This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sonic Youth is grunge? Please explain. Kingturtle 09:13 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
p.s can i just say that grunge music did not die out the day kurt cobain died. And a lot of the bands above are certainly not grundge. - Anonymous user, comment moved here by Evercat
I don't think Days Of The New counts as a prominent band. They were more like a one-hit wonder. -- LGagnon
While I think that it is reasonable to argue that Neil Young is "the godfather of grunge" (for his music with Crazy Horse), I think it is really weird to provide an external link to an article that says this and not even mention the topic in the article. We should go one way or the other. -- Jmabel 07:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm shocked there's no mention of the Singles movie and especially soundtrack here. Postdlf 13:01 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Two recently added external links (labeled "Grunge Music - History" and "Grunge Music - Early History") look pretty useless to me, but I'm not a significant contributor to this article. Would someone else please pass judgement? TNX. -- Jmabel 06:34, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
The Vines, recently added under Prominent Bands seem an odd choice to me (both in terms of being prominent and in terms of being grunge). The Cult are duly prominent, but I don't think of them as grunge. But maybe I'm just too old to know. Comment welcome (not on my being too old). -- Jmabel 05:02, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
Since Blue Moon and Company were on the list, I assume this is the same anon as last time. I deleted all except Marcy Playground, who at least are a prominent band. I leave it to someone else to decide if they are grunge. -- Jmabel 18:02, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we need the definition of prominent pointed out for some editors. We keep on having obscure, unnotable bands added to the list. -- LGagnon 00:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
Just seen an edit in Killdozer that claims they were a pioneer of grunge. Don't really know enough about grunge to say if its so, I'd guess they were happy in their hardcore punk niche. Opinions? ---- Charles Stewart 17:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Same anon who recently re-added Sonic Youth (which I removed again) also added the Pixies. I think of them more as a precursor than as part of the grunge contingent. I think they should be mentioned, but in the same place we mention others who anticipated or influenced grunge, rather than listed as a grunge band. Other thoughts? -- Jmabel 18:22, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Marcy Playground is definitely not grunge. Their musical style doesn't fit the genre and they formed a couple of years after the popularity of grunge had subsided. -- Bumhoolery 15:15 28 October 2004
The Smashing Pumpkins were recently and anonymously added to article as grunge "mainstays". Good band, like 'em, guess they are about the right period, but I never really thought of them as grunge. What do others think? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:55, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Would someone else take a look at the recent edits by User:24.13.183.57? They don't look to me to be on the mark, but I'm hesitant to roll them back without a second opinion. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:56, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
I had to changed W.A.S.P. to Brittany Fox and Lillian Axe who were more superficial rock bands heavily pushed by large record industries to sell sex, hair, and style over music substance. People have to be careful when they step into the Heavy Metal area because we suffered along time in the 80’s not getting any of our music EVER played on radio stations and barely even today, unlike grunge. If you look at bands like ACDC, (The Razors Edge), Iron Maiden (No Prayer for the dying), Megadeth (Rust in Piece) and even W.A.S.P. this was not the case since they always stuck to their roots and actually got allot more fluid in their music approaches in the later 80’s allowing then to jam more and not be super-strict to a riff pattern. I’m not so sure that this looser style was pushed by grunge although I am willing to debate weather Alternative Rock helped influence more jamming. This more “earthy” play-style might have been influenced by Guns and Roses in 1988 since they were a Hard Rock band who mixed the genres well and jammed pretty good. Flannels Ripped Jeans and Leather Jackets were always contained with-in the Heavy Metal underground or even realms into Def Lepord. If it wasn’t for this the entire 80’s would have been a synth-pop nightmare if it wasn’t already. I might credit grunge for bringing bands like Black Sabbath, who had their stuff in bargain bins for years, to the mainstream though. Honestly, there was allot of Alternative Rock junk out there that was just as guilty. I think what happened is all the good bands from all genres started to open their sounds up more and jam and stay true to their music roots and that’s what is allowing a good musical comeback today in the industry. If you stay pure it always works. I just wouldn’t credit Grunge as the only band that wore these cloths and did these styles. It’s not true. Check out W.A.S.P.’s website. Their new stuff is real good and pure. http://www.waspnation.com/
Wasn’t Axel Rose wearing his trademark orange flannel well before Cobain or I might be wrong?
