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The name of this article has been changed because "The sky is falling" is not the commonest or best known for the story involved. There are also too many other articles under that title and this led to an unacceptable number of ambiguities.
Another reason is that it helps focus the article on the fable itself. This is the reason why so many items that formerly were listed have now been deleted. Many referred to the idiomatic phrase meaning 'disaster is approaching' rather than the fable. In any case, simply listing every passing allusion to it without explaining why its mention is significant is not acceptable in what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic article. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 11:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place right here. I rather foresaw that there might be a clash of interests around which name to use. "Chicken Little" appears to be the name by which the character is now best known in the U.S. However, Joseph Jacobs, the tale's populariser, first heard it among a Cornish community in Australia ( http://www.storyteller.net/articles/136) and used the title "Henny Penny" in his collection of "English Fairy Tales" (1890). There is a list of those included at the Joseph Jacobs article and "Henny Penny" now directs to this page. Though Walt Disney used "Chicken Little" in his 1943 title, Lightnin' Hopkins was using the alternative name in his "Henny Penny Blues" about five years later, which proves that too had currency in the U.S. I would dispute that 'most references give the main character as Chicken Licken'; perhaps they do in the U.S. (though that will need substantiating) but it may not be so elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 15:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I've been doing some reasearch as well and have come across an earlier source than Joseph in The Remarkable Story of Chicken Little [1] which was printed in Boston between 1865-71. I also did a web search (with 'book' added to the search category so as to keep it more focused), as you have done, and there are indeed more entries for Chicken Little. However, this needs a little interpretation, since the web is largely dominated by the US so one might expect that. I fully agree with you that in the US the tale is best known as Chicken Little.
When I first came across that phrase in a story, applied by a father to his daughter, I was puzzled by what he meant; having been raised elsewhere, I knew the fable under another name and did not understand the allusion. The point I didn't make sufficiently clear above is that the WP title has to be recognisable to people in other English-speaking areas - UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa...India, if it comes to that, since it's the lingua franca there. But let's centre this discussion - which I'm very glad you've brought up, Quoth 31 - and look at the alternatives practically.
As WP editors, it's our job to help work out which title will be most accessible to users and the dilemma is that whichever we choose is bound to cause dissatisfaction. Having set up the alternatives, let's see if anyone else joins the discussion. The last time I checked the article has an average of 200 hits a day. Incidentally, I didn't raise it as a discussion point before making the change in name because so few people do respond, whereas if one goes ahead and makes the change that is more likely to generate talk. Take a look at the Talk Page on Aesop's Fables and you'll find some discussion points not acted on since 2005. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Somewhere on WP there's a place where you can ask other editors for their views. Do you know where it is? If we simply wait for someone else to come along and offer an opinion, it may take for ever. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 22:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure either I or Quoth31 can agree with you on recognizability, Rhymster. As you'll see from the discussion above, neither s/he nor I recognised the name Chicken Little when we first encountered it, or realised that it had any connection with the fable. We're both UK residents but, I suspect, of different generations. It's a purely US usage. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 23:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
My feeling about this is that the name of the article is not so important. The article's usefulness is mainly in providing information about the story, whatever its name, and the different titles will redirect here. I don't think it's worth finding a neutral term, as in the case of Fixed-wing aircraft, where the proponents of "airplane" and "aeroplane" were at loggerheads! I know the tale from both titles, and I think of the same tale. It's important not to let this get out of proportion... (Now if only there was a story that could illustrate that...)-- Annielogue ( talk) 21:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 17:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
{{
Requested move/dated|Henny Penny}}
Henny Penny (fable) → Henny Penny — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC) While the name of the article may have been the subject of some debate in the past, it appears that "Henny Penny" is a stable name now. That being the case, if the article is to stay at "Henny Penny" the disambiguating term "(fable)" is unnecessary per WP:AT. -- Mattinbgn ( talk) 03:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Unbelievable: this request was submitted practically simultaneously to the above one... I'm leaving it here as an alternative to consider. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The google test results at both U.S. [3] [4] and U.K. google [5] [6] are overwhelming: "Chicken Little" has well over ten times as many ghits as does "Henny Penny"; that "Chicken Little" is more commonly used than "Henny Penny" is indisputable (though it must be disambiguated, like Henny Penny, due to other uses).
