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In France, he is known invariably as the comte de Saint-Simon, to distinguish him from his much more famous relative, the duc de Saint-Simon, who is known simply as "Saint-Simon".
NO ONE would know either from their family name, de Rouvroy.
208.87.248.162 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC).
(proposal retracted, template removed, listing scuttled) -- Dystopos 02:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I think Saint Simonism clearly deserves its own article separate from this one; it was a movement much broader than Claude Henri de R. himself through much of the 19th century. Saint Simonism was very influential in the military academies for example. I'm willing to write the article myself (since I am doing a bit of research on the topic). jackbrown 22:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
>>Obviously, the article has a more than adequate (ie I think excellent) discussion of the ideas of Saint Simonism. I think what's missing is a survey of the movement's relevance among the French intelligensia in the 19th century, in institutions like the army and how it inflenced colonial policy for example. And that's obviously not something which belongs in the article on the Count...Thoughts? jackbrown 22:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean Saint Simonianism? There is a separate article for that... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zubinmukerjee (
talk •
contribs) 20:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I copied and pasted various sections in the article up into the lead and then ruthlessly cut them down. Hopefully it's a better lead than it started out as. Bettymnz4 ( talk) 01:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I accuse the article of lacking neutrality. I claim he wasnt influenced by Marxism. The claim that early socialists where "created by-" or "influenced by marxism" is solely based on the idea that Karl Marx predate socialism but socialism predate Marx. The books the early socialist are know to have read should be listed by name and author, not refered by ideology,
By klas Wullt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.245.217 ( talk) 20:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
—Thanks for the tip. Given that Karl Marx was 7 years old when Saint-Simon died, your assertion that Saint-Simon wasn't influenced by Marxism is almost certainly correct.-- Whoosit (stalk) 14:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The following seems to be extremely moralizing: "Bazard, a man of stolid temperament, could no longer work in harmony with Enfantin, who desired to establish an arrogant and fantastic sacerdotalism with lax notions as to marriage and the relations between the sexes. In the name of progress, Enfantin announced that the gulf between the sexes was too wide and this social inequality would impede rapid growth of society." It sounds like we're quoting this from somewhere, but in any event, we don't do this sort of thing. It's not up to us to try to judge whether Enfantin's ideas were or were not "arrogant" and "fantastic" or had "lax" notions. Metamagician3000 ( talk) 09:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Much of this article, in particular the Theory section reads like a 19th century philosophy textbook. I can't track a source down--so I can't be sure. This section seems to have stood in various forms since 2007. It's been extensively copied around the web, making it tricky to pinpoint an original source online. Someone with better search skills than me might give it a crack...
If it's not a copy-paste then it sure looks like OR.
-- Whoosit (stalk) 15:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
POV, rewrite, etc. Really bad anti-socialist POV pushing is quite evident/blantant. 76.180.168.166 ( talk) 16:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
The editor noted above just made a series of extensive edits to this article, but included no references to support those changes. I reverted those changes, and left a note on the editor's 70.53.113.91|talk page JoeSperrazza ( talk) 16:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
The first sentence in this article says that he was commonly referred to as Henri de Saint-Simon, and as far as I am aware there is no other major historical figure by that name, so by WP:COMMON NAME the article should be named "Henri de Saint-Simon".-- 70.55.10.162 ( talk) 17:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the 'dubious - discuss' comment on Mary Shelley anticipated Saint-Simon's ideas by a generation. Mary Wollstonecraft, born in 1759, was a near exact contemporary of Saint-Simon, so they were the same generation. The writer of the comment, Flora Tristan, was not born until 1803, six years after Mary Shelley's death, so it is tempting to delete this as erroneous on the part of Tristan. What Tristan appears to mean is that Shelley was actively writing in the 1790s in the decade immediately before Saint-Simon began writing. As Shelley was living and writing in revolutionary France, Saint-Simon would have had access to French publications of her work even if he may not have met her. Cloptonson ( talk) 06:40, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The whole article seems to focus on how he wasn't anything like Marx, and in the end it remains unclear in what way his ideas were different from actually existing American capitalism.-- 79.100.149.219 ( talk) 06:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Saint Simon's conceptual recognition of broad socio-economic contribution, and his Enlightenment valorization of scientific knowledge, soon inspired and influenced utopian socialism, liberal political theorist John Stuart Mill, anarchism through its founder Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels identifying Saint-Simon as an inspiration to their ideas and classifying him among the utopian socialists.
Garden path:
... Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism ...
In grad school you get to untangle this mess, because the professor who wrote the crappy manuscript is too busy for words.
