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Hi, Is there anything here that cannot or should not go under Hittite language? Perhaps one name or the other is better, but this page is already encompassed. Any thoughts? -- Mashford 13:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jeorge,
Hatto-Iberian/Hetto-Iberian is not Proto-Iberian. Hetto-Iberians refers only to the hypothetical grouping of Alarodian & Northwest Caucasian languages with Hattic. Georgians do not like the term so much because it excludes South-Caucasian so they use the wider term Proto-Iberian to include all tentatively related languages.
The relationship between Hattic & Northwest Caucasian (Circassian) is quite solid, but the relationship in the Wider Hetto-Iberian family is more controvercial, while its position in Proto-Iberian is something discussed only by linguists from the former Soviet states at present.
Zestauferov 11:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hi Zestauferov
I am intrigued by your description of the relationship between Hattic and NW Caucasian as 'solid'. Although this relationship has been proposed by Meszaros, Ardzinba, Braun, Chirikba, and Ivanov, many specialists have rejected these and suggest that Hattic is not discoverably related to any other family, living or dead. Girbal and Kabeskiri suggest a relationship with Kartvelian. Faehnrich suggests a relationship with East Caucasian. IMO none of these suggestions is solid either. Perhaps you could tell us what systematic correspondences there are which actually point to a relationship with NW Caucasian. Personally I find three things suspicious: a) feminines are formed by adding a -t; b) the unmarked form of the verb is the past tense; and c) the word for 'son', 'child' is 'bin'. IMO, this can only mean one thing: Hattic is Afroasiatic.
Best regards
Ed Robertson
Hi!
I have a book in Polish "Ludy i jezyki starozytnej Anatolii" which contains some information on Hattic. I will put it here just as a dump of information without any decent organization of it. The book has a chapter on Hattians but without specific subchapter on language, just some information scattered with additional references to works by Klinger, Dunaevskaja, Ardzinba, Chirikba, Braun and Taracha.
Hattic can be described as agglutinative, ergative and polisytetic. It is however significantly different than Hurrian.
Words in Hittire believed to be of Hattic origin: tabarna (king), tawananna (queen), tuhkanti (heir to the throne), hapalki (iron).
Other Hattic words: pinu (son), wel (house), wur (country), ashhab (god). (Note that I use "sh" for s with small "v" sign above).
Verb roots can be preceded by up to 6 prefixes in a fixed order: tVsh- indicates prohibition, tV- indicates wish, a- indicates transitivity, an- and ash- subject, ta- and she- locativity, ah- and h- and ha- object. After verb roots follow the suffices, with unclear meaning (except for -em that indicates negation).
There are separate prefixes indicating collectivity (wa-) and plural number (le-).
Possesive prefixes mentioned in the book: u- "your", i- "his", li- "their".
Nominal forms may be formed by reduplication.
That is all I can provide. My translation may be messy (Ia m not linguist), sorry about that.
/Jerzy
Over at Ian Hodder's Çatalhöyük web site, the discussion boards got into the question of what language might have been spoken at Çatalhöyük. Obviously, we don't have anything to go on, so all we have is sheer educated guesswork at best. But some have speculated that it might have been Hattic, or rather the ancestor of Hattic, or else another language in the same family as Hattic. The only basis for this is the fact that Hattic is just the earliest known language of Anatolia. There could easily have been other languages, which we'll never know, which died out unrecorded during the 3,000 years in between the end of population at Çatalhöyük and the attestation of Hattic. The area where Hattic was spoken, say around the easternmost bend of the Halys, was about 250 miles (400 km) to the northeast of Çatalhöyük. Not too far away. For prehistory fans who are into Anatolia, Hattic would be a great language to learn, being the only linguistic link to pre-Indo-European Anatolia, however tenuous. Too bad we know so little about it.
--Johanna
Johanna-Hypatia
19:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed from its south in:
"before the arrival of Nesian (ie, "Hittite") speakers from its south"
All early Indo-European migrations are hugely controversial -- any statement like that needs references.
Could someone please add a section on phonology and basic grammar. Tibetologist ( talk) 20:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I used "ş" for "sh" sound... These words are Hattic words! (NOT Hittite!)Source: http://www.palaeolexicon.com/ (please click Languages, find Hattic and click Word Index. (I also wrote this on Wiktionary). Böri ( talk) 15:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I've changed the spelling of the word "block" to "bloc" in the following sentence (footnotes removed):
"Certain similarities between Hattic and both Northwest (such as Abkhaz) and South Caucasian (Kartvelian) languages have led to proposals by some scholars about the possibility of a linguistic block, from central Anatolia to the Caucasus."
