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the harla are viewed as semitic people not cush so unless you can find a source disputing that they are cush than ill have to add that they were semites. by the way ulrich just lacks evidence connecting hararis with harla but its been mainstream that the harla themselves were semities, it could however be dismissed that they were not harari though based on their language. i can see the darod and ogadenis being connected to harla because they occupied most of that region. http://books.google.ca/books?id=8GDPIHADsNYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=harla+ethiopia&source=bl&ots=zDaGtjqiVz&sig=mbL9FoE5Vrwixm_iSYfBLtgZV5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nv1PUK_KKKL00gGxsYCAAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=harla%20ethiopia&f=false Baboon43 ( talk) 03:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
i have told you that they were thought to be cushitic but new RS has done research on their language and thus labeled them semitic. i adivse you to get recent sources that mention their cushitic language or it shouldnt be included..aethiopica is extremely old and even on the section of that source it said that more research is still needed Baboon43 ( talk) 17:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
"Ahmad b. Ibrahim was born around 1506 in the region of Funyan-Bira and was most probably ethnically affiliated to the Harala people" [6] Baboon43 ( talk) 17:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The Harla appear to have been present in Yubbe, a small town in the northern Sanaag region of Somalia. It has already been established that they had a presence in the area, but it's nevertheless especially interesting to narrow that down to specific settlements. The British explorer John Hanning Speke described having seen various tumuli there, and some of the descriptions he left sound a lot like the Harla graves. Of these, he reported that one contained "a hollow compartment propped up by beams of timber, at the bottom of which, buried in the ground, were several earthenware pots, some leaden coins, a ring of gold such as the Indian Mussulman women wear in their noses, and various other miscellaneous property." [1] Harla graves likewise typically contained pottery, coins and jewelry [8]. What's special about the location is that the northern Sanaag area (particularly around Maydh, which is not far from Yubbe) is regarded as an early center of dispersal of the Somali people. Middayexpress ( talk) 18:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
References
if any editor would like to make a separate harla kingdom or add this info in this article..here's the source.. [9] Baboon43 ( talk) 20:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
According to modern sources, the Harla people are actual a mix of Somalis and Harari people. [10] [11] [12] This would explain their association with Harar and other Somali cites. This would also explain why the Harla clan of the Somalis that has a unique dialect. AcidSnow ( talk) 13:42, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I have added Mahfuz (harla-harari) & Nur (harla-somali) based on this source [13]. Any questions or concerns please contact me on my talk page. Thanx. Kiziotherapy ( talk) 23:51, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I believe the harla were an ancient group that have partially survived in the form Harari. Its been shown they have a had a long war with the speakers of Ge'ez. These groups both have dilemmas currently facing them in the academic world. It has not been proven that the Geez tribe existed whereas it has been proven the Geez language existed. The opposite is true for the Harla, who have been proven to exist as a people by references like futuh al habasha but their language has not been clarified. In the Harari/Harla language Gey means country/town which is behind naming of the Gurage and Hargeisa. I suspect Zay in the Harla language to mean land near water or something of that effect. This is in my opinion the naming behind Zaila and the linguistically similar with the Harari, Zay people inhabiting an island. I believe Zar in the Harari language refers to river. I found a source that claims a tribe claims harla in zaila, it says the following ---Among the Zeila there exists one tribe, calling itself the Harla, that claims to be descended from the old people-- [14]--
Which begs the question of towns such as Harardhere, Hargeisa or Mogadishu have any thing to do with Harla people. Dish from mogadishu is land or ground in the Harari language. I have also read somewhere that Benadiri have a dialect similar to the Harari language, which could mean Harla may have corrupted their language at some point. If the Harla led the Adal sultanate then it would make sense of their vast influence. It may be similar to the mongolians influencing vast regions. Queen Arawelo is said to be harla according to this source. [15]. Arawelo may or may not be Gudit who had devastated axum, if she is however this war between east and west would go back a millennium Kiziotherapy ( talk) 10:45, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
There is no concrete evidence that they spoke either a Semitic or Cushitic language. In this very page there is an author mentioned ( Enrico Cerulli, a well respected and now deceased scholar of Ethiopian and Somali studies) who found some indicators that their language was related to Somali, for example. But, others such as Ulrich Braukamper will posit that they may have spoken a Semitic language or simply assert that they did but, as Braukamper admits himself ( read his book if you wish), he has no real proof for this claim. The thing is... The only known historical sources on Harla, to my knowledge, are the Futuh al-Habasha (commissioned by Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim during the 16th century CE) and perhaps also some Late Medieval Abyssinian sources. None of these sources illuminate very much about this group. I.e. the Futuh mainly just establishes that they fought in the army of the Adal like various Somali clans (Habar Magadle, Harti et al.) and alludes to nothing about their language, last I checked.
Most authors who've written on this subject thus mostly base their claims on their own conjecture, perhaps a few oral traditions (such as Hararis claiming the ruined structures around the Hararghe area were built by the Harla) and that's all well and good but one needs to understand that the sources on this subject contradict each other (Semitic or Cushitic or what have you) and we will never concretely know what language branch they spoke within unless we find archaeological evidence like inscriptions in the Harla language itself (referred to as being written in a language named as such by the authors) using the Ge'ez or Arabic scripts or what have you or if we find new historical records from over 300 years ago from Arabs, Abyssinians or frankly anyone illuminating something on their origins. Anything other than this is a modern author simply writing down their own opinions on the matter and they can and are contradicted by sometimes earlier or contemporary authors. Nothing is decided here and until new evidence (like what I mentioned prior) surfaces; anyone who tells you this issue is settled doesn't know what they're talking about or, in my humble opinion, has an agenda. I once told Kiziotherapy that I personally think they spoke a Semitic language but that's my opinion not what the historical evidence shows clearly. Wikipedia is not for posting what one believes but trying to neutrally share facts or the closest one can find of the facts. Thank you, Awale-Abdi ( talk) 03:26, 6 July 2016
Okay, man... You might think I have something against you because I keep doing away some of your edits but please understand that this is not about you but about the claims you post. Arawelo isn't real and the folkloric story originally just says she's a Somali woman who rose up and so on so forth. But again, this is irrelevant. Read her page's sources (their titles):
Hanghe, Folktales of Somalia (Uppsala, Sweden: Somali Academy of Science and Arts 1988) Mohamed Hassan. Sheekooyinkii Boqoradii Araweelo Shafi Said, The Legendary Cruelty Affi, Ladan, Arraweelo: A role Model for Somali Women
Three of those are about folktales (the first three). She's a folkloric/mythological figure only found among Somalis. Posting that she was a "Harla" makes it sound like she was a real person with ties to certain people, she's not and she didn't (other than being tied to whoever might have made her up). And Jaberti/the Darod clan founder is thought to have been an Arabian based on his genealogy via two different sources, this is common wisdom. Any claims that he was a "Harla" are new (very modern) and baseless (same goes for the Arawelo claims). And there's nothing in the historical record about Nur ibn Mujahid being a Harla but if it'll appease you; add him back but not the other two. Sorry but adding them makes zero sense. Awale-Abdi ( talk) 05:47, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 10:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Harla people → Harala people – The term Harla brings confusion with the town of "Harlaa" which existed at a similar time, and similar region (see this archeological find for instance called Harlaa). Harala on the other hand in sources typically solely refers to the topic defined in this article. 92.10.227.228 ( talk) 09:40, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
In the coming days/weeks i would like to create more improved sections and add more sources and updates on the Harla people. If there is anything else people disagree with or would like to add. They can respond back to this Talk section. Ragnimo ( talk) 10:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
User:TriSolar, if you click on the map you'll see the source, stating Harla were fictional goes against academic consensus they're mentioned as an ethnic group. The reference is "An introduction to Ethiopian history from the Megalithism Age to the Republic, circa 13000 B.C. to 2000 A.D" [17]. Magherbin ( talk) 03:08, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Magherbin Can you prove the "Harla people" lived in Zeila ? Yubudirsi ( talk) 08:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the
Horn of Africa (defined as including Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and adjoining areas if involved in related disputes), which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
the harla are viewed as semitic people not cush so unless you can find a source disputing that they are cush than ill have to add that they were semites. by the way ulrich just lacks evidence connecting hararis with harla but its been mainstream that the harla themselves were semities, it could however be dismissed that they were not harari though based on their language. i can see the darod and ogadenis being connected to harla because they occupied most of that region. http://books.google.ca/books?id=8GDPIHADsNYC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=harla+ethiopia&source=bl&ots=zDaGtjqiVz&sig=mbL9FoE5Vrwixm_iSYfBLtgZV5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nv1PUK_KKKL00gGxsYCAAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=harla%20ethiopia&f=false Baboon43 ( talk) 03:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
i have told you that they were thought to be cushitic but new RS has done research on their language and thus labeled them semitic. i adivse you to get recent sources that mention their cushitic language or it shouldnt be included..aethiopica is extremely old and even on the section of that source it said that more research is still needed Baboon43 ( talk) 17:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
"Ahmad b. Ibrahim was born around 1506 in the region of Funyan-Bira and was most probably ethnically affiliated to the Harala people" [6] Baboon43 ( talk) 17:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The Harla appear to have been present in Yubbe, a small town in the northern Sanaag region of Somalia. It has already been established that they had a presence in the area, but it's nevertheless especially interesting to narrow that down to specific settlements. The British explorer John Hanning Speke described having seen various tumuli there, and some of the descriptions he left sound a lot like the Harla graves. Of these, he reported that one contained "a hollow compartment propped up by beams of timber, at the bottom of which, buried in the ground, were several earthenware pots, some leaden coins, a ring of gold such as the Indian Mussulman women wear in their noses, and various other miscellaneous property." [1] Harla graves likewise typically contained pottery, coins and jewelry [8]. What's special about the location is that the northern Sanaag area (particularly around Maydh, which is not far from Yubbe) is regarded as an early center of dispersal of the Somali people. Middayexpress ( talk) 18:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
References
if any editor would like to make a separate harla kingdom or add this info in this article..here's the source.. [9] Baboon43 ( talk) 20:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
According to modern sources, the Harla people are actual a mix of Somalis and Harari people. [10] [11] [12] This would explain their association with Harar and other Somali cites. This would also explain why the Harla clan of the Somalis that has a unique dialect. AcidSnow ( talk) 13:42, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I have added Mahfuz (harla-harari) & Nur (harla-somali) based on this source [13]. Any questions or concerns please contact me on my talk page. Thanx. Kiziotherapy ( talk) 23:51, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I believe the harla were an ancient group that have partially survived in the form Harari. Its been shown they have a had a long war with the speakers of Ge'ez. These groups both have dilemmas currently facing them in the academic world. It has not been proven that the Geez tribe existed whereas it has been proven the Geez language existed. The opposite is true for the Harla, who have been proven to exist as a people by references like futuh al habasha but their language has not been clarified. In the Harari/Harla language Gey means country/town which is behind naming of the Gurage and Hargeisa. I suspect Zay in the Harla language to mean land near water or something of that effect. This is in my opinion the naming behind Zaila and the linguistically similar with the Harari, Zay people inhabiting an island. I believe Zar in the Harari language refers to river. I found a source that claims a tribe claims harla in zaila, it says the following ---Among the Zeila there exists one tribe, calling itself the Harla, that claims to be descended from the old people-- [14]--
Which begs the question of towns such as Harardhere, Hargeisa or Mogadishu have any thing to do with Harla people. Dish from mogadishu is land or ground in the Harari language. I have also read somewhere that Benadiri have a dialect similar to the Harari language, which could mean Harla may have corrupted their language at some point. If the Harla led the Adal sultanate then it would make sense of their vast influence. It may be similar to the mongolians influencing vast regions. Queen Arawelo is said to be harla according to this source. [15]. Arawelo may or may not be Gudit who had devastated axum, if she is however this war between east and west would go back a millennium Kiziotherapy ( talk) 10:45, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
There is no concrete evidence that they spoke either a Semitic or Cushitic language. In this very page there is an author mentioned ( Enrico Cerulli, a well respected and now deceased scholar of Ethiopian and Somali studies) who found some indicators that their language was related to Somali, for example. But, others such as Ulrich Braukamper will posit that they may have spoken a Semitic language or simply assert that they did but, as Braukamper admits himself ( read his book if you wish), he has no real proof for this claim. The thing is... The only known historical sources on Harla, to my knowledge, are the Futuh al-Habasha (commissioned by Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim during the 16th century CE) and perhaps also some Late Medieval Abyssinian sources. None of these sources illuminate very much about this group. I.e. the Futuh mainly just establishes that they fought in the army of the Adal like various Somali clans (Habar Magadle, Harti et al.) and alludes to nothing about their language, last I checked.
