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There has an edit war been going on about the first two sentences of the lede, which currently read: "Hamites are the descendants of Ham, son of Noah, as described in Genesis. This terminology was borrowed from the Bible in 18th-century ethnology and linguistics by white supremacists to name a proposed division of the human race and the group of related languages they spoke." I think it is pretty clear that the term "Hamites" has frequently been used by white supremacists, but the question is whether those people who borrowed the term from the Bible were doing so in order to promote white supremacy. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 05:51, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The terms Eurocentric and white supremacists are irrelevant for the definition of the term and only reflect and channel the editor's political bias in the context of the discredited Hamitic hypothesis. The terms are loaded and the editor deliberately violates Wikipedia's NPOV. I suggest looking at the definitions compiled in the Oxford Reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.254.193.214 ( talk) 16:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
the source doesn't mention HamitesI don't think it has to, because the claim is about the "model of dividing humanity into different races", which is exactly what the source talks about. The word "Eurocentric" seems to be a bit more problematic. I personally think it is a legitimate condensation of the source and the section Hamites#Constructing the "Hamitic race", but maybe other editors might call it OR. Since the article is about the 19th century usage of the word, I think the biblical origin should remain where it is now. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I was just about to make an edit on this. The current lede makes it appear that the Hamitic thesis was a purely European concept, but that ignores the significant buy-in in colonial and post-colonial East-Central Africa (see 1 or 2 as examples). For better or worse, and really the latter, most of its modern advocates are black. As a suggestion, how about:
In race theory, Hamites were a distinct racial group which inhabited parts of Northeast Africa. The term was originally coined by European and North American exponents of scientific racism and was based on the Book of Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham. It is considered discredited.
— Brigade Piron ( talk) 11:03, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
was about drawing racial distinctions within a black population, because originally it made North Africans Caucasian, i.e. they were no longer seen as "black", but as nearly white. I'm also not sure about the anti-semitic connotations. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
One user has repeatedly inserted a section on "Genetics". It has already been reverted because "'Hamitic' is now considered obsolete classification, so a section on the genetics of the various (not necessarily especially related) groups that may (or may not) have been considered Hamites by the Bible is not relevant/appropriate."
Please give your reasons or refrain from inserting that section again. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:57, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The term is obsolete to you, perhaps. But when words like "racism" and "colonialism" and "scientifically discredited" are being flung around throughout the article, so discussion on the genetics of the Semitic Backflow into Northern and Eastern Africa is warranted. It in fact affirms that these early ethnographers were correct to believe what they could see with plainly with their eyes. I find the constant characterizations of these people's beliefs and motives to be petty, unscholarly, and frankly offensive. Perhaps they were merely trying to describe the world they observed around them. The science has proven them right. Why must you constantly impugn their motives? And what is this propensity to fling the word racist and its cognates around? I vote for removing all references to racism, etc, to stop declaring who or what is or is not racist, along with related moralizing adjudicating, and including the genetic backflow from the middle east in the discussion. Let's be scholarly and not political. It really is unseemly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WirmerFlagge ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Chill out, Doug. I'm not on a crusade to do anything. You really like characterizing others, don't you. Please, get off my back. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by WirmerFlagge ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
I got the impression that some editors who worked on this article have the notion that Hamites are an Ethnic group. Others (to whom I belong) are attached to mainstream science that has ceased to use the concept of a "Hamitic race" or "Hamitic languages". I'm planning to revise the article, but for now I'm convinced that the article doesn't meet the criteria for a B-Class article. Rsk6400 ( talk) 09:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
@
Wdford: I don't think the word "European" is a good replacement for "Eurocentric". Samuel George Morton, mentioned in the article, surely wasn't a "European anthropologist". "European colonialism" is taken directly from the source, but in the source it is used for the time of the emergence of the concept, roughly meaning 15th to 18th centuries. The article mostly deals with the 19th / 20th centuries. And slavery in the southern US was not "European ... oppression". On the other hand, the definition in
Eurocentrism describes exactly the world view of the early proponents of our theory. That word did not exist until the 1970's
is not a reason against using it, because it was coined from the beginning to describe / criticize thoughts of the past. --
Rsk6400 (
talk)
18:24, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
What seems to be the problem? because there seems to be no valid reason for ommiting the parts explaining how it was used by white supremacists and afrocentrics alike . It removes key context and drivers, creators behind the theory which needs to be in the summary. If you think that puts undue weight on afrocentrics and holds them to the same pedegree as white supremacists you can add to a lesser degree afrocentrics or remove that altogether. But the fact that the theories proponents being white supremacists and hamite being eurocentric is not something that is disputable. or undue. As well as how it relates to colonialism slavery etc [1]
There should be added how the theory itself is pseudoscience and pseudohistorical and discredited by modern scholars. [2] Not just how it's outdated . Giving it some past air of legitimacy.
Also sections on how this theory inspired and was used for genocide in Rwanda and how it was used by anthropologists to create pseudo historical myths about people in NorthEast Africa should also be included. Because these are all relevant. For now the summary needs cleaning, the way the whole article stands now it almost looks like a promotional propaganda for the hypothesis and its ideas Ragnimo ( talk) 09:58, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
by Europeans in support of colonialism and slaveryis already very strong. And afrocentric authors surely were not involved in the original creation of the concept. Regarding Rwanda: Go ahead ! I don't think adding something about Rwanda would be problematic. Regarding the first source you gave: The book seems to be about the Curse of Ham, which was used by fundamentalist Christians to justify the enslavement of West Africans. This article is about the Hamitic theory, which was used by Western authors to divide Africans into "better" Hamites and "lesser" "Negroids". That's something different. Regarding pseudoscience: I could imagine a first sentence like
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples in the context of a pseudoscientific model of dividing humanity into different races .... What do you think ? Regarding the article promoting the Hamitic theory: Could you name some examples ? -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 15:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t have access to Oxford etymology dictionary. According to etymology.com the first use of the word “Negroid” was in 1844. This is the same year Morton’s Crania Ægyptiaca was published. If anyone has a subscription for Oxford source I think they can prove it
https://www.etymonline.com/word/negroid
If anyone can prove this I’d kindly ask them to add this to the section “Negroid rather than Negro”.
On reference 50 I cited etymology.com. If anyone can find anything you can replace that reference. Thank you Markj573 ( talk) 00:11, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Because of the long rambling thread I decided to make a new section to make it easier to put my final arguments. In the latest version of the article I added a quote from Types of Mankind “inhabited by races unlike Asiatics, and equally unlike Negroes: but forming in anthropology a connecting link, and, geographically, another gradation. To say nothing of Egyptians proper, such were and are the Nubians, the Abyssinians, the Gallas, the Barabra, no less than the whole native population of the Barbary States.”
