This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Henry H. Bauer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The last two sentences in this article were copied directly from [ [1]]. Direct quotes should always be set off with quotation marks or otherwise designated as such. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC) I removed them. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing a prod that stated:
Bauer's notability not established per WP:NOTE and WP:PROF. If he was indeed trained as a chemist, he does not seem to have contributed to the field for at least thirty years. He seems to be an obscure hobby writer on Loch Ness, AIDS denialism and other pseudoscience topics, not a recognized expert in his field. The sources for this article are inadequate, Bauer's own website and a college newsletter. [2]
I think that I have addressed the issues on the prod: he has made over the time regular contributions with books, papers and articles, on Isis (journal) his Loch Ness monster got reviewed, he seems a recognized expert on the field of the study of the scientific method, with his book "Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method" being used on university courses and cited on studies about what texts are used for education, and I have added a few more sources. With all above, and with having been a Emeritus Dean and still being a Emeritus Professor for Virginia Tech, it should fulfill WP:PROF criteria -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
looks like there is another famous Henry Bauer [3], so maybe the redirect Henry Bauer will become a stub some day. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Doh, I am now going through the article history, and turns out that there was already a quite complete wiki article on him [4]. I also found a transcript of one of his seminars hosted on that same site, which I have added as a source. I'll keep reviewing the history and adding stuff that I find there -- Enric Naval ( talk) 02:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Based on original research of primary document (course syllabi and the like):
"like the Scientific Inquiry common core course of Mercer University, [1], the Victorian Physics course of La Trobe University [2] and the Philosophy of Science course at Cap Poly Pomona [3] is cited on articles on scholar texts about the scientific method [4] and has a version for blind people at the Library of Congress. [5]"
I would suggest omitting this unless there's a second-party source reporting how Bauer's book is used in courses. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 16:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
has been listed on the bibliography for several university courses[1][2][3]
References
This article [5] does not belong on the affirmative actions section. I haven't finished reading it, but I already saw that Bauer mentions several foreign students and women as examples of good students.
It doesn't belong either on the controversy section. Ask any US teacher and they will tell you that academic standards are falling, and he's not the only one complaining about it (this is also happening in Spain, mind you). Looking at google, I can't find sources complaining about the article or saying that it's controversial, I only see articles and forum posts agreeing with him and listing his paper as one more resource, and no mentions of controversy.
Finally, he doesn't blame students, he blames the culture in which they were raised and other stuff as "low standards, low expectations, grade inflation", and he says that he keeps finding students that still perform well. Near the end, he says "As I noted at the outset, the students cannot be blamed because what they are is the result of how we have trained them, at home and in primary and secondary schools. By the time they are in college, the room for alternative training is narrow."
I moved the paper out of that section and expanded the sentence to explain that. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The question has arisen whether the main source for Bauer's retraction of his views of homosexuality should be his own web site or a "secondary source" such as aids-truth.
I do think that giving aids-truth pride of place would be applying Wikipedia's secondary sources principle incorrectly. As a lawyer, I can tell you that the best evidence of what somebody said is what he said, not what some third party said he said. (That's called hearsay.) Moreover, one could take this interpretation of the secondary sources principle to an infinite, absurd, regress: Why quote aids-truth talking about Bauer when we could quote some other source quoting aids-truth quoting about Bauer? And why quote that source when we could quote yet another source quoting the third source quoting the second source quoting Bauer? Etc.
Note also that I kept in my edit (and attributed to aids-truth) what I think is the important claim that aids-truth makes regarding the timing of Bauer's retraction.
Finally, I should say, for what it's worth, that I have no brief here regarding Bauer himself. I never even heard his name until I came across the wiki article while I was looking for something else. I have no particular wish to defend the man or to "tilt" the article one way or the other. I was struck, though, by the indirect way that the article reported what should have just been quoted directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by P.D. ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
ber 2008 (UTC)
Undent: Let's try this again: a speech transcript, a novel, and a personal blog by Henry Bauer are all primary sources. WP:PRIMARY states that "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."
You correctly point out that primary sources can in some cases be used as sources about a party in question. I'm not sure if a personal blog of a marginally notable person qualifies, but never mind. When using such a primary source, though, you can't simply inject your own opinion of the primary source. From your example, "denunciation" summarises the material from the secondary source. If you disagree with the wording, you are welcome to propose alternative language. On the other hand, talk of "retractions," let alone "formally retracted," is "original analysis of the primary-source material" and is discouraged on Wikipedia.
