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An Anon changed the disambig to an article which is really about philhellenism which has a separate article. I've reverted back to the dismabig page.
From Anon: I was wondering what was happening there! I moved the philhellenism part to the end of the article, and linked to it. But to be clear, my definition of Hellenism (from Winckelmann onward) is separate from a definition of philhellenism. Hellenism is a brand of neoclassicism; philhellenism is a political advocacy grounded in contemporaneity. Apologies for the confusion. If you want to remove the article again, I won't re-replace it--but I'm writing a Ph.D dissertation on this topic (hence the bibliography of sources)--you can trust me!
Fair enough--I'll retitle the entry Hellenism (neoclassicism). But let me assure you, there's nothing controversial about what I'm saying in the entry--it's the standard definition of Hellenism you'd find in any of the books I've cited in my bibliography.
It's done--thank you for the tip--I'm new to Wikipedia. I created an account and added the entry Hellenism (neoclassicism)
For the sake of completeness we ought to note that "Hellenism" can also refer to the hellenizing movement in Hellenistic Judaism. Twospoonfuls 21:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Twospoonfuls: Of course it can refer to the Hellenization of Judaism, since it refers to Greek influence in any manner, especially during the period starting with Alexander's attacks on Byzantium up until the death of Hypatia. Even if one wants to confine Hellenism to Droysen's original usage, the whole point of the term (for him) was to speak about the vast and complex process by which the Greeks influenced cultures near and far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKamaila ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
In seeking to disambiguate links pointing to this page, it appears that there are at least two uses of "Hellenism" that aren't accounted for. First, some sources (particularly modern Greek sources) seem to use the term as a synonym for Greek culture or Greek nationalism. Second, some articles seem to use the term in a historical context as a synonym for Greek mythology or "paganism" as practiced during the Hellenistic period, and use the word as if "Hellenism" were a religion like Christianity or Judaism. Not being an expert in this field, it isn't clear to me whether these should be listed as additional meanings on the disambiguation page, or whether the links should be edited to replace this term with more appropriate ones. Comments welcome. -- Russ (talk) 21:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I added the section on historical usage because I can't see anywhere else to put it, and felt it was kinda relevant to any discussion of Hellenism. If anyone has any comments or can think of a better place to put it, please say. I also have (a lot) of references for the various usages but I'm not sure how to put them on as they're mainly names and dates rather than full book references - typical of the 17th century. Thanks. Tbarker 08:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You're absolutely correct. The anonymous doctoral student (above) has the best grasp of what the term means in modern academic terms, and I wish their edits could be reinstituted. Is there a reason why this article keeps getting edited back to being about some other topic? However, the term is not merely used to talk about certain forms of advocacy (academic or otherwise) of Greek culture, but definitely to refer to cultural movements involving any aspect of Greek culture. This is particular true in archaeology. History is not the only field using the term, that's for sure. 69.108.139.110 ( talk) 20:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Dr. Kama'ila (November 22, 2007)
I want to suggest something that I can't do myself, a) because I don't know the first thing about this subject (except for what I just learned from Wikipedia :-), and b) because I don't have the time.
There are quite a number of articles about Hellenism that partially overlap, and it's not quite clear which of them are really needed as separate articles and how their respective domains should be delimited:
(and perhaps further ones that I haven't come across). There is also an article on Hellenistic Greece, which is specifically about Hellenistic Greece (as the name implies), but which for some reason has been chosen as the source/target of the cross-links to/from the foreign-language articles on Hellenism / the Hellenistic period, of which the German, Spanish and French ones are featured and are indeed in many respects more informative than the four listed above.
I suggest that someone with an overview of the subject make a proposal how best to reorganize these four articles into fewer (perhaps just one?) articles; then during the reorganization material from the featured foreign-language articles could be incorporated.
Joriki ( talk) 15:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S.: I just noticed that there is already a proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Hellenistic World for reorganizing Hellenistic period and Hellenistic Greece. Perhaps this can be expanded to include Hellenism, Hellenization and Hellenistic civilization?