Most authors who've written on this subject thus mostly base their claims on their own conjecture, perhaps a few oral traditions (such as Hararis claiming the ruined structures around the Hararghe area were built by the Harla) and that's all well and good but one needs to understand that the sources on this subject contradict each other (Semitic or Cushitic or what have you) and we will never concretely know what language branch they spoke within unless we find archaeological evidence like inscriptions in the Harla language itself (referred to as being written in a language named as such by the authors) using the Ge'ez or Arabic scripts or what have you or if we find new historical records from over 300 years ago from Arabs, Abyssinians or frankly anyone illuminating something on their origins. Anything other than this is a modern author simply writing down their own opinions on the matter and they can and are contradicted by sometimes earlier or contemporary authors. Nothing is decided here and until new evidence (like what I mentioned prior) surfaces; anyone who tells you this issue is settled doesn't know what they're talking about or, in my humble opinion, has an agenda. I once told Kiziotherapy that I personally think they spoke a Semitic language but that's my opinion not what the historical evidence shows clearly. Wikipedia is not for posting what one believes but trying to neutrally share facts or the closest one can find of the facts. Thank you, Awale-Abdi ( talk) 03:26, 6 July 2016
Okay, man... You might think I have something against you because I keep doing away some of your edits but please understand that this is not about you but about the claims you post. Arawelo isn't real and the folkloric story originally just says she's a Somali woman who rose up and so on so forth. But again, this is irrelevant. Read her page's sources (their titles):
Hanghe, Folktales of Somalia (Uppsala, Sweden: Somali Academy of Science and Arts 1988) Mohamed Hassan. Sheekooyinkii Boqoradii Araweelo Shafi Said, The Legendary Cruelty Affi, Ladan, Arraweelo: A role Model for Somali Women
Three of those are about folktales (the first three). She's a folkloric/mythological figure only found among Somalis. Posting that she was a "Harla" makes it sound like she was a real person with ties to certain people, she's not and she didn't (other than being tied to whoever might have made her up). And Jaberti/the Darod clan founder is thought to have been an Arabian based on his genealogy via two different sources, this is common wisdom. Any claims that he was a "Harla" are new (very modern) and baseless (same goes for the Arawelo claims). And there's nothing in the historical record about Nur ibn Mujahid being a Harla but if it'll appease you; add him back but not the other two. Sorry but adding them makes zero sense. Awale-Abdi ( talk) 05:47, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 10:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Harla people → Harala people – The term Harla brings confusion with the town of "Harlaa" which existed at a similar time, and similar region (see this archeological find for instance called Harlaa). Harala on the other hand in sources typically solely refers to the topic defined in this article. 92.10.227.228 ( talk) 09:40, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
In the coming days/weeks i would like to create more improved sections and add more sources and updates on the Harla people. If there is anything else people disagree with or would like to add. They can respond back to this Talk section. Ragnimo ( talk) 10:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
User:TriSolar, if you click on the map you'll see the source, stating Harla were fictional goes against academic consensus they're mentioned as an ethnic group. The reference is "An introduction to Ethiopian history from the Megalithism Age to the Republic, circa 13000 B.C. to 2000 A.D" [17]. Magherbin ( talk) 03:08, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Magherbin Can you prove the "Harla people" lived in Zeila ? Yubudirsi ( talk) 08:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)