I am not going to edit-war with you on this minor point, based as it is on an apparent confusion about primary and secondary sources on WP. Please take any further complaints about Wikipedia policies to the policy talk pages, not my talk. Thank you. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 18:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Last word, I hope: Wikipedia:Use_common_sense P.D. ( talk) 01:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest in Henry Bauer, but please note that the term "AIDS denialist" is notably and verifiably used in reliable sources to describe those, like Henry Bauer, who deny that HIV exists, causes AIDS, etc. The term has been the subject of several discussions, including RfCs, in which a consensus on its use on Wikipedia has emerged. Similarly, Henry Bauer, as reported in multiple sources, has been a vocal opponent of affirmative action. You may personally consider "AIDS denialist" or "opponent of affirmative action" to be slurs, but Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not personal opinions. Thank you, Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 20:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)How about "supporter of AIDS denialism" or "[[AIDS denialism|denies that HIV causes AIDS]]"? Just don't call people denialist. Use more neutral wordings. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)The term has already been the subject of RfC, and I agree with MastCell that this isn't a BLP issue. In addition to Orangemarlin's arguments, the term "dissident" implies some sort of "separate but equal" stature in the relevant community (science or medicine), which very few denialists have. At the same time, some reliable sources do use the term. The solution is to use the term accepted by the relevant communities ("AIDS denialist") and to mention that the named fringe group prefers the term "dissident". This is exactly what AIDS denialism does. Any compromise beyond this ignores WP:UNDUE. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 20:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
My bad, he does deny that authentic HIV virions have been isolated -- Enric Naval ( talk) 19:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
One thing. Looking at his latest article from Fall of 2008 [21] he doesn't deny that the HIV retrovirus exists. What he denies that a) the HIV test accurately detects the retrovirus b)the HIV retrovirus be the cause of AIDS illness. I don't know if he previously held that HIV itself didn't exist, but, unless I read that paper incorrectly, he currently accepts the existance of the HIV retrovirus. He also makes a statement on 2007 "doctors, scientists, and others who question whether human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)" [22]. The sentence "questioned that HIV caused AIDS" appears to be accurate to me... It could maybe be expanded to "questioned the accuracy of HIV tests, and that HIV causes AIDS" -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
|
He devotes much more space to another inevitable question: "How could so many scientists be wrong about HIV/AIDS?" Here he is on his own territory, having been active in the field of history and philosophy of science for a number of years. Part of his answer is both pertinent and indisputable: science and medicine often progress precisely by disproving well-established and universally accepted theories, and he cites important examples, from the bacterial cause of ulcer formation to the phlogiston theory of combustion, from modern physics to causes of kuru.
Kuhn, Popper and others get an airing, but more interestingly and originally, Bauer observes a deeper underlying cause which, not to mince words, amounts to a recent corruption of scientific research by the pressures of funding, media, conflict of interest and political interference, which lead to the formation of scientific monopolies and the erosion of the trust which is essential to the scientific enterprise. To which I would add the insidious temptation of worthy causes, of which climate change is a recent, obvious and important one: once a scientist engages with a good cause he or she very often selects or even falsifies results. However, that is another book. If you want to understand the HIV/AIDS story, read this one.
I'm looking through reviews on his books. There are reviews in Nature (journal) and Science (journal) on his Velikovsky book; these reviews are very positive and recommend at least this work of Bauer's. There's an Isis (journal) review of his lock ness book; also very positive. The only review (a quote from it is above) of his HIV/Aids book that I could find treats Bauer as a sort of Karl Popper (who for a good period of his career could, if I remember correctly, have been and was called a creationist). -- Firefly322 ( talk) 23:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The Washington Post, November 16, 1994, Wednesday, "When Sorting Fact From Fiction, Ask To See the Evidence", John Schwartz, Washington Post Staff Writer
Is global warming natural or man-made? Did an asteroid impact wipe out the dinosaurs?On these and dozens of other questions on the frontier of science, says Henry H. Bauer, a professor of chemistry and science studies at Virginia Tech, people place too much trust in the opinions of scientists arguing on one side or the other. By doing that, they give up the skepticism that is the hallmark of science and foolishly accept scientific authorities over scientific evidence. Scientific squabbles are natural, though, since science rarely proves anything outright. Instead, it disproves things very well, as new observations and theories invalidate old ideas. So instead of striding purposefully toward the truth, science generally proceeds by backing away from what's been demonstrated to be false.
