This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Either a hand is not 4 inches or 15 hands is not 30 inches (a shetland pony?!) I think all the thirty-something numbers should be 60 somethings, but I'm not expert enough to declare it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.219.231.10 ( talk) 16:27, 28 December 2004 (UTC)
Who else thought this article was a joke when they first saw it? :P Bwhack 07:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The diagram is wrong. A 'hand' is measured across the knuckles with the fingers closed. Didact1947 20:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The diagram was wrong! So I have replaced it with a (hopefully) more accurate one. Please leave comments if you have strong feelings about this change (approval or disapproval). Unitfreak 10 September 2007.
Hi there Montanabw,
Nice work keeping this article tidy, but keep in mind that the "hand" unit is not at all specific to horses. Therefore, common methods and traditions that relate to horse measurement are immaterial to the definition of the hand unit. Millimetres are the common SI unit for measurement of length under 1 metre, not centimetres.
I was just reverted by Montana for changing the unit from mm to cm on account of this discussion (as far as I can tell). I certainly don't agree with Meme's comments above, though, because they don't attempt the issue. The millimetre isn't an SI-unit for one thing (the metre is). Whether millimetres or centimetres are the most common way of expressing measurements under a metre i have no idea, and I don't know whether it's actually worth verifying. What I do know is what I'm used to seeing as a metric user, and 101.6 mm looks very odd. Judging by a quick check of this article in other languages, centimetres appears to be used in every single one.
Montana mentioned in her edit comment something about "measurement gurus", so I might have missed something, but I still don't see any sign of millimetres being appropriate to convey t sense of scale of the modern hand.
Peter Isotalo 01:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, just read all this, didn't realise this article was another war-zone. What fun you two are having. I hope that I have at least provided a reference for the exact equivalence of the hand to 10.16 cm.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed from the article some stuff that is not directly relevant to it. While I don't think there is anything in it that is not already covered elsewhere, I'm pasting it here for reference.
A pony is generally defined as a horse less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) or, depending on organization, 14.2 hh or less. An animal 14.2 hh or taller is classified as a horse. However, breed characteristics also play a role in defining animals as horses or ponies, particularly in breeds that may have some purebred representatives on both sides of the 14.2 divide. In some nations, such as Australia, the cutoff is defined at 14.0 hands (56 inches, 142 cm)
In the United States, ponies in horse show competition, particularly for hunter/ jumper classes, are sometimes further subdivided into sections, depending on height:
- Small Pony: 12.2 hands (50 inches, 127 cm) or smaller
- Medium Pony: larger than 12.2 hh, up to 13.2 hands (54 inches, 137 cm)
- Large Pony: larger than 13.2 hh, but no taller than 14.2 hh
A miniature horse is either shorter than 9.2 or 8.2 hh, depending on the registry. Minis often are measured at the last hair of the mane, located approximately at the peak of the withers which are sometimes poorly-defined in minis. The world's smallest horse, Thumbelina, is just 4.1 hh.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
{
Well, if miniature horses are measured in inches, they don't really belong in this article at all ... I've left them in, though, for now at least, as some discussion of when hands are not used does seem relevant to the topic. I can't say the same for this bit:
A pony is generally defined as a horse less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) or, depending on organization, 14.2 hh or less. An animal 14.2 hh or taller is classified as a horse. However, breed characteristics also play a role in defining animals as horses or ponies, particularly in breeds that may have some purebred representatives on both sides of the 14.2 divide. In some nations, such as Australia, the cutoff is defined at 14.0 hands (56 inches, 142 cm)
which I've removed but am placing here in case there's anything that needs to go in the pony article. It has no relevance to the hand as a unit. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 17:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the source Shlei, "Just how tall is a hand?" from this article as below the minimum standard of reliability acceptable to Wikipedia (e.g., "...a kind went to measure his favorite horse. Not having a device to measuer with..."). That's not intended as criticism of other pages of the American Donkey and Mule Society.
