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Why are all references to his role in Forced Repatriation removed? He has been accused of being a war criminal by many people, that pov should be represented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 23:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why do we list the grandchildren and even who they married? PaddyBriggs 08:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why remove the Harold Macmillan out of my edit to "Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton." That's his name, although his original first name was Maurice. To me your revert of this has no value. -- 65.73.0.137
James F's revertion was correct. He simply returned the page to the standard format previously agreed and followed. FearÉIREANN 15:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
The full title I installed in does fit the caption. What do you think should be done? Keep James F's revertion, use my version, "Harold Macmillan", "Maurice Harold Macmillan", or "Maurice Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton"? -- 65.73.0.137
(I was previously 65.73.0.137) Hi! I think I get the point of the Prime Ministers' titles. Those are what they must be called officially (and not so much colloquially). I wasn't aware of it, especially since I'm an American and I don't live in England. -- Marcus2
The Supermac label was applied by cartoonist Victor Weisz, better known as Vicky. It was intended as mockery, but backfired badly.
Vicky's Supermac - Introduction by Michael Foot - £14.99 (£11.99 to PCS Members)
A unique anthology of the finest examples of Vicky's best known creation 'Supermac' (Harold Macmillan) to mark the 30th anniversary of the artist's death. Though 'Supermac' was originally intended as an attack on the Prime Minister, it somehow took on a positive role and in fact strengthened the image of the ageing Edwardian Prime Minister in the 1960s. Review of 1996 book
As for Mac the Knife, it is related to Mack the Knife, Vicky tried associating Harold Macmillan with this character from (I think) Bertolt Brecht. But I don't believe it ever caught on and should not be referenced as such.
See also this link -- GwydionM 21:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Deleted from Mack the Knife, include on this page or throw away (up to you): Probably coincidentally, Bobby Darin's version of the song was climbing the UK charts at the time of Macmillan's 1959 landslide election victory. Ewlyahoocom 21:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Was Macmillan bisexual? There is no mention in the biographies but I once saw Julian Clary on TV make a passing jokey reference to Macmillan's visits to the Turkish Bath (the famous London homosexual haunt which closed in the late 70s), and he used what seemed to be Macmillan's camp nickname...which, if I recall, had the word 'vapors' or 'steamy' in it. The audience laughed as if some were aware of it, as if it was underground folk knowledge, in the same way Mountbatten's sexuality was. It was an intriguing incident. I think Michael De-la-Noy's biography of Eddy, Lord Sackville-West, makes some reference to the young Mac in this vein. Does anyone have a copy to hand?
I found this on an Irish politics forum: 'Harold Macmillan's bisexuality, along with his transvesticism [sic], were widely gossiped about. A slightly drunk JFK, a friend of Macmillan's, once reportedly inquired of the British ambassador whether "Her Majesty and Her Majesty's Prime Minister shared the same dress designer?"' Engleham 11:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Macmillan was noted for his unflappability in public. One day in September 1960, the Soviet leader, Nikita Krushchev interrupted Macmillan in the middle of a speech before the United Nations. Khrushchev, who, it seemed, had removed one of his shoes, was repeatedly banging it on a table. Famously, Macmillan calmly continued speaking: "I'd like that translated, if I may."
The above was deleted in 2004 because it was uncited. It's a good story. Does anyone know its origins? It reveals something of the politician.
On the other hand, the personal stuff regarding the legitimacy (or otherwise) of the Macmillan's daughter is a rumour and is irrelevant to the fame of the subject. If this rumour is to remain in the article, then its source needs to be cited. -- Amandajm 04:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The official biography by Horne (1988-9) would be a good start, along with talk of a nervous breakdown in the early 1930s. On the other hand Boothby's biographer Robert Rhodes James claimed to have found a tape recording of Macmillan and Boothby discussing how SM was NOT Boothby's daughter, but I don't think anybody else believes this.
Having checked out the Robert Rhodes James biography of Boothby (1991) I'd say the affair of LD and Robert Boothby is historical fact, not a "rumour". LD was very young (<20) when she married HM, and was soon bored by him - as a younger man he was tedious and disliked by his Cavendish relations. LD seduced Boothby (not the other way round) and they pretty much lived openly together in the early 1930s after she had pursued Boothby abroad to force him to break off his engagement to an American. But HM refused to give LD a divorce, and RRJ agrees with Horne, Macmillan's official biographer, that the humiliation of his cuckolding put the iron into his soul and was the (political) making of him. Astonishingly, HM and Boothby remained on good terms throughout their lives.
Robert Rhodes James quotes some of the few surviving letters from that period. The rest were burned (all 700 of them) as discussed above.
In later years the Macmillan marriage continued for appearance's sake, although LD and Boothby remained the most important figure in each other's lives. There is a famous photo of HM and LD sitting at opposite ends of a bench which was edited, Soviet-style, to give the impression that they were sitting close together.
As to the paternity of SM, RRJ says that Boothby "accepted responsibility" for her, but also that she had "Macmillan eyes" and speculates that LD may have invented the story to try to get a divorce. He claims that another incident "too sensitive to relate" also casts doubt on this - I dare say this is the story of the secret tape recording which I was told at a dinner by RRJ's wife in the early 1990s. Others dismissed this story as absurd at the time.
The current version of the article categorically dismisses (without sourcing) reports of Boothby as the father: "Boothby was widely but incorrectly rumoured to have been the father of Macmillan's youngest daughter, Sarah." This degree of assertiveness seems to me to be entirely unjustified on the basis of the discussion on this page, and I am going to modify the statement. Nandt1 ( talk) 11:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add this regarding the death of his brother-in-law if I may:
On 26 November 1950, Lady Dorothy's brother Edward Cavendish, the 10th Duke of Devonshire had a heart attack whilst visiting Eastbourne. He was attended by John Bodkin Adams, the suspected serial killer, who was present when he died. The coroner was not notified as he should have been, despite the fact that the Duke had not seen a doctor in the 14 days before his death. Adams himself signed the death certificate stating that the Duke died of natural causes. 13 days before, Mrs Edith Alice Morrell, another patient of Adams, also died. Adams was tried in 1957 for her murder but controversially acquitted. [1] Malick78 13:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
References
And how about something regarding the controversy of British policing methods in Nyasaland? It produced both the Devlin and the Armitage Reports in 1959. Malick78 11:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
"His paternal grandfather, Daniel MacMillan (1813-1857), was the son of a Scottish crofter who founded Macmillan Publishers."