Many of the things we're trying to figure out might be beyond our ability to prove, and the answers we do get might take longer than we'd like. "We've become so enraptured with all the goodies science has brought us, we fall into the thinking that science can get us the goodies we want immediately -- and that is sometimes not the case," Bauer says.And some topics simply don't lend themselves to scientific analysis: like trying to use pliers to drive nails, the tools don't fit the job. No telescope will ever find God, and no experiment could prove one religion better than another. The idea that it's so hard to prove something doesn't sit well with people who want a lot of certainty in their lives. "We want certainty when what science offers us is different degrees of possibility or plausibility," Bauer said. Of course, unsatisfying results aren't limited to the world of science. A jury doesn't find a defendant "innocent," after all -- merely "not guilty."
Still, Bauer said, "Around the late 19th century, science sort of took the place of religion as the authority in society. And then to have to realize that what we've accepted as the authority doesn't have any certain answers is hard to swallow."
One of Bauer's theses on HIV is that Africans (and people of African descent) test positive for HIV not because they are infected, but because of some inherent difference between their race and others. Inherent differences are the result of genetic mutations. Bauer does not propose what these mutations might be. He hypothesises that they might exist. The phrase "supposed genetic mutations" is thus an accurate description of Bauer's beliefs, which are supported by no evidence. Adding more to this wording, as editor A5 has recently done, is at odds with WP:WEIGHT, a guideline meant to ensure that pseudoscientific beliefs are not presented disproportionately, i.e. as if they were credible. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 14:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that a book by Bauer is widely used in university courses. A secondary source is needed to support this statement. Google searches and original research are insufficient. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 21:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Bauer is by no means the "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist", as the deleted Seth Kalichman quote asserts. The quote is factually wrong and unnecessarily defamatory. As Lenny Bruce's character Father Flotsky once famously remarked in "Father Flotsky's Triumph": "Killing six children, Dutch, doesn't make anybody bad." And, in the present case, disageeing with a medico-scientific consensus does not make anyone a "pseudoscientist". Bauer himself discusses several medical controversies in which the long-standing medical consensus was overthrown after many years of contention, such as the case of the cause of ulcers, in which the H. pylori model eventually triumphed. Obviously, a medico-scientific consensus can be wrong. The cholesterol model of heart disease is another area whose primacy has been challenged with mixed success since 1969 by Dr. Kilmer McCully and others with the "homocysteine model". In Beyond Velikovsky, Bauer actually justified his "belief" in the possibility of the existence of the Loch Ness Monster against the possibility of accusations by such as Kalichman. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 17:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I saw those words ("a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist") and I couldn't make any sense of them, what the hell is a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist?. Couldn't you just use Kalichman to source that Bauer has not made himself any AIDS research (which seems to be correct), and work from there? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 20:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Kalichman's calling Bauer "a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist" is a non sequitur in its context, as explained previously, and Bauer is demonstrably not a pseudoscientist, there is no good purpose served by quoting Kalichman, except to unjustifiably denigrate Bauer's reputation, which is a violation of WP:BLP. Disagreeing with a consensus, such as "HIV causes AIDS", does not automatically make anyone a pseudoscientist. It is unethical to quote Kalichman in this regard, regardless how "verifiable" the quote. My persistence on this issue has nothing to do with COI. It is simple matter of fairness and equity. Please note furthermore, that Kalichman is not notable enough so far to merit a biographical entry in Wikipedia and he cannot be considered a "reliable" source in the light of his illogical accusation against Bauer as a "pseudoscientist", whose books on Velikovsky, Loch Ness Monster, and Scientific Literacy were published by University of Illinois Press which as a matter of policy does not publish pseudoscientific tracts, as opposed to reasoned analyses of interest in such topics, including "the more general question of the acceptance and rejection of extraordinary claims by the scientific community", as Marcello Truzzi observed with respect to Bauer's The Enigma of Loch Ness: Making Sense of a Mystery (1986). Phaedrus7 ( talk) 19:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Editors make it their "business to decide" all sorts of things in considering content for an entry, including what constitutes a "reliable source", which status is