Per the principle criteria at WP:TITLE, while neither has a significant advantage in terms of precision, conciseness, or consistency, "Chicken Little" is at least as natural as "Henny Penny", and is clearly more recognizable. Accordingly this title should reflect the name most commonly used to refer to its topic... Chicken Little, by being moved to Chicken Little (fable) (or, perhaps, if primary topic criteria is believed to exist, which is probably, to Chicken Little). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The WP article on this quotation says it is 'a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics, to bolster weak arguments'. Counts of appearances of "Chicken Little" in Google have been cited as proof of the name's universal recognisability. To begin with, of course, since we are dealing in this article with the nursery tale, you have to strip out all references to firms with that name, and to the recent Disney film, which has very little connection with the traditional tale. That would reduce the count considerably. But, since the argument is chiefly about recognisability in the UK (and UK-influenced countries), a better approach is make the Google search "Chicken Little" +book +UK. The result of that turns up material predominantly dependent on the 2005 Disney cartoon. Another approach is to look in the Bodleian catalogue, since that has the complete run of books published for over a century. "Chicken Little" does not figure there before the 1990s while "Henny Penny" and "Chicken Licken" appear frequently in titles back to 1880 and - as cited already - we know they appear in compilations of stories even earlier than that.
User:Dohn joe is demanding citations for all this. There aren't any because no-one up to now has been so bone-headed as to insist that "Chicken Little" is the most recognised title for this story outside the U.S. Mention of proof via focused searches in appropriate places technically counts as original research on WP. But the fact remains that there is absolutely no documented proof that the name "Chicken Little" was even recognised outside the US until very recently. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 12:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
If you read more closely, Fyrefly, you will find I mentioned 'the UK and UK-influenced countries' who would not recognise "Chicken Little" as the title of the tale. These include Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone, Gambia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Jamaica and other West Indian islands, in most of which there is still a keen appreciation of animal fables. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 11:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
My apologies for misinterpreting you, Dohn joe. The two citations you give are interesting as illustrations of how the alternative title was beginning to be recognised outside the US during the 1980s. The Oxford Companion quotation is really about a novel by an American author and therefore needs to provide a gloss to its title. Unfortunately the title of the book under discussion in Australia is cut off so it's not possible to judge the real context of that mention. Interestingly, though, they both support Quoth 31's contention that Chicken Licken is the primary and more recognisable title.
Running through early 20th century children's books in the US, I discovered use of "Henny Penny" in 1921 and 1915; the latter is described as 'the classic Chicken Little story' in the present day catalogue ( http://www.alephbet.com/store/27621.htm) - an example of the gloss having to work the other way now. I omitted Canada from the list of Commonwealth countries above since I haven't checked how early US influence came to bear on the story's name there. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 20:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
You're obviously a more knowing researcher than I am so far as finding resources goes, Dohn joe. As I said above, the Bodleian catalogue is a good place to search for UK titles, as I did at the outset of this subject. You may do even better. Since my past message, I did a quick Google search of titles in Canada and found, rather to my surprise, that Chicken Little only starts to gain currency there too in the 1980s.
It's true that the US (well, the East Coast states) was 'UK influenced' but I believe that there was a reaction against this after 1780, in much the same way as there was against Denmark (and Danish) in Norway after it regained independence in 1904, in Eire (as it then called itself) against the UK after 1923. For all I know, that's one reason why the name Chicken Little was originally given prominence over Chicken Licken. Nationalism and historical memory can drive people to extremes. When I was in Norway back in 1960, a girl told me that her grandfather had insisted that his family use the verb 'ete' for 'to eat', despite the fact that it was normally confined to animals (i.e.feeding) - and all this because Danes used the word 'spise' and he wanted the language to distance itself from 'Danish' roots. That, incidentally, is what happened in the case of Portugese (at a much earlier date); it was artificially fostered to be as different as possible from Spanish, again because of national and historical tensions.
