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Please excuse my english,I'm from a french speaking part of Canada...
About the word "Harmonium"
I was well pleased by your website and kept it on my desk kor further visits,yout site is very helpful.I presume your are includind North America in your marketing aims and if we're talking North american market,you might want to consider the french market of that area of the world.And this where the word "Harmonium" comes in as the name of the top 3 groups(my estimate) who's had the most important influence on North american french music.Iwas disapointed at first but I'm sure you can explain to me the point I must be missing to understand your point of view.
Thanks in advance for taking the time
Jean-Marc Williams
Québec,Canada —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.80.185.124 ( talk • contribs) 20:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC).
Should we split off the list of pieces using the harmonium? -- Dfeuer 17:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is fantastic - very descriptive. A link to an audio file (mp3, midi, ogg, etc.) featuring the Harmonium seems relevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.189.34.154 ( talk) 01:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
I'm sorry but this section has got to go. After someone (not me) added the advertisement tag it looks like someone has actually added even more irrelevant material about Indian performers and their status as geniuses. It's utterly unencyclopaedic, its sole purpose seems to be to name as many of the editor's favourite artists as possible, it does not cite any sources and the style and tone of the text are ridiculous and it's becoming longer than the main text about the harmonium. I will remove anything not to do with the samvadini itself. Nothingbutmeat ( talk) 13:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I think that the part about the Indian harmonium should be factored out into a separate article, and that the rest of the article should be merged with reed organ and pump organ. Comments/suggestions? I'm [dʒæˑkɫɜmbɚ] and I approve this message. 00:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Despite the "Lists of miscellaneous information should be avoided. Please relocate any relevant information into appropriate sections or articles" notice, this section remains a list of miscellaneous information, and the list keeps growing.
There is no reasonable way to rewrite the section in prose form, and retain all the information.
And I'm not sure how or why it is useful to enumerate every single instance of the use of the harmonium in popular music that anyone can come up with.
Maybe the best solution is to rewrite this as a short paragraph of examples of the use of the harmonium in popular music, retaining just four or five really notable examples (e.g., The Beatles)? -- Sarabseth ( talk) 18:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
People keep adding (and subtracting) names. Perhaps the list should be much shorter, and only include those for whom some proof of notability can be adduced? -- Sarabseth ( talk) 22:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Not sure if my view is the common one, but I (an American) am way more familiar with the term harmonium as meaning "those little hand-pump things Indians play". Is this variant the most likely one WP readers would be looking to learn about? If so, I suggest the lead more clearly indicate that the name applies to the small hand-pumped organs as well, and that the first pic be of the small Indian organs (maybe the pic currently second in the article). Thoughts? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Please only add referenced or noteworthy artists i.e. the following musicians use of the harmonium can all be verified on the artist (or album) article page.
All speculative unreferenced additions should be removed. Seventhirtyam ( talk) 22:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following comment [ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASarabseth&action=historysubmit&diff=411317012&oldid=405594303 was left on my Talk page}. Am copying the comment, as well as my response:
Hi, Sarabseth. Re-sorting categories in alphabetically order on
Harmonium seems to be odd and inconvenient for readers who know about harmonium.
For example, instrument classification categories such as:
follow widely accepted Musical instrument classification systems (Note:at least three different classification systems are complementary coexistent on Wikipedia category). If these categories are grouped on sequence of categories (i.e. placed on top or tail), readers are comfortably navigated to hierarchy of instrument family.
On the other hands, ethnic music categories such as
seem to be Indian subcontinent POV, because harmonium is widely used around the world.
Your alphabetic sorting ignore the difference of these two groups of category, and result seems to be inconvenient. You should admit the limit of your way. -- Clusternote ( talk) 04:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Your opinion is only a your POV.: isn't that a tautology?
Submitting such disputes for a Wikipedia:Third opinion seems to be the recommended course of action. I'll be happy to do so, if that's acceptable to you.
