest of the paragraph, which pretty much just goes on to fawn over Stimson for what a genius he is. The conjuction "but", which leads to the rest of the paragraph, is used to fabricate a connection; however, there is no direct contrast or connection between these historians' views and Stimson's nuclear philosophies, which are the subject of the rest of the paragraph.
To Conclude: Both the jus ad bellum for the atomic bombings and the Surrender of Japan are extremely complicated topics. Both subjects have their own wikipedia articles (see below) that should be linked to directly. That said, as the discussion of historical revisionism and jus ad bellum consists of only a single flawed sentence with little relation to the rest of the article, it should probably be removed from the article entirely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
> Once again, Stimson defied all criticism about his age by proving that he was still as prescient and on top of his game as ever.
lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.43.3.130 ( talk) 19:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
In his biography "The First Wise Man," David F. Schmitz writes of Stimson the following: "Although he would later become the leading public defender of the use of the bombs, Stimson was not comfortable with all the decisions made at the time nor in complete agreement with the use of the bomb as a diplomatic weapon. In the end, he concluded that providing the Japanese with some sort of guarantee of retaining the Emperor would have shortened the war and possibly made the use of the atomic bombs unnecessary."
I added the following sentence with Schmitz as a source: "Stimson would ultimately conclude that if the United States had guaranteed the Japanese that they would retain their Emperor, they would have surrendered and therefore ended the war early, possibly making the use of atomic bombs unnecessary."
I believe this is a straightforward summary of the source. ElijahBosley modified the sentence to read, "With hindsight, Stimson later speculated that if the United States had earlier acceded to the Japanese demand that they retain their Emperor (as the ultimate terms of surrender did) the war might have ended sooner, possibly making the use of atomic bombs unnecessary."
The phrase "with hindsight" is an editorial addition not included in the source, and appears to have no purpose other than to dismiss Stimson's judgment. The word "speculate" is a WP:WEASEL word with the same effect, only more egregious. The use of the phrase "acceded to the Japanese demand" has no relation to the source text, nor does the editorial addition, "as the ultimate terms of the surrender did."
Lastly, the end of the sentence as modified appears, almost comically (almost certainly unintentionally) to suggest that the war might have ended, but the bombs been dropped anyway.
I'm sorry to be so harsh but I can't see a single positive outcome of this edit and have restored my original sentence. - Darouet ( talk) 22:33, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Only on the question of the Emperor did Stimson take, in 1945, a conciliatory view; only on this question did he later believe that history might find that the United States, by its delay in stating its position, had prolonged the war.
— Stimson and Bundy, "On Active Service in Peace and War" (1948), pp. 628-629
In the light of the formidable problem which thus confronted us, I felt that every possible step should be taken to compel a surrender of the homelands, and withdrawal of Japanese troops from the Asiatic mainland and from other positions, before we had commenced an invasion. We held two cards to assist us in such an effort. One was the traditional veneration in which the Japanese Emperor was held by his subjects and he power which was thus vested in him over his loyal troops. It was for this reason that I suggested in my memorandum of July 2 that his dynasty should be continued. The second card was the use of the atomic bomb in the manner best calculated to persuade that Emperor and the counselors about him to submit to our demand for what was essentially unconditional surrender, placing his immense power over his people and his troops subject to our orders.
There have been changes to the age in the title for Stimson's portrait as a child. But there is no clear date on the original Wiki-images file, it says "circa." So maybe best to say "Stimson as a child with Mimi the cat" and not try to pin down his age. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 16:24, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
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Stimpson's oft-quoted "gentlemen" line may have been driven by budgetary constraints; as well, the Army was then establishing Signals Intelligence Service (noted in Hughes-Wilson, Military Intelligence Blunders and Cover-Ups, 1999 & 2004) under Friedman, who was unquestionably the most brilliant cryptanalyst of his generation, & the perceived need for MI-8 may have diminished. Or we may conclude Stimpson was less scrupulous than he pretended. Trekphiler 00:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
FURTHER TO THE ABOVE:
From reading multiple sources, long ago, my understanding is as follows. Sec. Stimpson made a walking tour of the Cryptology section, overseen by Herbert O. Yardley. Yardley was anxious to please and impress his sour-pussed visitor. He mentioned proudly the names of various nations whose code had been cracked, but this got no reaction from Stimson, verbal or nonverbal. Finally Yardley said: "Of course, we can read all VATICAN traffic." It was at this point that Stimson spun on his heel and walked out. The quote was not, I believe, spoken to Yardley and his staff but included in the written document that dissolved MI-8 one or two days later.
