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Issues identified are: In the UK birth certificates often do not record a surname; modern practice means we mostly take our fathers surname. However in Welsh tradition, which Harri's family observed, the surname is taken from the father's first name. The website "find my past" is apparently not able to cope with this situation and incorrectly lists Harri's birth name. Please don't restore it. --Errant(
chat!)09:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)reply
The VRTS ticket number is
2012052210002701.
Cite for "In February 2008, he left the BBC to join Fleishman-Hillard London, a public relations agency, as a Senior Policy Advisor in public affairs."? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.0.123.12 (
talk)
15:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)reply
"Dubious" pronunciation of first name
"His first name is pronounced "GITT-o", the vowel in the second syllable being undiphthongised (/ˈɡɪtɒ/)"
Would whoever added the "dubious" label care to explain exactly what part of this they find "dubious" and why? Rather than just adding unhelpful labels that disfigure the article I mean?
Flapdragon (
talk)
18:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That isn't a possible English pronunciation: you can't end a word in /ɒ/. Neither is it Welsh, for that matter, if we assume that the language were misattributed, since Welsh does not have an /ɒ/.
kwami (
talk)
00:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Well now, that would be because it's not an English name. English does however have a /ɒ/ phoneme and this is the one that the Welsh sound (however you care to interpret it in your analysis of Welsh, which let's not get into) maps onto. What exactly makes it not possible in English? Really not clear what your problem is with this!
Flapdragon (
talk)
00:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I guess Kwami's point was that English words never end in /ɒ/ - it's not "impossible" in any physical sense, it just never happens, so /ˈɡɪtɒ/ would sound strange if dropped into an English sentence. Of course, Welsh names can end in a monophthong o-sound, but then this wouldn't be /ɒ/. So I think what we should do is provide the native Welsh pronunciation. I can't - can you add it?
We could, though I don't see much point. This is the English Wikipedia. What matters is how this non-English name should be pronounced in English, and the transcription does that perfectly. What do you understand by "compatible with English phonology"? Perhaps you mean English phonetics? The transcription shouldn't include any sounds that don't exist in English? -- which it doesn't. Obviously the name doesn't conform to English phonotactical constraints, which apply to, er, English -- and neither do the names Dvorak or Einstein.
Flapdragon (
talk)
16:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)reply
We could start by giving the
Welsh pronunciation - it would be something like ['gɨ̞tɔ], but a native speaker would have to confirm this. In
English I usually hear it as /'gɪtoʊ/, but that's just anecdotal, I don't know if it can be referenced.
Lfh (
talk)
15:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)reply
You mean like the pron you've just changed, which was supplied many months ago, but which you have developed such a powerful but inexplicable resistance to? Well, never mind, life is too short to spend any more time on this, but I do hope you won't now go round every Welsh name you can think of and start objecting to it because it "sounds strange" in an English sentence. Oh, and if you ever get the chance do listen to Guto's pronunciation of his own name on a news report (shame he's now left the BBC). But please don't send him an email telling him he's got it all wrong.
Flapdragon (
talk)
19:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)reply
This all seems to be a bit of a fuss over very little. Does anyone have a serious objection to /ˈgɪtɔ ˈhari/? That's how a Welsh-speaker from South Wales (i.e. a man like Guto Harri) would pronounce the name (a northerner like me would say /ˈgɨ̞tɔ ˈhari/). As far as I can tell, the only issue with the article as it was is the use of /ɒ/ instead of /ɔ/.
garik (
talk)
10:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I've edited the article. It's not clear to me that English people definitely tend to pronounce his name /'gɪtoʊ/; they may use a schwa. Most of his colleagues, I suspect, attempt to pronounce it something like he pronounces it. /ɫ/ isn't an English sound either, but Rory Cellan-Jones's colleagues all seem to have a go at pronouncing it as in Welsh. I'll have to keep my ears open next time he's on the news.
garik (
talk)
10:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Thanks Garik. This was only ever a problem over IPA and now it's resolved. The English pronunciation can always be provided as well, if it can be shown that there is a standard version in English. I'm restoring the original phrase about "undiphthongised o" because this is clearly true and relevant - it was only the transcription that was problematic. Cheers
Lfh (
talk)
16:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Last name
How did the very unusual (unique?) adoption of a parental first name as an offspring's surname come about?
The England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index for Cardiff, 1966, Q3, vol.8b, p.335, has his details as "Pritchard-Jones, Guto". So, the form "Guto Harri" would have been adopted by either himself or his parents, either at birth or at some later point. The birth index is a
primary source and should not be used directly in the article. However, if there are any secondary sources, his registered birth name should be included in the article.
Ghmyrtle (
talk) 08:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC) PS: Checking back, I see it was included in the article up to 2012, but removed
here.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
08:19, 6 February 2022 (UTC)reply
recent months
Section Brexit/Boris Johnson says he left his job in Sep 2022; it's now June 2023 (or will be in a few hours) so nearly nine months. Ought this article say what he's done since?
