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Although I asked Emt147 ( talk · contribs) not to removes this quote from the introduction, I thought I'd include it here too:
66.167.139.50 19:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC).
Adm. Michael Mullen, Chief of Naval Operations, commented on the plane in an interview held at the time of its retirement: [1]
“ | There's something about the way an F-14 looks, something about the way it carries itself. It screams toughness. Look down on a carrier flight deck and see one of them sitting there, and you just know, there's a fighter plane. I really believe the Tomcat will be remembered in much the same way as other legendary aircraft, like the Corsair, the Mustang and the Spitfire. | ” |
This is in gross violation of WP:NPOV. Claims made by one man are given undue weight and are clearly used by the anonymous user to advance his or her giddy fanboyism of the aircraft. I will continue to revert this addition mercilessly -- if you think it belongs, call for an arbitration now. - Emt147 Burninate! 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Before I get all the "wtf dude" replies, here are some quotes from the aforementioned Wikipedia policy article:
Putting a giant quote banner at the top of the article is an obvious violation of this policy, particularly since the quote reflects biased opinions and beliefs of one person that are not substantiated by hard facts. - Emt147 Burninate! 00:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Anyone? The burden of proof on Wikipedia lies with the contributing editor. Therefore, YOU are the one who has to prove Mullen's claims of legendary status (how's that time machine coming along?). Do you honestly believe that offset raving text in HUGE quotation marks does not carry undue weight?
Oh, and brilliant. Let's start a separate article quoting every semi-important person about the F-14. Regardless of who Mullen is (and with all due respect to him), his quote still represents one man's totally subjective opinion not substantiated in any way by hard facts. If Mullen personally showed up and edited the article, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because his quote would violate WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR. But since it's in quotation marks, it's magically okay. Besides, the quotation is entirely un-encyclopedic -- it contributes nothing whatsoever to the reader's knowledge of the F-14 other than the fact that it apparently makes grown men giddy. - Emt147 Burninate! 03:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
One compromise w.r.t. the CNO quote would be to move it to the section on decommissioning (and leave out the {{ cquote}} in the process). Locating the quote in that section puts it in perspective (i.e. the CNO made the statement at that time). Comments? 66.167.141.36 10:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC).
There is a difference between a fact an an opinion. "John Doe is the best baseball player" can be a fact. "F-14 will be remembered like the Spitfire" cannot be.
No fanboyism. CNO is not an oracle, he has no way of knowing how the F-14 will be remembered. This is a PR quote of no encyclopedic value and I will revert it. If you disagree, call arbitration. This conversation is over. - Emt147 Burninate! 18:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV by virtue of undue weight and WP:Verify by virtue of being a source of dubious reliability. Per Wikipedia policy, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight (furthermore, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves). - Emt147 Burninate! 23:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Come now, there's a world of difference between anime crap and quotes from the senior serving officer of the primary user of the aircraft in question. One would not remove a quote about the B-52 made by Curtiss LeMay. Or would you? Yes, it's saccharine, but no it's not worth all this vitriol. The Admiral has earned the right to make such statements. I suggest the quote by moved someplace like the popular culture section, since it refers directly to the position the Tomcat holds in popular culture and memory.
Oh hell, three quarters of wikipedia is of little encyclopedic value. Tis best to tuck it away somewhere and move on. Anyone who reads that quote and doesn't see it as the man's opinion is too stupid to worry with anyhow.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.181.12.201 ( talk • contribs) .