What history overlooks here is this. Cryptology is like a game with offense and defense. Each nation engages Both Ways in a contest with each other nation. If the Vatican had coders and decoders for their own traffic, it is a fair guess that some effort went into decoding traffic of Others, particularly codes of the Italian government. It is hardly imaginable to me that if Herbert O. Yardley had sailed for Rome in 1930 and asked if there might be a job for him in the Vatican, that he would have been turned down because Pope Pius XI felt that gentlemen did not read other gentlemen's mail. A companion quote is "spying is the world's second oldest profession". Cryptology serves motivations and needs of those deliberately engaged in world power contests. It is not necessary to encode data such as genuflections per month or soap consumption to launder cassocks.
Trylon 13:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Where is the source of this famous quote? According to some sources, it wasn't written or said in 1929, but was a justification written in 1948 of closing down MI-8. Hexmaster, 213.66.100.72 21:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm slightly surprised by the following statement:
"They honeymooned in the Japanese city of Kyoto, which such made an impression on him that in 1945 it led him to veto the dropping of an atomic bomb on the city, which was one of the four shortlisted targets."
Is this really how such major decisions are made? This same assertion was made in the Notes & Queries section of The Guardian yesterday (by one Tomo Katagiri of Edinburgh) and I came here to check it out.
In the external links section is a link to a selection of Stimson's diary and papers relating to the bomb selected and annotated by Doug Long. Section 8 includes the following, referring to a discussion with President Truman (notes by Doug Long in square brackets):
Could we perhaps have some source for the honeymoon theory. If there is any basis for thinking it was a factor in Stimson's decision then it should be included. -- Spondoolicks 14:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
References
And his protest against the Morgenthau Plan ??? -- 172.178.219.147 08:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
-- 172.178.219.147 14:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Pearl harbor conspiracy theorists are fond of making much of Stimson's diary entries in the months prior to December 7th.
1973), entry for October 16, 1941. as cited in [2]
UNlike the conspiracy theorists, the author of the Princeton book honestly points out, the evidence is suggestive rather than conclusive. You look at a particular straw in the wind and it proves nothing, but as you gather evidence, each brushstroke is added and gradually a larger picture takes shape. Personally I have no conclusion about what the American leadership were thinking. They clearly were aware of Japanese intentions and their past propensity for "surprize attacks". There were some random orders that suggest there were attempts to engineer incidents- though much smaller in scale than the Pearl Harbor attack.
WP does not have the space to list such voluminous "brushstrokes". Nonetheless, the particular facts need to be reported, and my inclination is to include them without interpretation or conclusions drawn.
What the leadership was thinking is enormously important historically, so something really should be said concerning some of the more notable Stimson diary entries.
How does that sound to folks? - Mak 16:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Did he do nothing of note between Pearl Harbour and Nagasaki? Andycjp 08:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Mr Rjensen, the text you inserted some months back that Stimson halted the Morgenthau plan smells very much like unsubstantiated POV to me. And your refusal to include my sentence that makes it less misleading to the reader is certainly POV, i.e. that although the plan was not formaly implemented it did influence policy. Now, you obviously have much spare time, so I wonder if you would oblige me by reading maybe 30 pages from a book available online.
The sections:
and
This might also be beneficial to take a peek at. * The Road Ahead: Lessons in Nation Building from Japan, Germany, and Afghanistan for Postwar Iraq, by Ray Salvatore Jennings May 2003, Peaceworks No. 49, United States Institute of Peace
Or you could bother to read the suggested reading in the Morgenthau plan article.
-- Stor stark7 Talk 21:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Mr Rjensen, please stop weasling! You know very well what my beef with you is about, so don’t try to sidestep the issue.
You had written “Stimson thus retained overall control of the U.S. occupation zone in Germany, and the Morgenthau plan never went into effect.”
The last part of that sentence misleads the reader to think that this is the end all of the subject!
My addition of the sentence “It did however end up influencing U.S. policy in the early occupation years.” was promptly deleted by you with some weak excuse relating to Eisenhower.
You then proceed to sidestep my suggestion that you read some literature that deals with the policies that were in fact effected in Germany (Such as JCS 1067 which had it‘s origin in the Morgenthau Plan) and their origins, by referring to the fact that that they don’t mention Stimpson. Mr Jensen, please don’t lie. Ray Salvatore Jennings report does indeed mention Stimson!
You then have the gall to suggest that I read a book that you obviously have not read yourself!
