The "see also" and "categories" are nor displaying even though they appear when one wants to edit the page.-- Jayrav 04:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I fixed it but lost footnote format.-- Jayrav 04:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Right now, the entire article is unsourced and completely qualifies as OR. However, I am afraid that this is the only way to start this article. I feel quite certain that every religious person who is slightly familiar with the Hardal world will agree with all that I wrote. Now, the section on Leadership needs to be expanded. Does Rav Yisrael Meir Lau belong to the Hardal leadership? I think so, and actually I think most of Israel's current and past Chief Rabbis belong to it, with the notable exception of Rav Ovadia Yosef (who holds against reciting the tefilah for the medinah). -- Daniel575 | (talk) 19:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The Hebrew Wiki has sources, but in Hebrew. -- Jayrav 05:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
are you sure about it ? I'm really not sure and I think it belongs in the Haredim and Zionism article. I don't know if Hardal cares for this specific book. I'm pretty sure not since it was published in 1943 and Hardal as a term is VERY RECENT. Amoruso 22:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The lead sentence, which states that "Hardal refers to those Orthodox Jews who combine Religious Zionism with a stricter adherence to Halacha than that which is characteristic for average religious Zionist Jews, who classify themselves as modern Orthodox." has some major POV issues in characterizing those who are modern Orthodox as less strict in their adherence to Halacha than those in the Hardal world. Who is the "average religious Zionist Jew", what practices does he observe (or not observe) that make him less strict in his observance, and what evidence is provided to support this thesis? While there are obvious differences in the ways in which Halacha is observed in the Haredi and Modern Orthodox worlds, each group believes that they are scrupulously observing Halacha as they define it. As such, any claim that one exhibits "stricter adherence" is an unsupported POV statement and must be changed. The lead of the Haredi Judaism article which states that it is the "most theologically conservative" branch of Orthodoxy has its own problems, but avoids the explicit judgment that this article makes. Alansohn 00:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Alansohn, you can change the lead into something better if you wish.... I agree there's a problem with the strict issue, but it's hard to write this article. The article was started after a big problem arose in Haredim and Zionism article by Daniel and like he said it was pretty much WP:OR. I thought he did a decent job I have faith in Daniel's good faith but the article can be improved. Amoruso 10:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I will try to fix it based on the Hebrew Wiki. Be patient - this may take a few tries.-- Jayrav 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Haredi Judaism is defined in its lead sentence as "the most theologically conservative form of Orthodox Judaism." Haredim and Zionism defines the pro-Zionist group as "a category of Orthodox Jews known as ' Hardalim', who combine Religious Zionism with a stricter adherence to Halacha." Both of these definitions better avoid the POV issues that the current Hardal lead creates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alansohn ( talk • contribs) .
I cannot agree to that. You claim that comparing them to the low level of observance of MO-RZ is POV, but then you claim that comparing them to the high level of observance of Haredim is ok? I don't understand that line of thinking. I have a better version: -- Daniel575 | (talk) 15:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Can both of you look at the Hebrew Wiki article as a base line? http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D
And look at the article by Shlomo fisher? -- Jayrav 15:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
we should also put back the line that they like to be called "Emmunai" both wiki and the Fisher article (as well as people i know :)) make that point.-- Jayrav 16:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Quick question: I remember a few years back hearing about Chardal folks and I was told that it stood for Charedi Dati Le'umi. Is it Charedi Le'umi or Ch,Dati,Leumi? Yossiea 18:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The POV in it seems to be minor, I would consider sourcing to be more of an issue. If anyone can sources any of it (such as the differences approach to tzinut) we should include it. JoshuaZ 06:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a similar section in the Hebrew wiki- see link above. Yes, it should stay as a defining characteristic, but it needs to be edited for accuracy. The important reason that it should stay is because of the defining characteristics of Hardal is the following of one of the handbooks on how to dress, how to raise kids, and public modesty. These books are written by Rav Aviner and now by his students and fill two shelves in any Hardal bookstore. Some are actually in checklist form. Either- we follow the list in the Hebrew wiki, or someone who own one of the books to give a footnoted summary.-- Jayrav 18:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
It should also be divided into two lists- how they reject the ordinary religious zionist- no TV, no short sleeves, no public mixing of the sexes-They should be easy to find documentation. The second list is how they are still an outgrowth of Merkaz and not part of the Haredi world For this- we can use the translated writings of Rav Zvi Yehudah Kook - army as a great mizvah, rejection of the diaspora, -- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)hiking in the land and knowledge of its flora and fauna as a mizvah.-- Jayrav 18:3-- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)5, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Finally, we should take out the confusing America word "modern orthodox" - the position more open than Hardal is called "Dati Le'umi" or religious Zionist.-- Jayrav 18:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I started the clean-up. I hope to find some documentation within the week. Consider it a construction site for now.-- Jayrav 19:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Meshulam and Chussid can the two of you stop fighting for opposite extremes and work towards a rational method of verification? Can we work together for a week and at the end of the week, we leave in the differences that can be verified and are ideologically substantive? -- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