That’s a bunch of media hype. Alls this does is contribute to the hype the film Hype! brought out in 1996 to stop grunge from being considered the greatest form of music and some sort of perfect music type. There is no reason to pummel Heavy Metal as Heavy Metal doesn’t pummel grunge but cheesy pop bands. Meaning, bands that use style over musicianship. To call W.A.S.P. fake is childish. Listen to their music and it’s some of the most well written music of its time and today, regardless of weather you like it or not. Lillian Axe and the like where immensely popular for their short lived times at the time and that’s what should be gotten rid off; short lived phony rock. Grunge brought Alt Rock to the mainstream and they did it by blending genres.
That’s Ok that you don’t like Heavy Metal. but why is this a part of the grunge page? Does being involved in the grunge scene automatically mean you have to hate Heavy Metal? Most Heavy Metal dudes I know like grunge including me and we don’t pummel grunge on the Heavy Metal page. If you look at this grunge page and the Alternative Rock page they both state grunge barrowed heavily from thrash metal and heavy metal. This includes: Flannels, ripped jeans, and dark florescent colors like the cover of pearl jam’s ten as well as the heavy “superficial” riffs and all of the drugs and other stuff. I think the expensive designer clothing your talking about is more from POP music I don’t see how GnR wore expensive designer stuff regarding the fact that they wore ripped jeans and basic t-shirts on stage in the 80’s. W.A.S.P. is not total “Shock Rock” That’s more Metallica and Slayer Nirvana didn’t have Shock Rock elements like all the screaming and instrument bashing? How is this not superficial? W.A.S.P. is not categorized as Hair Metal but Heavy Metal. Hair Metal is like Glam Rock and emphasizes ballads and looks, mainly. Wasp may have had poofy hair at times but so did Ozzy in the 80’s and both of them are Heavy Metal and some of the greatest musicians of all time.
I changed the W.A.S.P. and GnR to two hair metals bands popular in the late 80s/ early 90s. W.A.S.P. was a cheesy metal band, but not a hair metal band, and they were never terribly popular. And why the hell would someone who is making the argument that grunge "killed" hair metal mention GnR, who had massive hits at the peak of grunges popularity? And who weren't hair metal? -- 65.207.129.252
Someone recently and anonymously added to the lead paragraph, "The origin of the term "grunge", as used in this context, is unclear, but many believe Seattle rock critic Veronika Kalmar was the first writer to use the term on a regular basis." I find this very unlikely: Google gives only 13 hits for "Veronika Kalmar" + "grunge", though I suppose that due to sites mirroring us it will soon give more. It probably doesn't help that the main place she published her criticism, Seattle's Rocket, is long gone, but still...
As far as I can tell, none of the pages Google finds make this assertion; some are just conicidences of an add for her book appearing on the same page as the word grunge. This is a topic likely to be much-discussed on line, so "many" is very suspect. Unless someone has a relevant citation, this clearly does not belong in the article. All due respect to Kalmar, she's been a very good writer especially on DIY culture and might deserve a Wikipedia article of her own, but this particular claim doesn't seem to pan out. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:52, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
Ok, since we've had the Foo Fighters removed from the prominent bands list over and over again, can we please just discuss this first before doing it again? -- [[User:LGagnon| LGagnon]] 00:53, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
I guess Candlebox is grunge; don't think any of the others are. Fine bands, from what I know of them, but grunge? I haven't heard enough of Babes in Toyland to say for sure, but I know 7 Year Bitch's music thoroughly and am pretty familiar with L7. 7 Year Bitch: right place, right time, overlapping social circles, very different sound. Very precise guitar and bass attack even if there is a lot of fuzz and distortion. Very original band, love 'em to death (so to speak), but grunge? L7: just being on Sub Pop isn't enough to make a grunge band!
As usual in these things I'll wait till at least one other person weighs in rather than reverting unilaterally. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:11, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
I talked to Clark Humphrey on this. His take:
He also remarked that post-1992, Mudhoney were the only major band that still embraced the word grunge. I guess that means:
It also means we should certainly drop 7 Year Bitch, and that BiT are hanging by a thread. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:31, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)
what do you think about nirvana?