Let me quote from the book in question (paperback issue) to you:
Page 233. Refering to Truman’s signing of the governing directive to the U.S. occupation forces in Germany, the JCS 1067/8 on May 10, 1945: ..Morgenthau told his staff that Truman’s endorsement was a “big day for the treasury”. He just hoped that “somebody doesn’t recognize it as the Morgenthau Plan.” He wrote to his sons that the directive to Eisenhower was plenty tough, and if carried out at all in the spirit in which it is conceived, I don’t see how Germany can rise to make war again for at least another fifty years.”
Page 270. On August 9, 1945, at a meeting between Stimson and Eisenhower and Clay discussing the JCS 1067/8 “He [Stimson] warned that “no matter how vindictive” Americans felt now, unless Clay restored “an economic life” to the Germans, he would be “repudiated by the very people who gave you these instructions.” Stimson adviced Clay, “Sure, you’ve got to live with 1067.” But they mustn’t “let this country starve to death.”.
Lets turn to another source, one of which I listed above in my first post. Ray Salvatore Jennings report: A few snippets from what it has to say of the JCS 1067, (there is lots more) :
Mr Rjensen, please stop misleading the readers by pushing your POV that there were no effects of the Morgenthau Plan.
-- Stor stark7 Talk 20:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Sec'y Stimson & Gen. Grant, Lawn Party, Gov's Island http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/09400/09435v.jpg (Library of Congress http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/ggbain.09435) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bear1952 ( talk • contribs) 01:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised his membership in "The Committee of Three" is left out. Along with Stimson, it included former Japanese Ambassador Joseph Grew and Admiral Forrester who all agreed it would've been wiser to take a softer more 'face-saving' line by war's end with the Japanese and despite Stimson's invaluable participation with Britain to create the atom bombs, the committee was, to my surprise, against our unconditional surrender terms, had written the Potsdam Delcaration differently than announced & against prolonging the war(in their opinion) to use the bombs, especially on civilians. None of which I learnt till recently. All of which is the opposite of my prior impression of Stimson.
Until I learnt about this, I did not know they wrote the original Potsdam Declaration, that they were against unconditional surrender, initially offered to let the Japanese keep their Emperor but that Byrnes and Truman had infuriated them by re-writing the declaration themselves to exclude that vital offer. In fact, I had a completely different picture of Stimson in my mind till recently.
From the bios I read on these men, they believed we could have ended the war earlier and on better terms for us and worse terms for Stalin and the communists if we'd kept with the original text and 'softer line'. We knew Stalin wasn't forwarding Japan's capitulation negotiation requests from decoding Japan's own diplomatic codes. Stimson, who took the original hard line on the Japanese over Manchuria, was crucial to the atomic bombs being realized, yet to his change in attitude by war's end seems important to me.
According to the Oxford encyclopedia on WWII, recent documents 'prised' out of archival shelters and secrecy acts indicate a very different picture of Stimson than commonly portrayed to date. They quote his released biography 'History might find that the United States, in its delay in stating its position on unconditional surrender terms, had prolonged the war.' This is a very different picture of Stimson than I learnt in history classes 20-30 years ago. I only learnt of this studying Ambassador Grew who was similarily quoted: Grew stated, "If surrender could have been brought about in May 1945 or even in June or July before the entrance of Soviet Russia into the war and the use of the atomic bomb, the world would have been the gainer." I never heard of this 'Committee of Three' nor their protesting of unconditional surrender, the Potsdam Declaration, use of atom bomb and Stimson's concerns over the War Crime Trials too.
It seems a shame to leave out this very important change of attitude and participation by leaving out "The Committee of Three" altogether.
Sadly it might have saved all sides many lives and we might have been in a better position to prevent the spread of communism throughout East Asia settling with Japan before Stalin got his foot in the door.
Therefore, I just think it's an important aspect of his life and career if not legacy(total reversal of my perception personally) that is worthy of mention and expounding.(along with Grew and Forrestal).