Please let me know if I did anything wrong.-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 21:53, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
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Hi, Is there anything here that cannot or should not go under Hittite language? Perhaps one name or the other is better, but this page is already encompassed. Any thoughts? -- Mashford 13:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jeorge,
Hatto-Iberian/Hetto-Iberian is not Proto-Iberian. Hetto-Iberians refers only to the hypothetical grouping of Alarodian & Northwest Caucasian languages with Hattic. Georgians do not like the term so much because it excludes South-Caucasian so they use the wider term Proto-Iberian to include all tentatively related languages.
The relationship between Hattic & Northwest Caucasian (Circassian) is quite solid, but the relationship in the Wider Hetto-Iberian family is more controvercial, while its position in Proto-Iberian is something discussed only by linguists from the former Soviet states at present.
Zestauferov 11:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hi Zestauferov
I am intrigued by your description of the relationship between Hattic and NW Caucasian as 'solid'. Although this relationship has been proposed by Meszaros, Ardzinba, Braun, Chirikba, and Ivanov, many specialists have rejected these and suggest that Hattic is not discoverably related to any other family, living or dead. Girbal and Kabeskiri suggest a relationship with Kartvelian. Faehnrich suggests a relationship with East Caucasian. IMO none of these suggestions is solid either. Perhaps you could tell us what systematic correspondences there are which actually point to a relationship with NW Caucasian. Personally I find three things suspicious: a) feminines are formed by adding a -t; b) the unmarked form of the verb is the past tense; and c) the word for 'son', 'child' is 'bin'. IMO, this can only mean one thing: Hattic is Afroasiatic.
Best regards
Ed Robertson
Hi!
I have a book in Polish "Ludy i jezyki starozytnej Anatolii" which contains some information on Hattic. I will put it here just as a dump of information without any decent organization of it. The book has a chapter on Hattians but without specific subchapter on language, just some information scattered with additional references to works by Klinger, Dunaevskaja, Ardzinba, Chirikba, Braun and Taracha.
Hattic can be described as agglutinative, ergative and polisytetic. It is however significantly different than Hurrian.
Words in Hittire believed to be of Hattic origin: tabarna (king), tawananna (queen), tuhkanti (heir to the throne), hapalki (iron).
Other Hattic words: pinu (son), wel (house), wur (country), ashhab (god). (Note that I use "sh" for s with small "v" sign above).
Verb roots can be preceded by up to 6 prefixes in a fixed order: tVsh- indicates prohibition, tV- indicates wish, a- indicates transitivity, an- and ash- subject, ta- and she- locativity, ah- and h- and ha- object. After verb roots follow the suffices, with unclear meaning (except for -em that indicates negation).
There are separate prefixes indicating collectivity (wa-) and plural number (le-).
Possesive prefixes mentioned in the book: u- "your", i- "his", li- "their".
Nominal forms may be formed by reduplication.
That is all I can provide. My translation may be messy (Ia m not linguist), sorry about that.
/Jerzy
Over at Ian Hodder's Çatalhöyük web site, the discussion boards got into the question of what language might have been spoken at Çatalhöyük. Obviously, we don't have anything to go on, so all we have is sheer educated guesswork at best. But some have speculated that it might have been Hattic, or rather the ancestor of Hattic, or else another language in the same family as Hattic. The only basis for this is the fact that Hattic is just the earliest known language of Anatolia. There could easily have been other languages, which we'll never know, which died out unrecorded during the 3,000 years in between the end of population at Çatalhöyük and the attestation of Hattic. The area where Hattic was spoken, say around the easternmost bend of the Halys, was about 250 miles (400 km) to the northeast of Çatalhöyük. Not too far away. For prehistory fans who are into Anatolia, Hattic would be a great language to learn, being the only linguistic link to pre-Indo-European Anatolia, however tenuous. Too bad we know so little about it.
--Johanna
Johanna-Hypatia
19:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed from its south in:
"before the arrival of Nesian (ie, "Hittite") speakers from its south"
All early Indo-European migrations are hugely controversial -- any statement like that needs references.
Could someone please add a section on phonology and basic grammar. Tibetologist ( talk) 20:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I used "ş" for "sh" sound... These words are Hattic words! (NOT Hittite!)Source: http://www.palaeolexicon.com/ (please click Languages, find Hattic and click Word Index. (I also wrote this on Wiktionary). Böri ( talk) 15:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I've changed the spelling of the word "block" to "bloc" in the following sentence (footnotes removed):
"Certain similarities between Hattic and both Northwest (such as Abkhaz) and South Caucasian (Kartvelian) languages have led to proposals by some scholars about the possibility of a linguistic block, from central Anatolia to the Caucasus."
Please let me know if I did anything wrong.-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 21:53, 18 August 2019 (UTC)