I love the Fastbacks and all, but "evolved out of local punk bands like the Fastbacks?" They aren't particularly punk (like what punk band covers Queen and Mott the Hoople?) and they don't seem to me to have been particularly influential on grunge. If you want to single out a local band as an influence, I'd certainly pick the Melvins (who we already mention in a different context). What is the nature of the supposed influence? Just that Kurt Bloch uses distortion on his guitar? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:13, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Mad Season? One (good) album, lots of people who did notable work in other bands, but no hits that I recall, and only a few live gigs. Certainly far more reasonable that some that have been on the list in the past, but it really seems to be stretching things to call them one of the prominent grunge bands. Other opinions? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:33, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need this timeline? It takes up a lot of space and doesn't say much other than the lifespans of some bands (a few of which may be inaccurate) and categorizes them. The lifespans aren't really needed (that can go in the bands' own articles), and the rest of the info can be put into a few paragraphs. -- LGagnon 23:59, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need to support media hype with the "godfather of grunge" thing? That whole concept came from the media going nuts over Pearl Jam playing with Young; it wasn't even debated before the media made up the concept. I'm not even sure "widely debated" is accurate; not many people bother debating such a pointless concept. It would probably be better to just change the paragraph into one talking about Young as an influence on the genre rather than leaving it as it is. At the moment, it just seems like a weasely way to force an opinion that one person deserves to be put on a pedistal above all other grunge musicians. -- LGagnon 02:07, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I don't know who Cell is. I assume if they were that famous they'd have an article by now. I'm removing them from the list for now; if anyone has a good argument in their favor I'll put them back. -- LGagnon 19:16, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
From the article "Independent record labels, which used to rarely have success on level with major labels, were able to sell albums with equal or similar success as the major labels (most notably in the case of Epitaph Records)." Most notably? More notably than Sub Pop? Admittedly Sub Pop eventually sold out a 50% interest to a major, but how is Epitaph more notable? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:40, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
There are a lot of weasel words in the article, things like "most fans think", "many people said", stuff like that. Someone would well to look for the words "most" and "many" in the article and see what might need a citation vs. what is so blatantly true as to deserve outright assertion, but it's time to go weasel-hunting. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:43, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Somebody added a new article on this as well as a paragraph on it to this article. However, I have found no information whatsoever on this genre that the submitter mentions. Without any proof, it doesn't sound too authentic to me. Until we've got some concrete proof, I think this should be removed. -- LGagnon 19:00, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
And now we have grunge metal. Cite some sources people, because these look like dubious "genres" to me. -- LGagnon 00:49, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
grunge:"post-grunge"::heavy metal:"false metal"
get rid of it. (anon 6 May 2005)
Hey why got to put down ol' Neil? Maybe "Godfather of Grunge" is questionable, but there's no doubt he was one of the biggest antecedents, particularly for Cobain and Pearl Jam. The article should give this its due. JDG 18:56, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I understand alot of grunge followers don't count these two bands as "grunge" per se, but how can you include STP as one of the most prominent grunge bands at the bottom, when there is a contradiction in the middle paragraphs that say STP and Bush are NOT considered to be grunge, because they aren't from the Pacific NW?
A recent edit mentions Morrissey and The Smiths as influences on grunge. I haven't seen any such comparison before. Can we have some proof of this? Just because one person thinks they sound similar doesn't mean they are an influence. -- LGagnon 17:12, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
We don't need to section every one or two paragraphs. This doesn't improve the readability; it just makes the article look ackward and oversectioned. Some of the new section names were very ambiguous too; the "Knock-on effect" one makes no sense, and "Beyond the Pacific Northwest" doesn't explain what is supposed to be beyond the Pacific Northwest. Additionally, new info added to the article was wrong. The part about grunge becoming a national success in the 90s was specifically about how it hadn't caught on in the US yet; remember, it was a British magazine that exposed it during the first wave of its popularity. And the media did not view grunge as being like the British punk of the 1970s; they saw it as another hippie culture. The media was (and to some degree still is) very Boomer-centric, and tried to see grunge through a Boomer point of view. I have reverted these changes, and I don't think we should bother reverting them again without any discussion. -- LGagnon 15:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Can the person who added Loser: The Real Seattle Music Story to the references section please add a citation for it? It kind of looks out of place without one, and it would be nice to know what info originates from it. -- LGagnon July 6, 2005 19:55 (UTC)