Any supporters to this inclusion and expounding? TheBalderdasher ( talk) 20:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
How about if we just call him Republican? Or drop the party affiliation from the lede altogether? The meaning of Progressive has changed since Stimson'stime, and so has Conservative. Progressives: Teddy Roosevelt who invaded Cuba, was considered Progressive. And he was also conservative, our first major conservationist. Back when conservatives were known for wanting to conserve trees. Go figure. The labels are kinda beside the point and mentioning in the lede Stimson's political affiliation seems like overemphasis: makes it sound like all that mattered was his party politics. That did matter, don't get me wrong, Roosevelt needed bipartisan support for the war he knew was coming. But Stimson was the guy who mobilized a reluctant American to take on the strongest, deadliest, military power on earth. That is more important than party affiliation, or ideological label. Both proved to be beside the point facing the emergency of world war. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 00:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
How could Stimson be "born into a family long involved in Republican Party politics" when he was born in 1867 and the Republican party was at the time only 12 years old, emerging "out of a coalition of anti-slavery Whigs and Free Soil Democrats" in 1854 and receiving its name only in 1855? ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 23:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
We've waited a year for the "citation needed" template to bear fruit. But no substantiation of that "family long involved in Republican politics" phrase and there is no indication Stimson's father, a surgeon, had any political involvement whatever. So out it goes. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 15:29, 21 June 2012 (UTC
Henry L. Stimson's obituary, published in the New Yirk Times at this death, claims he was from NY and his father was a wealthy financier, not a surgeon. LindaK19 ( talk) 19:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)LindaK19
I believe that the Stimson quote regarding "maneuver[ing] the Japanese into firing the first shot" should either be put in full context or removed from this page. Without a very lengthy analysis of the context, the quote conveys the idea that Pearl Harbor was an "inside job," which is rejected by most reputable historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HannaBarberaFanatic ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There is no proof to say that the person Doug Long forged and created the Stimson diary himself. He just copied and pasted the information and by adding commentaries himself. The writings on the Doug Long page is long and detailed and is the copy and paste of the Stimson papers that many Americans don't want to show, because it reveals the truth including his heart attack scares and other details that Americans don't want to know or care because it is contradicting the norm and propaganda that was fed to the US after the bombing. I say Doug Long just copied and pasted the info and there is no proof that he wrote the 9 pages himself. This is Stimson's writing and careful and detailed search of his papers in other websites and libraries will recreate these diaries.
Doug Long is obviously little critical of the bombing, and the reverts done by certain people are of the opposite view and I think there should be middle ground. I'm in the middle. I'm not blaming anything but I'm trying to show the human aspect of this atomic bombing so that people can get the whole picture. Nobody is perfect and I'm trying to show that. Careful analysis of these kinds of histories are essential for the future generation. Falsities will create more falsities. 75.70.142.23 ( talk) 16:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The language in these two sections seems oddly skewed.
Re: Atomic Bomb First: The analysis of the three days between Hiroshima and Nagasaki as "nothing seemed to happen" rather than "with no surrender being offered during this time" or something more specific is troubling. The war didn't just 'stop' for three days. Events, rather than nothing, was still happening. I'm not an expert on Wikipedia policy (clearly), but isn't clarity and adherence to the denotative value of words a basic value of an enycolopaedia?
Secondly: Considering the next part of the phrase: "he had Truman drop "Fat Man" on Nagasaki on August 9". The denotative value of this phrase is that Stimson ultimately made the call to bomb Nagasaki. While certainly influential over Truman, "encouraged" would be a more accurate turn of phrase. Further, General Groves and Admiral Purnell had long advocated use of two bombs in a 1-2 punch, which makes the portrayal of Stimson as the unilateral force behind the bomb even more suspect. Additionally, as the intended target was Kokura with Nagasaki as a secondary target, the sentence is objectively wrong from that perspective as well. The decision to bomb Nagasaki was made by Bocks Car pilot Charles Sweeney after three failed passes at Kokura.
Finally: The final line "The Japanese offered to surrender on August 10" directly implies that the Japanese decided to surrender as a direct result of the nuclear war, but the article fails to make this an actual position. Given that a discussion of surrendering was already occurring on the ninth, and the importance of the Soviet invasion, this line ultimately constitutes grave content bias. The surrender of Japan article gives a much clearer picture of events, and fundamentally links the Soviet Invasion into the key events. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#August_8.E2.80.939:_Soviet_invasion_and_Nagasaki
Regarding: "Stimson's Vision" The language in the first line is clearly biased, and the first line has nothing to do with the rest of the section. Let's review:
"In retrospect historians debate whether the impact of continued blockade, relentless bombing, and the Russian invasion of Manchuria would have somehow forced the Emperor to surrender sometime in late 1945 or early 1946 even without the atomic bombs (though not without very large numbers of Japanese casualties.)" --- This entire sentence should be removed.
First: The use of "retrospect" is wholly redundant, as all historians consider things in retrospect. Rather, the connotation here is that these views are less valuable because they are being made in hindsight, similar to someone dismissing something with "hindsight is 20/20".