I was going to edit this, but thought I'd better make sure that it was actually Daniel, rather than a Scottish crofter, who founded MacMillan Publishers. Can anyone confirm this? Dinch ( talk) 09:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
"Earl of Stockton" wasn't an "honorific suffix", it was his name. And we put a person's most recent name in their infobox. Proteus (Talk) 13:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Proteus it would be more useful if you would discus your removal of Prime Ministers names with the rest of us rather than unilaterally imposing your view and removing the names completely in what is coming close to edit warring on this issue. - Galloglass 18:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who knows about this guy flesh out the intro? It's far too short for such a major person and makes the page look embarrassingly underdeveloped. Malick78 ( talk) 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The intro currently states:
"but his unwillingness to disclose United States nuclear secrets to France led to a French veto of the United Kingdom's entry into the European Economic Community...", supported by a reference which I have not read and do not have easy access to. It is commonly accepted that De Gaulle vetoed UK entry into the Common Market because France felt threatened by the UK - US alliance. It is not common knowledge that the French demanded that American nuclear technology be handed over to them by Britain, and that the membership veto was in response to the UK's refusal to do so. That is a quite surprising allegation to me, although I confess to having no special knowledge of Macmillan or of the period. I certainly tho would like someone to provide the exact wording referred to, if they have easy access to the source. This seems to me to be a very striking statement that ought to be confirmed to everyone's satisfaction - if subject matter experts can clarify in more detail, it would be greatly appreciated. Badgerpatrol ( talk) 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I have fully protected this article (so that only admins can edit it) after being notified by a msg on my talk page that there is an edit war under way. The edit summaries also contain allegations of sockpuppetry by a banned user, which I have not had a chance to check out, but if editors want to raise this matter they can do by making a request at WP:CHECKUSER.
In accordance with wikipedia's protection policy, I have protected the article at its latest version, without regard to the current content. The reason I used full-protection rather than semi-protection is that at this point I think that this may just be a content dispute, in which case semi-protection would be unfair to the anon IPs who have adding the disputed material. Please discuss the disputed issue here, and if there is consensus for any edits then the {{ editprotected}} template can be used to summon an admin to implement the changes. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 00:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
His mother was American, as the revival of the 'special relationship' is mentioned and he is well known for his assertion that the British were to the Americans as were the Greeks to the Romans, her nationality is significant. Could this be added to the article? Dean Armond ( talk) 07:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that Macmillan left Eton after only one "half" (ie term), but I doubt this. And if he did, where did he continue his education in order for him to get an exhibition to Balliol? "Who's Who" makes no mention of any school other than Eton. Ausseagull ( talk) 09:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This is one of the least interesting and encyclopaedic things about him. We need to know the main things he did as prime minister. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 19:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Are common or garden back-bench MPs entitled to "The Hon" in the UK? We show him as The Hon from 29 October 1924 to 30 May 1929, and again from 4 November 1931 to 1942. Members are referred to as "The Honourable Member" within the chamber, but that does not necessarily mean they get "The Hon" as a prenominal. Also, such a style is never lost, unless subsumed in The Rt Hon etc. but we have Macmillan losing it when he left the parliament. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
N.B., the early part of this discussion was copied from the Talk page of User:Lachrie to the Talk page for Harold Macmillian.
You removed a section from Robert Boothby, Baron Boothby saying that the rumor had been refuted, but that doesn't mean the rumor never existed. Better to say that he was long-rumored to be her father, but that your source denies it based on [whatever the evidence is]. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 13:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
N.B., At this stage, the discussion to date was copied from the Talk page of User:Lachrie to the Talk page for Harold Macmillian. Nandt1 ( talk) 23:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The paperback edition of Thorpe's biography has finally reached my remote colonial outpost. While some on this page have endeavored to suggest that the rumor of Boothby's paternity was "trivial" and not even worth covering at all, it seems evident that Macmillan himself agonized over the story -- at who knows what psychological cost -- before finally plucking up the courage to tackle Boothby about it after decades of uncertainty. I have tried to summarize Thorpe's reasoning for dismissing Boothby as the father in a footnote to the article, in large part because I believe readers deserve the chance to draw their own conclusions about how persuasive Thorpe's evidence may (or may not) be on this point. Nandt1 ( talk) 15:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC) Nandt1 ( talk) 21:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
For personal reasons, Nandt1 will not be in a position to edit on Wikipedia for the next month. He respectfully asks his fellow editors to edit responsibly, on this and other articles, during his absence from the scene. Nandt1 ( talk) 13:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
As explained, I haven't got time for editing contests at this point, but I will note for the record that Lachrie's reversion consisted of completely removing all reference to the paternity issue from the article. Undue weight indeed! This is censorship pure and simple. It has never received any support from any other user here, but seems to be a continuing idee fixe with this particular user, the motivation for whose drive to cover-up these facts still remains obscure. Nandt1 ( talk) 20:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
With some regret, my one month's absence from editing Wikipedia actually has to start now. I leave with some concern as to what I will find when I return. Nandt1 ( talk) 14:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Now that I have internet access again, I am keen to put this matter to rest. I am also conscious that a collaborative exercise like Wikipedia requires compromises, and sometimes these have to be at the level of the Least Common Denominator. I see that about a month ago you wrote: "All that's required to say is that Sarah Macmillan's paternity was regarded as uncertain." Much as I would personally support giving the explanatory details, adopting your own language word-for-word is preferable to the article's present silence on the matter, and so I propose to use your formulation verbatim in the article. If this is the most we can agree on, then so be it. Nandt1 ( talk) 16:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Rjensen. You have changed the section in the Harold Macmillan article dealing with Sarah Macmillan to reassert the old claim of Boothby's paternity. Could I please ask you to present at this Talk page your justification for changing this text. As you will see above, there has already been a very lengthy set of exchanges on this issue which resulted in the compromise text that you altered. Is your source indeed better than hte latest (Thorpe) biography of HM? I don't know, but if you think so, I think this needs to be argued here. Thank you for your understanding. Nandt1 ( talk) 14:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The section on the Profumo affair presently contains the sentence "He survived a Parliamentary vote with a majority of 69, one fewer than had been thought necessary for his survival, and was afterwards joined in the smoking-room only by his son and son-in-law, not by any Cabinet minister." Presumably the son-in-law was Julian Amery, but further down the article lists Amery as a member of the Cabinet. Opera hat ( talk) 10:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Is macmillan the PM who squashed talk about an anti-smoking policy, since it brought in so much money and killed off working class pensioners quickly? Keith-264 ( talk) 21:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7427001.stm Keith-264 ( talk) 10:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
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I removed a great deal of text added by an IP editor from the south-east of England, one who extensively cited a 2009 book by Charles Williams: Harold Macmillan. The IP editor has used the following IP addresses:
According to the Daily Mail, "Charles Williams is a retired businessman who spoke for Labour in the House of Lords before he turned to writing, producing serviceable biographies of De Gaulle, Petain, Adenauer and Don Bradman." I believe the author has a Wikipedia biography at Charles Williams, Baron Williams of Elvel.