By the way, the fact that these articles belong to different projects in each case illustrates the disorder that results from the present setup.
Joriki ( talk) 16:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, this page, as well as its subdirectories, are full of mistakes or wrong definitions or interpretations and the main pages should be completely rewritten by an Hellenist. In addition, pages are corrupted by Greek or Macedonian politics and disputes. These include not only the discussion pages, that are full of personal opinions of non-professionals which are void or irrelevant, but also some main pages. Please make some efforts to restore a similar page that earlier existed at Wikipedia. Thank you. Draganparis ( talk) 13:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC) User:Draganparis|Draganparis]] ( talk) 08:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
This is my addapted answer to one comment of Brando130 on my talk page. It apples also to other interventions of some people who insist on using “Hellenism” as a poltical term. I put it since this is appropriate page for this and it summarises the problem.
It appears that some Wikipedia “players” purposefully resist my warnings not to use the “Hellenism” as a poltitical notion. Brieflly: it would be a mistake to replace surreptitiously „Hellenism“ with „pan-Hellenism“, i. e. mix “cultural history” with “political history”, and to identify “cultural” with “ethnic”. The illustrative example is when the notion “Hellenic state” is used instead of the “Macedonian state”. Not to mix cultural history with political history is long established method of history writing and serves against the misuse of History for some other, most often, political purposes. The jurisdiction of number of West European countries sanctions the breaches against fair presentation of history, particularly if they may lead to nationalistic, ethnic and racist consequences. So please comply with this. I think I explained sufficiently well in other places what this means. I am ready to explain it again if you still did not grasp it. If you are lacking background to fully understand this, I will be pleased to expand even more on the subject, but not on the Wikipedia pages. Violating these established principles of modern, fair and multicultural society, in spite of being warned, may have serious and unpleasant consequences. Draganparis ( talk) 19:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The above may be true. Why don't we consider some change that may be not only correct but would provide a solution to the contemporary problems. In the 338 BC the Ancient Greece, and by the 323 almost entire known world was under Macedonian rule, Greek was the official language, the culture was a mixture between Greek and Asian culture. The Macedonian Empire, or the Diadochi Macedonian kingdoms were defined the world. Rome was growing, to take control of Macedonian kingdoms in the mid of the 2nd century BC. Rome of course inherited that culture that become later the European culture, enriched by the other European later developments. Greece was for the first time in a unified state under Macedonians making just one part of the large Macedonian dominion and empire. Greece was incorporated into Macedonia and that culture could be called Helleno-Macedonian in fact, since it had a lot of Asian elements. Alexander the Great wanted this in fact and this was effectively accomplished. The language was Greek but the culture universal. Macedonia and Rome were then the predecessors of our European states and culture. Greece inherited important sections of its culture from Egypt and Persia, to handle it to Macedonians and Romans. The term “Hellenism” has racist and ethnocentric connotation, unsuitable to our understanding of culture today. It would be correct to call that culture not Hellenistic but Macedono-Roman instead - a much larger term then Hellenism that would then refere to just Greek contribution to that culture. Since the present „Macedonians“ are not the same people, this would probably solve the problem of the name of the FYROM and remove the danger from racist Greek „Hellenism“ and get rid of FYROM nonsence claim that their ancestors are the Ancient Macedonians. Greece would also profit from having finally its own, specific cultural unity and specificity. What do you think? Ys this is OR, but... Are there historians who would support such new definitions? Greekxyz ( talk) 14:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
There is only one true disambiguation here, Hellenistic period vs. Hellenism (neoclassicism) and I think it is obvious which is the primary. All other link targets are "Hellenistic $SOMETHING" and do not stictly belong under disambiguation for "Hellenism". Ok, as a marginal third, there is Hellenism (religion), which is misnamed under WP:UCN anyway and should be moved, as " Hellenism (religion)" if anywhere should point to Hellenistic religion. -- dab (𒁳) 09:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hellenism page. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Disambiguation | ||||
|
An Anon changed the disambig to an article which is really about philhellenism which has a separate article. I've reverted back to the dismabig page.