(BTW, there's no need to edit my comments. Every successive comment does not need to be indented further to the right. Successive indentation eventually starts to swallow up available page width. There's obviously no difficulty in distinguishing my response from your previous comment. That's really all that matters.) -- Sarabseth ( talk) 12:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
I've gone through the harmonium page and I think it has some great background on both varieties (Western and Indian) and a nice repertoire of pieces. However, I've also spotted some problems, some of which were mentioned in previous discussion sections. I will slowly try to fix them, as well as beef up some points. I am thinking mainly about:
1. Sorting out the classical repertoire list. Right now it's very messy: neither alphabetically ordered, nor chronologically. Sometimes the piece name is the first word and sometimes the composer's name. 2. The popular music section has a similar issue and the known citation issue. 3. It might be that other genres warrant more subsections. Not sure about it though. 4. Some basic description of the sound is missing, notably, the instrument range and dynamics. 5. There's little musical-acoustical research available, but I'll try to fill in on whatever there is. 6. Additional western version features: knee pedal functionality, forte and vox humana effects. These might go into construction. 7. I should be able to upload a sound sample as well.
Hopefully these changes will be satisfactory. Please follow up and let me know if you recognize any additional problems or see room for other improvements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robusticon ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Point 1 is complete for the time being with the addition of an introductory paragraph about general repertoire that be more appropriate at the end.
In the future, upon any modifications to this list, please try to stick to the current format: Surname, first-name. Piece Name... And order it alphabetically. It might prove useful to divide this list into periods (romantic/modern), or something similar. Robusticon ( talk) 04:22, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I started a new section about acoustics, beginning with some 19th century records. Upcoming are subsections about dynamics and timbre. I hope it's not going to be too "hardcore" in the upcoming sections, but let me know if it will be. Some Wikification is potentially needed here, but I hope it's only slight. Robusticon ( talk) 04:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
1)The hand pumped harmonium used in India, Pakistan, Afganistan, is no longer manufactured in Europe since 19th.
2)Differente techniques: European uses two hands.
3)Repertoire and music totally different.
I propose to make two articles: Hand-pumped harmonium and pedal-pumped harmonium. -- Opus88888 ( talk) 23:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
It's not just Latin America, Africa, East Asia, or Oceania. Given the prominence of North America in the lede, one would hope there's some substantive material about the harmonium in North America. If not, the second paragraph in the lede should probably be relegated to some other section. Sarabseth ( talk) 10:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I think that it's an important distinction to make between the two instrument versions and it could be made clearer while still kept within one page. The problem may be more semantic than encyclopedic, as there is no convenient semantic distinction now between the two variants. If one reads about any music for harmonium, it's left for their best judgment to figure out if it's Western or Indian (if the names are not very Indian, that is). For example, I had no idea who Shilpa Ray is and which kind of harmonium she plays until I saw that it's Indian, unlike the one played by most other Western artists listed.
I can also say that the small section I've started to add about acoustics refers just as well to American reed organs and the sound producing mechanisms appear to be identical for all those instruments.
P.S. I tried quite hard to find any reference or mention in English about Samvadini in scholarly literature (books and journals). But for the life of me, I couldn't find anything about it or about the names of the musicians referred to. Everything online about it looks recycled from one common source without a primary one ever cited. Unless some of the Hindi speaking contributors can come up with a reference in Hindi for it, I suggest to remove the Samvadini section. Robusticon ( talk) 04:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
portative organ, positive organ, pipe organ -- Opus88888 ( talk) 06:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
That's an amusing piece of hair-splitting, but the point is that we're talking about two very similar instruments with the same name.-- Sarabseth ( talk) 10:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Opus, you should've at least posted a mention here when you created Harmonium (hand-pumped) back in July. There's a ton of repetition between that article and this one, so I'm not seeing the utility at this point. What do folks think? Trim this article to make it mostly about the non-Indian harmonium and make a link, or delete Harmonium (hand-pumped) as an unnecessary WP:Fork and move its content all back here? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 04:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The article is getting pretty heavy with lists of names; anyone object to splitting them off to their own article? Said article could then have sub-sections for foot-pump and hand-pump, and maybe a sub-sub-section for Westerners using hand-pump ( Allen Ginsberg, Shilpa Ray, etc). Objections? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 04:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Harmonium redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please excuse my english,I'm from a french speaking part of Canada...