I have removed the work of this IP editor because of its overreliance on a single source, for failing to adhere to WP:NPOV, and for WP:UNDUE emphasis on certain aspects of Macmillan's life. For instance, Macmillan's involvement with the Suez Crisis is given too much emphasis by the IP editor, with collusion and deceit colouring the verbiage. Later, the IP calls the first UK hydrogen bomb test a "supposed British triumph." Williams's conjecture is given voice by the IP, regarding a possible reason for Macmillan accepting an earldom (because of his failing eyesight).
I would like to see a more balanced expansion of this article using more than just the Williams biography. Binksternet ( talk) 22:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't believe anything the Daily Mail said. ( 92.7.0.36 ( talk) 22:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC))
Sure I have, but Williams' book is far more up to date and uses material the others didn't have access to. ( 92.7.0.36 ( talk) 23:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC))
I never argued that the UK won the Suez Crisis (except militarily of course). All I am saying is there is no way we cannot go into detail about Macmillan's heavy involvemrnt in its planning and execution for his article on this site - especially as it was the event that made him Prime Minister. ( 92.7.5.181 ( talk) 14:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC))
The IP editor 92.7.x.x has been repeatedly blocked, including yesterday and today, for edit warring. He is an insistent revert warrior. Please keep an eye out for further dynamic IPs in the general range making non-mainstream edits and quickly restoring them after being reverted. Here is a list of IPs that have been used by the editor:
Here's a list of articles that interest this IP editor:
Let's keep these articles as neutral as possible, with a broad scope in sourcing. Binksternet ( talk) 17:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I fail to see how it is wrong to call the UK nuclear missiles a deterrent, as this was during the Cold War and the Soviet Union had threatened to launch rockets against London during the Suez Crisis (although this may have been a bluff). ( AdrianCoyle ( talk) 17:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC))
I am not a sockpuppet. I think it is interesting in view of the ongoing civil war in Syria that Macmillan and President Eisenhower discussed invading Syria in the autumn of 1957. This is hugely important in terms of Macmillan's foreign policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.24.144 ( talk) 18:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Not encyclopedic in the least, but the picture being used in the infobox is just awesome. Marvelous. Just saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.160.113 ( talk) 06:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Macmillan....redrew the world map by decolonising sub-Saharan Africa.
This statement, in the introductory section of this page, is rather sweeping and suspectedly Anglocentric - the issue of allowing independence to countries in sub-Saharan Africa was also being faced by France, Belgium and Portugal, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. I sit more comfortably with the discussion in the section dealing with his Premiership that he was "a major proponent of decolonization"; the implementation of decolonization was another matter, with Portugal not finally relinquishing its sub-Saharan colonies until the 1970s. Also, it implies all sub-Saharan Africa was decolonized - where does this leave the then white-governed South Africa (not a crown colony before it became a republic) and Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)? Cloptonson ( talk) 15:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Am presently preparing some material for the biographies of Asquith and Lloyd George. As part of the abortive "land campaign" (abortive because the autumn 1914 general election never took place, for obvious reasons), I've come across a mention of Lloyd George speaking at the Oxford Union on 21 November 1913. I remember a mention in Macmillan's memoirs about how he had been impressed by his dazzling oratory, "as if a Cleon or a Danton had suddenly invaded our quiet academic groves". I dare say he laid on every cheap trick of oratory and debating to overawe his student listeners. It's probably the same occasion, although one can't be exactly sure unless some book specifically says so. It will make a useful footnote to Lloyd George's biography in due course.
There was also, iirc, an occasion in the 1920s or 1930s where Lloyd George had a quiet word with Macmillan after one of the lengthy, dreary speeches for which Macmillan was famous at that time, and advised him to make two or three points and make them well, rather than a dozen or more points as if he were writing an academic paper - that caused Macmillan to modify his speaking style and probably belongs in Macmillan's biog. Paulturtle ( talk) 12:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
D.R.Thorpe says that the Falklands War Cabinet was set up specifically on Macmillan's advice. Having a think about this, I'm sure there must have been other people giving her the same advice, so if anybody has a copy of Charles Moore's recent tome(s) handy and that is what he says, it can be amended to say that he was one of several who "advised her thusly" as Sheldon Cooper would put it. I do recall that the exclusion of the Treasury was very much his advice, although as John Campbell points out, if Eden had "excluded the Treasury" in 1956 events might have turned out somewhat differently. Paulturtle ( talk) 02:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
The quote is referring to the way the Suez Crisis was played for ruthless political advantage by the then Chancellor, who saw, late in life, the only chance he was ever going to get of becoming Prime Minister and seized it with both hands. Paulturtle ( talk) 20:08, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Thorpe has said many things in many books over the years, many of them quite silly. The theory which he "dismisses" on this occasion, probably rightly, is the specific conspiracy theory that Macmillan encouraged Eden down the path of folly in the full knowledge and perfect foresight that it would end in disaster and that it would make him Prime Minister. That more generally he played matters for "ruthless political advantage" is simple fact, and it was the culmination of 10 years or more of ever harder elbowing by a man whose chances had come late in life. It is not uncommon in British political history for a "strongman" to come to power as a result of a ballsup for which he is significantly responsible - people under stress look for a leader - but on this occasion Macmillan was devoting a lot more of his energies to intrigue than, say, Churchill at the time of Narvik. But what would have happened if a strong Prime Minister who managed to keep the Americans on side had told the chancellor that he was not invited to strategy meetings and that his job was to devote all his energies to what is nowadays known as liquidity management or be replaced by somebody who could, we shall never know. Paulturtle ( talk) 12:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Not quite. British leaders for the decade or so after WW2 (Bevin, Eden) certainly wanted to pursue an independent, or at any rate semi-independent, foreign policy - staying aloof from west European integration, remaining a major regional power in the Middle East, being treated as a near-equal rather than an important subordinate by the USA - and what made Suez such a watershed was that these things suddenly ceased to be so. And again, things might have been different if the British economy hadn't suddenly started to fall so badly behind continental Europe from the late 1950s onwards - instead of suddenly outpacing everybody else as it did after US Independence, the previous occasion when Britain had been written off as a world power. But I think this discussion has run its course, don't you? Paulturtle ( talk) 13:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The Suez Canal Base Agreement of 1954 had nothing to do with US pressure as far as I'm aware. It was negotiated by Eden (Churchill had little active involvement in government by then, after his stroke - he just made the odd puckish speech, whinged about things he didn't like and annoyed his ministers by coming up with endless fresh excuses