From Anon: I was wondering what was happening there! I moved the philhellenism part to the end of the article, and linked to it. But to be clear, my definition of Hellenism (from Winckelmann onward) is separate from a definition of philhellenism. Hellenism is a brand of neoclassicism; philhellenism is a political advocacy grounded in contemporaneity. Apologies for the confusion. If you want to remove the article again, I won't re-replace it--but I'm writing a Ph.D dissertation on this topic (hence the bibliography of sources)--you can trust me!
Fair enough--I'll retitle the entry Hellenism (neoclassicism). But let me assure you, there's nothing controversial about what I'm saying in the entry--it's the standard definition of Hellenism you'd find in any of the books I've cited in my bibliography.
It's done--thank you for the tip--I'm new to Wikipedia. I created an account and added the entry Hellenism (neoclassicism)
For the sake of completeness we ought to note that "Hellenism" can also refer to the hellenizing movement in Hellenistic Judaism. Twospoonfuls 21:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Twospoonfuls: Of course it can refer to the Hellenization of Judaism, since it refers to Greek influence in any manner, especially during the period starting with Alexander's attacks on Byzantium up until the death of Hypatia. Even if one wants to confine Hellenism to Droysen's original usage, the whole point of the term (for him) was to speak about the vast and complex process by which the Greeks influenced cultures near and far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKamaila ( talk • contribs) 19:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
In seeking to disambiguate links pointing to this page, it appears that there are at least two uses of "Hellenism" that aren't accounted for. First, some sources (particularly modern Greek sources) seem to use the term as a synonym for Greek culture or Greek nationalism. Second, some articles seem to use the term in a historical context as a synonym for Greek mythology or "paganism" as practiced during the Hellenistic period, and use the word as if "Hellenism" were a religion like Christianity or Judaism. Not being an expert in this field, it isn't clear to me whether these should be listed as additional meanings on the disambiguation page, or whether the links should be edited to replace this term with more appropriate ones. Comments welcome. -- Russ (talk) 21:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I added the section on historical usage because I can't see anywhere else to put it, and felt it was kinda relevant to any discussion of Hellenism. If anyone has any comments or can think of a better place to put it, please say. I also have (a lot) of references for the various usages but I'm not sure how to put them on as they're mainly names and dates rather than full book references - typical of the 17th century. Thanks. Tbarker 08:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You're absolutely correct. The anonymous doctoral student (above) has the best grasp of what the term means in modern academic terms, and I wish their edits could be reinstituted. Is there a reason why this article keeps getting edited back to being about some other topic? However, the term is not merely used to talk about certain forms of advocacy (academic or otherwise) of Greek culture, but definitely to refer to cultural movements involving any aspect of Greek culture. This is particular true in archaeology. History is not the only field using the term, that's for sure. 69.108.139.110 ( talk) 20:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Dr. Kama'ila (November 22, 2007)
I want to suggest something that I can't do myself, a) because I don't know the first thing about this subject (except for what I just learned from Wikipedia :-), and b) because I don't have the time.
There are quite a number of articles about Hellenism that partially overlap, and it's not quite clear which of them are really needed as separate articles and how their respective domains should be delimited:
(and perhaps further ones that I haven't come across). There is also an article on Hellenistic Greece, which is specifically about Hellenistic Greece (as the name implies), but which for some reason has been chosen as the source/target of the cross-links to/from the foreign-language articles on Hellenism / the Hellenistic period, of which the German, Spanish and French ones are featured and are indeed in many respects more informative than the four listed above.
I suggest that someone with an overview of the subject make a proposal how best to reorganize these four articles into fewer (perhaps just one?) articles; then during the reorganization material from the featured foreign-language articles could be incorporated.
Joriki ( talk) 15:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S.: I just noticed that there is already a proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome#Hellenistic World for reorganizing Hellenistic period and Hellenistic Greece. Perhaps this can be expanded to include Hellenism, Hellenization and Hellenistic civilization?