I don't think I'm being too thin-skinned over this. I was with a party that visited New York and Los Angeles back in 1983. Believe me, we couldn't go anywhere without people making remarks about 'redcoats'. If the historical memory could still be that strong after a couple of centuries, I doubt if much has changed in the years since! Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:39, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Fyrefly has privately called me to order. There is no need to apologise for what is at most subliminal hostility. I should apologise for going off-topic, although giving the discussion some context isn't altogether bad. Getting back to the real subject, though, I think what has been established by our joint investigations is that since the 1980s there has been acknowledgement everywhere (US included) that this story goes by different names. That may not add up to universal recognisability of any one title; that titles are still being glossed proves that. I was very surprised too that Paul Galdone's very popular retelling was titled "Henny Penny". He's a US writer of European extraction. I think too that the cartoon "Chicken Little" has muddied the waters and now hinders recognisability. The film's connection with the nursery tale is so thin that many will think use of that name refers only to the film. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 09:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
That's very handsome of you, Dohn joe. I'd like to think too that this is an example of how disinterested research transcends nationality. I agree with you that if the present title is retained then the bracketed fable should be removed. Henny Penny is, after all, the original use of the name. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 13:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
On 11 Feb I deleted what I described as 'an unreferenced piece of self-advertisment'. Even though this was obvious, I didn't take action until I'd done a bit more web research to establish that the guy was non-notable and had posted more information about his activities elsewhere on WP. I don't think sufficient research has been done in the case of the Gary Bachlund reference that has been deleted. He didn't place it in the article himself, any more than he did another reference to his site on WP here. (It was a fellow Brit with an academic background). While it's probable that Bachlund's site is maintained by him, lots of professionals have such sites and there's no call to delete items on that account. What has to be established is that the person in question is not notable. A glance at the amount of ambitious work there is impressive. So is the biographical information available elsewhere on the web. Bachlund has had a distinguished opera career, is a L.A. cantor, has appeared on at least one recording and has had a piece of commissioned work performed at a public concert. Though we may not approve of his politics, and I believe that it was in his synagogue that one of the 'redcoat' cracks was made when I was there, the reference to his work has a right to be here on the grounds of notability and I have therefore restored it. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:06, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I also looked at the notes to one or two other works on his site that interested me. Those he provides for his opera set mention that 'the "Four Fables" were debuted at Pasadena City College in California, by the students of its opera workshop', which makes me wonder whether there may be other information about performance history tucked away on his site for any eager student. However, while doing a Google for this just now I came across a site holding his scores and found there this biography that explains how he came to switch to composition and some of his performance history. It's difficult enough to get known as a composer and be talked about - think of all those years Haydn was tucked away at the court of Prince Esterhazy! It seems, however, that Bachlund is notable enough, even if he's not very newsworthy. However, it isn't altogether on account of his profile that I'd like the mention to stay. There are two more interesting reasons. The first is the text that he set, from a 1910 child's reader; that has curiosity value. The other is that we've been underlining the political use to which the tale has been put over the course of a century, and the notes to the piece make clear (as I mention in the article) that it was this that guided Bachlund's choice of the tale. (Incidentally, that's where you'll learn what his political opinions are). To sum up, we learn from the inclusion of this information something about the tale's reception and memorability; it's not just an item of information in a catalogue, it's a fact from which conclusions can be drawn. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Maskalick was advertising himself and this wasn't the first time he'd put stuff about his own activities on WP. Bachlund doesn't act in that way. That's how I distinguish between the two. Derby happens to be 30 miles north of where I live, I know the paper that carried the review. The performance wasn't even in the city but at a school in a village outside. It's strictly Podunk stuff. Bachlund does have a music publisher; the bio mentioned above is from its site. And there's a LA Times review of his Requiem. As I've explained, however, there were reasons beyond the purely musical for mentioning his piece. I've another bone to pick with you: you mention finding 'six articles in all of WP (all but one of which are links to his website)'. I've now quoted six mentions from reputably objective sources that have no mention in them of Bachlund's website. Forgive me for my dishonourable suspicions, but could it be that you don't want to find the evidence? Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Having said all that, we do now have a discussion of his works by a secondary source. And while it would still be nice to have more, that's certainly enough for me. It's more than a lot of articles get on WP. In fact, I think I'll redlink Mr. Bachlund so that someone might be interested in creating an article on him. (I might even do so myself, one of these days.)