Nick Barnett (
talk)
15:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Oxford, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
University of Oxford on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of OxfordWikipedia:WikiProject University of OxfordTemplate:WikiProject University of OxfordUniversity of Oxford articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject BBC, an attempt to better organise information in articles related to the
BBC. If you would like to participate, please visit the
project page where you can join us as a member. You can also visit the
BBC Portal.BBCWikipedia:WikiProject BBCTemplate:WikiProject BBCBBC articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
Issues identified are: In the UK birth certificates often do not record a surname; modern practice means we mostly take our fathers surname. However in Welsh tradition, which Harri's family observed, the surname is taken from the father's first name. The website "find my past" is apparently not able to cope with this situation and incorrectly lists Harri's birth name. Please don't restore it. --Errant(
chat!)09:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)reply
The VRTS ticket number is
2012052210002701.
Cite for "In February 2008, he left the BBC to join Fleishman-Hillard London, a public relations agency, as a Senior Policy Advisor in public affairs."? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.0.123.12 (
talk)
15:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)reply
"Dubious" pronunciation of first name
"His first name is pronounced "GITT-o", the vowel in the second syllable being undiphthongised (/ˈɡɪtɒ/)"
Would whoever added the "dubious" label care to explain exactly what part of this they find "dubious" and why? Rather than just adding unhelpful labels that disfigure the article I mean?
Flapdragon (
talk)
18:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That isn't a possible English pronunciation: you can't end a word in /ɒ/. Neither is it Welsh, for that matter, if we assume that the language were misattributed, since Welsh does not have an /ɒ/.
kwami (
talk)
00:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Well now, that would be because it's not an English name. English does however have a /ɒ/ phoneme and this is the one that the Welsh sound (however you care to interpret it in your analysis of Welsh, which let's not get into) maps onto. What exactly makes it not possible in English? Really not clear what your problem is with this!
Flapdragon (
talk)
00:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I guess Kwami's point was that English words never end in /ɒ/ - it's not "impossible" in any physical sense, it just never happens, so /ˈɡɪtɒ/ would sound strange if dropped into an English sentence. Of course, Welsh names can end in a monophthong o-sound, but then this wouldn't be /ɒ/. So I think what we should do is provide the native Welsh pronunciation. I can't - can you add it?
We could, though I don't see much point. This is the English Wikipedia. What matters is how this non-English name should be pronounced in English, and the transcription does that perfectly. What do you understand by "compatible with English phonology"? Perhaps you mean English phonetics? The transcription shouldn't include any sounds that don't exist in English? -- which it doesn't. Obviously the name doesn't conform to English phonotactical constraints, which apply to, er, English -- and neither do the names Dvorak or Einstein.
Flapdragon (
talk)
16:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)reply
We could start by giving the
Welsh pronunciation - it would be something like ['gɨ̞tɔ], but a native speaker would have to confirm this. In
English I usually hear it as /'gɪtoʊ/, but that's just anecdotal, I don't know if it can be referenced.
Lfh (
talk)
15:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)reply
You mean like the pron you've just changed, which was supplied many months ago, but which you have developed such a powerful but inexplicable resistance to? Well, never mind, life is too short to spend any more time on this, but I do hope you won't now go round every Welsh name you can think of and start objecting to it because it "sounds strange" in an English sentence. Oh, and if you ever get the chance do listen to Guto's pronunciation of his own name on a news report (shame he's now left the BBC). But please don't send him an email telling him he's got it all wrong.
Flapdragon (
talk)
19:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)reply
This all seems to be a bit of a fuss over very little. Does anyone have a serious objection to /ˈgɪtɔ ˈhari/? That's how a Welsh-speaker from South Wales (i.e. a man like Guto Harri) would pronounce the name (a northerner like me would say /ˈgɨ̞tɔ ˈhari/). As far as I can tell, the only issue with the article as it was is the use of /ɒ/ instead of /ɔ/.
garik (
talk)
10:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I've edited the article. It's not clear to me that English people definitely tend to pronounce his name /'gɪtoʊ/; they may use a schwa. Most of his colleagues, I suspect, attempt to pronounce it something like he pronounces it. /ɫ/ isn't an English sound either, but Rory Cellan-Jones's colleagues all seem to have a go at pronouncing it as in Welsh. I'll have to keep my ears open next time he's on the news.
garik (
talk)
10:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Thanks Garik. This was only ever a problem over IPA and now it's resolved. The English pronunciation can always be provided as well, if it can be shown that there is a standard version in English. I'm restoring the original phrase about "undiphthongised o" because this is clearly true and relevant - it was only the transcription that was problematic. Cheers
Lfh (
talk)
16:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Last name
How did the very unusual (unique?) adoption of a parental first name as an offspring's surname come about?
The England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index for Cardiff, 1966, Q3, vol.8b, p.335, has his details as "Pritchard-Jones, Guto". So, the form "Guto Harri" would have been adopted by either himself or his parents, either at birth or at some later point. The birth index is a
primary source and should not be used directly in the article. However, if there are any secondary sources, his registered birth name should be included in the article.
Ghmyrtle (
talk) 08:14, 6 February 2022 (UTC) PS: Checking back, I see it was included in the article up to 2012, but removed
here.
Ghmyrtle (
talk)
08:19, 6 February 2022 (UTC)reply
recent months
Section Brexit/Boris Johnson says he left his job in Sep 2022; it's now June 2023 (or will be in a few hours) so nearly nine months. Ought this article say what he's done since?
Nick Barnett (
talk)
15:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply