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Outcome of discussion - No concensus to merge, no new comments for well over 4 weeks. - BillCJ 17:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree, the two ships have their history (and up to recently their photos) so they will remain separate articles. Also, how would you call the merge article ? Jor70 16:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree, I believe the best way of tracking the evolution of a ship that has been used by different navies under different names is by creating a main article under the initial name (whenever possible) or the most important name from a historiucal/career pov. That article should include a brief reference to its usage by other navies and links to articles that should detail the service under each of those navies/names. This would support much better the "neutral point of view" than merging everything and choosing (under which criteria?) one of the names to represent the ship. An example of this can be seen in the book "Crusers of Worl War Two", by M.J.Whitley, where several ex-british cruisers transferred to allied navies have an entry for their history under british flag and another entry for their history under the allied country flag (Australia, Poland, etc.). Thus, "Karel Doorman" and "Veinticinco de Mayo" should not be merged but cross-referenced. DPdH 07:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
[1] suggests merging unless the ship has more than one "significant career". I think this is one that would qualify, although ironically because her British and Argentine periods are significant, both with combat operations of interest, and it seems pedantic and confusing to have one or two articles instead of three. 99% of the time the alternate career is of little interest, thus we use redirects most of the time, this is one of the 1%. Stan 00:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree
The best and close example is the case of the USS Phoenix and ARA General Belgrano articles; the cruiser had a long career in both navies (as the Doorman/25 de Mayo), and the change of circumstances and the upgrades that the original warship faced make the split in two different articles unavoidable. By merging, we are risking to loss valuable details of the 'Dutch' as well as the 'Argentine' carrier. Her role in both the Irian crisis (1961) and the Falklands war (1982) also deserves an extensive analyse well beyond the scope of a single article.
DagosNavy
01:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I've just realized that the following paragraph is (in my opinion) not related specifically to the "Karel Doorman" history, and hence should be removed from this wikiarticle:
Although it's a very interesting historical note, it seems that it would be better placed in a wikiarticle about the "Indonesia - west New Guinea issue" (that probably already exists in Wikipedia); and at most that article should be referenced/linked in this one for any interested reader to be able to read more details about this specific topic.
So my proposal is: if no reasonable objections are raised, I'll remove this paragraph by the end of this month; and if I am able to locate the adequate article where to place it, I'll do so (and reference that article from this one).
Kind regards,
DPdH (
talk)
00:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It's June now, so I've removed the paragraph. - BillCJ ( talk) 22:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
There are a few nice pics that might add to the article from a Dutch aviation magazine, they are all public domain or creative commons license. http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=HNLMS_Karel_Doorman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.146.244 ( talk) 20:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Outcome of discussion - No concensus to merge, no new comments for well over 4 weeks. - BillCJ 17:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree, the two ships have their history (and up to recently their photos) so they will remain separate articles. Also, how would you call the merge article ? Jor70 16:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree, I believe the best way of tracking the evolution of a ship that has been used by different navies under different names is by creating a main article under the initial name (whenever possible) or the most important name from a historiucal/career pov. That article should include a brief reference to its usage by other navies and links to articles that should detail the service under each of those navies/names. This would support much better the "neutral point of view" than merging everything and choosing (under which criteria?) one of the names to represent the ship. An example of this can be seen in the book "Crusers of Worl War Two", by M.J.Whitley, where several ex-british cruisers transferred to allied navies have an entry for their history under british flag and another entry for their history under the allied country flag (Australia, Poland, etc.). Thus, "Karel Doorman" and "Veinticinco de Mayo" should not be merged but cross-referenced. DPdH 07:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
[1] suggests merging unless the ship has more than one "significant career". I think this is one that would qualify, although ironically because her British and Argentine periods are significant, both with combat operations of interest, and it seems pedantic and confusing to have one or two articles instead of three. 99% of the time the alternate career is of little interest, thus we use redirects most of the time, this is one of the 1%. Stan 00:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree
The best and close example is the case of the USS Phoenix and ARA General Belgrano articles; the cruiser had a long career in both navies (as the Doorman/25 de Mayo), and the change of circumstances and the upgrades that the original warship faced make the split in two different articles unavoidable. By merging, we are risking to loss valuable details of the 'Dutch' as well as the 'Argentine' carrier. Her role in both the Irian crisis (1961) and the Falklands war (1982) also deserves an extensive analyse well beyond the scope of a single article.
DagosNavy
01:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, I've just realized that the following paragraph is (in my opinion) not related specifically to the "Karel Doorman" history, and hence should be removed from this wikiarticle:
Although it's a very interesting historical note, it seems that it would be better placed in a wikiarticle about the "Indonesia - west New Guinea issue" (that probably already exists in Wikipedia); and at most that article should be referenced/linked in this one for any interested reader to be able to read more details about this specific topic.
So my proposal is: if no reasonable objections are raised, I'll remove this paragraph by the end of this month; and if I am able to locate the adequate article where to place it, I'll do so (and reference that article from this one).
Kind regards,
DPdH (
talk)
00:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It's June now, so I've removed the paragraph. - BillCJ ( talk) 22:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
There are a few nice pics that might add to the article from a Dutch aviation magazine, they are all public domain or creative commons license. http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=HNLMS_Karel_Doorman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.81.146.244 ( talk) 20:27, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on HNLMS Karel Doorman (R81). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)