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The text about GPS and Bluetooth -- "the principles of their work are incorporated into Bluetooth and GPS technology and are similar to methods used in legacy versions of CDMA and Wi-Fi" -- is misleading. The principles of Frequency Hopping predate Lamarr and Antheil by several decades and there is no evidence their work or any principles of their work were incorporated into GPS and Bluetooth. The sentence as written implies the principles originated with their work, and further implies a lineage from their work to GPS and Bluetooth where no such lineage exists.
The text should be written more clearly "the principles of Frequency Hopping were already well known decades before Lamarr and Antheil's patent. The same principles are used today in GPS and Bluetooth. The novelty of Lamarr and Antheil's patent was to solve the problem using a mechanical device but their solution proved impractical and led nowhere." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.77.147 ( talk) 03:40, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
The claims made under the heading "Inventor" are largely without any authoritative sources, and contradicted by a wealth of evidence. For example, the article claims "Among the few who knew of Lamarr's inventiveness was aviation tycoon Howard Hughes. She suggested he change the rather square design of his aeroplanes (which she thought looked too slow) to a more streamlined shape, based on pictures of the fastest birds and fish she could find." (emphasis added) The source cited for this claim is an article in Vanity Fair -- a periodical that is hardly a reliable source for facts regarding the history of science. And the author of that article -- a 27(-ish) year-old entertainment writer -- provided no sources for her claims (other than an old interview with Lamarr), nor did the writer have any relevant expertise. But Lamarr's claims (repeated in Vanity Fair) are easily shown to be groundless hearsay. Hughes and Lamarr first met in 1938. Three years earlier, Hughes' aircraft design the "H-1" had already established itself as the fastest airplane on earth, and it was as streamlined as any aircraft would be for at least the next 5 years. No one could accurately describe it as un-aerodynamic or "rather square". Furthermore, Hughes' aircraft designs appear to have evolved from the H-1 without any significant deviations brought about by Lamarr's "advice". These fly in the face of Lamarr's later claims that she "showed it to Howard Hughes and he said, 'You're a genius'." (from that Vanity Fair article) Furthermore, every aircraft designer since Leonardo da Vinci, through Otto Lilienthal and the Wright Brothers, up to Hughes himself, had already studied the shapes of birds to draw inspiration for aircraft design. Claiming that Lamarr was in any way original in her suggestion to Hughes (if indeed she ever made such a suggestion -- we are expected to take her word for it) displays an abject ignorance of the history of heavier-than-air craft. Again, the piece in Vanity Fair cannot be considered a reliable source when it comes to the history of scientific invention. Do any credible sources in that domain make any such claim? Not that I have been able to find. The Vanity Fair article claims "Do you like Wi-Fi? You can thank Lamarr for that" -- a claim so laughably ahistoric that it ought to discredit anything else the author writes. There is a reason why neither the WP article on Wi-Fi, nor the one on IEEE 802.11 make any mention whatsoever of Lamarr, and that reason is that she had nothing to do with them. She and George Antheil (who was at least familiar with player piano technology) co-filed a patent on using player piano rolls to skip frequencies on radio-guided torpedoes. Antheil does not seem to have left any documentation as to why he and Lamarr are listed on the patent as co-authors (perhaps he was charmed by her; perhaps he thought her profile would help him commercialize the technology), but the point is moot, since the technology the patent describes was never implemented. This is hardly surprising since electromechanical devices were quickly becoming obsolete in 1942. The final sentence in the "Inventions" section states "In 2014, Lamarr and Antheil were posthumously inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame". At the relevant page on the NIHF website it states that Lamarr "had at one time