Here, we can do better. — MaxEnt 02:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
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In France, he is known invariably as the comte de Saint-Simon, to distinguish him from his much more famous relative, the duc de Saint-Simon, who is known simply as "Saint-Simon".
NO ONE would know either from their family name, de Rouvroy.
208.87.248.162 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC).
(proposal retracted, template removed, listing scuttled) -- Dystopos 02:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I think Saint Simonism clearly deserves its own article separate from this one; it was a movement much broader than Claude Henri de R. himself through much of the 19th century. Saint Simonism was very influential in the military academies for example. I'm willing to write the article myself (since I am doing a bit of research on the topic). jackbrown 22:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
>>Obviously, the article has a more than adequate (ie I think excellent) discussion of the ideas of Saint Simonism. I think what's missing is a survey of the movement's relevance among the French intelligensia in the 19th century, in institutions like the army and how it inflenced colonial policy for example. And that's obviously not something which belongs in the article on the Count...Thoughts? jackbrown 22:35, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean Saint Simonianism? There is a separate article for that... — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zubinmukerjee (
talk •
contribs) 20:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I copied and pasted various sections in the article up into the lead and then ruthlessly cut them down. Hopefully it's a better lead than it started out as. Bettymnz4 ( talk) 01:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I accuse the article of lacking neutrality. I claim he wasnt influenced by Marxism. The claim that early socialists where "created by-" or "influenced by marxism" is solely based on the idea that Karl Marx predate socialism but socialism predate Marx. The books the early socialist are know to have read should be listed by name and author, not refered by ideology,
By klas Wullt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.245.217 ( talk) 20:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
—Thanks for the tip. Given that Karl Marx was 7 years old when Saint-Simon died, your assertion that Saint-Simon wasn't influenced by Marxism is almost certainly correct.-- Whoosit (stalk) 14:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The following seems to be extremely moralizing: "Bazard, a man of stolid temperament, could no longer work in harmony with Enfantin, who desired to establish an arrogant and fantastic sacerdotalism with lax notions as to marriage and the relations between the sexes. In the name of progress, Enfantin announced that the gulf between the sexes was too wide and this social inequality would impede rapid growth of society." It sounds like we're quoting this from somewhere, but in any event, we don't do this sort of thing. It's not up to us to try to judge whether Enfantin's ideas were or were not "arrogant" and "fantastic" or had "lax" notions. Metamagician3000 ( talk) 09:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Much of this article, in particular the Theory section reads like a 19th century philosophy textbook. I can't track a source down--so I can't be sure. This section seems to have stood in various forms since 2007. It's been extensively copied around the web, making it tricky to pinpoint an original source online. Someone with better search skills than me might give it a crack...
If it's not a copy-paste then it sure looks like OR.
-- Whoosit (stalk) 15:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
POV, rewrite, etc. Really bad anti-socialist POV pushing is quite evident/blantant. 76.180.168.166 ( talk) 16:46, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
The editor noted above just made a series of extensive edits to this article, but included no references to support those changes. I reverted those changes, and left a note on the editor's 70.53.113.91|talk page JoeSperrazza ( talk) 16:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
The first sentence in this article says that he was commonly referred to as Henri de Saint-Simon, and as far as I am aware there is no other major historical figure by that name, so by WP:COMMON NAME the article should be named "Henri de Saint-Simon".-- 70.55.10.162 ( talk) 17:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with the 'dubious - discuss' comment on Mary Shelley anticipated Saint-Simon's ideas by a generation. Mary Wollstonecraft, born in 1759, was a near exact contemporary of Saint-Simon, so they were the same generation. The writer of the comment, Flora Tristan, was not born until 1803, six years after Mary Shelley's death, so it is tempting to delete this as erroneous on the part of Tristan. What Tristan appears to mean is that Shelley was actively writing in the 1790s in the decade immediately before Saint-Simon began writing. As Shelley was living and writing in revolutionary France, Saint-Simon would have had access to French publications of her work even if he may not have met her. Cloptonson ( talk) 06:40, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The whole article seems to focus on how he wasn't anything like Marx, and in the end it remains unclear in what way his ideas were different from actually existing American capitalism.-- 79.100.149.219 ( talk) 06:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Saint Simon's conceptual recognition of broad socio-economic contribution, and his Enlightenment valorization of scientific knowledge, soon inspired and influenced utopian socialism, liberal political theorist John Stuart Mill, anarchism through its founder Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism with Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels identifying Saint-Simon as an inspiration to their ideas and classifying him among the utopian socialists.
Garden path:
... Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who was inspired by Saint-Simon's thought and Marxism ...
In grad school you get to untangle this mess, because the professor who wrote the crappy manuscript is too busy for words.
Here, we can do better. — MaxEnt 02:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)