to postpone his retirement). Britain needed the troops for Malaya, we still had the Cyprus Base and a Suez Base was seen as unnecessary now that Yugoslavia, Turkey, Iraq and Pakistan were being drawn into regional pro-western alliances. On one of his trips to Washington in summer 1954 Churchill actually asked President Ike to lean on the Egyptians to get them to sign. As for Britain pursuing an independent line, have a read about how cross Acheson was when Eden tried to get Krisha Menon involved in brokering a peace deal over Korea. See pp.990s of Martin Gilbert Vol 8, and John Charmley's critical work on Anglo-American relations, which makes no mention of American pressure over the Suez Base. Are you Harvey Carter's latest reincarnation? Paulturtle ( talk) 14:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't doubt that the US Administration shed few tears about Britain pulling out of Egypt in 1954, but that doesn't mean they put direct pressure on the UK to do so. You haven't presented evidence that this was so. As for Indian independence, the US pressure was really a bit earlier than that, after the suppression of the "Quit India" rising in WW2, the lionisation of Nehru and Gandhi by the US press, the Louis Johnson mission, the failure of the Cripps Mission, etc. Indian independence was really only a matter of time by 1943-4, but it probably would have happened with or without US pressure (because there were a lot more Indians than there were British) and as with withdrawal from the Suez Base in 1954, Churchill did little besides whinge about it and make "Victorian" comments at Cabinet meetings. Now, you don't seem very deeply informed about any of this stuff and whilst I don't mind a courteous discussion we have strayed far off topic, i.e. how to improve the article about Harold Macmillan, and you do just seem to be hobbyhorsing. Enough, please. Paulturtle ( talk) 15:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The paragraph beginning:
is at the least out-of-place. It may even have been orphaned from some other discussion that was trimmed. What incident is being talked about? What/when was this monopolization? All-in-all, huh? Shenme ( talk) 01:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Somebody recently posted a link to the "London Gazette" for 1920 stating that Macmillan held the rank of and was demobilised as a lieutenant in 1920. And yet he called himself "captain", a claim universally accepted by his biographers. Amongst the possibilities are: a) The "London Gazette" is wrong; b) he was given another promotion (I had a look for it but couldn't find it); or c) Macmillan was lying, or bending the truth by using an acting rank which he had held.
I have to say I think it's pretty unlikely either that a) a grown man in his mid-twenties with distinguished war service would be demobilised as a lieutenant, whereas calling oneself "captain" was perfectly respectable in the interwar period or that b) a public figure would have lied repeatedly about something like that and risked public disgrace if discovered, although I suppose it was easier to fib in those days when records were harder to check and the faux officer (e.g. Captain Peacock, who turns out really to have been a corporal) or man with an invented war record was a familiar type.
I didn't find anything in Vol I of his memoirs, and the biographies do differ a little. Horne 1989 (p.52) says he spent "a year as a captain 1919-20" whereas Williams 2008 (p.55) says he was promoted prior to demobilisation. I can't see where they are getting their information from so there may be some guesswork or sloppy writing going on here.
I'm not normally one to get uptight about "Original Research" - rules are there, as the saying goes, for the guidance of the wise and the blind obedience of fools, and the rule against Original Research is there to stop people from writing bollocks in articles, not to stop competent people from flagging up when the books are clearly in error. However, I think on this occasion it's a step too far to decide that Macmillan was a fibber (about this particular matter) and that all his biographers are wrong on the basis of looking up the "London Gazette". I've left the "London Gazette" in there but I think we have to go with "captain" unless more evidence comes to light. Paulturtle ( talk) 05:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Charles Williams died on 30 December and his obituary said that he researched his biographies (de Gaulle, Adenauer, Macmillan) in the House of Lords library. Perfectly workmanlike books, but not based on any great digging, so the answer to the above is probably "guesswork". Paulturtle ( talk) 21:30, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Paragraph likely needs a re-write as over-emphasises some details in the article ... e.g. use of bold and term 'permanent way'. Understand 1955 modernisation plan was thought by 1960's not to be giving a good investment/return ratio and Beeching was appointed to review and recommend. The report was published under MacMillan's term but adopted subsequent to it. Understand MacMillan may have had reservations. He also is reputed to have has a life-long interest in railways. Redo'ing this paragraph in a way that is proportional to the article whilst remaining attributable to Macmillan with appropriate cites is beyond my skills. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 01:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
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"An hereditary peerage" sounds affected to me, and not usual British usage. DuncanHill ( talk) 00:05, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Isn't it true that he won the MC for an outstanding act of bravery, the rescue of a wounded soldier? If so, shouldn't this be mentioned, especially as I once heard him and Eden described as poltroons , or cowards, on TV. (Eden's similar MC is mentioned in his article.) Seadowns ( talk) 15:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd always thought he had won the MC for carrying a wounded soldier under fire, back to the British line, but perhaps I'm mistaken about the award, though I still believe he did this. I won't give the name of the person who called him and Eden cowards. 22:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Seadowns ( talk) I'll now give the name, it was Dr Jonathan Miller. Esedowns ( talk) 16:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
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The infobox mentions that he received the British War Medal and Victory Medal for his WWI service. However, he was serving on the frontline in France in 1915, notably at the Battle of Loos - would he not have also qualified for the 1914-15 Star thereby? Cloptonson ( talk) 20:25, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The section of his tenure as PM is too long...Thatcher, Major, etc. all have separate articles about their premierships. Ak-eater06 ( talk) 07:06, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
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Why are all references to his role in Forced Repatriation removed? He has been accused of being a war criminal by many people, that pov should be represented. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 23:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why do we list the grandchildren and even who they married? PaddyBriggs 08:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Why remove the Harold Macmillan out of my edit to "Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton." That's his name, although his original first name was Maurice. To me your revert of this has no value. -- 65.73.0.137
James F's revertion was correct. He simply returned the page to the standard format previously agreed and followed. FearÉIREANN 15:26, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
The full title I installed in does fit the caption. What do you think should be done? Keep James F's revertion, use my version, "Harold Macmillan", "Maurice Harold Macmillan", or "Maurice Harold Macmillan, The First Earl of Stockton"? -- 65.73.0.137
(I was previously 65.73.0.137) Hi! I think I get the point of the Prime Ministers' titles. Those are what they must be called officially (and not so much colloquially). I wasn't aware of it, especially since I'm an American and I don't live in England. -- Marcus2
The Supermac label was applied by cartoonist Victor Weisz, better known as Vicky. It was intended as mockery, but backfired badly.
Vicky's Supermac - Introduction by Michael Foot - £14.99 (£11.99 to PCS Members)
A unique anthology of the finest examples of Vicky's best known creation 'Supermac' (Harold Macmillan) to mark the 30th anniversary of the artist's death. Though 'Supermac' was originally intended as an attack on the Prime Minister, it somehow took on a positive role and in fact strengthened the image of the ageing Edwardian Prime Minister in the 1960s. Review of 1996 book
As for Mac the Knife, it is related to Mack the Knife, Vicky tried associating Harold Macmillan with this character from (I think) Bertolt Brecht. But I don't believe it ever caught on and should not be referenced as such.
See also this link -- GwydionM 21:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Deleted from Mack the Knife, include on this page or throw away (up to you): Probably coincidentally, Bobby Darin's version of the song was climbing the UK charts at the time of Macmillan's 1959 landslide election victory. Ewlyahoocom 21:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Was Macmillan bisexual? There is no mention in the biographies but I once saw Julian Clary on TV make a passing jokey reference to Macmillan's visits to the Turkish Bath (the famous London homosexual haunt which closed in the late 70s), and he used what seemed to be Macmillan's camp nickname...which, if I recall, had the word 'vapors' or 'steamy' in it. The audience laughed as if some were aware of it, as if it was underground folk knowledge, in the same way Mountbatten's sexuality was. It was an intriguing incident. I think Michael De-la-Noy's biography of Eddy, Lord Sackville-West, makes some reference to the young Mac in this vein. Does anyone have a copy to hand?
I found this on an Irish politics forum: 'Harold Macmillan's bisexuality, along with his transvesticism [sic], were widely gossiped about. A slightly drunk JFK, a friend of Macmillan's, once reportedly inquired of the British ambassador whether "Her Majesty and Her Majesty's Prime Minister shared the same dress designer?"' Engleham 11:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Macmillan was noted for his unflappability in public. One day in September 1960, the Soviet leader, Nikita Krushchev interrupted Macmillan in the middle of a speech before the United Nations. Khrushchev, who, it seemed, had removed one of his shoes, was repeatedly banging it on a table. Famously, Macmillan calmly continued speaking: "I'd like that translated, if I may."
The above was deleted in 2004 because it was uncited. It's a good story. Does anyone know its origins? It reveals something of the politician.
On the other hand, the personal stuff regarding the legitimacy (or otherwise) of the Macmillan's daughter is a rumour and is irrelevant to the fame of the subject. If this rumour is to remain in the article, then its source needs to be cited. -- Amandajm 04:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The official biography by Horne (1988-9) would be a good start, along with talk of a nervous breakdown in the early 1930s. On the other hand Boothby's biographer Robert Rhodes James claimed to have found a tape recording of Macmillan and Boothby discussing how SM was NOT Boothby's daughter, but I don't think anybody else believes this.
Having checked out the Robert Rhodes James biography of Boothby (1991) I'd say the affair of LD and Robert Boothby is historical fact, not a "rumour". LD was very young (<20) when she married HM, and was soon bored by him - as a younger man he was tedious and disliked by his Cavendish relations. LD seduced Boothby (not the other way round) and they pretty much lived openly together in the early 1930s after she had pursued Boothby abroad to force him to break off his engagement to an American. But HM refused to give LD a divorce, and RRJ agrees with Horne, Macmillan's official biographer, that the humiliation of his cuckolding put the iron into his soul and was the (political) making of him. Astonishingly, HM and Boothby remained on good terms throughout their lives.
Robert Rhodes James quotes some of the few surviving letters from that period. The rest were burned (all 700 of them) as discussed above.
In later years the Macmillan marriage continued for appearance's sake, although LD and Boothby remained the most important figure in each other's lives. There is a famous photo of HM and LD sitting at opposite ends of a bench which was edited, Soviet-style, to give the impression that they were sitting close together.
As to the paternity of SM, RRJ says that Boothby "accepted responsibility" for her, but also that she had "Macmillan eyes" and speculates that LD may have invented the story to try to get a divorce. He claims that another incident "too sensitive to relate" also casts doubt on this - I dare say this is the story of the secret tape recording which I was told at a dinner by RRJ's wife in the early 1990s. Others dismissed this story as absurd at the time.
The current version of the article categorically dismisses (without sourcing) reports of Boothby as the father: "Boothby was widely but incorrectly rumoured to have been the father of Macmillan's youngest daughter, Sarah." This degree of assertiveness seems to me to be entirely unjustified on the basis of the discussion on this page, and I am going to modify the statement. Nandt1 ( talk) 11:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I would like to add this regarding the death of his brother-in-law if I may:
On 26 November 1950, Lady Dorothy's brother Edward Cavendish, the 10th Duke of Devonshire had a heart attack whilst visiting Eastbourne. He was attended by John Bodkin Adams, the suspected serial killer, who was present when he died. The coroner was not notified as he should have been, despite the fact that the Duke had not seen a doctor in the 14 days before his death. Adams himself signed the death certificate stating that the Duke died of natural causes. 13 days before, Mrs Edith Alice Morrell, another patient of Adams, also died. Adams was tried in 1957 for her murder but controversially acquitted. [1] Malick78 13:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
References
And how about something regarding the controversy of British policing methods in Nyasaland? It produced both the Devlin and the Armitage Reports in 1959. Malick78 11:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
"His paternal grandfather, Daniel MacMillan (1813-1857), was the son of a Scottish crofter who founded Macmillan Publishers."