All of the comparison sections (which were originally proposed by the banned user Daniel575, and then reproposed by the banned user Daniel575's sockpuppet Chussid, and which were originally rejected by a consensus) are unsourced. Referring to a book where one Rabbi, allegedly Hardal, writes about what should be the practice is not a source for what actually happens in Hardal. For those statements that do not even cite to a source (even a bad source) a source is doubly needed. I propose deleting the entire section, as we originally agreed to. I think that would be best especially in light of the fact that the sections only major proponent has now been banned (again). Jayrav gave himself a week to fix this page almost two weeks ago. To date, he has failed and I doubt he'll eventually succeed. -- Meshulam 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I took out the reference to mustard. It's true but irelevant info. Yossiea (talk) 15:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Chardal. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:22, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Chardal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this page was moved back to Hardal without a discussion by @ Precision123: especially since his edit summary says you shouldn't move pages without a discussion. Further it's quite clear that the usage of Chardal is more appropriate than Hardal. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:46, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
A few reasons to note:
1. I did not change the original name of the article. Rather, I only moved it back to the original spelling of the article. The article was first moved without any discussion in talk.
2. Hardal is the preferred spelling in Haaretz, Yedioth Ahronoth/ Ynet, The New York Times, historian Benny Morris, and other prominent sources.
3. The letter heth is most often transliterated as h rather than ch, though exceptions exist for transliterations from Ashkenazi Hebrew, Yiddish, and for other reasons. I retained the alternate spelling (Chardal) in the lede in any case.
I will expand on each of these soon if necessary, but I wanted to give a brief explanation for the time being. Regards, -- Precision123 ( talk) 20:19, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Concerning http://e.yeshiva.org.il/ask/printAsk.aspx/1914 .. the following extensive inline comment has been moved into the talk page diff:
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The "see also" and "categories" are nor displaying even though they appear when one wants to edit the page.-- Jayrav 04:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I fixed it but lost footnote format.-- Jayrav 04:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Right now, the entire article is unsourced and completely qualifies as OR. However, I am afraid that this is the only way to start this article. I feel quite certain that every religious person who is slightly familiar with the Hardal world will agree with all that I wrote. Now, the section on Leadership needs to be expanded. Does Rav Yisrael Meir Lau belong to the Hardal leadership? I think so, and actually I think most of Israel's current and past Chief Rabbis belong to it, with the notable exception of Rav Ovadia Yosef (who holds against reciting the tefilah for the medinah). -- Daniel575 | (talk) 19:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The Hebrew Wiki has sources, but in Hebrew. -- Jayrav 05:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
are you sure about it ? I'm really not sure and I think it belongs in the Haredim and Zionism article. I don't know if Hardal cares for this specific book. I'm pretty sure not since it was published in 1943 and Hardal as a term is VERY RECENT. Amoruso 22:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The lead sentence, which states that "Hardal refers to those Orthodox Jews who combine Religious Zionism with a stricter adherence to Halacha than that which is characteristic for average religious Zionist Jews, who classify themselves as modern Orthodox." has some major POV issues in characterizing those who are modern Orthodox as less strict in their adherence to Halacha than those in the Hardal world. Who is the "average religious Zionist Jew", what practices does he observe (or not observe) that make him less strict in his observance, and what evidence is provided to support this thesis? While there are obvious differences in the ways in which Halacha is observed in the Haredi and Modern Orthodox worlds, each group believes that they are scrupulously observing Halacha as they define it. As such, any claim that one exhibits "stricter adherence" is an unsupported POV statement and must be changed. The lead of the Haredi Judaism article which states that it is the "most theologically conservative" branch of Orthodoxy has its own problems, but avoids the explicit judgment that this article makes. Alansohn 00:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Alansohn, you can change the lead into something better if you wish.... I agree there's a problem with the strict issue, but it's hard to write this article. The article was started after a big problem arose in Haredim and Zionism article by Daniel and like he said it was pretty much WP:OR. I thought he did a decent job I have faith in Daniel's good faith but the article can be improved. Amoruso 10:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I will try to fix it based on the Hebrew Wiki. Be patient - this may take a few tries.-- Jayrav 14:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Haredi Judaism is defined in its lead sentence as "the most theologically conservative form of Orthodox Judaism." Haredim and Zionism defines the pro-Zionist group as "a category of Orthodox Jews known as ' Hardalim', who combine Religious Zionism with a stricter adherence to Halacha." Both of these definitions better avoid the POV issues that the current Hardal lead creates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alansohn ( talk • contribs) .