been married to a munitions manufacturer, giving her the foundation for her knowledge of weapons systems, including torpedo control systems. Again, this is nonsense. Lamarr was indeed (briefly) Married to Friedrich Mandl who inherited the Otto Eberhardt Patronenfabrik from his father. But that company never produced "torpedo control systems"; in fact, the Kriegsmarine never even used radio-controlled torpedoes in WWII; they were all either acoustically-guided, or simply straight-running. So Lamarr could not have had any relevant knowledge from which to draw "expertise" about "torpedo control systems". Bricology ( talk) 08:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
According to PBS: "Discover the role of women in World War II in this video from the American Masters film Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story. Hedy Lamarr invented frequency hopping—a technology that could have provided a significant advantage to the United States military in the war—but the Navy shelved her idea and told her to sell war bonds instead. By selling war bonds, she engaged in something deemed more appropriate for a woman, especially a glamorous actress." Although you are probably correct that she did not invent frequency hopping, at least she did contribute something to the war effort 🙂 Abricru ( talk) 19:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
see this link - https://www.intomore.com/culture/the-beautiful-possibly-bisexual-actress-who-helped-invent-wireless-technology/
shouldn't this be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.144.46 ( talk) 18:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Simple mistake; Ms Lamarr was not considered a great actress, but rather a great beauty 38.77.40.75 ( talk) 04:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
I just posted the same thing. sorry I didn't see your comment, but I do agree. Abricru ( talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Why does Hedy Lamar's page read like George Antheil did most of the work on the invention, but George Antheil's page reads like it was a joint venture? 2600:1700:55C1:AB0:60AC:FF8C:57E6:FFF2 ( talk) 11:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The heading state that Lammar laid down the essential priniciples for bluetooth and GPS technologies. I have three main problems with this statement:
1. Lammar most probably wasn't a pioneer and didn't invent frequency hopping, several scientists independently from each other published works that included everything there is in the patent on her name decades before it was subscribed.
2. Is there any reliable source (i.e., from peer reviewed scientific journal that discuss the history of the technology in scientific rigor) that show how Lammars' work is specifically and directly essential and/or part of bluetoothe and GPS technologies? I think exceptional arguements needs exceptional evidence. Such source could also clarify whether she was a pioneer at all.
3. The friend of Lammar who also share with her the patent on the frequency hopping device happened to hold masters degree in electrical engineering. The patent includes many technocal terms etc. Lammar as far as we know to the very least had no formal technological education so her part in the patent should be questioned and verified, yet that no one did it is wondering by itself.
I think Wikipedia articles should be more objective and better informing than popular media reports. Basically this is WP guide lines. Therefore my suggestion is to remove any content that presents her as technological genius (basically glorifying her, against WP policy), pioneer of adavanced technology and inventor of the technology behind bluetooth and GPS unless one can support it with reliable academic source that show she actually pioneered the technology and that her work is essentical for GPS and bluetooth.
This source for instance (not in scientific journal but yet detailed) is taking from Lammar most of the credit given to her in this wikipedia article. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilisa ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
References
While Hedy Lamar is universally considered one of the most strikingly beautiful movie stars of all time, it is a bit of a stretch to call her one of the greatest actresses of all time.
She never won nor was nominated for any of the major acting awards such as the Academy Award, Golden Globe, SAG, etc.