The page states that "hh" stands for "hands high". Does that mean that "pp" stands for "pages of print", that "ff" stands for "following folios"? I think not; they are simple plural forms. Of course, if anyone comes across a reliable scholarly source for "hands high", it can go back in the article. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 16:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Any reliable source you can find will verify that hh means "hands high" It's not a plural, as ALL hands measurements are plural (never seen a horse one hand high, anyway). As with the above remark, you demonstrate that you know nothing of this topic, let's not be tenditious over something that will simply embarass you when I find the sources. Montanabw (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC) Follow up I restored the material and the shlie source, which I agree isn't a great source (though it is largely correct). I added a "dubious" tag for you , which allows your concerns to be discussed without removing needed material. Montanabw (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
BOTH ARE PLURAL: "h." by itself also means "hands" not the singular (and impossible in a horse) "hand", hh." does not mean just "hands", it means "hands high." I am not in any way making any argument about pp or ff or whatever, of course they have the meanings they have -- and they aren't relevant here. FWIW, you might also note that over at WPEQ, Owain (who is a Brit, I think) also just commented that "hh" means "hands high." You yourself just cited a source from 1975. Now, it is possible that there has been some linguistic drift in its use -- feel free to trace the etymology, but clearly this is a common modern form and used throughout the same horse world that uses "hands." I highly doubt anyone will find a scientific article in either direction. For what it's worth, I pulled old three books I have that were published in the 1960s, and none used EITHER abbreviation; they just said "hands" or simply said (for example) "14.2" without any suffix. As for the rest, JLAN "blithering twaddle" really is a bit ad hominem as well. So if we've now finished exchanging comments of that sort, I think it best we stop.
Montanabw
(talk)
06:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I doubt any non-horse style manual has ever addressed the question, over here we rely a lot upon the Chicago Manual of Style and similar guides, nothing I could find there specific to hands (but I don't have full online access, so who knows). But that's not the point -- you and I both already know that horse words have lots of deviations from standard grammar and style (my own pet peeve is people who call the fetlock an "ankle," which it anatomically is not). Measurement is just another example. If terms have been modified in defiance of standard grammatical conventions (which is not necessarily ignorance so much as convenience, probably), it's been that way for over 40 years and thus we are not going to put that chick back into the egg. And I must point out that terms like "blithering twaddle" do not help resolve the issues. Montanabw (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
In an attempt to stop childish warring over the spelling of metric units, and for no other reason, I placed a British English template on this talk page a few days ago, based on the establishment of that usage here. That template was removed by user Montanabw in this edit. Whether that is acceptable behaviour on this wiki I don't know. I'm not going to start yet another stupid game of ping-pong by replacing it, and am instead just asking here that people note the priority of European spelling in this particular article. Thank you, Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
As far as the history section, JLAN, you've added some good stuff and I'm fine if you want to add material on handsbreadth to bulk out the history section if it seems relevant. Montanabw (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
(hidden text found in the article) Well, so what? The article is not telling anyone what they have to call things, it's about the hand as a unit of measurement. Also please note: the US is not the world; miniature ponies are so called in several places. So, are the "US mini people" people like these: "Our Ponies" or these: "Miniature Horses and Miniature Shetland Ponies of pedigree"? Maybe not such a big deal after all; and maybe no "Edit war potential, best to avoid", as suggested in the edit summary. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
{{
3O}}
So, yet another boring, childish and completely trivial edit war between Montanabw and me, over the section Hand (unit)#Use in measuring horses. Rather than just replacing the text that is actually based on the sources cited, which would doubtless be reverted yet again, I'm requesting a third opinion on this one, see if that gets us anywhere. Here the two versions:
Today the hand is used for measurement of the height of horses, [1] ponies, and other equines. It is used in a number of different countries, including the USA and some that have formally adopted the metric system, such as Australia, Canada, Ireland and the UK. In most countries of the world, including continental Europe, and in all FEI-regulated international competition, horses are measured in metric units, usually metres or centimetres. In some countries, such as South Africa, measurements may be given in both hands and centimeters. [1] [...] In those countries where hands are the usual unit for horse height, smaller equines are frequently measured in inches rather than hands, such as miniature horses/ponies [2] mini-mules, [3], many donkeys, [4] and Shetland ponies. [5] Miniature horses in the USA are measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers. [2]
Today the hand is used only in measurement of the height of horses, [1] ponies, and other equines. It is used in a number of different countries, including the USA and some that have formally adopted the metric system, such as Australia, Canada, Ireland and the UK. In most countries of the world, including continental Europe, and in all FEI-regulated international competition, horses are measured in metric units, usually metres or centimetres. In some countries, such as South Africa, measurements may be given in both hands and centimetres. [1] [...] In those countries where hands are the usual unit for horse height, inches rather than hands are commonly used in the measurement of miniature horses, ponies [2] and mules, [3] of donkeys, [4] and of Shetland ponies. [5] Miniature horses, but not miniature ponies, may be measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers. [2]
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I'd be interested and grateful to know the views of others on the small differences between the two, and on which best reflects the information given in the sources. If anyone can explain to me how the Australian association can be cited as a reference for a bit of (dubious) information about the USA, or why it seems so important to one editor to assert that particular bit of dubious information, I'd be doubly grateful. Some of the discussion further up this page may be vaguely relevant to the matter too. I apologise for drawing attention what appears to me to be a storm in a tea-cup. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Last set of edits was trying to improve flow and readabiliy, hence I rearranged some of the sentences, moved things into different paragraphs. Other than tossing some adjectives I don't think were needed and altering a word of two (which I hope kept nuance of source), I had no intention of altering content. I think some of my non-philosophical objections were simply that the structure of that section had been bugging me. So take this in good faith. I popped in some hidden text, which was mostly for JLAN and OK w/me to toss it when read without need for comment, or if it really warrants a discussion, move it over here. Montanabw (talk) 04:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Either a hand is not 4 inches or 15 hands is not 30 inches (a shetland pony?!) I think all the thirty-something numbers should be 60 somethings, but I'm not expert enough to declare it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.219.231.10 ( talk) 16:27, 28 December 2004 (UTC)
Who else thought this article was a joke when they first saw it? :P Bwhack 07:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The diagram is wrong. A 'hand' is measured across the knuckles with the fingers closed. Didact1947 20:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The diagram was wrong! So I have replaced it with a (hopefully) more accurate one. Please leave comments if you have strong feelings about this change (approval or disapproval). Unitfreak 10 September 2007.
Hi there Montanabw,
Nice work keeping this article tidy, but keep in mind that the "hand" unit is not at all specific to horses. Therefore, common methods and traditions that relate to horse measurement are immaterial to the definition of the hand unit. Millimetres are the common SI unit for measurement of length under 1 metre, not centimetres.
I was just reverted by Montana for changing the unit from mm to cm on account of this discussion (as far as I can tell). I certainly don't agree with Meme's comments above, though, because they don't attempt the issue. The millimetre isn't an SI-unit for one thing (the metre is). Whether millimetres or centimetres are the most common way of expressing measurements under a metre i have no idea, and I don't know whether it's actually worth verifying. What I do know is what I'm used to seeing as a metric user, and 101.6 mm looks very odd. Judging by a quick check of this article in other languages, centimetres appears to be used in every single one.
Montana mentioned in her edit comment something about "measurement gurus", so I might have missed something, but I still don't see any sign of millimetres being appropriate to convey t sense of scale of the modern hand.
Peter Isotalo 01:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, just read all this, didn't realise this article was another war-zone. What fun you two are having. I hope that I have at least provided a reference for the exact equivalence of the hand to 10.16 cm.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed from the article some stuff that is not directly relevant to it. While I don't think there is anything in it that is not already covered elsewhere, I'm pasting it here for reference.