I cannot agree to that. You claim that comparing them to the low level of observance of MO-RZ is POV, but then you claim that comparing them to the high level of observance of Haredim is ok? I don't understand that line of thinking. I have a better version: -- Daniel575 | (talk) 15:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Can both of you look at the Hebrew Wiki article as a base line? http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D
And look at the article by Shlomo fisher? -- Jayrav 15:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
we should also put back the line that they like to be called "Emmunai" both wiki and the Fisher article (as well as people i know :)) make that point.-- Jayrav 16:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Quick question: I remember a few years back hearing about Chardal folks and I was told that it stood for Charedi Dati Le'umi. Is it Charedi Le'umi or Ch,Dati,Leumi? Yossiea 18:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The POV in it seems to be minor, I would consider sourcing to be more of an issue. If anyone can sources any of it (such as the differences approach to tzinut) we should include it. JoshuaZ 06:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a similar section in the Hebrew wiki- see link above. Yes, it should stay as a defining characteristic, but it needs to be edited for accuracy. The important reason that it should stay is because of the defining characteristics of Hardal is the following of one of the handbooks on how to dress, how to raise kids, and public modesty. These books are written by Rav Aviner and now by his students and fill two shelves in any Hardal bookstore. Some are actually in checklist form. Either- we follow the list in the Hebrew wiki, or someone who own one of the books to give a footnoted summary.-- Jayrav 18:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
It should also be divided into two lists- how they reject the ordinary religious zionist- no TV, no short sleeves, no public mixing of the sexes-They should be easy to find documentation. The second list is how they are still an outgrowth of Merkaz and not part of the Haredi world For this- we can use the translated writings of Rav Zvi Yehudah Kook - army as a great mizvah, rejection of the diaspora, -- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)hiking in the land and knowledge of its flora and fauna as a mizvah.-- Jayrav 18:3-- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)5, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Finally, we should take out the confusing America word "modern orthodox" - the position more open than Hardal is called "Dati Le'umi" or religious Zionist.-- Jayrav 18:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I started the clean-up. I hope to find some documentation within the week. Consider it a construction site for now.-- Jayrav 19:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Meshulam and Chussid can the two of you stop fighting for opposite extremes and work towards a rational method of verification? Can we work together for a week and at the end of the week, we leave in the differences that can be verified and are ideologically substantive? -- Jayrav 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
All of the comparison sections (which were originally proposed by the banned user Daniel575, and then reproposed by the banned user Daniel575's sockpuppet Chussid, and which were originally rejected by a consensus) are unsourced. Referring to a book where one Rabbi, allegedly Hardal, writes about what should be the practice is not a source for what actually happens in Hardal. For those statements that do not even cite to a source (even a bad source) a source is doubly needed. I propose deleting the entire section, as we originally agreed to. I think that would be best especially in light of the fact that the sections only major proponent has now been banned (again). Jayrav gave himself a week to fix this page almost two weeks ago. To date, he has failed and I doubt he'll eventually succeed. -- Meshulam 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I took out the reference to mustard. It's true but irelevant info. Yossiea (talk) 15:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Chardal. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:22, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Chardal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure why this page was moved back to Hardal without a discussion by @ Precision123: especially since his edit summary says you shouldn't move pages without a discussion. Further it's quite clear that the usage of Chardal is more appropriate than Hardal. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:46, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
A few reasons to note:
1. I did not change the original name of the article. Rather, I only moved it back to the original spelling of the article. The article was first moved without any discussion in talk.
2. Hardal is the preferred spelling in Haaretz, Yedioth Ahronoth/ Ynet, The New York Times, historian Benny Morris, and other prominent sources.
3. The letter heth is most often transliterated as h rather than ch, though exceptions exist for transliterations from Ashkenazi Hebrew, Yiddish, and for other reasons. I retained the alternate spelling (Chardal) in the lede in any case.
I will expand on each of these soon if necessary, but I wanted to give a brief explanation for the time being. Regards, -- Precision123 ( talk) 20:19, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Concerning http://e.yeshiva.org.il/ask/printAsk.aspx/1914 .. the following extensive inline comment has been moved into the talk page diff: