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I found a secondary source article by Nikki Keddie published in the Journal of World History here are some quotes that may help our discussion:
Other verses, however, indicate that after Muhammad had taken several wives and had some problems with men talking to these wives, there was a revelation saying that men should talk to the Prophet's wives only from behind a curtain and that his wives should be limited in other ways as well. The Prophet's wives apparently came to be subject to types of veiling and seclusion that resembled those later followed by the urban upper and middle classes. It would be simplistic to say, however, that later veiling was simply an emulation of the practices of the Prophet's wives. In her book on Muhammad's favorite wife, A'isha, Nabia Abbott notes that this turn toward veiling the wives was itself a reflection of greater prosperity among the Muslim ruling group, which enabled them to hire servants and to keep women from duties outside the home, and also of the Muslims' greater contact with surrounding societies where women were veiled.
The divergences went mostly in the direction of reviving and reinforcing patriarchal tribal practices, as in rules of inheritance, or else in adopting customs from the Byzantines and Persians, such as veiling and seclusion, and reading those customs back into the Qur'an.
Seraphimsystem ( talk) 12:23, 3 April 2017 (UTC)12:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Seraphimsystem Please stop attempting major reorganizations of this content without prior discussion, especially when you refuse to review the sources I've shared with you. Your new version arbitrarily deviated from what the sources said in detail, and introduced confusion not only of different epochs (Chatterjee is talking about the Delhi Sultanate; you're off by three centuries with the Mughals) but even different millenia and continents (Moscovite Russia is ancient near east??) Please discuss your proposed changes in this section incrementally. Also please don't make unsourced changes saying you will source them later. This isn't your personal sandbox.
I see you have no intention of letting me enjoy my trip without worrying about you trying to ram through major changes, but we will proceed with this discussion at a deliberate pace. I'm open to reasonable reorganization proposals, but they have to be carefully coordinated with what the sources actually say. As for Ahmed, she makes that statement on p. 27 about "women in Muslim societies". If you have the book, you can see that yourself. If you don't, I'll provide a full quote in a few days when I'm back home. Eperoton ( talk) 13:22, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Any objections to switching to sfn format - we have started having some problems with page numbers and duplicate citations for Leila Ahmed so this may be a good time to switch. Sandbox remarks not withstanding, I can't really continue editing until we reach agreement about citations. Seraphimsystem ( talk) 15:43, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
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My Bookkeeper's Grand-Father had many wives, as was common before Mao. She has countless cousins. She describes how the back part of the house and the back garden were the women's and infants' area, totally unseen by anyone outside the family. No wonder there are only references to the Imperial Court. The extent of polygamy in China seems to be largely unknown outside China, and never mentioned along with other non-Western customs.
while I am writing about Women's Quarters, that also still exists in Orthodox Jewish homes, especially where there are extended families in connected houses etc, something also unseen by outsiders and not documented, I must correct the idea that a Harem, or Women's Quarters, is principally one of sex and seduction, but the truth would be that most of the women would be breast-feeding or pregnant and not available for reproductive sex.
In Brahmin families in Kumaon, the low attic under the roof was women's quarters with extended families ruled by the Mother-in-Law, but it is something I observed and is not documented anywhere. Relying on published, peer-reviewed references is very limiting. NaumTered ( talk) 06:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
PS. I guess my fault is not having published what I know, so I could anonymously quote myself. NaumTered ( talk) 06:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
“The lustful Turk” may well be a 19th century novel that epitomized orientalism. If it was published in 1828 is wasn’t Victorian. E A ( talk) 22:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There are many references to uncited sources. Most may be ancient but several are modern. This one may be a combination of both: "(Ctesias, frg. 16 (56) in Jacoby, Fragmente III/C, p. 471)". User-duck ( talk) 16:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I found a secondary source article by Nikki Keddie published in the Journal of World History here are some quotes that may help our discussion:
Other verses, however, indicate that after Muhammad had taken several wives and had some problems with men talking to these wives, there was a revelation saying that men should talk to the Prophet's wives only from behind a curtain and that his wives should be limited in other ways as well. The Prophet's wives apparently came to be subject to types of veiling and seclusion that resembled those later followed by the urban upper and middle classes. It would be simplistic to say, however, that later veiling was simply an emulation of the practices of the Prophet's wives. In her book on Muhammad's favorite wife, A'isha, Nabia Abbott notes that this turn toward veiling the wives was itself a reflection of greater prosperity among the Muslim ruling group, which enabled them to hire servants and to keep women from duties outside the home, and also of the Muslims' greater contact with surrounding societies where women were veiled.
The divergences went mostly in the direction of reviving and reinforcing patriarchal tribal practices, as in rules of inheritance, or else in adopting customs from the Byzantines and Persians, such as veiling and seclusion, and reading those customs back into the Qur'an.
Seraphimsystem ( talk) 12:23, 3 April 2017 (UTC)12:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Seraphimsystem Please stop attempting major reorganizations of this content without prior discussion, especially when you refuse to review the sources I've shared with you. Your new version arbitrarily deviated from what the sources said in detail, and introduced confusion not only of different epochs (Chatterjee is talking about the Delhi Sultanate; you're off by three centuries with the Mughals) but even different millenia and continents (Moscovite Russia is ancient near east??) Please discuss your proposed changes in this section incrementally. Also please don't make unsourced changes saying you will source them later. This isn't your personal sandbox.
I see you have no intention of letting me enjoy my trip without worrying about you trying to ram through major changes, but we will proceed with this discussion at a deliberate pace. I'm open to reasonable reorganization proposals, but they have to be carefully coordinated with what the sources actually say. As for Ahmed, she makes that statement on p. 27 about "women in Muslim societies". If you have the book, you can see that yourself. If you don't, I'll provide a full quote in a few days when I'm back home. Eperoton ( talk) 13:22, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Any objections to switching to sfn format - we have started having some problems with page numbers and duplicate citations for Leila Ahmed so this may be a good time to switch. Sandbox remarks not withstanding, I can't really continue editing until we reach agreement about citations. Seraphimsystem ( talk) 15:43, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Harem. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:14, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
My Bookkeeper's Grand-Father had many wives, as was common before Mao. She has countless cousins. She describes how the back part of the house and the back garden were the women's and infants' area, totally unseen by anyone outside the family. No wonder there are only references to the Imperial Court. The extent of polygamy in China seems to be largely unknown outside China, and never mentioned along with other non-Western customs.
while I am writing about Women's Quarters, that also still exists in Orthodox Jewish homes, especially where there are extended families in connected houses etc, something also unseen by outsiders and not documented, I must correct the idea that a Harem, or Women's Quarters, is principally one of sex and seduction, but the truth would be that most of the women would be breast-feeding or pregnant and not available for reproductive sex.
In Brahmin families in Kumaon, the low attic under the roof was women's quarters with extended families ruled by the Mother-in-Law, but it is something I observed and is not documented anywhere. Relying on published, peer-reviewed references is very limiting. NaumTered ( talk) 06:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
PS. I guess my fault is not having published what I know, so I could anonymously quote myself. NaumTered ( talk) 06:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
“The lustful Turk” may well be a 19th century novel that epitomized orientalism. If it was published in 1828 is wasn’t Victorian. E A ( talk) 22:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There are many references to uncited sources. Most may be ancient but several are modern. This one may be a combination of both: "(Ctesias, frg. 16 (56) in Jacoby, Fragmente III/C, p. 471)". User-duck ( talk) 16:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)