I hope you see where I was coming from, Mzilikazi. Dohn joe ( talk) 03:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
It's nice that we're once again two birds on a single bough (as they say in Burma). Looking thru all the Google Books items, I did discover a reference to yet another Bachlund performance and possibly there are others tucked away elsewhere. What annoys me about Google is how inefficient it is; one has to keep changing the search terms and then one gets important items that didn't show previously. I got the LA Times review by typing in the name of the requiem; there were a couple of other news items too that simply mentioned that a performance had taken place (in other locations). I noticed as well that Bachlund lives half of the time in Berlin but my German isn't good enough to formulate an effective Google search for German items. You may have noticed that some of his output is in German; I've mentioned one of his settings of Lessing in another article.
He may deserve a WP article. The bio on his music publisher's site can serve as the basis. But just to make sure, I suppose one of us could send the guy a fan letter asking about other performances and what media publicity they got....but (deviously) not mentioning what we have in mind. There's a rather nice jazz setting of an e e cummings poem available as an audio file on yet another site that interested me. Shades of my Beat youth rose up to greet it! Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 18:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
WP:NAME states, "article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources." Reliable sources include books and magazines. One index shows 60,700 titles referencing "chicken little" and less than half as many (just 28,800) titles referencing "henny penny". Ironically, the search likely INFLATES the number of "henny penny" references, since many renderings of the story include both "Chicken Little" as the star and "Henny Penny" as a separate supporting character.
When Disney chose to name it's 2005 computer-animated film "Chicken Little", Disney was intending to connect with an already-existing name MOST RECOGNIZABLE to the entire English-speaking community. I'm the last to bow to the wisdom of the mousehouse, but whatever the case may have been before 2005, the release of a major motion picture would have stomped out alternatives in the years since.
Perhaps it's likely that "Chicken Little" was not the protagonist's name in the very earliest recorded versions of the story, but so what? Typically, Wikipedia doesn't care about that at all when naming articles. The guideline WP:NAME also states, "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles".
I'm American, incidentally, and most familiar with the name "Chicken Little" long before 2005. Even as a child, I noticed that the name "Chicken Little" is gender-ambiguous so that the lesson contains no gender-bias. Also, the versions I heard as a child reinforced the idea that the hysteria was greatly compounded by unskeptical repetition; the REPETITION was by characters with REPETITIOUS names (eg Henny Penny, Turkey Lurkey, et al). But...both lessons are spoiled when the hysteria originates from an obvious female (a hen) whose name has the same repetitive construct as subsequent characters who repeat her hysteria. Regardless of my original research, the greater ubiquity of the name "Chicken Little" should be reflected in the article title. I suppose I'll wait a bit before moving it.-- →gab 24dot grab← 02:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
This article itself is in both Category:Fictional chickens and Category:Fictional birds. I removed the latter because it's redundant with the former. However, someone reverted me, saying that the article should match all the story's characters. In that case, then it would make sense for this article to belong in all of Category:Fictional chickens, Category:Fictional ducks, Category:Fictional geese, Category:Fictional turkeys, and Category:Fictional foxes. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy ( talk) 16:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
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In Season 6, Episode 26 of the Golden Girls, "Henny Penny — Straight, No Chaser" (May 4, 1991) an entire episode is devoted to the Fairy tale. In citing a television episode, if one includes the necessary information inline (show, season, episode and title) as editor 331dot pointed out: "no source is needed as the plot can be confirmed by watching/reading the subject itself." In keeping with the song lyrics of the other referenced content, I have included a YouTube clip from the episode which should suffice alone; given that this is the only other source provided in this section. In keeping with WP:POPCULTURE: "all such references should be discussed in at least one reliable secondary or tertiary source which specifically links the cultural item to the subject of the article. This source should cover the subject of the article in some depth; it should not be a source about the cultural item which merely mentions the subject." The source: " Fine Feather Friends" complies with this far more than song lyrics that hint at the mention of the Fairy tale and/or verse found within: "Did ya hear what happened to the world today? Somebody came an' they took it away". The source: Golden Girls Fashion site discusses at length not only the episode, the transcript, the fashion, but offers video clips. Thank you. Maineartists ( talk) 14:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
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The name of this article has been changed because "The sky is falling" is not the commonest or best known for the story involved. There are also too many other articles under that title and this led to an unacceptable number of ambiguities.