often a function of the prejudices of an editor or cabal of editors intent on enforcing a "party line" for an entry, such as protecting Carl Sagan from corrections to the well-documented errors he made in criticizing Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision. I agree that the identity of a publisher may presumptively qualify a text as a "reliable source", but not concerning text that is ipso facto erroneous or nonsensical, as is the case in labelling a person with a Ph.D. in chemisty a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist", which among other things is gratuitiously demeaning. It should also be noted that one need not have performed research in a particular area to be qualified to perform a survey of the literature in that field, such as HIV/AIDS, and draw conclusions therefrom, as Bauer has done. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 20:18, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The dictionary definition for "libel" makes no distinction between "opinion" or adjudicated fact, as follows: "a statement or representation published without just cause or excuse . . . tending to expose another to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule." Therefore, the fallacious labelling of Henry Bauer a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist" is libelous. The labelling is fallacious because it is based on the false premise that Bauer has done no scientific research. That Bauer has not done laboratory research on HIV/AIDS is beside the point because any experienced scientific researcher is qualified to evaluate the published research results of others, as Bauer has done on the subject of HIV/AIDS. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 00:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
MastCell, you seem to have missed the point. Kalichman uses the false accusation that Bauer has done no scientific research as part of his justification for labelling Bauer a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist". Were you to read for meaning what Bauer has actually written, you would see that he adhers to the methodology of science in making the case that the promoters of HIV/AIDS have NOT done so. Furthermore, using this derogatory charge in the biography of a living person violates WP:BLP. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This entire article seems to be designed as a personal attack on Bauer, used to discredit his views (which are given hardly attention at all). He's dismissed as a crackpot. Yet he has written a very interesting and well-researched book on scientific literacy.
I wonder if it is because he is critical of the scientific mainstream that our WP contributors have ganged up on him like this. They seem to be arguing that if he holds unpopular views on homosexuality or AIDS, his book must be wrong (see ad hominem).
Perhaps the best antidote to this bias would be for us to the views put forth in his book, Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 21:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that calm response. It's interesting that Bauer's recent AIDS denialism has attracted attention, but I suppose the best to move forward is to describe his scientific method book. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 19:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
For all the calumny heaped upon Henry Bauer for his AIDS denialism, as though only an out-and-out crackpot could ever endorse such a belief, it came as a surprise to me this afternoon browsing the current Discover Presents GENIUS issue at Border's magazine rack that Kary Mullis, who was awarded a Nobel Prize for his work on the polymerase chain reaction, and evolutionary biologist Lynn Margulis, who is known for her theory of symbiotic evolution, both believe there is no evidence that HIV causes AIDS; see pp. 94-95. These facts should be kept in mind while contemplating a revisioning of the entry for Henry Bauer. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me, but the definition of the argument from authority explicitly engages the correctness of the position, not the credentials of the particular individuals holding a belief. Bauer, Mullis and Margulis may well not be correct in their belief concerning HIV/AIDS, but the point here is that Bauer's challenge to the HIV/AIDS model should not be dismissed, disparaged and disrespected as though he were some off-the-wall crackpot when other distinguished scientists hold the same opinion concerning HIV/AIDS. The fact that the HIV/AIDS establishment opposes the deniers does not necessarily mean the deniers are wrong. The history of medicine is replete with examples of treatments whose efficacy was successfully challenged and replaced, often after a long and acrimonious opposition. As Martin Bernal noted in Black Athena, it is often outsiders to a field that are most qualified to challenge the status quo because insiders have a vested interest and tend to lack perspective and a proper critical bearing. Just as there are criteria for determining what constitutes a "reliable source", so, too, there are criteria, perhaps not as codified, for determining who is qualified or competent to propose a responsible challenge to a scientific status quo. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The two references for the statement "based upon the substantial body of research confirming that HIV exists, is infectious, causes AIDS, and that HIV tests are accurate.[25][26]" are currently dead links.