Do we really need a new template for the genre box? It's only used here, and the other article it is linked to ( Post-grunge music) is innapropriate for this album box (it should have its own). -- LGagnon 03:39, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sonic Youth is grunge? Please explain. Kingturtle 09:13 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
p.s can i just say that grunge music did not die out the day kurt cobain died. And a lot of the bands above are certainly not grundge. - Anonymous user, comment moved here by Evercat
I don't think Days Of The New counts as a prominent band. They were more like a one-hit wonder. -- LGagnon
While I think that it is reasonable to argue that Neil Young is "the godfather of grunge" (for his music with Crazy Horse), I think it is really weird to provide an external link to an article that says this and not even mention the topic in the article. We should go one way or the other. -- Jmabel 07:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm shocked there's no mention of the Singles movie and especially soundtrack here. Postdlf 13:01 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Two recently added external links (labeled "Grunge Music - History" and "Grunge Music - Early History") look pretty useless to me, but I'm not a significant contributor to this article. Would someone else please pass judgement? TNX. -- Jmabel 06:34, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
The Vines, recently added under Prominent Bands seem an odd choice to me (both in terms of being prominent and in terms of being grunge). The Cult are duly prominent, but I don't think of them as grunge. But maybe I'm just too old to know. Comment welcome (not on my being too old). -- Jmabel 05:02, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
Since Blue Moon and Company were on the list, I assume this is the same anon as last time. I deleted all except Marcy Playground, who at least are a prominent band. I leave it to someone else to decide if they are grunge. -- Jmabel 18:02, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we need the definition of prominent pointed out for some editors. We keep on having obscure, unnotable bands added to the list. -- LGagnon 00:41, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)
Just seen an edit in Killdozer that claims they were a pioneer of grunge. Don't really know enough about grunge to say if its so, I'd guess they were happy in their hardcore punk niche. Opinions? ---- Charles Stewart 17:13, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Same anon who recently re-added Sonic Youth (which I removed again) also added the Pixies. I think of them more as a precursor than as part of the grunge contingent. I think they should be mentioned, but in the same place we mention others who anticipated or influenced grunge, rather than listed as a grunge band. Other thoughts? -- Jmabel 18:22, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Marcy Playground is definitely not grunge. Their musical style doesn't fit the genre and they formed a couple of years after the popularity of grunge had subsided. -- Bumhoolery 15:15 28 October 2004
The Smashing Pumpkins were recently and anonymously added to article as grunge "mainstays". Good band, like 'em, guess they are about the right period, but I never really thought of them as grunge. What do others think? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:55, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Would someone else take a look at the recent edits by User:24.13.183.57? They don't look to me to be on the mark, but I'm hesitant to roll them back without a second opinion. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:56, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
I had to changed W.A.S.P. to Brittany Fox and Lillian Axe who were more superficial rock bands heavily pushed by large record industries to sell sex, hair, and style over music substance. People have to be careful when they step into the Heavy Metal area because we suffered along time in the 80’s not getting any of our music EVER played on radio stations and barely even today, unlike grunge. If you look at bands like ACDC, (The Razors Edge), Iron Maiden (No Prayer for the dying), Megadeth (Rust in Piece) and even W.A.S.P. this was not the case since they always stuck to their roots and actually got allot more fluid in their music approaches in the later 80’s allowing then to jam more and not be super-strict to a riff pattern. I’m not so sure that this looser style was pushed by grunge although I am willing to debate weather Alternative Rock helped influence more jamming. This more “earthy” play-style might have been influenced by Guns and Roses in 1988 since they were a Hard Rock band who mixed the genres well and jammed pretty good. Flannels Ripped Jeans and Leather Jackets were always contained with-in the Heavy Metal underground or even realms into Def Lepord. If it wasn’t for this the entire 80’s would have been a synth-pop nightmare if it wasn’t already. I might credit grunge for bringing bands like Black Sabbath, who had their stuff in bargain bins for years, to the mainstream though. Honestly, there was allot of Alternative Rock junk out there that was just as guilty. I think what happened is all the good bands from all genres started to open their sounds up more and jam and stay true to their music roots and that’s what is allowing a good musical comeback today in the industry. If you stay pure it always works. I just wouldn’t credit Grunge as the only band that wore these cloths and did these styles. It’s not true. Check out W.A.S.P.’s website. Their new stuff is real good and pure. http://www.waspnation.com/
Wasn’t Axel Rose wearing his trademark orange flannel well before Cobain or I might be wrong?