It would be more useful to discuss the 6+ paragraphs of Iranian air force material that is currently over weighting this article. A user of 11% of the aircraft built, look at that section size compared to the entirety of the article. The US had 30 years of usage, 30+ squadrons, 600+ aircraft, but we use 6 paragraphs to document the entire Iranian purchase agreement, how many planes missiles and wrenches, who trained whom, who overthrew who, who sabotaged what missiles or maybe didn't, speculative kill numbers etc. There is less material in this article about the actual US R&D, testing, construction, etc. All the origins section says is the F-111B sucks, F-14 is better with most powerful radar in the universe and it was controversially replaced by the Hornet even though the F-14 was the first/best air superiority aircraft or maybe not. It's more worthwhile to trim that section than to put a 64 word quote from the CNO for the aircraft's retirement. And what about the reference section, with its 10 refs, 4 of which are Tom Cooper. Someone must be trying to sell some of his books. I guess what I'm trying to say is the article needs work and we should be discussing that instead of one single quote from one man. -- Dual Freq 23:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Somewhat related comment. Currently there's a subsection under Operational history labeled About. I believe it was labeled Hi lo before. Something more descriptive would be good. I'm just not sure what it should be called since contains the Superhornet and Decommissioning subsections. - Fnlayson 16:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I've prosified the pop culture section. Hopefully that will reduce the urge to add bullet point after bullet point of various types of cruft. I also removed some of the more obvious trivia from the Iranian AF section and requested citations for some of the material presented as fact. It still seems long. I've also trimmed the ref section. If I've removed too much, just add the reference to the appropriate location in the text. We don't need a long list of books that may or may not actually be references. I've merged the sections Hi Lo / about, but it still seems wrong. Still much work to be done, I'm no Shakespeare. -- Dual Freq 02:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Dual Freq has already wittled down the Pop Culture section to almost nothing, as per the guideline's recommentations in lieu of immediate deletion of trivia sections. The two movie references both feature significant use of the F-14, and are worth mentioning somewhere in the article. Currently, there are many more avitation articles containing much longer lists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillCJ ( talk • contribs) Oops. Thought I had signed it. Thanks -- BillCJ 03:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed some of the minor details of the Macross info, what we really need here is for someone to sort through the History of the F-14 Tomcat article for information, remove the NPOV stuff and re-add it here to replace the origins section with something more useful. I've been adding images to commons:Category:F-14 Tomcat for VF articles, maybe some of them are useful here as well. -- Dual Freq 02:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, thanks for reworking the origins section, still small compared to the Iranian F-14 historical section. That section seems too big, but I don't know what to get rid of. Some of it seems to be decent historical trivia, though uncited, but it seems way too long for a generic F-14 article. Also, I was adding images to the VF articles and I noticed that two squadrons were disbanded September 11, 1994, has someone told those loose change guys? -- Dual Freq 02:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about the following lines in the article: Most Iranian F-14 pilots and technicians trained in the U.S. fled Iran, fearing their association with the Shah's regime, and their time in the U.S. would endanger them. Only two pilots out of the original flight class chose to remain in Iran. Their fears proved correct, and many of the original Iranian F-14 crews and technicians who remained were jailed or murdered by the new regime. Eventually, several F-14 pilots who were jailed were released when war broke out with Iraq. My main question is if only two pilots stayed, how can "many of the original" crews have been murdered or jailed? How many could there have been? This probably came from the Cooper source, can someone clarify this? -- Dual Freq 02:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Answer: if you are interested about Iranian F-14s (and air combat in general) vist ACIG.org. There aren't many reliable sources about Iran's F-14s due to a lack of credible sources, you would be amazed at the wealth of knowledge, photographs out there and the etiquette of the contributors at ACIG. I'm not sure but I get the slight feeling that some here do not respect Tom Cooper's insight on Iran's F-14 fleet. I would suggest you ask him yourself. I found early on that popular sources lack any clear insight on Iran's Air Force. I also found that most western sources don't want to believe that Iran could even fly the plane let alone use the AIM-54 to score a kill, even if their pilots were trained by the US Navy. Even less want to believe that Iran scored more air victories with the F-14 than their US Navy counterparts. The USN had far fewer oppurtunities, obviously.
I think there is a reason Iran continues to maintain, fly and update their F-14 fleet at great expense and it is not because of the "4 or 5" kills that this wiki article cites. Just try to balance both points of view; Iran's F-14s were largely ineffective in air-to-air engagements and simply used as mini-AWACs or Iran's F-14s were integral to the defense of vital locations and population centers from Iraqi incursions and are still operated with great care and expense. Do not simply go by the quantity of sources that say one thing, as they will often just cite eachother.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.61.73 on 01:26, November 20, 2006 (UTC)
Re: Credible according to who, the "western sources" who attribute "4 or 5" kills to IRIAF's F-14? Saddam's IrAF had 700 planes by war's end, none of these had BVR capabilities or a radar equivalent to the AWG-9. I will choose a published account over the "4 or 5" theory. just my 2 cents —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.61.73 ( talk • contribs)
I report by ACIG sites stuff like this: At around 10:40hrs, at 12.200m (40,000ft) and only eight kilometres from the Iranian border, two IRIAF F-4Es underway to attack targets in Iraq, were approaching a Boeing 707-3J9C-tanker escorted by two F-14As, led by Capt. M. Khosrodad. The Tomcats were flying a race-track pattern around the tanker, with one of them continuously scanning the airspace over the front by its AWG-9 radar. Around 10:45hrs, just as the first Phantom started receiving fuel from the tanker, the radar onboard Capt. Khosrodad’s F-14A acquired several Iraqi fighters apparently closing from the west and well within the range of the AIM-54 missiles of his Tomcat.
Despite the standing order not to fly into the Iraqi airspace or leave the tanker unprotected, Capt. Khosrodad decided to attack: he ordered his wingman, whose aircraft was only armed with Sparrows and Sidewinders, to remain with the Boeing and the two Phantoms; then Capt. Khosrodad headed off west.
Working swiftly, he and his RIO fired two AIM-54As and two AIM-7E-4s in rapid succession, and both were most pleased when they noticed that at least two of their radar contacts disappeared within seconds of each other: apparently, so they thought, they had just spoiled ‘another Iraqi air raid’….or so they thought.
Meanwhile, although their radar net was supposedly able to track aircraft up to 200km deep inside the Iranian airspace, the Iraqis were completely unaware of the two Iranian Tomcats nearby. The first sign of something going wrong for Capt. Mousa was when the pilot of one of the escorting Mi-8s – which was flying a couple of kilometres ahead - shouted out a warning that no less than three of escorting fighters (or what was left of them) were falling out of the skies in flame to their left and right, and that the helicopter carrying generals should make a hard right turn in order to evade the debris.
Seconds later, also one of the MiG-pilots started shouting warnings, saying that they had no clue what had attacked them, but “strongly” suggested the Mi-8 with the generals onboard to leave the area and immediately turn west! Seeing the wreckage of the downed MiGs falling towards him, Capt. Mousa was in a complete agreement with his colleagues, so he turned around, and the trip to the front by Maj. Gen. Rashid and Lt. Gen. Mohsen was over before it really started.
So this example, believe or not in it ( [1] ) is in cleary and definite contrast vs the claim '4-5fighters' made in West. Tom Cooper is a liar? Perhaps, but where are the proofs of his babbling? But there is a reason also for the low number declared by Iranians as well: Cooper says, IRIAF was always put on trial because his men were too westernized, so hated by regime. In many occasions, flak of Army was taken on charge about these success: better the army than ariforce, do you understand me? -- Stefanomencarelli 15:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
See below--- Stefanomencarelli 16:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
The US Air Force was looking for to replace the F-106 Delta Dart, {the plane used to guard the USA against bomber attack], in the early 1980s. The USAF briefly considered the F-14 Tomcat, but, although the Air Force had adopted Navy planes in the past, i.e. the A-1 Skyraider and the A-7 Corsair II; the F-15 Eagle was selected to replace the F-106. It was felt the F-14 was too expensive to be picked, ($38 million for the Tomcat vs. $29.9 million for the Eagle). 204.80.61.10 20:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk
This was placed in the introduction today. Given that the source is billed as the official IIAF website (with no cite to the quoted article), I feel it needs review. It certainly doesn't go in the Introduction, especially as written, but I don't know where else to put it either. Most likely, somewhere on the History of the F-14 Tomcat page.
As far as to the validity of the reports, is this talking about something beyond Iran's payments for the F-14 they purchased? It makes it sound like they were partners in the development, which I have never heard about. It is common in US programs now, such as the JSF and the P-8, but not so much back then, to my knowledge.
Any comments/suggestions? - BillCJ 03:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Here it is from a US source as reported by J Baugher
[2]:
In August of 1973, the Shah selected the F-14 Tomcat, and the sale was approved by the US government in November of 1973. The initial order signed in January of 1974 covered 30 Tomcats, but in June 50 more were added to the contract. At the same time, the Iranian government-owned Melli Bank agreed to loan Grumman $75 million to partially make up for a US government loan of $200 to Grumman which had just been cancelled. This loan enabled Grumman to secure a further loan of $125 from a consortium of American banks, ensuring at least for the moment that the F-14 program would continue.
So I wouldn't say a significant amount of funding was for the "development" of the Tomcat as that the initial nonrecurring development was paid for by the US Navy as by the time the additional funding was needed, the Tomcat was already in production (around Lot 5 or 6 according to excellent oral history of George Spangenburg) and suffering from cost escalation and need to fix all manner of issues witht he Tomcat that threatened to drive Grumman under hence the need for the loan. At any rate, they were certainly NOT partners in the development as evidenced by the example of today's JSF or the Kuwaiti support of the improved engines for their A-4KU and later F/A-18C aircraft. They bought Tomcats right off the production line with only minor differences between their versions and the then current Navy model. Good question though. HJ 21:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
How should it be organized? Alphabetical order by museum, location? By BuNos? Kyuusei 22:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that the Quonset Air Museum in Rhode Island has a F-14A which is freshly painted in VF-101 Grim Reapers colors.
I'm not questiong that the F-14 is in Red Storm Rising, as I remember it being there when I read the book years ago. But Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate lists. Per WP:AIR/PC#Popular culture, Pop culture sections should be limited to the appearances are especially notable. To be included, the notability must be proven by verifiable sources. Without sources, the statements regarding the F-14 and its importance in the book are original research, and therefore not permitted in Wikipedia. I don't doubt that Red Storm Rising is used in military schools, but the book covers many other types of aircraft and varios other equipmant. Claiming the F-14's appearence in the book as "especially notable" requires verifiable soureces. PIf those can be provided to the satisfaction of other editors here, and a consensus reached to include the book, then fine. Until then, please refrain from inserting the appearance. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I've renamed this section from "Imperial Iranian Air Force / Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force" to "Iranian air forces" (note lower case on air forces). I did this before and got a knee jerk revert calling it vandalism. I think it is unneccassary and unencyclopedic to have the longer section label. - Fnlayson 15:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that's correct, because the Military of Iran also has the IRGC Air Force, which does not operate the F-14. -- Eurocopter tigre 16:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/02/shredding.tomcats.ap/index.html
Pentagon shreds F-14s to keep parts from enemies
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A mechanical monster grabs the F-14 fighter jet and chews through one wing and then another, ripping off the Tomcat's appendages before moving on to its guts. Finally, all that's left is a pile of shredded rubble -- like scraps from a Thanksgiving turkey.
...