I'd suggest replacing them with "The Evidence That HIV Causes AIDS" http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Understanding/howHIVCausesAIDS/pages/hivcausesaids.aspx
and "HIV is the cause of AIDS" http://www.avert.org/hiv-causes-aids.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by On A Leash ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Henry H. Bauer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Henry H. Bauer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The last two sentences in this article were copied directly from [ [1]]. Direct quotes should always be set off with quotation marks or otherwise designated as such. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC) I removed them. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 15:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing a prod that stated:
Bauer's notability not established per WP:NOTE and WP:PROF. If he was indeed trained as a chemist, he does not seem to have contributed to the field for at least thirty years. He seems to be an obscure hobby writer on Loch Ness, AIDS denialism and other pseudoscience topics, not a recognized expert in his field. The sources for this article are inadequate, Bauer's own website and a college newsletter. [2]
I think that I have addressed the issues on the prod: he has made over the time regular contributions with books, papers and articles, on Isis (journal) his Loch Ness monster got reviewed, he seems a recognized expert on the field of the study of the scientific method, with his book "Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method" being used on university courses and cited on studies about what texts are used for education, and I have added a few more sources. With all above, and with having been a Emeritus Dean and still being a Emeritus Professor for Virginia Tech, it should fulfill WP:PROF criteria -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
looks like there is another famous Henry Bauer [3], so maybe the redirect Henry Bauer will become a stub some day. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Doh, I am now going through the article history, and turns out that there was already a quite complete wiki article on him [4]. I also found a transcript of one of his seminars hosted on that same site, which I have added as a source. I'll keep reviewing the history and adding stuff that I find there -- Enric Naval ( talk) 02:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Based on original research of primary document (course syllabi and the like):
"like the Scientific Inquiry common core course of Mercer University, [1], the Victorian Physics course of La Trobe University [2] and the Philosophy of Science course at Cap Poly Pomona [3] is cited on articles on scholar texts about the scientific method [4] and has a version for blind people at the Library of Congress. [5]"
I would suggest omitting this unless there's a second-party source reporting how Bauer's book is used in courses. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 16:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
has been listed on the bibliography for several university courses[1][2][3]
References
This article [5] does not belong on the affirmative actions section. I haven't finished reading it, but I already saw that Bauer mentions several foreign students and women as examples of good students.
It doesn't belong either on the controversy section. Ask any US teacher and they will tell you that academic standards are falling, and he's not the only one complaining about it (this is also happening in Spain, mind you). Looking at google, I can't find sources complaining about the article or saying that it's controversial, I only see articles and forum posts agreeing with him and listing his paper as one more resource, and no mentions of controversy.
Finally, he doesn't blame students, he blames the culture in which they were raised and other stuff as "low standards, low expectations, grade inflation", and he says that he keeps finding students that still perform well. Near the end, he says "As I noted at the outset, the students cannot be blamed because what they are is the result of how we have trained them, at home and in primary and secondary schools. By the time they are in college, the room for alternative training is narrow."
I moved the paper out of that section and expanded the sentence to explain that. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The question has arisen whether the main source for Bauer's retraction of his views of homosexuality should be his own web site or a "secondary source" such as aids-truth.
I do think that giving aids-truth pride of place would be applying Wikipedia's secondary sources principle incorrectly. As a lawyer, I can tell you that the best evidence of what somebody said is what he said, not what some third party said he said. (That's called hearsay.) Moreover, one could take this interpretation of the secondary sources principle to an infinite, absurd, regress: Why quote aids-truth talking about Bauer when we could quote some other source quoting aids-truth quoting about Bauer? And why quote that source when we could quote yet another source quoting the third source quoting the second source quoting Bauer? Etc.
Note also that I kept in my edit (and attributed to aids-truth) what I think is the important claim that aids-truth makes regarding the timing of Bauer's retraction.
Finally, I should say, for what it's worth, that I have no brief here regarding Bauer himself. I never even heard his name until I came across the wiki article while I was looking for something else. I have no particular wish to defend the man or to "tilt" the article one way or the other. I was struck, though, by the indirect way that the article reported what should have just been quoted directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by P.D. ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
ber 2008 (UTC)
Undent: Let's try this again: a speech transcript, a novel, and a personal blog by Henry Bauer are all primary sources. WP:PRIMARY states that "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."
You correctly point out that primary sources can in some cases be used as sources about a party in question. I'm not sure if a personal blog of a marginally notable person qualifies, but never mind. When using such a primary source, though, you can't simply inject your own opinion of the primary source. From your example, "denunciation" summarises the material from the secondary source. If you disagree with the wording, you are welcome to propose alternative language. On the other hand, talk of "retractions," let alone "formally retracted," is "original analysis of the primary-source material" and is discouraged on Wikipedia.
I am not going to edit-war with you on this minor point, based as it is on an apparent confusion about primary and secondary sources on WP. Please take any further complaints about Wikipedia policies to the policy talk pages, not my talk. Thank you. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 18:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Last word, I hope: Wikipedia:Use_common_sense P.D. ( talk) 01:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest in Henry Bauer, but please note that the term "AIDS denialist" is notably and verifiably used in reliable sources to describe those, like Henry Bauer, who deny that HIV exists, causes AIDS, etc. The term has been the subject of several discussions, including RfCs, in which a consensus on its use on Wikipedia has emerged. Similarly, Henry Bauer, as reported in multiple sources, has been a vocal opponent of affirmative action. You may personally consider "AIDS denialist" or "opponent of affirmative action" to be slurs, but Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not personal opinions. Thank you, Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 20:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent)How about "supporter of AIDS denialism" or "[[AIDS denialism|denies that HIV causes AIDS]]"? Just don't call people denialist. Use more neutral wordings. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 01:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)The term has already been the subject of RfC, and I agree with MastCell that this isn't a BLP issue. In addition to Orangemarlin's arguments, the term "dissident" implies some sort of "separate but equal" stature in the relevant community (science or medicine), which very few denialists have. At the same time, some reliable sources do use the term. The solution is to use the term accepted by the relevant communities ("AIDS denialist") and to mention that the named fringe group prefers the term "dissident". This is exactly what AIDS denialism does. Any compromise beyond this ignores WP:UNDUE. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 20:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
My bad, he does deny that authentic HIV virions have been isolated -- Enric Naval ( talk) 19:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
One thing. Looking at his latest article from Fall of 2008 [21] he doesn't deny that the HIV retrovirus exists. What he denies that a) the HIV test accurately detects the retrovirus b)the HIV retrovirus be the cause of AIDS illness. I don't know if he previously held that HIV itself didn't exist, but, unless I read that paper incorrectly, he currently accepts the existance of the HIV retrovirus. He also makes a statement on 2007 "doctors, scientists, and others who question whether human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)" [22]. The sentence "questioned that HIV caused AIDS" appears to be accurate to me... It could maybe be expanded to "questioned the accuracy of HIV tests, and that HIV causes AIDS" -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
|
He devotes much more space to another inevitable question: "How could so many scientists be wrong about HIV/AIDS?" Here he is on his own territory, having been active in the field of history and philosophy of science for a number of years. Part of his answer is both pertinent and indisputable: science and medicine often progress precisely by disproving well-established and universally accepted theories, and he cites important examples, from the bacterial cause of ulcer formation to the phlogiston theory of combustion, from modern physics to causes of kuru.
Kuhn, Popper and others get an airing, but more interestingly and originally, Bauer observes a deeper underlying cause which, not to mince words, amounts to a recent corruption of scientific research by the pressures of funding, media, conflict of interest and political interference, which lead to the formation of scientific monopolies and the erosion of the trust which is essential to the scientific enterprise. To which I would add the insidious temptation of worthy causes, of which climate change is a recent, obvious and important one: once a scientist engages with a good cause he or she very often selects or even falsifies results. However, that is another book. If you want to understand the HIV/AIDS story, read this one.
I'm looking through reviews on his books. There are reviews in Nature (journal) and Science (journal) on his Velikovsky book; these reviews are very positive and recommend at least this work of Bauer's. There's an Isis (journal) review of his lock ness book; also very positive. The only review (a quote from it is above) of his HIV/Aids book that I could find treats Bauer as a sort of Karl Popper (who for a good period of his career could, if I remember correctly, have been and was called a creationist). -- Firefly322 ( talk) 23:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
The Washington Post, November 16, 1994, Wednesday, "When Sorting Fact From Fiction, Ask To See the Evidence", John Schwartz, Washington Post Staff Writer
Is global warming natural or man-made? Did an asteroid impact wipe out the dinosaurs?On these and dozens of other questions on the frontier of science, says Henry H. Bauer, a professor of chemistry and science studies at Virginia Tech, people place too much trust in the opinions of scientists arguing on one side or the other. By doing that, they give up the skepticism that is the hallmark of science and foolishly accept scientific authorities over scientific evidence. Scientific squabbles are natural, though, since science rarely proves anything outright. Instead, it disproves things very well, as new observations and theories invalidate old ideas. So instead of striding purposefully toward the truth, science generally proceeds by backing away from what's been demonstrated to be false.