That’s a bunch of media hype. Alls this does is contribute to the hype the film Hype! brought out in 1996 to stop grunge from being considered the greatest form of music and some sort of perfect music type. There is no reason to pummel Heavy Metal as Heavy Metal doesn’t pummel grunge but cheesy pop bands. Meaning, bands that use style over musicianship. To call W.A.S.P. fake is childish. Listen to their music and it’s some of the most well written music of its time and today, regardless of weather you like it or not. Lillian Axe and the like where immensely popular for their short lived times at the time and that’s what should be gotten rid off; short lived phony rock. Grunge brought Alt Rock to the mainstream and they did it by blending genres.
That’s Ok that you don’t like Heavy Metal. but why is this a part of the grunge page? Does being involved in the grunge scene automatically mean you have to hate Heavy Metal? Most Heavy Metal dudes I know like grunge including me and we don’t pummel grunge on the Heavy Metal page. If you look at this grunge page and the Alternative Rock page they both state grunge barrowed heavily from thrash metal and heavy metal. This includes: Flannels, ripped jeans, and dark florescent colors like the cover of pearl jam’s ten as well as the heavy “superficial” riffs and all of the drugs and other stuff. I think the expensive designer clothing your talking about is more from POP music I don’t see how GnR wore expensive designer stuff regarding the fact that they wore ripped jeans and basic t-shirts on stage in the 80’s. W.A.S.P. is not total “Shock Rock” That’s more Metallica and Slayer Nirvana didn’t have Shock Rock elements like all the screaming and instrument bashing? How is this not superficial? W.A.S.P. is not categorized as Hair Metal but Heavy Metal. Hair Metal is like Glam Rock and emphasizes ballads and looks, mainly. Wasp may have had poofy hair at times but so did Ozzy in the 80’s and both of them are Heavy Metal and some of the greatest musicians of all time.
I changed the W.A.S.P. and GnR to two hair metals bands popular in the late 80s/ early 90s. W.A.S.P. was a cheesy metal band, but not a hair metal band, and they were never terribly popular. And why the hell would someone who is making the argument that grunge "killed" hair metal mention GnR, who had massive hits at the peak of grunges popularity? And who weren't hair metal? -- 65.207.129.252
Someone recently and anonymously added to the lead paragraph, "The origin of the term "grunge", as used in this context, is unclear, but many believe Seattle rock critic Veronika Kalmar was the first writer to use the term on a regular basis." I find this very unlikely: Google gives only 13 hits for "Veronika Kalmar" + "grunge", though I suppose that due to sites mirroring us it will soon give more. It probably doesn't help that the main place she published her criticism, Seattle's Rocket, is long gone, but still...
As far as I can tell, none of the pages Google finds make this assertion; some are just conicidences of an add for her book appearing on the same page as the word grunge. This is a topic likely to be much-discussed on line, so "many" is very suspect. Unless someone has a relevant citation, this clearly does not belong in the article. All due respect to Kalmar, she's been a very good writer especially on DIY culture and might deserve a Wikipedia article of her own, but this particular claim doesn't seem to pan out. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:52, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
Ok, since we've had the Foo Fighters removed from the prominent bands list over and over again, can we please just discuss this first before doing it again? -- [[User:LGagnon| LGagnon]] 00:53, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
I guess Candlebox is grunge; don't think any of the others are. Fine bands, from what I know of them, but grunge? I haven't heard enough of Babes in Toyland to say for sure, but I know 7 Year Bitch's music thoroughly and am pretty familiar with L7. 7 Year Bitch: right place, right time, overlapping social circles, very different sound. Very precise guitar and bass attack even if there is a lot of fuzz and distortion. Very original band, love 'em to death (so to speak), but grunge? L7: just being on Sub Pop isn't enough to make a grunge band!
As usual in these things I'll wait till at least one other person weighs in rather than reverting unilaterally. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:11, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
I talked to Clark Humphrey on this. His take:
He also remarked that post-1992, Mudhoney were the only major band that still embraced the word grunge. I guess that means:
It also means we should certainly drop 7 Year Bitch, and that BiT are hanging by a thread. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:31, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)
what do you think about nirvana?