I was going to edit this, but thought I'd better make sure that it was actually Daniel, rather than a Scottish crofter, who founded MacMillan Publishers. Can anyone confirm this? Dinch ( talk) 09:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
"Earl of Stockton" wasn't an "honorific suffix", it was his name. And we put a person's most recent name in their infobox. Proteus (Talk) 13:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Proteus it would be more useful if you would discus your removal of Prime Ministers names with the rest of us rather than unilaterally imposing your view and removing the names completely in what is coming close to edit warring on this issue. - Galloglass 18:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who knows about this guy flesh out the intro? It's far too short for such a major person and makes the page look embarrassingly underdeveloped. Malick78 ( talk) 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The intro currently states:
"but his unwillingness to disclose United States nuclear secrets to France led to a French veto of the United Kingdom's entry into the European Economic Community...", supported by a reference which I have not read and do not have easy access to. It is commonly accepted that De Gaulle vetoed UK entry into the Common Market because France felt threatened by the UK - US alliance. It is not common knowledge that the French demanded that American nuclear technology be handed over to them by Britain, and that the membership veto was in response to the UK's refusal to do so. That is a quite surprising allegation to me, although I confess to having no special knowledge of Macmillan or of the period. I certainly tho would like someone to provide the exact wording referred to, if they have easy access to the source. This seems to me to be a very striking statement that ought to be confirmed to everyone's satisfaction - if subject matter experts can clarify in more detail, it would be greatly appreciated. Badgerpatrol ( talk) 18:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I have fully protected this article (so that only admins can edit it) after being notified by a msg on my talk page that there is an edit war under way. The edit summaries also contain allegations of sockpuppetry by a banned user, which I have not had a chance to check out, but if editors want to raise this matter they can do by making a request at WP:CHECKUSER.
In accordance with wikipedia's protection policy, I have protected the article at its latest version, without regard to the current content. The reason I used full-protection rather than semi-protection is that at this point I think that this may just be a content dispute, in which case semi-protection would be unfair to the anon IPs who have adding the disputed material. Please discuss the disputed issue here, and if there is consensus for any edits then the {{ editprotected}} template can be used to summon an admin to implement the changes. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 00:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
His mother was American, as the revival of the 'special relationship' is mentioned and he is well known for his assertion that the British were to the Americans as were the Greeks to the Romans, her nationality is significant. Could this be added to the article? Dean Armond ( talk) 07:41, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
It is claimed that Macmillan left Eton after only one "half" (ie term), but I doubt this. And if he did, where did he continue his education in order for him to get an exhibition to Balliol? "Who's Who" makes no mention of any school other than Eton. Ausseagull ( talk) 09:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
This is one of the least interesting and encyclopaedic things about him. We need to know the main things he did as prime minister. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 ( talk) 19:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Are common or garden back-bench MPs entitled to "The Hon" in the UK? We show him as The Hon from 29 October 1924 to 30 May 1929, and again from 4 November 1931 to 1942. Members are referred to as "The Honourable Member" within the chamber, but that does not necessarily mean they get "The Hon" as a prenominal. Also, such a style is never lost, unless subsumed in The Rt Hon etc. but we have Macmillan losing it when he left the parliament. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 11:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
N.B., the early part of this discussion was copied from the Talk page of User:Lachrie to the Talk page for Harold Macmillian.
You removed a section from Robert Boothby, Baron Boothby saying that the rumor had been refuted, but that doesn't mean the rumor never existed. Better to say that he was long-rumored to be her father, but that your source denies it based on [whatever the evidence is]. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 13:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
N.B., At this stage, the discussion to date was copied from the Talk page of User:Lachrie to the Talk page for Harold Macmillian. Nandt1 ( talk) 23:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The paperback edition of Thorpe's biography has finally reached my remote colonial outpost. While some on this page have endeavored to suggest that the rumor of Boothby's paternity was "trivial" and not even worth covering at all, it seems evident that Macmillan himself agonized over the story -- at who knows what psychological cost -- before finally plucking up the courage to tackle Boothby about it after decades of uncertainty. I have tried to summarize Thorpe's reasoning for dismissing Boothby as the father in a footnote to the article, in large part because I believe readers deserve the chance to draw their own conclusions about how persuasive Thorpe's evidence may (or may not) be on this point. Nandt1 ( talk) 15:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC) Nandt1 ( talk) 21:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
For personal reasons, Nandt1 will not be in a position to edit on Wikipedia for the next month. He respectfully asks his fellow editors to edit responsibly, on this and other articles, during his absence from the scene. Nandt1 ( talk) 13:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
As explained, I haven't got time for editing contests at this point, but I will note for the record that Lachrie's reversion consisted of completely removing all reference to the paternity issue from the article. Undue weight indeed! This is censorship pure and simple. It has never received any support from any other user here, but seems to be a continuing idee fixe with this particular user, the motivation for whose drive to cover-up these facts still remains obscure. Nandt1 ( talk) 20:12, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
With some regret, my one month's absence from editing Wikipedia actually has to start now. I leave with some concern as to what I will find when I return. Nandt1 ( talk) 14:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Now that I have internet access again, I am keen to put this matter to rest. I am also conscious that a collaborative exercise like Wikipedia requires compromises, and sometimes these have to be at the level of the Least Common Denominator. I see that about a month ago you wrote: "All that's required to say is that Sarah Macmillan's paternity was regarded as uncertain." Much as I would personally support giving the explanatory details, adopting your own language word-for-word is preferable to the article's present silence on the matter, and so I propose to use your formulation verbatim in the article. If this is the most we can agree on, then so be it. Nandt1 ( talk) 16:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Rjensen. You have changed the section in the Harold Macmillan article dealing with Sarah Macmillan to reassert the old claim of Boothby's paternity. Could I please ask you to present at this Talk page your justification for changing this text. As you will see above, there has already been a very lengthy set of exchanges on this issue which resulted in the compromise text that you altered. Is your source indeed better than hte latest (Thorpe) biography of HM? I don't know, but if you think so, I think this needs to be argued here. Thank you for your understanding. Nandt1 ( talk) 14:44, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The section on the Profumo affair presently contains the sentence "He survived a Parliamentary vote with a majority of 69, one fewer than had been thought necessary for his survival, and was afterwards joined in the smoking-room only by his son and son-in-law, not by any Cabinet minister." Presumably the son-in-law was Julian Amery, but further down the article lists Amery as a member of the Cabinet. Opera hat ( talk) 10:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Is macmillan the PM who squashed talk about an anti-smoking policy, since it brought in so much money and killed off working class pensioners quickly? Keith-264 ( talk) 21:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7427001.stm Keith-264 ( talk) 10:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
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I removed a great deal of text added by an IP editor from the south-east of England, one who extensively cited a 2009 book by Charles Williams: Harold Macmillan. The IP editor has used the following IP addresses:
According to the Daily Mail, "Charles Williams is a retired businessman who spoke for Labour in the House of Lords before he turned to writing, producing serviceable biographies of De Gaulle, Petain, Adenauer and Don Bradman." I believe the author has a Wikipedia biography at Charles Williams, Baron Williams of Elvel.