A pony is generally defined as a horse less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) or, depending on organization, 14.2 hh or less. An animal 14.2 hh or taller is classified as a horse. However, breed characteristics also play a role in defining animals as horses or ponies, particularly in breeds that may have some purebred representatives on both sides of the 14.2 divide. In some nations, such as Australia, the cutoff is defined at 14.0 hands (56 inches, 142 cm)
In the United States, ponies in horse show competition, particularly for hunter/ jumper classes, are sometimes further subdivided into sections, depending on height:
- Small Pony: 12.2 hands (50 inches, 127 cm) or smaller
- Medium Pony: larger than 12.2 hh, up to 13.2 hands (54 inches, 137 cm)
- Large Pony: larger than 13.2 hh, but no taller than 14.2 hh
A miniature horse is either shorter than 9.2 or 8.2 hh, depending on the registry. Minis often are measured at the last hair of the mane, located approximately at the peak of the withers which are sometimes poorly-defined in minis. The world's smallest horse, Thumbelina, is just 4.1 hh.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
{
Well, if miniature horses are measured in inches, they don't really belong in this article at all ... I've left them in, though, for now at least, as some discussion of when hands are not used does seem relevant to the topic. I can't say the same for this bit:
A pony is generally defined as a horse less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) or, depending on organization, 14.2 hh or less. An animal 14.2 hh or taller is classified as a horse. However, breed characteristics also play a role in defining animals as horses or ponies, particularly in breeds that may have some purebred representatives on both sides of the 14.2 divide. In some nations, such as Australia, the cutoff is defined at 14.0 hands (56 inches, 142 cm)
which I've removed but am placing here in case there's anything that needs to go in the pony article. It has no relevance to the hand as a unit. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 17:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the source Shlei, "Just how tall is a hand?" from this article as below the minimum standard of reliability acceptable to Wikipedia (e.g., "...a kind went to measure his favorite horse. Not having a device to measuer with..."). That's not intended as criticism of other pages of the American Donkey and Mule Society.
The page states that "hh" stands for "hands high". Does that mean that "pp" stands for "pages of print", that "ff" stands for "following folios"? I think not; they are simple plural forms. Of course, if anyone comes across a reliable scholarly source for "hands high", it can go back in the article. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 16:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Any reliable source you can find will verify that hh means "hands high" It's not a plural, as ALL hands measurements are plural (never seen a horse one hand high, anyway). As with the above remark, you demonstrate that you know nothing of this topic, let's not be tenditious over something that will simply embarass you when I find the sources. Montanabw (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC) Follow up I restored the material and the shlie source, which I agree isn't a great source (though it is largely correct). I added a "dubious" tag for you , which allows your concerns to be discussed without removing needed material. Montanabw (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
BOTH ARE PLURAL: "h." by itself also means "hands" not the singular (and impossible in a horse) "hand", hh." does not mean just "hands", it means "hands high." I am not in any way making any argument about pp or ff or whatever, of course they have the meanings they have -- and they aren't relevant here. FWIW, you might also note that over at WPEQ, Owain (who is a Brit, I think) also just commented that "hh" means "hands high." You yourself just cited a source from 1975. Now, it is possible that there has been some linguistic drift in its use -- feel free to trace the etymology, but clearly this is a common modern form and used throughout the same horse world that uses "hands." I highly doubt anyone will find a scientific article in either direction. For what it's worth, I pulled old three books I have that were published in the 1960s, and none used EITHER abbreviation; they just said "hands" or simply said (for example) "14.2" without any suffix. As for the rest, JLAN "blithering twaddle" really is a bit ad hominem as well. So if we've now finished exchanging comments of that sort, I think it best we stop.
Montanabw
(talk)
06:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I doubt any non-horse style manual has ever addressed the question, over here we rely a lot upon the Chicago Manual of Style and similar guides, nothing I could find there specific to hands (but I don't have full online access, so who knows). But that's not the point -- you and I both already know that horse words have lots of deviations from standard grammar and style (my own pet peeve is people who call the fetlock an "ankle," which it anatomically is not). Measurement is just another example. If terms have been modified in defiance of standard grammatical conventions (which is not necessarily ignorance so much as convenience, probably), it's been that way for over 40 years and thus we are not going to put that chick back into the egg. And I must point out that terms like "blithering twaddle" do not help resolve the issues. Montanabw (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
In an attempt to stop childish warring over the spelling of metric units, and for no other reason, I placed a British English template on this talk page a few days ago, based on the establishment of that usage here. That template was removed by user Montanabw in this edit. Whether that is acceptable behaviour on this wiki I don't know. I'm not going to start yet another stupid game of ping-pong by replacing it, and am instead just asking here that people note the priority of European spelling in this particular article. Thank you, Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
As far as the history section, JLAN, you've added some good stuff and I'm fine if you want to add material on handsbreadth to bulk out the history section if it seems relevant. Montanabw (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
(hidden text found in the article) Well, so what? The article is not telling anyone what they have to call things, it's about the hand as a unit of measurement. Also please note: the US is not the world; miniature ponies are so called in several places. So, are the "US mini people" people like these: "Our Ponies" or these: "Miniature Horses and Miniature Shetland Ponies of pedigree"? Maybe not such a big deal after all; and maybe no "Edit war potential, best to avoid", as suggested in the edit summary. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 10:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
{{
3O}}
So, yet another boring, childish and completely trivial edit war between Montanabw and me, over the section Hand (unit)#Use in measuring horses. Rather than just replacing the text that is actually based on the sources cited, which would doubtless be reverted yet again, I'm requesting a third opinion on this one, see if that gets us anywhere. Here the two versions:
Today the hand is used for measurement of the height of horses, [1] ponies, and other equines. It is used in a number of different countries, including the USA and some that have formally adopted the metric system, such as Australia, Canada, Ireland and the UK. In most countries of the world, including continental Europe, and in all FEI-regulated international competition, horses are measured in metric units, usually metres or centimetres. In some countries, such as South Africa, measurements may be given in both hands and centimeters. [1] [...] In those countries where hands are the usual unit for horse height, smaller equines are frequently measured in inches rather than hands, such as miniature horses/ponies [2] mini-mules, [3], many donkeys, [4] and Shetland ponies. [5] Miniature horses in the USA are measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers. [2]
Today the hand is used only in measurement of the height of horses, [1] ponies, and other equines. It is used in a number of different countries, including the USA and some that have formally adopted the metric system, such as Australia, Canada, Ireland and the UK. In most countries of the world, including continental Europe, and in all FEI-regulated international competition, horses are measured in metric units, usually metres or centimetres. In some countries, such as South Africa, measurements may be given in both hands and centimetres. [1] [...] In those countries where hands are the usual unit for horse height, inches rather than hands are commonly used in the measurement of miniature horses, ponies [2] and mules, [3] of donkeys, [4] and of Shetland ponies. [5] Miniature horses, but not miniature ponies, may be measured at the base of the last true hairs of the mane rather than at the withers. [2]
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help)
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help)
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I'd be interested and grateful to know the views of others on the small differences between the two, and on which best reflects the information given in the sources. If anyone can explain to me how the Australian association can be cited as a reference for a bit of (dubious) information about the USA, or why it seems so important to one editor to assert that particular bit of dubious information, I'd be doubly grateful. Some of the discussion further up this page may be vaguely relevant to the matter too. I apologise for drawing attention what appears to me to be a storm in a tea-cup. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Last set of edits was trying to improve flow and readabiliy, hence I rearranged some of the sentences, moved things into different paragraphs. Other than tossing some adjectives I don't think were needed and altering a word of two (which I hope kept nuance of source), I had no intention of altering content. I think some of my non-philosophical objections were simply that the structure of that section had been bugging me. So take this in good faith. I popped in some hidden text, which was mostly for JLAN and OK w/me to toss it when read without need for comment, or if it really warrants a discussion, move it over here. Montanabw (talk) 04:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)