I love the Fastbacks and all, but "evolved out of local punk bands like the Fastbacks?" They aren't particularly punk (like what punk band covers Queen and Mott the Hoople?) and they don't seem to me to have been particularly influential on grunge. If you want to single out a local band as an influence, I'd certainly pick the Melvins (who we already mention in a different context). What is the nature of the supposed influence? Just that Kurt Bloch uses distortion on his guitar? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:13, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)
Mad Season? One (good) album, lots of people who did notable work in other bands, but no hits that I recall, and only a few live gigs. Certainly far more reasonable that some that have been on the list in the past, but it really seems to be stretching things to call them one of the prominent grunge bands. Other opinions? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:33, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need this timeline? It takes up a lot of space and doesn't say much other than the lifespans of some bands (a few of which may be inaccurate) and categorizes them. The lifespans aren't really needed (that can go in the bands' own articles), and the rest of the info can be put into a few paragraphs. -- LGagnon 23:59, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need to support media hype with the "godfather of grunge" thing? That whole concept came from the media going nuts over Pearl Jam playing with Young; it wasn't even debated before the media made up the concept. I'm not even sure "widely debated" is accurate; not many people bother debating such a pointless concept. It would probably be better to just change the paragraph into one talking about Young as an influence on the genre rather than leaving it as it is. At the moment, it just seems like a weasely way to force an opinion that one person deserves to be put on a pedistal above all other grunge musicians. -- LGagnon 02:07, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I don't know who Cell is. I assume if they were that famous they'd have an article by now. I'm removing them from the list for now; if anyone has a good argument in their favor I'll put them back. -- LGagnon 19:16, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
From the article "Independent record labels, which used to rarely have success on level with major labels, were able to sell albums with equal or similar success as the major labels (most notably in the case of Epitaph Records)." Most notably? More notably than Sub Pop? Admittedly Sub Pop eventually sold out a 50% interest to a major, but how is Epitaph more notable? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:40, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
There are a lot of weasel words in the article, things like "most fans think", "many people said", stuff like that. Someone would well to look for the words "most" and "many" in the article and see what might need a citation vs. what is so blatantly true as to deserve outright assertion, but it's time to go weasel-hunting. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:43, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Somebody added a new article on this as well as a paragraph on it to this article. However, I have found no information whatsoever on this genre that the submitter mentions. Without any proof, it doesn't sound too authentic to me. Until we've got some concrete proof, I think this should be removed. -- LGagnon 19:00, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)
And now we have grunge metal. Cite some sources people, because these look like dubious "genres" to me. -- LGagnon 00:49, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
grunge:"post-grunge"::heavy metal:"false metal"
get rid of it. (anon 6 May 2005)
Hey why got to put down ol' Neil? Maybe "Godfather of Grunge" is questionable, but there's no doubt he was one of the biggest antecedents, particularly for Cobain and Pearl Jam. The article should give this its due. JDG 18:56, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I understand alot of grunge followers don't count these two bands as "grunge" per se, but how can you include STP as one of the most prominent grunge bands at the bottom, when there is a contradiction in the middle paragraphs that say STP and Bush are NOT considered to be grunge, because they aren't from the Pacific NW?
A recent edit mentions Morrissey and The Smiths as influences on grunge. I haven't seen any such comparison before. Can we have some proof of this? Just because one person thinks they sound similar doesn't mean they are an influence. -- LGagnon 17:12, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
We don't need to section every one or two paragraphs. This doesn't improve the readability; it just makes the article look ackward and oversectioned. Some of the new section names were very ambiguous too; the "Knock-on effect" one makes no sense, and "Beyond the Pacific Northwest" doesn't explain what is supposed to be beyond the Pacific Northwest. Additionally, new info added to the article was wrong. The part about grunge becoming a national success in the 90s was specifically about how it hadn't caught on in the US yet; remember, it was a British magazine that exposed it during the first wave of its popularity. And the media did not view grunge as being like the British punk of the 1970s; they saw it as another hippie culture. The media was (and to some degree still is) very Boomer-centric, and tried to see grunge through a Boomer point of view. I have reverted these changes, and I don't think we should bother reverting them again without any discussion. -- LGagnon 15:47, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Can the person who added Loser: The Real Seattle Music Story to the references section please add a citation for it? It kind of looks out of place without one, and it would be nice to know what info originates from it. -- LGagnon July 6, 2005 19:55 (UTC)
Do we really need a new template for the genre box? It's only used here, and the other article it is linked to ( Post-grunge music) is innapropriate for this album box (it should have its own). -- LGagnon 03:39, July 17, 2005 (UTC)