About the word "Harmonium"
I was well pleased by your website and kept it on my desk kor further visits,yout site is very helpful.I presume your are includind North America in your marketing aims and if we're talking North american market,you might want to consider the french market of that area of the world.And this where the word "Harmonium" comes in as the name of the top 3 groups(my estimate) who's had the most important influence on North american french music.Iwas disapointed at first but I'm sure you can explain to me the point I must be missing to understand your point of view.
Thanks in advance for taking the time
Jean-Marc Williams
Québec,Canada —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.80.185.124 ( talk • contribs) 20:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC).
Should we split off the list of pieces using the harmonium? -- Dfeuer 17:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the article is fantastic - very descriptive. A link to an audio file (mp3, midi, ogg, etc.) featuring the Harmonium seems relevant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.189.34.154 ( talk) 01:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
I'm sorry but this section has got to go. After someone (not me) added the advertisement tag it looks like someone has actually added even more irrelevant material about Indian performers and their status as geniuses. It's utterly unencyclopaedic, its sole purpose seems to be to name as many of the editor's favourite artists as possible, it does not cite any sources and the style and tone of the text are ridiculous and it's becoming longer than the main text about the harmonium. I will remove anything not to do with the samvadini itself. Nothingbutmeat ( talk) 13:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I think that the part about the Indian harmonium should be factored out into a separate article, and that the rest of the article should be merged with reed organ and pump organ. Comments/suggestions? I'm [dʒæˑkɫɜmbɚ] and I approve this message. 00:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Despite the "Lists of miscellaneous information should be avoided. Please relocate any relevant information into appropriate sections or articles" notice, this section remains a list of miscellaneous information, and the list keeps growing.
There is no reasonable way to rewrite the section in prose form, and retain all the information.
And I'm not sure how or why it is useful to enumerate every single instance of the use of the harmonium in popular music that anyone can come up with.
Maybe the best solution is to rewrite this as a short paragraph of examples of the use of the harmonium in popular music, retaining just four or five really notable examples (e.g., The Beatles)? -- Sarabseth ( talk) 18:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
People keep adding (and subtracting) names. Perhaps the list should be much shorter, and only include those for whom some proof of notability can be adduced? -- Sarabseth ( talk) 22:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Not sure if my view is the common one, but I (an American) am way more familiar with the term harmonium as meaning "those little hand-pump things Indians play". Is this variant the most likely one WP readers would be looking to learn about? If so, I suggest the lead more clearly indicate that the name applies to the small hand-pumped organs as well, and that the first pic be of the small Indian organs (maybe the pic currently second in the article). Thoughts? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 00:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Please only add referenced or noteworthy artists i.e. the following musicians use of the harmonium can all be verified on the artist (or album) article page.
All speculative unreferenced additions should be removed. Seventhirtyam ( talk) 22:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following comment [ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3ASarabseth&action=historysubmit&diff=411317012&oldid=405594303 was left on my Talk page}. Am copying the comment, as well as my response:
Hi, Sarabseth. Re-sorting categories in alphabetically order on
Harmonium seems to be odd and inconvenient for readers who know about harmonium.
For example, instrument classification categories such as:
follow widely accepted Musical instrument classification systems (Note:at least three different classification systems are complementary coexistent on Wikipedia category). If these categories are grouped on sequence of categories (i.e. placed on top or tail), readers are comfortably navigated to hierarchy of instrument family.
On the other hands, ethnic music categories such as
seem to be Indian subcontinent POV, because harmonium is widely used around the world.
Your alphabetic sorting ignore the difference of these two groups of category, and result seems to be inconvenient. You should admit the limit of your way. -- Clusternote ( talk) 04:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Your opinion is only a your POV.: isn't that a tautology?
Submitting such disputes for a Wikipedia:Third opinion seems to be the recommended course of action. I'll be happy to do so, if that's acceptable to you.
(BTW, there's no need to edit my comments. Every successive comment does not need to be indented further to the right. Successive indentation eventually starts to swallow up available page width. There's obviously no difficulty in distinguishing my response from your previous comment. That's really all that matters.) -- Sarabseth ( talk) 12:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
I've gone through the harmonium page and I think it has some great background on both varieties (Western and Indian) and a nice repertoire of pieces. However, I've also spotted some problems, some of which were mentioned in previous discussion sections. I will slowly try to fix them, as well as beef up some points. I am thinking mainly about:
1. Sorting out the classical repertoire list. Right now it's very messy: neither alphabetically ordered, nor chronologically. Sometimes the piece name is the first word and sometimes the composer's name. 2. The popular music section has a similar issue and the known citation issue. 3. It might be that other genres warrant more subsections. Not sure about it though. 4. Some basic description of the sound is missing, notably, the instrument range and dynamics. 5. There's little musical-acoustical research available, but I'll try to fill in on whatever there is. 6. Additional western version features: knee pedal functionality, forte and vox humana effects. These might go into construction. 7. I should be able to upload a sound sample as well.
Hopefully these changes will be satisfactory. Please follow up and let me know if you recognize any additional problems or see room for other improvements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robusticon ( talk • contribs) 03:01, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Point 1 is complete for the time being with the addition of an introductory paragraph about general repertoire that be more appropriate at the end.
In the future, upon any modifications to this list, please try to stick to the current format: Surname, first-name. Piece Name... And order it alphabetically. It might prove useful to divide this list into periods (romantic/modern), or something similar. Robusticon ( talk) 04:22, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I started a new section about acoustics, beginning with some 19th century records. Upcoming are subsections about dynamics and timbre. I hope it's not going to be too "hardcore" in the upcoming sections, but let me know if it will be. Some Wikification is potentially needed here, but I hope it's only slight. Robusticon ( talk) 04:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
1)The hand pumped harmonium used in India, Pakistan, Afganistan, is no longer manufactured in Europe since 19th.
2)Differente techniques: European uses two hands.
3)Repertoire and music totally different.
I propose to make two articles: Hand-pumped harmonium and pedal-pumped harmonium. -- Opus88888 ( talk) 23:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
It's not just Latin America, Africa, East Asia, or Oceania. Given the prominence of North America in the lede, one would hope there's some substantive material about the harmonium in North America. If not, the second paragraph in the lede should probably be relegated to some other section. Sarabseth ( talk) 10:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I think that it's an important distinction to make between the two instrument versions and it could be made clearer while still kept within one page. The problem may be more semantic than encyclopedic, as there is no convenient semantic distinction now between the two variants. If one reads about any music for harmonium, it's left for their best judgment to figure out if it's Western or Indian (if the names are not very Indian, that is). For example, I had no idea who Shilpa Ray is and which kind of harmonium she plays until I saw that it's Indian, unlike the one played by most other Western artists listed.
I can also say that the small section I've started to add about acoustics refers just as well to American reed organs and the sound producing mechanisms appear to be identical for all those instruments.
P.S. I tried quite hard to find any reference or mention in English about Samvadini in scholarly literature (books and journals). But for the life of me, I couldn't find anything about it or about the names of the musicians referred to. Everything online about it looks recycled from one common source without a primary one ever cited. Unless some of the Hindi speaking contributors can come up with a reference in Hindi for it, I suggest to remove the Samvadini section. Robusticon ( talk) 04:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
portative organ, positive organ, pipe organ -- Opus88888 ( talk) 06:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
That's an amusing piece of hair-splitting, but the point is that we're talking about two very similar instruments with the same name.-- Sarabseth ( talk) 10:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Opus, you should've at least posted a mention here when you created Harmonium (hand-pumped) back in July. There's a ton of repetition between that article and this one, so I'm not seeing the utility at this point. What do folks think? Trim this article to make it mostly about the non-Indian harmonium and make a link, or delete Harmonium (hand-pumped) as an unnecessary WP:Fork and move its content all back here? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 04:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The article is getting pretty heavy with lists of names; anyone object to splitting them off to their own article? Said article could then have sub-sections for foot-pump and hand-pump, and maybe a sub-sub-section for Westerners using hand-pump ( Allen Ginsberg, Shilpa Ray, etc). Objections? MatthewVanitas ( talk) 04:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)