The Pratt and Whitney F100/F401 engines were developed for the Air Force and Navy team until the Navy dropped out according to my F-15 Davies book. They were slightly different versions of the same engine. One version had slightly better performance and the other was easier to maintain, I think. Anyway, what the article says now matches my reference. - Fnlayson 18:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
My book says the F100/F401 contract was awarded to P&W in 1970. The AF and Navy formed a Joint Engine Project Office to coordinate their different requirements. The Navy wanted more thrust and the AF wanted less frequent overhauls and could deal with less thrust. Testing ran a few months late due to a turbine failure. The Navy cut back its order and problems arose. The Navy canceled its order for F401s in 1971 and dropped out. With the Navy requirements gone, they switched to an advanced aerodynamic compressor (was too heavy for Navy). The new compressor handled performance problems and deficiencies. - Fnlayson 03:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restored all the three links to Acig site. Obviousely, all these were deleted because some guys are still acting thinking that all the stuff not ufficial by US Navy is no good enough to be here. Regardless that these materials are widely discussed in acig and other sites, regardless that T.Cooper has written several books about, regardless that the logic simply suggest, that seen F-14s are still in service NOW, then 20 years ago obviousely Iran had still some in flyable conditions. BUT, since wikipedia has 'decided' that Cooper don't speak true, then he is cutted out from any articles about F-14 or whetever else. I find this simply unaccetable, but this is not my problem, is of those have still and still decided to ignore all Cooper had wrote about
(from acig site, Persian cat's article). -- Stefanomencarelli 22:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Not US junk? And when, of grace, will be considered by the grate Wikipedia that over US exists also other sources 'reliable' about something? Here is made what needs to an enciclopedic article or just to what US Gov. liked to be done?-- Stefanomencarelli 22:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Apart that i don't found 'fair' that someone choises to prone some links, and casually, all acig. i would inform you that if there is a site that has the capabilities to give good info and also discuss them it is Acig without any doubt, surely not the Mats home. There are not many sites that have both a forum and a webmaster that is a book autor, or?
Second, someone (Billbc) has whipped out my contributions about the tecnical description of F-14. This is not an excuse in any sense. I gave a overall description about all the aircraft. If someone found that it's unusual, futile or so on, it' his problem not mine. The works about aircrafts that i usually read (made by professionists like N.Sgarlato or A.Nativi) are composed of these four parts: origins, tecnical, versions, operativity. This make readable and well armonized an article, so it's not guilth of mine if the F-14s one have not a tecnical description. If you get a look to the stuff i have wrote all it's reparted in this manner, so i expects, that if one wants really improve an aircraft article, and F-14 is a class apart, he must point to the tecnology. If there is a 'design' section without any detailed description, then do not make a guilth to me that try to post it. You can improve what i have wrote, correct, rearranged, but delete it it's not definively an 'improvement' for the article, it's vandalize it. It's not because i wrote it, it's because the article need that section as hell, F-14 is an universe to describe just for tecnology used. So i invite you to improve that i wrote, but not delete it for funny reasons.-- Stefanomencarelli 15:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The following was placed on the talk page for NOR. It does not belong there ... I imagine it belongs here, or on the Iraq War talk page.
Right.
I found instead that there is such 'silence conspiration'. The fact, what happens here in the page, speaks alone.
Recent books by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop seem to suggest that the Iranian use of the Tomcat might have been more effective than had been previously reported. These books report that during the Iran-Iraq war Iranian Tomcat crews scored numerous AIM-54 kills, that there were several Tomcat aces with over 8 kills, and that there were over 100 total victory claims. (from Joe Baughet site, another illuse that believes in Cooper Claims enough to post them).
Now to your comments:
but the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the person questioning the data. Anyone can make a website and put up claims, but they need to be verifiable to be used as a reference.
LOL-With the same thinking, i would not believe in the Men on the moon, in the Holocaust, in the 11 september, and so on. But in every cases, there are not reasons to exclude his works about F-14 if not a clear case of genuine censorship. And you still not give me the reasons about that. Even the greatest historians have made herrors, lies and so on: there is not any sources sure 100%, Wikipedia has tons of pages about gods, goddeness, Silence conspiracies, etc. etc. But look, just T.Cooper is a 'non reliable source'. And this is due to what? To your judments obviousely. So i talk cleary to you and those like you: this is censorship and nothing else, a ridicolous one, a shamelessy one.-- Stefanomencarelli 17:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
"The F-14 suffered its only loss from enemy action on 21 January 1991 when b/n 161430, an F-14A upgraded to an F-14A+, from VF-103 was shot down by an SA-2 surface-to-air missile...."
Mmmk so I guess this isn't all that specific, but the Mirage F1 article states that two other Iranian F-14's were shot down by Iraqi Mirages during the Iran-Iraq war. Doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else in the article either, so I think someone should add it Masterblooregard 18:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but the list of F-14 losses (2-3 to Mirages and one to MiG) is from Acig.org, that is obviousely 'dislaked' in wiki.en.-- Stefanomencarelli 11:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I noticed that Stefanomencarelli added a very extensive "Technical Description" section. While I appreciate the level of detail and depth this section brings to the article, I noticed there are some grammar and organizational issues with the section as is. To that end, I submit for your consideration this version of the Technical Description section, below. I used Stefanomencarelli's version as a base and moved, added, and deleted some information.
The F-14's fuselage consists primarily of a large flat section, called the "pancake", the forward fuselage section ahead of the "pancake", and two engine pods below it. This "pancake" forms a flat deck between the two engine pods at the rear, and extends forward where it smoothly transitions into the forward fuselage pod, which houses the cockpit, radar and avionics, among other systems, as well as a retractable in-flight refueling probe. The flat deck allows space for weapons underneath, and contains integral fuel tanks. At the extreme aft end of the "pancake" deck, called the "beavertail", there are speedbrakes on the upper and lower surfaces, and an arrestor hook beneath the beavertail, as well as a fuel dump pipe inside the beavertail.
Each engine pod houses one engine at the extreme aft of the pod. At the front, each pod has a rectangular, highly swept back air intake. These intakes stand off the central fuselage enough so that complex splitters are not needed, as on other aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom. Inside each intake are a series of movable ramps that help to regulate the airflow into each engine, keeping it below subsonic speeds and keeping shockwaves from reaching the engine. Atop the intakes are bleed doors that alternately allow extra air into the engines (such as during takeoff) or allow excess air to bleed away. The intakes are angled outward from top to bottom when viewed from the front.
Extending outboard of each engine pod is a wing glove, which houses the variable-sweep wing mechanism and structure. These wing gloves form a diamond shape when viewed from above. Inside these gloves is a massive wing carry-through box, formed of titanium alloy. This carry-through box has the pivots for the variable sweep wing sections at each end. This carry-through box also contains integral fuel tanks. The glove vane provides hardpoints for missile pylons and launchers.
Attached to this carry-through box are the outer, swinging, wing sections. Each wing is of dual-spar construction, with fuel tanks between the spars. Attached to the trailing edge of the wing are flaps which extend the full span of the trailing edge. Slats span the entire leading edge, and spoilers are situated on the wing upper surface. These flaps and slats can be moved under the command of the central air-data computer to provide increased lift during maneuvering (early aircraft, before Block 90, had manual control only). There are no ailerons; roll control is provided by the spoilers and the all-moving horizontal tail. At wing sweep angles greater than 57°, the spoilers are locked down, and roll control is provided solely by the horizontal tail. Also, during carrier approaches, the spoilers are used as part of the Direct Lift Control (DLC) system, which, when engaged, causes the spoilers to extend slightly. When extra lift is required, the spoilers fully retract, providing lift without requiring changes in attitude.
The wing sweep angle is controlled by a AiResearch CP-1166B/A central air data computer (ADC), which calculates the optimum wing sweep based on speed and other conditions. It also controls the air intake geometry and maneuvering flap/slat positions. At takeoff and landing, the wings are set at their full forward position, which gives a 20° wing sweep. As speed increases, the wings are swung aft by actuators under the control of the ADC, until full wing sweep (68°) is achieved for high-speed flight. The ADC can, of course, be overridden by the pilot in emergencies. On the ground, the wings can be overswept to 75°, which reduces the space needed for carrier stowage and eliminates the need for folding wings. Throughout the wing sweep range, an aerodynamic seal between the wing and the part of the fuselage it swings over is maintained by inflatable canvas bags that are coated with Teflon to reduce friction. These bags inflate to fill the gap when the wings are swept forward.