I think it would be more accurate to say she was one of the most beautiful actresses of all times. Abricru ( talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
If this is bogus, why quote from it so often? 125.209.157.246 ( talk) 06:15, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
This section is not internally consistent. It states that she and her husband adopted James. Later we learn that James was her biological son born out of wedlock. I suggest restructuring this section ordered by date of marriage, divorce, or birth. Rklawton ( talk) 00:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Ruth Barton's 2010 book makes a very short reference to Lamarr accusing a repairman that she had been dating for some months of raping her at gunpoint. I have no idea of how to put this in the main page but it does show Lamarr in a totally different light. On page 217. The coverage is very brief but it is backed by other sources I've seen. Why this keeps getting overlooked make me question if some volunteers don't want to include negative information.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Hedy_Lamarr/ypCyObpZaGoC?hl=en&gbpv=0&kptab=overview 92.40.5.83 ( talk) 17:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Barton's source for this information is different to the one I've seen. She cites: New York Herald Tribine, 21 Janurary 1958. Perhaps someone would be good enough to check if someone has digitised that and pop the citation in. I'd do it myself but it should be clear from my discussion that I'm pretty much useless at editing articles because I don't have the encyclopaedic knowledge of all the tags and requirements. Surely this citation found in a citation (so the original source in effect) is enough. I've already tagged another story that covered this and the fact that Lamarr lost spectacularly, though nowhere near the damages that Blyth sought. It also seems to be the case that Blyth was, perhaps, a little "odd" as referenced here. But the fact this woman, worshipped by so many for her beauty and "inventions" almost put a man away for many years based on just her word (or was prepared to) speaks volumes about the inner workings of a complex and damaged human being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.5.83 ( talk) 18:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
The fact that she was inducted into the "Inventors Hall of Fame" is enough for her to be considered an "Inventor" by Wikipedia. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them. It's not Wikipedia's job to 2nd guess the decisions made by these types of organizations.
2600:1700:10DE:30C0:350D:51D1:C028:353B ( talk) 22:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
It seems odd to specify that she was born in 1914, not 1913, without giving any context as to why that's significant. It would be pretty weird if every biography opened with "she was born this year, not that year." I see that some references give 1913, but it should be explained in the article, I shouldn't have to go search for it. Philologick ( talk) 05:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
The way the text ends implies that the technology developed by Lamar and Antheil never saw any use after the fact. This feels contradictory to Antheil’s article where it is given mention that the technology was implemented in at least one instance in 1962. In addition, while I understand that the mention of her involvement in the eventual development of Wi-Fi is because that claim is currently being disputed, given the amount of attention regarding that idea I believe it should at minimum be given a comment in popular culture. At this point it at least bares mention Weevilabout ( talk) 01:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hedy Lamarr article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 11, 2010, August 11, 2011, August 11, 2014, and August 11, 2016. |
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The text about GPS and Bluetooth -- "the principles of their work are incorporated into Bluetooth and GPS technology and are similar to methods used in legacy versions of CDMA and Wi-Fi" -- is misleading. The principles of Frequency Hopping predate Lamarr and Antheil by several decades and there is no evidence their work or any principles of their work were incorporated into GPS and Bluetooth. The sentence as written implies the principles originated with their work, and further implies a lineage from their work to GPS and Bluetooth where no such lineage exists.
The text should be written more clearly "the principles of Frequency Hopping were already well known decades before Lamarr and Antheil's patent. The same principles are used today in GPS and Bluetooth. The novelty of Lamarr and Antheil's patent was to solve the problem using a mechanical device but their solution proved impractical and led nowhere." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.77.147 ( talk) 03:40, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