Second: The use of "somehow" colours these historians views as flimsy, and could be removed from the sentence without changing its meaning at all.
Third: The use of "even" is inappropriate for the same reason as "somehow". It does not change the meaning of the sentence other than to imply that without the atomic bombs, ending the war would be much harder. As this sentence is purporting to discuss the views of revisionist historians and not the metaphorical difficulty of stopping Japan sans A-bomb, this seems inappropriate.
Fourth: The parenthetical "(though not without very large numbers of Japanese casualties.)" appears to be an editorial comment, unless all revisionist historians have asides in their work where they confirm that this alternative course of action would have caused great numbers of Japanese casualties. I do not see how this parenthetical has any place in the article.
Fifth: The citation for this sentence says "for "revisionists" who reject use of the bomb, see Gar Alperovitz..." This appears to be a comment directed entirely at revisionist readers – it literally says "for 'revisionists'" – to support a pro-bombing POV, rather than a citation providing evidence of revisionist historian claims.
Sixth: This sentence seems completely unnecessary to the rest of the paragraph, which pretty much just goes on to fawn over Stimson for what a genius he is. The conjuction "but", which leads to the rest of the paragraph, is used to fabricate a connection; however, there is no direct contrast or connection between these historians' views and Stimson's nuclear philosophies, which are the subject of the rest of the paragraph.
To Conclude: Both the jus ad bellum for the atomic bombings and the Surrender of Japan are extremely complicated topics. Both subjects have their own wikipedia articles (see below) that should be linked to directly. That said, as the discussion of historical revisionism and jus ad bellum consists of only a single flawed sentence with little relation to the rest of the article, it should probably be removed from the article entirely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
> Once again, Stimson defied all criticism about his age by proving that he was still as prescient and on top of his game as ever.
lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.43.3.130 ( talk) 19:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
In his biography "The First Wise Man," David F. Schmitz writes of Stimson the following: "Although he would later become the leading public defender of the use of the bombs, Stimson was not comfortable with all the decisions made at the time nor in complete agreement with the use of the bomb as a diplomatic weapon. In the end, he concluded that providing the Japanese with some sort of guarantee of retaining the Emperor would have shortened the war and possibly made the use of the atomic bombs unnecessary."
I added the following sentence with Schmitz as a source: "Stimson would ultimately conclude that if the United States had guaranteed the Japanese that they would retain their Emperor, they would have surrendered and therefore ended the war early, possibly making the use of atomic bombs unnecessary."
I believe this is a straightforward summary of the source. ElijahBosley modified the sentence to read, "With hindsight, Stimson later speculated that if the United States had earlier acceded to the Japanese demand that they retain their Emperor (as the ultimate terms of surrender did) the war might have ended sooner, possibly making the use of atomic bombs unnecessary."
The phrase "with hindsight" is an editorial addition not included in the source, and appears to have no purpose other than to dismiss Stimson's judgment. The word "speculate" is a WP:WEASEL word with the same effect, only more egregious. The use of the phrase "acceded to the Japanese demand" has no relation to the source text, nor does the editorial addition, "as the ultimate terms of the surrender did."
Lastly, the end of the sentence as modified appears, almost comically (almost certainly unintentionally) to suggest that the war might have ended, but the bombs been dropped anyway.
I'm sorry to be so harsh but I can't see a single positive outcome of this edit and have restored my original sentence. - Darouet ( talk) 22:33, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Only on the question of the Emperor did Stimson take, in 1945, a conciliatory view; only on this question did he later believe that history might find that the United States, by its delay in stating its position, had prolonged the war.
— Stimson and Bundy, "On Active Service in Peace and War" (1948), pp. 628-629
In the light of the formidable problem which thus confronted us, I felt that every possible step should be taken to compel a surrender of the homelands, and withdrawal of Japanese troops from the Asiatic mainland and from other positions, before we had commenced an invasion. We held two cards to assist us in such an effort. One was the traditional veneration in which the Japanese Emperor was held by his subjects and he power which was thus vested in him over his loyal troops. It was for this reason that I suggested in my memorandum of July 2 that his dynasty should be continued. The second card was the use of the atomic bomb in the manner best calculated to persuade that Emperor and the counselors about him to submit to our demand for what was essentially unconditional surrender, placing his immense power over his people and his troops subject to our orders.
There have been changes to the age in the title for Stimson's portrait as a child. But there is no clear date on the original Wiki-images file, it says "circa." So maybe best to say "Stimson as a child with Mimi the cat" and not try to pin down his age. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 16:24, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
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