All these groups are people considered Hamites (see Sergi, which I had referenced in the latest version). Sergi also believed that Hamites are native Africans The latest version of the article shows Types of Mankind interpretation of Egyptians being Hamites (see latest image I uploaded, swarthy races Hamites. I also added a reference where they used the same image to strengthen their view the early Egyptians were Negroid. It’s just as relevant as Johnston who also identified Egyptians, Somali, Gala as Negroid. Rawlinson believed that Hamites (including Egyptians who are considered Hamites) were native to Africa, and an intermediate type between Caucasian and Negro
It’s established earlier in the article that Morton is an important figure in development of the Hamitic hypothesis. His changing views on the subject are very relevant to the Hamitic hypothesis. I want to emphasize there are different interpretations of the Hamitic hypothesis, as already stated Sergi didn’t believe they came from Asia
I’ll wait for third party to put in input but this is my case. The purpose of my recent edits were to tie in all these views with the Hamitic hypothesis, which should strengthen my case the additions should be added to this article Markj573 ( talk) 17:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There has an edit war been going on about the first two sentences of the lede, which currently read: "Hamites are the descendants of Ham, son of Noah, as described in Genesis. This terminology was borrowed from the Bible in 18th-century ethnology and linguistics by white supremacists to name a proposed division of the human race and the group of related languages they spoke." I think it is pretty clear that the term "Hamites" has frequently been used by white supremacists, but the question is whether those people who borrowed the term from the Bible were doing so in order to promote white supremacy. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 05:51, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The terms Eurocentric and white supremacists are irrelevant for the definition of the term and only reflect and channel the editor's political bias in the context of the discredited Hamitic hypothesis. The terms are loaded and the editor deliberately violates Wikipedia's NPOV. I suggest looking at the definitions compiled in the Oxford Reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.254.193.214 ( talk) 16:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
the source doesn't mention HamitesI don't think it has to, because the claim is about the "model of dividing humanity into different races", which is exactly what the source talks about. The word "Eurocentric" seems to be a bit more problematic. I personally think it is a legitimate condensation of the source and the section Hamites#Constructing the "Hamitic race", but maybe other editors might call it OR. Since the article is about the 19th century usage of the word, I think the biblical origin should remain where it is now. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I was just about to make an edit on this. The current lede makes it appear that the Hamitic thesis was a purely European concept, but that ignores the significant buy-in in colonial and post-colonial East-Central Africa (see 1 or 2 as examples). For better or worse, and really the latter, most of its modern advocates are black. As a suggestion, how about:
In race theory, Hamites were a distinct racial group which inhabited parts of Northeast Africa. The term was originally coined by European and North American exponents of scientific racism and was based on the Book of Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham. It is considered discredited.
— Brigade Piron ( talk) 11:03, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
was about drawing racial distinctions within a black population, because originally it made North Africans Caucasian, i.e. they were no longer seen as "black", but as nearly white. I'm also not sure about the anti-semitic connotations. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:19, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
One user has repeatedly inserted a section on "Genetics". It has already been reverted because "'Hamitic' is now considered obsolete classification, so a section on the genetics of the various (not necessarily especially related) groups that may (or may not) have been considered Hamites by the Bible is not relevant/appropriate."
Please give your reasons or refrain from inserting that section again. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 19:57, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The term is obsolete to you, perhaps. But when words like "racism" and "colonialism" and "scientifically discredited" are being flung around throughout the article, so discussion on the genetics of the Semitic Backflow into Northern and Eastern Africa is warranted. It in fact affirms that these early ethnographers were correct to believe what they could see with plainly with their eyes. I find the constant characterizations of these people's beliefs and motives to be petty, unscholarly, and frankly offensive. Perhaps they were merely trying to describe the world they observed around them. The science has proven them right. Why must you constantly impugn their motives? And what is this propensity to fling the word racist and its cognates around? I vote for removing all references to racism, etc, to stop declaring who or what is or is not racist, along with related moralizing adjudicating, and including the genetic backflow from the middle east in the discussion. Let's be scholarly and not political. It really is unseemly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WirmerFlagge ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Chill out, Doug. I'm not on a crusade to do anything. You really like characterizing others, don't you. Please, get off my back. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by WirmerFlagge ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
I got the impression that some editors who worked on this article have the notion that Hamites are an Ethnic group. Others (to whom I belong) are attached to mainstream science that has ceased to use the concept of a "Hamitic race" or "Hamitic languages". I'm planning to revise the article, but for now I'm convinced that the article doesn't meet the criteria for a B-Class article. Rsk6400 ( talk) 09:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
@
Wdford: I don't think the word "European" is a good replacement for "Eurocentric". Samuel George Morton, mentioned in the article, surely wasn't a "European anthropologist". "European colonialism" is taken directly from the source, but in the source it is used for the time of the emergence of the concept, roughly meaning 15th to 18th centuries. The article mostly deals with the 19th / 20th centuries. And slavery in the southern US was not "European ... oppression". On the other hand, the definition in
Eurocentrism describes exactly the world view of the early proponents of our theory. That word did not exist until the 1970's
is not a reason against using it, because it was coined from the beginning to describe / criticize thoughts of the past. --
Rsk6400 (
talk)
18:24, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
What seems to be the problem? because there seems to be no valid reason for ommiting the parts explaining how it was used by white supremacists and afrocentrics alike . It removes key context and drivers, creators behind the theory which needs to be in the summary. If you think that puts undue weight on afrocentrics and holds them to the same pedegree as white supremacists you can add to a lesser degree afrocentrics or remove that altogether. But the fact that the theories proponents being white supremacists and hamite being eurocentric is not something that is disputable. or undue. As well as how it relates to colonialism slavery etc [1]
There should be added how the theory itself is pseudoscience and pseudohistorical and discredited by modern scholars. [2] Not just how it's outdated . Giving it some past air of legitimacy.