By the way, the fact that these articles belong to different projects in each case illustrates the disorder that results from the present setup.
Joriki ( talk) 16:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, this page, as well as its subdirectories, are full of mistakes or wrong definitions or interpretations and the main pages should be completely rewritten by an Hellenist. In addition, pages are corrupted by Greek or Macedonian politics and disputes. These include not only the discussion pages, that are full of personal opinions of non-professionals which are void or irrelevant, but also some main pages. Please make some efforts to restore a similar page that earlier existed at Wikipedia. Thank you. Draganparis ( talk) 13:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC) User:Draganparis|Draganparis]] ( talk) 08:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
This is my addapted answer to one comment of Brando130 on my talk page. It apples also to other interventions of some people who insist on using “Hellenism” as a poltical term. I put it since this is appropriate page for this and it summarises the problem.
It appears that some Wikipedia “players” purposefully resist my warnings not to use the “Hellenism” as a poltitical notion. Brieflly: it would be a mistake to replace surreptitiously „Hellenism“ with „pan-Hellenism“, i. e. mix “cultural history” with “political history”, and to identify “cultural” with “ethnic”. The illustrative example is when the notion “Hellenic state” is used instead of the “Macedonian state”. Not to mix cultural history with political history is long established method of history writing and serves against the misuse of History for some other, most often, political purposes. The jurisdiction of number of West European countries sanctions the breaches against fair presentation of history, particularly if they may lead to nationalistic, ethnic and racist consequences. So please comply with this. I think I explained sufficiently well in other places what this means. I am ready to explain it again if you still did not grasp it. If you are lacking background to fully understand this, I will be pleased to expand even more on the subject, but not on the Wikipedia pages. Violating these established principles of modern, fair and multicultural society, in spite of being warned, may have serious and unpleasant consequences. Draganparis ( talk) 19:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The above may be true. Why don't we consider some change that may be not only correct but would provide a solution to the contemporary problems. In the 338 BC the Ancient Greece, and by the 323 almost entire known world was under Macedonian rule, Greek was the official language, the culture was a mixture between Greek and Asian culture. The Macedonian Empire, or the Diadochi Macedonian kingdoms were defined the world. Rome was growing, to take control of Macedonian kingdoms in the mid of the 2nd century BC. Rome of course inherited that culture that become later the European culture, enriched by the other European later developments. Greece was for the first time in a unified state under Macedonians making just one part of the large Macedonian dominion and empire. Greece was incorporated into Macedonia and that culture could be called Helleno-Macedonian in fact, since it had a lot of Asian elements. Alexander the Great wanted this in fact and this was effectively accomplished. The language was Greek but the culture universal. Macedonia and Rome were then the predecessors of our European states and culture. Greece inherited important sections of its culture from Egypt and Persia, to handle it to Macedonians and Romans. The term “Hellenism” has racist and ethnocentric connotation, unsuitable to our understanding of culture today. It would be correct to call that culture not Hellenistic but Macedono-Roman instead - a much larger term then Hellenism that would then refere to just Greek contribution to that culture. Since the present „Macedonians“ are not the same people, this would probably solve the problem of the name of the FYROM and remove the danger from racist Greek „Hellenism“ and get rid of FYROM nonsence claim that their ancestors are the Ancient Macedonians. Greece would also profit from having finally its own, specific cultural unity and specificity. What do you think? Ys this is OR, but... Are there historians who would support such new definitions? Greekxyz ( talk) 14:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
There is only one true disambiguation here, Hellenistic period vs. Hellenism (neoclassicism) and I think it is obvious which is the primary. All other link targets are "Hellenistic $SOMETHING" and do not stictly belong under disambiguation for "Hellenism". Ok, as a marginal third, there is Hellenism (religion), which is misnamed under WP:UCN anyway and should be moved, as " Hellenism (religion)" if anywhere should point to Hellenistic religion. -- dab (𒁳) 09:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)