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I have removed the part about genetic relationships as I don't think this is a correct interpretation of the data. Also, one study alone kind of puts undue weight. I would like to see some other reliable citations for this. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 07:08, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
What are your reasons that the tree must be removed? Lysimachi ( talk) 00:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand why the wikilink to Han Chinese was removed multiple times without giving a reason. Are you claiming that Han Taiwanese are not Han Chinese? -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Only the Han-Chinese population, which accounted for 98% of the population in Taiwan, was considered for the recruitment of patients in this study.You can also see this which says
All of the participating T2D cases and controls were of Han Chinese origin, which is the origin of 98% of the Taiwan population.What you are not realising is that in English, the term "Chinese" is not owned by the People's Republic of China. Chinese is an ethnic term. A citizen of China is called a "Chinese National". You need to realise that English is a very different language from Chinese. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 10:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Your " paper in Nature (written by Taiwanese scientists)" was not published in the journal Nature, but Molecular Psychiatry.
The use of Han to refer to 漢人 is found in papers published in Nature, American Journal of Human Genetics, Scientific American, and other journals. It is also found in the The Cambridge History of China.
Unless you can prove that the usage in those sources is wrong, I don't see any problem in using Han to refer to 漢人. 13:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lysimachi ( talk • contribs)
Just saw this reference on Han people on another WP page. Its title is "Han" and it mentions the term "Han people" 14 times, "the Han" (the people) 7 times, and "Han Chinese" 3 times. Lysimachi ( talk) 13:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure. In this peer-reviewed journal article, Taiwanese of Han ethnicity are distinguished from the Chinese of the same ethnicity: "Although no significant association of NRAMP 1 polymorphism with susceptibility to tuberculosis was found in Taiwanese Hans in this study, a recent study from China reported that variants of NRAMP 1 were significantly associated with the severity of, rather than the susceptibility to, pulmonary tuberculosis in the Han Chinese population." Lysimachi ( talk) 16:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Here we report our characterization of the AZFc region in Han Chinese in Taiwan (Han Taiwanese) that make up 98% of the population
You tried to say Han Taiwanese are "also referred to as Taiwan Han Chinese" and cited five references [16][17][18][19][20]. WP:V: "anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." None of sources you cited seem to say so. In fact, [20] does not seem to mention "Taiwan Han Chinese" at all, while [16], [18] and [19] don't seem to mention "Han Taiwanese". Your claim is not verifiable. WP:OR: The claim seems to be your original research, for which no reliable, published sources exist. WP:REDUNDANCY: You made the first sentence unnecessarily redundant. WP:LEAD: "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." How important is "Taiwan Han Chinese" to be mentioned in the first sentence of the lead? WP:UNDUE: "Taiwan Han Chinese" is given undue weight. In fact, the only source ([17]) which mentions (but not equates) both Han Taiwanese and "Taiwan Han Chinese" also mentions "Taiwan-Han Chinese", "Taiwan Han-Chinese", and "Taiwanese Han Chinese". Why is "Taiwan Han Chinese" given special weight here? WP:NPOV: You are trying to push your view that Han Taiwanese are Chinese. Sure there are sources saying that, but this is clearly disputed. Even if there are sources saying Taiwanese people are Chinese or Taiwan is a part of China, you won't find it in the first sentence of the lead in Taiwanese people and Taiwan. Lysimachi ( talk) 09:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Lysimachi:Now could you find me a source which says that "Han Taiwanese" and "Taiwanese Hans" are the same? -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 06:11, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I had removed it but it was reverted without any explanation. I feel this is undue here. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:18, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I have no idea why another of my edit was just reverted. I have no idea how this is inaccurate per this source. I'm reproducing a selection below.
Both of these dimensions have been evident in Taiwan’s case, mutatis mutandis. In terms of constituent characteristics, the Taiwanese are relatively homogeneous in terms of language, culture, and ethnicity; ethnically, although nearly 98% of the island’s population are Han Chinese, there is a slight complication in terms of ethnic origins that has led to the coagulation of two distinguishable groups (sometimes called subethnic groups, because both are Han Chinese). These consist of (1) those whose ancestors migrated from the mainland in or since the 17th century, known as benshengren, or natives of the province, and (2) those who sought refuge (or whose parents sought refuge) from the mainland in the wake of the Nationalists’ loss of the Chinese civil war in 1946–49, commonly referred to as waishengren, or provincial outsiders.
I seriously do not understand why this was incorrect. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
"There is no simple uniform definition of Han Taiwanese. To determine if a Taiwanese is Han, common criteria include immigration background (from continental East Asia), using a Han language as the mother tongue, and observance of traditional Han festivals. Sometimes a negative definition is employed. Thus a Han Taiwanese could be defined as a Taiwanese who does not speak any language of Austronesians or other non-Han people (e.g., Manchus, Mongols) and does not observe the feasts of those people."
This whole chunk above is unsourced. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 13:36, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
I have added templates to the page. Many of the citations do not verify the text/are misinterpreted. A lot of the information needs citations. Please don't remove the templates simply because you disagree with it. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 13:19, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
I have removed a bunch of information because they are blatant misrepresentations of citations. I urge the original posted to prove how these are "correct interpretations of the citations" here and not edit war. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 02:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Lysimachi: I have removed a bunch of information as none of the citations said anything about them being "Han Taiwanese". Before reinserting them, I invite you to show me where does it mention "Han Taiwanese" in the sources and about the subject. Also, please use English language references because "Taiwan HanRen" is translated "Taiwan Han Chinese" - so Chinese language sources are best not used. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 02:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
could you explain why "of Han descent" in the lead sentence must be changed to "of Han Chinese descent"that depends only on the sources available. To me it does not appear that a distinction between Han descent and Han Chinese descent exists, they are synonymous. I would find it relatively unusual for a Han not to be of ethnic Chinese descent (that does not mean they are or identify as being Chinese) given that the Han people is a reference to the Han Dynasty of China. Where else could the Han Taiwanese come from but China? it sounds to me so similar to Australians - where else could they have originally come from but the United Kingdom? Mr rnddude ( talk) 08:57, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
In Taiwan's Wikipedia page, it should say "Han Chinese", not "Han Taiwanese". The source "Republic of China Yearbook 2014" (citation 5) that is used for Taiwan's ethnicity information uses the term "Han Chinese", not "Han Taiwanese". Therefore is it indisputable that Taiwan's page should use the term Han Chinese instead. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 22:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
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Prior to the Chinese civil war, even during the civil war Taiwan was merely a province of China(even under Qing Dynasty). How did "Han Chinese" suddenly turn into a different ethnic group, when even Taiwan's official name is the "Republic of China." This article strongly feels like it was created out of Anti-Chinese sentiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EndRacismNow2021 ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Since User:四条河原町 is not attempting to discuss their edit [13], I will start. The edit by this user was to replace "a Taiwanese ethnic group" with "subgroup of Han Chinese ethnic group residing in Taiwan". This isn't an issue about "facts" but framing. Per Talk:Taiwan/Archive_25#It_is_Han_Chinese I propose we at least replace "Han Chinese" with "Han" -- the former has political implications. I propose " Taiwanese ethnic group of Han descent", since it's important to link to Taiwanese people in the first sentence, which the new wording does not do. DrIdiot ( talk) 19:41, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Han Taiwanese article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have removed the part about genetic relationships as I don't think this is a correct interpretation of the data. Also, one study alone kind of puts undue weight. I would like to see some other reliable citations for this. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 07:08, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
What are your reasons that the tree must be removed? Lysimachi ( talk) 00:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand why the wikilink to Han Chinese was removed multiple times without giving a reason. Are you claiming that Han Taiwanese are not Han Chinese? -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:03, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Only the Han-Chinese population, which accounted for 98% of the population in Taiwan, was considered for the recruitment of patients in this study.You can also see this which says
All of the participating T2D cases and controls were of Han Chinese origin, which is the origin of 98% of the Taiwan population.What you are not realising is that in English, the term "Chinese" is not owned by the People's Republic of China. Chinese is an ethnic term. A citizen of China is called a "Chinese National". You need to realise that English is a very different language from Chinese. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 10:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Your " paper in Nature (written by Taiwanese scientists)" was not published in the journal Nature, but Molecular Psychiatry.
The use of Han to refer to 漢人 is found in papers published in Nature, American Journal of Human Genetics, Scientific American, and other journals. It is also found in the The Cambridge History of China.
Unless you can prove that the usage in those sources is wrong, I don't see any problem in using Han to refer to 漢人. 13:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lysimachi ( talk • contribs)
Just saw this reference on Han people on another WP page. Its title is "Han" and it mentions the term "Han people" 14 times, "the Han" (the people) 7 times, and "Han Chinese" 3 times. Lysimachi ( talk) 13:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure. In this peer-reviewed journal article, Taiwanese of Han ethnicity are distinguished from the Chinese of the same ethnicity: "Although no significant association of NRAMP 1 polymorphism with susceptibility to tuberculosis was found in Taiwanese Hans in this study, a recent study from China reported that variants of NRAMP 1 were significantly associated with the severity of, rather than the susceptibility to, pulmonary tuberculosis in the Han Chinese population." Lysimachi ( talk) 16:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Here we report our characterization of the AZFc region in Han Chinese in Taiwan (Han Taiwanese) that make up 98% of the population
You tried to say Han Taiwanese are "also referred to as Taiwan Han Chinese" and cited five references [16][17][18][19][20]. WP:V: "anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." None of sources you cited seem to say so. In fact, [20] does not seem to mention "Taiwan Han Chinese" at all, while [16], [18] and [19] don't seem to mention "Han Taiwanese". Your claim is not verifiable. WP:OR: The claim seems to be your original research, for which no reliable, published sources exist. WP:REDUNDANCY: You made the first sentence unnecessarily redundant. WP:LEAD: "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." How important is "Taiwan Han Chinese" to be mentioned in the first sentence of the lead? WP:UNDUE: "Taiwan Han Chinese" is given undue weight. In fact, the only source ([17]) which mentions (but not equates) both Han Taiwanese and "Taiwan Han Chinese" also mentions "Taiwan-Han Chinese", "Taiwan Han-Chinese", and "Taiwanese Han Chinese". Why is "Taiwan Han Chinese" given special weight here? WP:NPOV: You are trying to push your view that Han Taiwanese are Chinese. Sure there are sources saying that, but this is clearly disputed. Even if there are sources saying Taiwanese people are Chinese or Taiwan is a part of China, you won't find it in the first sentence of the lead in Taiwanese people and Taiwan. Lysimachi ( talk) 09:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Lysimachi:Now could you find me a source which says that "Han Taiwanese" and "Taiwanese Hans" are the same? -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 06:11, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I had removed it but it was reverted without any explanation. I feel this is undue here. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:18, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I have no idea why another of my edit was just reverted. I have no idea how this is inaccurate per this source. I'm reproducing a selection below.
Both of these dimensions have been evident in Taiwan’s case, mutatis mutandis. In terms of constituent characteristics, the Taiwanese are relatively homogeneous in terms of language, culture, and ethnicity; ethnically, although nearly 98% of the island’s population are Han Chinese, there is a slight complication in terms of ethnic origins that has led to the coagulation of two distinguishable groups (sometimes called subethnic groups, because both are Han Chinese). These consist of (1) those whose ancestors migrated from the mainland in or since the 17th century, known as benshengren, or natives of the province, and (2) those who sought refuge (or whose parents sought refuge) from the mainland in the wake of the Nationalists’ loss of the Chinese civil war in 1946–49, commonly referred to as waishengren, or provincial outsiders.
I seriously do not understand why this was incorrect. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 17:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
"There is no simple uniform definition of Han Taiwanese. To determine if a Taiwanese is Han, common criteria include immigration background (from continental East Asia), using a Han language as the mother tongue, and observance of traditional Han festivals. Sometimes a negative definition is employed. Thus a Han Taiwanese could be defined as a Taiwanese who does not speak any language of Austronesians or other non-Han people (e.g., Manchus, Mongols) and does not observe the feasts of those people."
This whole chunk above is unsourced. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 13:36, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
I have added templates to the page. Many of the citations do not verify the text/are misinterpreted. A lot of the information needs citations. Please don't remove the templates simply because you disagree with it. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 13:19, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
I have removed a bunch of information because they are blatant misrepresentations of citations. I urge the original posted to prove how these are "correct interpretations of the citations" here and not edit war. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 02:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Lysimachi: I have removed a bunch of information as none of the citations said anything about them being "Han Taiwanese". Before reinserting them, I invite you to show me where does it mention "Han Taiwanese" in the sources and about the subject. Also, please use English language references because "Taiwan HanRen" is translated "Taiwan Han Chinese" - so Chinese language sources are best not used. -- Lemongirl942 ( talk) 02:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
could you explain why "of Han descent" in the lead sentence must be changed to "of Han Chinese descent"that depends only on the sources available. To me it does not appear that a distinction between Han descent and Han Chinese descent exists, they are synonymous. I would find it relatively unusual for a Han not to be of ethnic Chinese descent (that does not mean they are or identify as being Chinese) given that the Han people is a reference to the Han Dynasty of China. Where else could the Han Taiwanese come from but China? it sounds to me so similar to Australians - where else could they have originally come from but the United Kingdom? Mr rnddude ( talk) 08:57, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
In Taiwan's Wikipedia page, it should say "Han Chinese", not "Han Taiwanese". The source "Republic of China Yearbook 2014" (citation 5) that is used for Taiwan's ethnicity information uses the term "Han Chinese", not "Han Taiwanese". Therefore is it indisputable that Taiwan's page should use the term Han Chinese instead. -- ExGuardianNinja ( talk) 22:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Han Taiwanese. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Prior to the Chinese civil war, even during the civil war Taiwan was merely a province of China(even under Qing Dynasty). How did "Han Chinese" suddenly turn into a different ethnic group, when even Taiwan's official name is the "Republic of China." This article strongly feels like it was created out of Anti-Chinese sentiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EndRacismNow2021 ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Since User:四条河原町 is not attempting to discuss their edit [13], I will start. The edit by this user was to replace "a Taiwanese ethnic group" with "subgroup of Han Chinese ethnic group residing in Taiwan". This isn't an issue about "facts" but framing. Per Talk:Taiwan/Archive_25#It_is_Han_Chinese I propose we at least replace "Han Chinese" with "Han" -- the former has political implications. I propose " Taiwanese ethnic group of Han descent", since it's important to link to Taiwanese people in the first sentence, which the new wording does not do. DrIdiot ( talk) 19:41, 2 December 2021 (UTC)