Also sections on how this theory inspired and was used for genocide in Rwanda and how it was used by anthropologists to create pseudo historical myths about people in NorthEast Africa should also be included. Because these are all relevant. For now the summary needs cleaning, the way the whole article stands now it almost looks like a promotional propaganda for the hypothesis and its ideas Ragnimo ( talk) 09:58, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
by Europeans in support of colonialism and slaveryis already very strong. And afrocentric authors surely were not involved in the original creation of the concept. Regarding Rwanda: Go ahead ! I don't think adding something about Rwanda would be problematic. Regarding the first source you gave: The book seems to be about the Curse of Ham, which was used by fundamentalist Christians to justify the enslavement of West Africans. This article is about the Hamitic theory, which was used by Western authors to divide Africans into "better" Hamites and "lesser" "Negroids". That's something different. Regarding pseudoscience: I could imagine a first sentence like
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples in the context of a pseudoscientific model of dividing humanity into different races .... What do you think ? Regarding the article promoting the Hamitic theory: Could you name some examples ? -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 15:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t have access to Oxford etymology dictionary. According to etymology.com the first use of the word “Negroid” was in 1844. This is the same year Morton’s Crania Ægyptiaca was published. If anyone has a subscription for Oxford source I think they can prove it
https://www.etymonline.com/word/negroid
If anyone can prove this I’d kindly ask them to add this to the section “Negroid rather than Negro”.
On reference 50 I cited etymology.com. If anyone can find anything you can replace that reference. Thank you Markj573 ( talk) 00:11, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Because of the long rambling thread I decided to make a new section to make it easier to put my final arguments. In the latest version of the article I added a quote from Types of Mankind “inhabited by races unlike Asiatics, and equally unlike Negroes: but forming in anthropology a connecting link, and, geographically, another gradation. To say nothing of Egyptians proper, such were and are the Nubians, the Abyssinians, the Gallas, the Barabra, no less than the whole native population of the Barbary States.”
All these groups are people considered Hamites (see Sergi, which I had referenced in the latest version). Sergi also believed that Hamites are native Africans The latest version of the article shows Types of Mankind interpretation of Egyptians being Hamites (see latest image I uploaded, swarthy races Hamites. I also added a reference where they used the same image to strengthen their view the early Egyptians were Negroid. It’s just as relevant as Johnston who also identified Egyptians, Somali, Gala as Negroid. Rawlinson believed that Hamites (including Egyptians who are considered Hamites) were native to Africa, and an intermediate type between Caucasian and Negro
It’s established earlier in the article that Morton is an important figure in development of the Hamitic hypothesis. His changing views on the subject are very relevant to the Hamitic hypothesis. I want to emphasize there are different interpretations of the Hamitic hypothesis, as already stated Sergi didn’t believe they came from Asia
I’ll wait for third party to put in input but this is my case. The purpose of my recent edits were to tie in all these views with the Hamitic hypothesis, which should strengthen my case the additions should be added to this article Markj573 ( talk) 17:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)