I have removed the work of this IP editor because of its overreliance on a single source, for failing to adhere to WP:NPOV, and for WP:UNDUE emphasis on certain aspects of Macmillan's life. For instance, Macmillan's involvement with the Suez Crisis is given too much emphasis by the IP editor, with collusion and deceit colouring the verbiage. Later, the IP calls the first UK hydrogen bomb test a "supposed British triumph." Williams's conjecture is given voice by the IP, regarding a possible reason for Macmillan accepting an earldom (because of his failing eyesight).
I would like to see a more balanced expansion of this article using more than just the Williams biography. Binksternet ( talk) 22:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't believe anything the Daily Mail said. ( 92.7.0.36 ( talk) 22:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC))
Sure I have, but Williams' book is far more up to date and uses material the others didn't have access to. ( 92.7.0.36 ( talk) 23:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC))
I never argued that the UK won the Suez Crisis (except militarily of course). All I am saying is there is no way we cannot go into detail about Macmillan's heavy involvemrnt in its planning and execution for his article on this site - especially as it was the event that made him Prime Minister. ( 92.7.5.181 ( talk) 14:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC))
The IP editor 92.7.x.x has been repeatedly blocked, including yesterday and today, for edit warring. He is an insistent revert warrior. Please keep an eye out for further dynamic IPs in the general range making non-mainstream edits and quickly restoring them after being reverted. Here is a list of IPs that have been used by the editor:
Here's a list of articles that interest this IP editor:
Let's keep these articles as neutral as possible, with a broad scope in sourcing. Binksternet ( talk) 17:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I fail to see how it is wrong to call the UK nuclear missiles a deterrent, as this was during the Cold War and the Soviet Union had threatened to launch rockets against London during the Suez Crisis (although this may have been a bluff). ( AdrianCoyle ( talk) 17:14, 3 February 2012 (UTC))
I am not a sockpuppet. I think it is interesting in view of the ongoing civil war in Syria that Macmillan and President Eisenhower discussed invading Syria in the autumn of 1957. This is hugely important in terms of Macmillan's foreign policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.24.144 ( talk) 18:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Not encyclopedic in the least, but the picture being used in the infobox is just awesome. Marvelous. Just saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.160.113 ( talk) 06:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Macmillan....redrew the world map by decolonising sub-Saharan Africa.
This statement, in the introductory section of this page, is rather sweeping and suspectedly Anglocentric - the issue of allowing independence to countries in sub-Saharan Africa was also being faced by France, Belgium and Portugal, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. I sit more comfortably with the discussion in the section dealing with his Premiership that he was "a major proponent of decolonization"; the implementation of decolonization was another matter, with Portugal not finally relinquishing its sub-Saharan colonies until the 1970s. Also, it implies all sub-Saharan Africa was decolonized - where does this leave the then white-governed South Africa (not a crown colony before it became a republic) and Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe)? Cloptonson ( talk) 15:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Am presently preparing some material for the biographies of Asquith and Lloyd George. As part of the abortive "land campaign" (abortive because the autumn 1914 general election never took place, for obvious reasons), I've come across a mention of Lloyd George speaking at the Oxford Union on 21 November 1913. I remember a mention in Macmillan's memoirs about how he had been impressed by his dazzling oratory, "as if a Cleon or a Danton had suddenly invaded our quiet academic groves". I dare say he laid on every cheap trick of oratory and debating to overawe his student listeners. It's probably the same occasion, although one can't be exactly sure unless some book specifically says so. It will make a useful footnote to Lloyd George's biography in due course.
There was also, iirc, an occasion in the 1920s or 1930s where Lloyd George had a quiet word with Macmillan after one of the lengthy, dreary speeches for which Macmillan was famous at that time, and advised him to make two or three points and make them well, rather than a dozen or more points as if he were writing an academic paper - that caused Macmillan to modify his speaking style and probably belongs in Macmillan's biog. Paulturtle ( talk) 12:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
D.R.Thorpe says that the Falklands War Cabinet was set up specifically on Macmillan's advice. Having a think about this, I'm sure there must have been other people giving her the same advice, so if anybody has a copy of Charles Moore's recent tome(s) handy and that is what he says, it can be amended to say that he was one of several who "advised her thusly" as Sheldon Cooper would put it. I do recall that the exclusion of the Treasury was very much his advice, although as John Campbell points out, if Eden had "excluded the Treasury" in 1956 events might have turned out somewhat differently. Paulturtle ( talk) 02:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
The quote is referring to the way the Suez Crisis was played for ruthless political advantage by the then Chancellor, who saw, late in life, the only chance he was ever going to get of becoming Prime Minister and seized it with both hands. Paulturtle ( talk) 20:08, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Thorpe has said many things in many books over the years, many of them quite silly. The theory which he "dismisses" on this occasion, probably rightly, is the specific conspiracy theory that Macmillan encouraged Eden down the path of folly in the full knowledge and perfect foresight that it would end in disaster and that it would make him Prime Minister. That more generally he played matters for "ruthless political advantage" is simple fact, and it was the culmination of 10 years or more of ever harder elbowing by a man whose chances had come late in life. It is not uncommon in British political history for a "strongman" to come to power as a result of a ballsup for which he is significantly responsible - people under stress look for a leader - but on this occasion Macmillan was devoting a lot more of his energies to intrigue than, say, Churchill at the time of Narvik. But what would have happened if a strong Prime Minister who managed to keep the Americans on side had told the chancellor that he was not invited to strategy meetings and that his job was to devote all his energies to what is nowadays known as liquidity management or be replaced by somebody who could, we shall never know. Paulturtle ( talk) 12:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Not quite. British leaders for the decade or so after WW2 (Bevin, Eden) certainly wanted to pursue an independent, or at any rate semi-independent, foreign policy - staying aloof from west European integration, remaining a major regional power in the Middle East, being treated as a near-equal rather than an important subordinate by the USA - and what made Suez such a watershed was that these things suddenly ceased to be so. And again, things might have been different if the British economy hadn't suddenly started to fall so badly behind continental Europe from the late 1950s onwards - instead of suddenly outpacing everybody else as it did after US Independence, the previous occasion when Britain had been written off as a world power. But I think this discussion has run its course, don't you? Paulturtle ( talk) 13:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The Suez Canal Base Agreement of 1954 had nothing to do with US pressure as far as I'm aware. It was negotiated by Eden (Churchill had little active involvement in government by then, after his stroke - he just made the odd puckish speech, whinged about things he didn't like and annoyed his ministers by coming up with endless fresh excuses to postpone his retirement). Britain needed the troops for Malaya, we still had the Cyprus Base and a Suez Base was seen as unnecessary now that Yugoslavia, Turkey, Iraq and Pakistan were being drawn into regional pro-western alliances. On one of his trips to Washington in summer 1954 Churchill actually asked President Ike to lean on the Egyptians to get them to sign. As for Britain pursuing an independent line, have a read about how cross Acheson was when Eden tried to get Krisha Menon involved in brokering a peace deal over Korea. See pp.990s of Martin Gilbert Vol 8, and John Charmley's critical work on Anglo-American relations, which makes no mention of American pressure over the Suez Base. Are you Harvey Carter's latest reincarnation? Paulturtle ( talk) 14:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't doubt that the US Administration shed few tears about Britain pulling out of Egypt in 1954, but that doesn't mean they put direct pressure on the UK to do so. You haven't presented evidence that this was so. As for Indian independence, the US pressure was really a bit earlier than that, after the suppression of the "Quit India" rising in WW2, the lionisation of Nehru and Gandhi by the US press, the Louis Johnson mission, the failure of the Cripps Mission, etc. Indian independence was really only a matter of time by 1943-4, but it probably would have happened with or without US pressure (because there were a lot more Indians than there were British) and as with withdrawal from the Suez Base in 1954, Churchill did little besides whinge about it and make "Victorian" comments at Cabinet meetings. Now, you don't seem very deeply informed about any of this stuff and whilst I don't mind a courteous discussion we have strayed far off topic, i.e. how to improve the article about Harold Macmillan, and you do just seem to be hobbyhorsing. Enough, please. Paulturtle ( talk) 15:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
The paragraph beginning:
is at the least out-of-place. It may even have been orphaned from some other discussion that was trimmed. What incident is being talked about? What/when was this monopolization? All-in-all, huh? Shenme ( talk) 01:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Somebody recently posted a link to the "London Gazette" for 1920 stating that Macmillan held the rank of and was demobilised as a lieutenant in 1920. And yet he called himself "captain", a claim universally accepted by his biographers. Amongst the possibilities are: a) The "London Gazette" is wrong; b) he was given another promotion (I had a look for it but couldn't find it); or c) Macmillan was lying, or bending the truth by using an acting rank which he had held.
I have to say I think it's pretty unlikely either that a) a grown man in his mid-twenties with distinguished war service would be demobilised as a lieutenant, whereas calling oneself "captain" was perfectly respectable in the interwar period or that b) a public figure would have lied repeatedly about something like that and risked public disgrace if discovered, although I suppose it was easier to fib in those days when records were harder to check and the faux officer (e.g. Captain Peacock, who turns out really to have been a corporal) or man with an invented war record was a familiar type.
I didn't find anything in Vol I of his memoirs, and the biographies do differ a little. Horne 1989 (p.52) says he spent "a year as a captain 1919-20" whereas Williams 2008 (p.55) says he was promoted prior to demobilisation. I can't see where they are getting their information from so there may be some guesswork or sloppy writing going on here.
I'm not normally one to get uptight about "Original Research" - rules are there, as the saying goes, for the guidance of the wise and the blind obedience of fools, and the rule against Original Research is there to stop people from writing bollocks in articles, not to stop competent people from flagging up when the books are clearly in error. However, I think on this occasion it's a step too far to decide that Macmillan was a fibber (about this particular matter) and that all his biographers are wrong on the basis of looking up the "London Gazette". I've left the "London Gazette" in there but I think we have to go with "captain" unless more evidence comes to light. Paulturtle ( talk) 05:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Charles Williams died on 30 December and his obituary said that he researched his biographies (de Gaulle, Adenauer, Macmillan) in the House of Lords library. Perfectly workmanlike books, but not based on any great digging, so the answer to the above is probably "guesswork". Paulturtle ( talk) 21:30, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Paragraph likely needs a re-write as over-emphasises some details in the article ... e.g. use of bold and term 'permanent way'. Understand 1955 modernisation plan was thought by 1960's not to be giving a good investment/return ratio and Beeching was appointed to review and recommend. The report was published under MacMillan's term but adopted subsequent to it. Understand MacMillan may have had reservations. He also is reputed to have has a life-long interest in railways. Redo'ing this paragraph in a way that is proportional to the article whilst remaining attributable to Macmillan with appropriate cites is beyond my skills. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 01:53, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
"An hereditary peerage" sounds affected to me, and not usual British usage. DuncanHill ( talk) 00:05, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Isn't it true that he won the MC for an outstanding act of bravery, the rescue of a wounded soldier? If so, shouldn't this be mentioned, especially as I once heard him and Eden described as poltroons , or cowards, on TV. (Eden's similar MC is mentioned in his article.) Seadowns ( talk) 15:33, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd always thought he had won the MC for carrying a wounded soldier under fire, back to the British line, but perhaps I'm mistaken about the award, though I still believe he did this. I won't give the name of the person who called him and Eden cowards. 22:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC) Seadowns ( talk) I'll now give the name, it was Dr Jonathan Miller. Esedowns ( talk) 16:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:42, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
The infobox mentions that he received the British War Medal and Victory Medal for his WWI service. However, he was serving on the frontline in France in 1915, notably at the Battle of Loos - would he not have also qualified for the 1914-15 Star thereby? Cloptonson ( talk) 20:25, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
The section of his tenure as PM is too long...Thatcher, Major, etc. all have separate articles about their premierships. Ak-eater06 ( talk) 07:06, 22 February 2022 (UTC)