The claims made under the heading "Inventor" are largely without any authoritative sources, and contradicted by a wealth of evidence. For example, the article claims "Among the few who knew of Lamarr's inventiveness was aviation tycoon Howard Hughes. She suggested he change the rather square design of his aeroplanes (which she thought looked too slow) to a more streamlined shape, based on pictures of the fastest birds and fish she could find." (emphasis added) The source cited for this claim is an article in Vanity Fair -- a periodical that is hardly a reliable source for facts regarding the history of science. And the author of that article -- a 27(-ish) year-old entertainment writer -- provided no sources for her claims (other than an old interview with Lamarr), nor did the writer have any relevant expertise. But Lamarr's claims (repeated in Vanity Fair) are easily shown to be groundless hearsay. Hughes and Lamarr first met in 1938. Three years earlier, Hughes' aircraft design the "H-1" had already established itself as the fastest airplane on earth, and it was as streamlined as any aircraft would be for at least the next 5 years. No one could accurately describe it as un-aerodynamic or "rather square". Furthermore, Hughes' aircraft designs appear to have evolved from the H-1 without any significant deviations brought about by Lamarr's "advice". These fly in the face of Lamarr's later claims that she "showed it to Howard Hughes and he said, 'You're a genius'." (from that Vanity Fair article) Furthermore, every aircraft designer since Leonardo da Vinci, through Otto Lilienthal and the Wright Brothers, up to Hughes himself, had already studied the shapes of birds to draw inspiration for aircraft design. Claiming that Lamarr was in any way original in her suggestion to Hughes (if indeed she ever made such a suggestion -- we are expected to take her word for it) displays an abject ignorance of the history of heavier-than-air craft. Again, the piece in Vanity Fair cannot be considered a reliable source when it comes to the history of scientific invention. Do any credible sources in that domain make any such claim? Not that I have been able to find. The Vanity Fair article claims "Do you like Wi-Fi? You can thank Lamarr for that" -- a claim so laughably ahistoric that it ought to discredit anything else the author writes. There is a reason why neither the WP article on Wi-Fi, nor the one on IEEE 802.11 make any mention whatsoever of Lamarr, and that reason is that she had nothing to do with them. She and George Antheil (who was at least familiar with player piano technology) co-filed a patent on using player piano rolls to skip frequencies on radio-guided torpedoes. Antheil does not seem to have left any documentation as to why he and Lamarr are listed on the patent as co-authors (perhaps he was charmed by her; perhaps he thought her profile would help him commercialize the technology), but the point is moot, since the technology the patent describes was never implemented. This is hardly surprising since electromechanical devices were quickly becoming obsolete in 1942. The final sentence in the "Inventions" section states "In 2014, Lamarr and Antheil were posthumously inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame". At the relevant page on the NIHF website it states that Lamarr "had at one time been married to a munitions manufacturer, giving her the foundation for her knowledge of weapons systems, including torpedo control systems. Again, this is nonsense. Lamarr was indeed (briefly) Married to Friedrich Mandl who inherited the Otto Eberhardt Patronenfabrik from his father. But that company never produced "torpedo control systems"; in fact, the Kriegsmarine never even used radio-controlled torpedoes in WWII; they were all either acoustically-guided, or simply straight-running. So Lamarr could not have had any relevant knowledge from which to draw "expertise" about "torpedo control systems". Bricology ( talk) 08:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
According to PBS: "Discover the role of women in World War II in this video from the American Masters film Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story. Hedy Lamarr invented frequency hopping—a technology that could have provided a significant advantage to the United States military in the war—but the Navy shelved her idea and told her to sell war bonds instead. By selling war bonds, she engaged in something deemed more appropriate for a woman, especially a glamorous actress." Although you are probably correct that she did not invent frequency hopping, at least she did contribute something to the war effort 🙂 Abricru ( talk) 19:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
see this link - https://www.intomore.com/culture/the-beautiful-possibly-bisexual-actress-who-helped-invent-wireless-technology/
shouldn't this be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.144.46 ( talk) 18:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Simple mistake; Ms Lamarr was not considered a great actress, but rather a great beauty 38.77.40.75 ( talk) 04:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
I just posted the same thing. sorry I didn't see your comment, but I do agree. Abricru ( talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Why does Hedy Lamar's page read like George Antheil did most of the work on the invention, but George Antheil's page reads like it was a joint venture? 2600:1700:55C1:AB0:60AC:FF8C:57E6:FFF2 ( talk) 11:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The heading state that Lammar laid down the essential priniciples for bluetooth and GPS technologies. I have three main problems with this statement:
1. Lammar most probably wasn't a pioneer and didn't invent frequency hopping, several scientists independently from each other published works that included everything there is in the patent on her name decades before it was subscribed.
2. Is there any reliable source (i.e., from peer reviewed scientific journal that discuss the history of the technology in scientific rigor) that show how Lammars' work is specifically and directly essential and/or part of bluetoothe and GPS technologies? I think exceptional arguements needs exceptional evidence. Such source could also clarify whether she was a pioneer at all.