Another reason is that it helps focus the article on the fable itself. This is the reason why so many items that formerly were listed have now been deleted. Many referred to the idiomatic phrase meaning 'disaster is approaching' rather than the fable. In any case, simply listing every passing allusion to it without explaining why its mention is significant is not acceptable in what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic article. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 11:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place right here. I rather foresaw that there might be a clash of interests around which name to use. "Chicken Little" appears to be the name by which the character is now best known in the U.S. However, Joseph Jacobs, the tale's populariser, first heard it among a Cornish community in Australia ( http://www.storyteller.net/articles/136) and used the title "Henny Penny" in his collection of "English Fairy Tales" (1890). There is a list of those included at the Joseph Jacobs article and "Henny Penny" now directs to this page. Though Walt Disney used "Chicken Little" in his 1943 title, Lightnin' Hopkins was using the alternative name in his "Henny Penny Blues" about five years later, which proves that too had currency in the U.S. I would dispute that 'most references give the main character as Chicken Licken'; perhaps they do in the U.S. (though that will need substantiating) but it may not be so elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 15:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I've been doing some reasearch as well and have come across an earlier source than Joseph in The Remarkable Story of Chicken Little [1] which was printed in Boston between 1865-71. I also did a web search (with 'book' added to the search category so as to keep it more focused), as you have done, and there are indeed more entries for Chicken Little. However, this needs a little interpretation, since the web is largely dominated by the US so one might expect that. I fully agree with you that in the US the tale is best known as Chicken Little.
When I first came across that phrase in a story, applied by a father to his daughter, I was puzzled by what he meant; having been raised elsewhere, I knew the fable under another name and did not understand the allusion. The point I didn't make sufficiently clear above is that the WP title has to be recognisable to people in other English-speaking areas - UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa...India, if it comes to that, since it's the lingua franca there. But let's centre this discussion - which I'm very glad you've brought up, Quoth 31 - and look at the alternatives practically.
As WP editors, it's our job to help work out which title will be most accessible to users and the dilemma is that whichever we choose is bound to cause dissatisfaction. Having set up the alternatives, let's see if anyone else joins the discussion. The last time I checked the article has an average of 200 hits a day. Incidentally, I didn't raise it as a discussion point before making the change in name because so few people do respond, whereas if one goes ahead and makes the change that is more likely to generate talk. Take a look at the Talk Page on Aesop's Fables and you'll find some discussion points not acted on since 2005. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Somewhere on WP there's a place where you can ask other editors for their views. Do you know where it is? If we simply wait for someone else to come along and offer an opinion, it may take for ever. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 22:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure either I or Quoth31 can agree with you on recognizability, Rhymster. As you'll see from the discussion above, neither s/he nor I recognised the name Chicken Little when we first encountered it, or realised that it had any connection with the fable. We're both UK residents but, I suspect, of different generations. It's a purely US usage. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 23:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
My feeling about this is that the name of the article is not so important. The article's usefulness is mainly in providing information about the story, whatever its name, and the different titles will redirect here. I don't think it's worth finding a neutral term, as in the case of Fixed-wing aircraft, where the proponents of "airplane" and "aeroplane" were at loggerheads! I know the tale from both titles, and I think of the same tale. It's important not to let this get out of proportion... (Now if only there was a story that could illustrate that...)-- Annielogue ( talk) 21:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 17:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
{{
Requested move/dated|Henny Penny}}
Henny Penny (fable) → Henny Penny — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC) While the name of the article may have been the subject of some debate in the past, it appears that "Henny Penny" is a stable name now. That being the case, if the article is to stay at "Henny Penny" the disambiguating term "(fable)" is unnecessary per WP:AT. -- Mattinbgn ( talk) 03:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Unbelievable: this request was submitted practically simultaneously to the above one... I'm leaving it here as an alternative to consider. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The google test results at both U.S. [3] [4] and U.K. google [5] [6] are overwhelming: "Chicken Little" has well over ten times as many ghits as does "Henny Penny"; that "Chicken Little" is more commonly used than "Henny Penny" is indisputable (though it must be disambiguated, like Henny Penny, due to other uses).
Per the principle criteria at WP:TITLE, while neither has a significant advantage in terms of precision, conciseness, or consistency, "Chicken Little" is at least as natural as "Henny Penny", and is clearly more recognizable. Accordingly this title should reflect the name most commonly used to refer to its topic... Chicken Little, by being moved to Chicken Little (fable) (or, perhaps, if primary topic criteria is believed to exist, which is probably, to Chicken Little). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 03:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
The WP article on this quotation says it is 'a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics, to bolster weak arguments'. Counts of appearances of "Chicken Little" in Google have been cited as proof of the name's universal recognisability. To begin with, of course, since we are dealing in this article with the nursery tale, you have to strip out all references to firms with that name, and to the recent Disney film, which has very little connection with the traditional tale. That would reduce the count considerably. But, since the argument is chiefly about recognisability in the UK (and UK-influenced countries), a better approach is make the Google search "Chicken Little" +book +UK. The result of that turns up material predominantly dependent on the 2005 Disney cartoon. Another approach is to look in the Bodleian catalogue, since that has the complete run of books published for over a century. "Chicken Little" does not figure there before the 1990s while "Henny Penny" and "Chicken Licken" appear frequently in titles back to 1880 and - as cited already - we know they appear in compilations of stories even earlier than that.
User:Dohn joe is demanding citations for all this. There aren't any because no-one up to now has been so bone-headed as to insist that "Chicken Little" is the most recognised title for this story outside the U.S. Mention of proof via focused searches in appropriate places technically counts as original research on WP. But the fact remains that there is absolutely no documented proof that the name "Chicken Little" was even recognised outside the US until very recently. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 12:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
If you read more closely, Fyrefly, you will find I mentioned 'the UK and UK-influenced countries' who would not recognise "Chicken Little" as the title of the tale. These include Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone, Gambia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Jamaica and other West Indian islands, in most of which there is still a keen appreciation of animal fables. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 11:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
My apologies for misinterpreting you, Dohn joe. The two citations you give are interesting as illustrations of how the alternative title was beginning to be recognised outside the US during the 1980s. The Oxford Companion quotation is really about a novel by an American author and therefore needs to provide a gloss to its title. Unfortunately the title of the book under discussion in Australia is cut off so it's not possible to judge the real context of that mention. Interestingly, though, they both support Quoth 31's contention that Chicken Licken is the primary and more recognisable title.
Running through early 20th century children's books in the US, I discovered use of "Henny Penny" in 1921 and 1915; the latter is described as 'the classic Chicken Little story' in the present day catalogue ( http://www.alephbet.com/store/27621.htm) - an example of the gloss having to work the other way now. I omitted Canada from the list of Commonwealth countries above since I haven't checked how early US influence came to bear on the story's name there. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 20:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
You're obviously a more knowing researcher than I am so far as finding resources goes, Dohn joe. As I said above, the Bodleian catalogue is a good place to search for UK titles, as I did at the outset of this subject. You may do even better. Since my past message, I did a quick Google search of titles in Canada and found, rather to my surprise, that Chicken Little only starts to gain currency there too in the 1980s.
It's true that the US (well, the East Coast states) was 'UK influenced' but I believe that there was a reaction against this after 1780, in much the same way as there was against Denmark (and Danish) in Norway after it regained independence in 1904, in Eire (as it then called itself) against the UK after 1923. For all I know, that's one reason why the name Chicken Little was originally given prominence over Chicken Licken. Nationalism and historical memory can drive people to extremes. When I was in Norway back in 1960, a girl told me that her grandfather had insisted that his family use the verb 'ete' for 'to eat', despite the fact that it was normally confined to animals (i.e.feeding) - and all this because Danes used the word 'spise' and he wanted the language to distance itself from 'Danish' roots. That, incidentally, is what happened in the case of Portugese (at a much earlier date); it was artificially fostered to be as different as possible from Spanish, again because of national and historical tensions.