Many of the things we're trying to figure out might be beyond our ability to prove, and the answers we do get might take longer than we'd like. "We've become so enraptured with all the goodies science has brought us, we fall into the thinking that science can get us the goodies we want immediately -- and that is sometimes not the case," Bauer says.And some topics simply don't lend themselves to scientific analysis: like trying to use pliers to drive nails, the tools don't fit the job. No telescope will ever find God, and no experiment could prove one religion better than another. The idea that it's so hard to prove something doesn't sit well with people who want a lot of certainty in their lives. "We want certainty when what science offers us is different degrees of possibility or plausibility," Bauer said. Of course, unsatisfying results aren't limited to the world of science. A jury doesn't find a defendant "innocent," after all -- merely "not guilty."
Still, Bauer said, "Around the late 19th century, science sort of took the place of religion as the authority in society. And then to have to realize that what we've accepted as the authority doesn't have any certain answers is hard to swallow."
One of Bauer's theses on HIV is that Africans (and people of African descent) test positive for HIV not because they are infected, but because of some inherent difference between their race and others. Inherent differences are the result of genetic mutations. Bauer does not propose what these mutations might be. He hypothesises that they might exist. The phrase "supposed genetic mutations" is thus an accurate description of Bauer's beliefs, which are supported by no evidence. Adding more to this wording, as editor A5 has recently done, is at odds with WP:WEIGHT, a guideline meant to ensure that pseudoscientific beliefs are not presented disproportionately, i.e. as if they were credible. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 14:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that a book by Bauer is widely used in university courses. A secondary source is needed to support this statement. Google searches and original research are insufficient. Keepcalmandcarryon ( talk) 21:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Bauer is by no means the "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist", as the deleted Seth Kalichman quote asserts. The quote is factually wrong and unnecessarily defamatory. As Lenny Bruce's character Father Flotsky once famously remarked in "Father Flotsky's Triumph": "Killing six children, Dutch, doesn't make anybody bad." And, in the present case, disageeing with a medico-scientific consensus does not make anyone a "pseudoscientist". Bauer himself discusses several medical controversies in which the long-standing medical consensus was overthrown after many years of contention, such as the case of the cause of ulcers, in which the H. pylori model eventually triumphed. Obviously, a medico-scientific consensus can be wrong. The cholesterol model of heart disease is another area whose primacy has been challenged with mixed success since 1969 by Dr. Kilmer McCully and others with the "homocysteine model". In Beyond Velikovsky, Bauer actually justified his "belief" in the possibility of the existence of the Loch Ness Monster against the possibility of accusations by such as Kalichman. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 17:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I saw those words ("a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist") and I couldn't make any sense of them, what the hell is a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist?. Couldn't you just use Kalichman to source that Bauer has not made himself any AIDS research (which seems to be correct), and work from there? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 20:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Since Kalichman's calling Bauer "a pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist" is a non sequitur in its context, as explained previously, and Bauer is demonstrably not a pseudoscientist, there is no good purpose served by quoting Kalichman, except to unjustifiably denigrate Bauer's reputation, which is a violation of WP:BLP. Disagreeing with a consensus, such as "HIV causes AIDS", does not automatically make anyone a pseudoscientist. It is unethical to quote Kalichman in this regard, regardless how "verifiable" the quote. My persistence on this issue has nothing to do with COI. It is simple matter of fairness and equity. Please note furthermore, that Kalichman is not notable enough so far to merit a biographical entry in Wikipedia and he cannot be considered a "reliable" source in the light of his illogical accusation against Bauer as a "pseudoscientist", whose books on Velikovsky, Loch Ness Monster, and Scientific Literacy were published by University of Illinois Press which as a matter of policy does not publish pseudoscientific tracts, as opposed to reasoned analyses of interest in such topics, including "the more general question of the acceptance and rejection of extraordinary claims by the scientific community", as Marcello Truzzi observed with respect to Bauer's The Enigma of Loch Ness: Making Sense of a Mystery (1986). Phaedrus7 ( talk) 19:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Editors make it their "business to decide" all sorts of things in considering content for an entry, including what constitutes a "reliable source", which status is often a function of the prejudices of an editor or cabal of editors intent on enforcing a "party line" for an entry, such as protecting Carl Sagan from corrections to the well-documented errors he made in criticizing Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision. I agree that the identity of a publisher may presumptively qualify a text as a "reliable source", but not concerning text that is ipso facto erroneous or nonsensical, as is the case in labelling a person with a Ph.D. in chemisty a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist", which among other things is gratuitiously demeaning. It should also be noted that one need not have performed research in a particular area to be qualified to perform a survey of the literature in that field, such as HIV/AIDS, and draw conclusions therefrom, as Bauer has done. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 20:18, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The dictionary definition for "libel" makes no distinction between "opinion" or adjudicated fact, as follows: "a statement or representation published without just cause or excuse . . . tending to expose another to public hatred, contempt, or ridicule." Therefore, the fallacious labelling of Henry Bauer a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist" is libelous. The labelling is fallacious because it is based on the false premise that Bauer has done no scientific research. That Bauer has not done laboratory research on HIV/AIDS is beside the point because any experienced scientific researcher is qualified to evaluate the published research results of others, as Bauer has done on the subject of HIV/AIDS. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 00:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
MastCell, you seem to have missed the point. Kalichman uses the false accusation that Bauer has done no scientific research as part of his justification for labelling Bauer a "pseudoscientist's pseudoscientist". Were you to read for meaning what Bauer has actually written, you would see that he adhers to the methodology of science in making the case that the promoters of HIV/AIDS have NOT done so. Furthermore, using this derogatory charge in the biography of a living person violates WP:BLP. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This entire article seems to be designed as a personal attack on Bauer, used to discredit his views (which are given hardly attention at all). He's dismissed as a crackpot. Yet he has written a very interesting and well-researched book on scientific literacy.
I wonder if it is because he is critical of the scientific mainstream that our WP contributors have ganged up on him like this. They seem to be arguing that if he holds unpopular views on homosexuality or AIDS, his book must be wrong (see ad hominem).
Perhaps the best antidote to this bias would be for us to the views put forth in his book, Scientific Literacy and the Myth of the Scientific Method. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 21:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that calm response. It's interesting that Bauer's recent AIDS denialism has attracted attention, but I suppose the best to move forward is to describe his scientific method book. -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 19:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
For all the calumny heaped upon Henry Bauer for his AIDS denialism, as though only an out-and-out crackpot could ever endorse such a belief, it came as a surprise to me this afternoon browsing the current Discover Presents GENIUS issue at Border's magazine rack that Kary Mullis, who was awarded a Nobel Prize for his work on the polymerase chain reaction, and evolutionary biologist Lynn Margulis, who is known for her theory of symbiotic evolution, both believe there is no evidence that HIV causes AIDS; see pp. 94-95. These facts should be kept in mind while contemplating a revisioning of the entry for Henry Bauer. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me, but the definition of the argument from authority explicitly engages the correctness of the position, not the credentials of the particular individuals holding a belief. Bauer, Mullis and Margulis may well not be correct in their belief concerning HIV/AIDS, but the point here is that Bauer's challenge to the HIV/AIDS model should not be dismissed, disparaged and disrespected as though he were some off-the-wall crackpot when other distinguished scientists hold the same opinion concerning HIV/AIDS. The fact that the HIV/AIDS establishment opposes the deniers does not necessarily mean the deniers are wrong. The history of medicine is replete with examples of treatments whose efficacy was successfully challenged and replaced, often after a long and acrimonious opposition. As Martin Bernal noted in Black Athena, it is often outsiders to a field that are most qualified to challenge the status quo because insiders have a vested interest and tend to lack perspective and a proper critical bearing. Just as there are criteria for determining what constitutes a "reliable source", so, too, there are criteria, perhaps not as codified, for determining who is qualified or competent to propose a responsible challenge to a scientific status quo. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
The two references for the statement "based upon the substantial body of research confirming that HIV exists, is infectious, causes AIDS, and that HIV tests are accurate.[25][26]" are currently dead links.
I'd suggest replacing them with "The Evidence That HIV Causes AIDS" http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/HIVAIDS/Understanding/howHIVCausesAIDS/pages/hivcausesaids.aspx
and "HIV is the cause of AIDS" http://www.avert.org/hiv-causes-aids.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by On A Leash ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Henry H. Bauer. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)