3. The friend of Lammar who also share with her the patent on the frequency hopping device happened to hold masters degree in electrical engineering. The patent includes many technocal terms etc. Lammar as far as we know to the very least had no formal technological education so her part in the patent should be questioned and verified, yet that no one did it is wondering by itself.
I think Wikipedia articles should be more objective and better informing than popular media reports. Basically this is WP guide lines. Therefore my suggestion is to remove any content that presents her as technological genius (basically glorifying her, against WP policy), pioneer of adavanced technology and inventor of the technology behind bluetooth and GPS unless one can support it with reliable academic source that show she actually pioneered the technology and that her work is essentical for GPS and bluetooth.
This source for instance (not in scientific journal but yet detailed) is taking from Lammar most of the credit given to her in this wikipedia article. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilisa ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
References
While Hedy Lamar is universally considered one of the most strikingly beautiful movie stars of all time, it is a bit of a stretch to call her one of the greatest actresses of all time.
She never won nor was nominated for any of the major acting awards such as the Academy Award, Golden Globe, SAG, etc.
I think it would be more accurate to say she was one of the most beautiful actresses of all times. Abricru ( talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
If this is bogus, why quote from it so often? 125.209.157.246 ( talk) 06:15, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
This section is not internally consistent. It states that she and her husband adopted James. Later we learn that James was her biological son born out of wedlock. I suggest restructuring this section ordered by date of marriage, divorce, or birth. Rklawton ( talk) 00:16, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Ruth Barton's 2010 book makes a very short reference to Lamarr accusing a repairman that she had been dating for some months of raping her at gunpoint. I have no idea of how to put this in the main page but it does show Lamarr in a totally different light. On page 217. The coverage is very brief but it is backed by other sources I've seen. Why this keeps getting overlooked make me question if some volunteers don't want to include negative information.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Hedy_Lamarr/ypCyObpZaGoC?hl=en&gbpv=0&kptab=overview 92.40.5.83 ( talk) 17:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Barton's source for this information is different to the one I've seen. She cites: New York Herald Tribine, 21 Janurary 1958. Perhaps someone would be good enough to check if someone has digitised that and pop the citation in. I'd do it myself but it should be clear from my discussion that I'm pretty much useless at editing articles because I don't have the encyclopaedic knowledge of all the tags and requirements. Surely this citation found in a citation (so the original source in effect) is enough. I've already tagged another story that covered this and the fact that Lamarr lost spectacularly, though nowhere near the damages that Blyth sought. It also seems to be the case that Blyth was, perhaps, a little "odd" as referenced here. But the fact this woman, worshipped by so many for her beauty and "inventions" almost put a man away for many years based on just her word (or was prepared to) speaks volumes about the inner workings of a complex and damaged human being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.5.83 ( talk) 18:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
The fact that she was inducted into the "Inventors Hall of Fame" is enough for her to be considered an "Inventor" by Wikipedia. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them. It's not Wikipedia's job to 2nd guess the decisions made by these types of organizations.
2600:1700:10DE:30C0:350D:51D1:C028:353B ( talk) 22:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
It seems odd to specify that she was born in 1914, not 1913, without giving any context as to why that's significant. It would be pretty weird if every biography opened with "she was born this year, not that year." I see that some references give 1913, but it should be explained in the article, I shouldn't have to go search for it. Philologick ( talk) 05:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
The way the text ends implies that the technology developed by Lamar and Antheil never saw any use after the fact. This feels contradictory to Antheil’s article where it is given mention that the technology was implemented in at least one instance in 1962. In addition, while I understand that the mention of her involvement in the eventual development of Wi-Fi is because that claim is currently being disputed, given the amount of attention regarding that idea I believe it should at minimum be given a comment in popular culture. At this point it at least bares mention Weevilabout ( talk) 01:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)