I don't think I'm being too thin-skinned over this. I was with a party that visited New York and Los Angeles back in 1983. Believe me, we couldn't go anywhere without people making remarks about 'redcoats'. If the historical memory could still be that strong after a couple of centuries, I doubt if much has changed in the years since! Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:39, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Fyrefly has privately called me to order. There is no need to apologise for what is at most subliminal hostility. I should apologise for going off-topic, although giving the discussion some context isn't altogether bad. Getting back to the real subject, though, I think what has been established by our joint investigations is that since the 1980s there has been acknowledgement everywhere (US included) that this story goes by different names. That may not add up to universal recognisability of any one title; that titles are still being glossed proves that. I was very surprised too that Paul Galdone's very popular retelling was titled "Henny Penny". He's a US writer of European extraction. I think too that the cartoon "Chicken Little" has muddied the waters and now hinders recognisability. The film's connection with the nursery tale is so thin that many will think use of that name refers only to the film. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 09:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
That's very handsome of you, Dohn joe. I'd like to think too that this is an example of how disinterested research transcends nationality. I agree with you that if the present title is retained then the bracketed fable should be removed. Henny Penny is, after all, the original use of the name. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 13:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
On 11 Feb I deleted what I described as 'an unreferenced piece of self-advertisment'. Even though this was obvious, I didn't take action until I'd done a bit more web research to establish that the guy was non-notable and had posted more information about his activities elsewhere on WP. I don't think sufficient research has been done in the case of the Gary Bachlund reference that has been deleted. He didn't place it in the article himself, any more than he did another reference to his site on WP here. (It was a fellow Brit with an academic background). While it's probable that Bachlund's site is maintained by him, lots of professionals have such sites and there's no call to delete items on that account. What has to be established is that the person in question is not notable. A glance at the amount of ambitious work there is impressive. So is the biographical information available elsewhere on the web. Bachlund has had a distinguished opera career, is a L.A. cantor, has appeared on at least one recording and has had a piece of commissioned work performed at a public concert. Though we may not approve of his politics, and I believe that it was in his synagogue that one of the 'redcoat' cracks was made when I was there, the reference to his work has a right to be here on the grounds of notability and I have therefore restored it. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:06, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I also looked at the notes to one or two other works on his site that interested me. Those he provides for his opera set mention that 'the "Four Fables" were debuted at Pasadena City College in California, by the students of its opera workshop', which makes me wonder whether there may be other information about performance history tucked away on his site for any eager student. However, while doing a Google for this just now I came across a site holding his scores and found there this biography that explains how he came to switch to composition and some of his performance history. It's difficult enough to get known as a composer and be talked about - think of all those years Haydn was tucked away at the court of Prince Esterhazy! It seems, however, that Bachlund is notable enough, even if he's not very newsworthy. However, it isn't altogether on account of his profile that I'd like the mention to stay. There are two more interesting reasons. The first is the text that he set, from a 1910 child's reader; that has curiosity value. The other is that we've been underlining the political use to which the tale has been put over the course of a century, and the notes to the piece make clear (as I mention in the article) that it was this that guided Bachlund's choice of the tale. (Incidentally, that's where you'll learn what his political opinions are). To sum up, we learn from the inclusion of this information something about the tale's reception and memorability; it's not just an item of information in a catalogue, it's a fact from which conclusions can be drawn. Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Maskalick was advertising himself and this wasn't the first time he'd put stuff about his own activities on WP. Bachlund doesn't act in that way. That's how I distinguish between the two. Derby happens to be 30 miles north of where I live, I know the paper that carried the review. The performance wasn't even in the city but at a school in a village outside. It's strictly Podunk stuff. Bachlund does have a music publisher; the bio mentioned above is from its site. And there's a LA Times review of his Requiem. As I've explained, however, there were reasons beyond the purely musical for mentioning his piece. I've another bone to pick with you: you mention finding 'six articles in all of WP (all but one of which are links to his website)'. I've now quoted six mentions from reputably objective sources that have no mention in them of Bachlund's website. Forgive me for my dishonourable suspicions, but could it be that you don't want to find the evidence? Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 00:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Having said all that, we do now have a discussion of his works by a secondary source. And while it would still be nice to have more, that's certainly enough for me. It's more than a lot of articles get on WP. In fact, I think I'll redlink Mr. Bachlund so that someone might be interested in creating an article on him. (I might even do so myself, one of these days.)
I hope you see where I was coming from, Mzilikazi. Dohn joe ( talk) 03:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
It's nice that we're once again two birds on a single bough (as they say in Burma). Looking thru all the Google Books items, I did discover a reference to yet another Bachlund performance and possibly there are others tucked away elsewhere. What annoys me about Google is how inefficient it is; one has to keep changing the search terms and then one gets important items that didn't show previously. I got the LA Times review by typing in the name of the requiem; there were a couple of other news items too that simply mentioned that a performance had taken place (in other locations). I noticed as well that Bachlund lives half of the time in Berlin but my German isn't good enough to formulate an effective Google search for German items. You may have noticed that some of his output is in German; I've mentioned one of his settings of Lessing in another article.
He may deserve a WP article. The bio on his music publisher's site can serve as the basis. But just to make sure, I suppose one of us could send the guy a fan letter asking about other performances and what media publicity they got....but (deviously) not mentioning what we have in mind. There's a rather nice jazz setting of an e e cummings poem available as an audio file on yet another site that interested me. Shades of my Beat youth rose up to greet it! Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 18:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Mzilikazi1939 ( talk) 10:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
WP:NAME states, "article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources." Reliable sources include books and magazines. One index shows 60,700 titles referencing "chicken little" and less than half as many (just 28,800) titles referencing "henny penny". Ironically, the search likely INFLATES the number of "henny penny" references, since many renderings of the story include both "Chicken Little" as the star and "Henny Penny" as a separate supporting character.
When Disney chose to name it's 2005 computer-animated film "Chicken Little", Disney was intending to connect with an already-existing name MOST RECOGNIZABLE to the entire English-speaking community. I'm the last to bow to the wisdom of the mousehouse, but whatever the case may have been before 2005, the release of a major motion picture would have stomped out alternatives in the years since.
Perhaps it's likely that "Chicken Little" was not the protagonist's name in the very earliest recorded versions of the story, but so what? Typically, Wikipedia doesn't care about that at all when naming articles. The guideline WP:NAME also states, "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles".
I'm American, incidentally, and most familiar with the name "Chicken Little" long before 2005. Even as a child, I noticed that the name "Chicken Little" is gender-ambiguous so that the lesson contains no gender-bias. Also, the versions I heard as a child reinforced the idea that the hysteria was greatly compounded by unskeptical repetition; the REPETITION was by characters with REPETITIOUS names (eg Henny Penny, Turkey Lurkey, et al). But...both lessons are spoiled when the hysteria originates from an obvious female (a hen) whose name has the same repetitive construct as subsequent characters who repeat her hysteria. Regardless of my original research, the greater ubiquity of the name "Chicken Little" should be reflected in the article title. I suppose I'll wait a bit before moving it.-- →gab 24dot grab← 02:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
This article itself is in both Category:Fictional chickens and Category:Fictional birds. I removed the latter because it's redundant with the former. However, someone reverted me, saying that the article should match all the story's characters. In that case, then it would make sense for this article to belong in all of Category:Fictional chickens, Category:Fictional ducks, Category:Fictional geese, Category:Fictional turkeys, and Category:Fictional foxes. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy ( talk) 16:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
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In Season 6, Episode 26 of the Golden Girls, "Henny Penny — Straight, No Chaser" (May 4, 1991) an entire episode is devoted to the Fairy tale. In citing a television episode, if one includes the necessary information inline (show, season, episode and title) as editor 331dot pointed out: "no source is needed as the plot can be confirmed by watching/reading the subject itself." In keeping with the song lyrics of the other referenced content, I have included a YouTube clip from the episode which should suffice alone; given that this is the only other source provided in this section. In keeping with WP:POPCULTURE: "all such references should be discussed in at least one reliable secondary or tertiary source which specifically links the cultural item to the subject of the article. This source should cover the subject of the article in some depth; it should not be a source about the cultural item which merely mentions the subject." The source: " Fine Feather Friends" complies with this far more than song lyrics that hint at the mention of the Fairy tale and/or verse found within: "Did ya hear what happened to the world today? Somebody came an' they took it away". The source: Golden Girls Fashion site discusses at length not only the episode, the transcript, the fashion, but offers video clips. Thank you. Maineartists ( talk) 14:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)