Inside each of the wing gloves is a triangular glove vane. These were originally designed to aid stability at supersonic speeds; however in practice they provided marginal benefit and added weight and complexity. In the field they were locked shut and their actuators removed, and later build Tomcats were built without them.
Atop the aft section of each engine pod is a vertical stabilizer. The original Grumman design featured a single tail, but this was changed to the twin-tail arrangement at the request of the Navy. The twin tails each have conventional rudders and provide better yaw control, increased survivability (allowing for continued flight if one tail is damaged), and reduced height for carrier storage.
On the outboard side of each engine pod is an all-flying horizontal stabilizer. There are no separate elevators; the entire stabilizer moves on a pivot. The two stabilizers can move in the same direction for pitch control, as well as in different directions for roll control. These stabilizers are constructed primarily of boron composite, with aluminium leading and trailing edge and tip parts.
The flight controls are mechanical, using rods, cables and springs, among other devices. There is no fly-by-wire or artificial stability system, but there was an analog stability augmentation system which was intended to improve control. This was not effective, and in the late 1990s to early 2001 a new Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) was developed and installed fleet-wide. The DFCS improved handling and provided protection from unrecoverable flat spins (a notorious and dangerous flight characteristic of the Tomcat).
The pilot and Radar Intercept Officer (RIO, colloquially known as the "Guy in the Back Seat") are seated in either Martin-Baker GRU-7A (F-14A/B) or Martin-Baker SJU-17 NACES (F-14D) ejection seats. The crew is arranged in a tandem, one-behind-the-other, arrangement, which provides less drag than a side-by-side arrangement. The crew is covered by a large canopy that provides good all-around visibility.
The F-14A (the first version) was powered by two Pratt & Whitney TF30 afterburning turbofan engines. At the exhaust end of the engine there are variable exhaust nozzles, which slide fore and aft to open or close the nozzle opening, respectively. These engines were not intended for a fighter like the F-14, were underpowered, finicky, and especially susceptible to compressor stalls and blade failures. More detail on these problems can be found in "Upgrades", below. The later F-14B and F-14D models were fitted with much more reliable, more powerful and less temperamental General Electric F110 engines.
The F-14 has a tricycle landing gear, with a twin-wheel nose gear strut in the forward fuselage and single-wheel main gear struts outboard of the engine pods. All gear struts retract forward; the main gear wheels rotate 90° to lie flat in the gear well.
The F-14 has a comprehensive suite of electronics for navigation, communications, electronic countermeasures (ECM)/jamming, and identification and targeting of enemy aircraft. The F-14A is equipped with a Hughes AN/AWG-9 radar and fire control system. This system is able to track 24 targets and attack six more targets with its Hughes AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. The system is also capable of looking down, to identify low-level targets. The later F-14D variant was equipped with an upgraded Hughes AN/APG-71 radar.
Beneath the nose of the F-14 are a variety of electronic chin pods, depending on variant. Early F-14As were equipped only with an electronic jamming pod, an AN/ALR-23 infrared (IR) seeker, or both. In practice, this IR seeker was ineffective and replaced on later F-14As and F-14Bs with a Northrop Television Camera System (TCS) which enabled long-range visual identification of targets. The later F-14D is equipped with a dual chin pod with the TCS and an IR seeker side-by-side.
Other avionics and on-board electronic systems include
The F-14 can be armed with a variety of weapons, including air-to-air missiles and bombs. The F-14 can be loaded with the following missiles:
There were plans to modify the F-14 to accept the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile, but these were scrapped by the US government.
The F-14 is also equipped with a 20 mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon for close-in dogfighting. It fires out of the port side of the forward fuselage looking forward, and contains 675 rounds.
The F-14 can also be used for precision guided and unguided bombing; see "Transformation" below.
Please tell me what you think, and if you think that this version should replace the current section. If you have comments or changes for me to make, please say so here as well! I am aware of the lack of references, wikilinks/external links, or sources, and will add them if/when it is decided to add this section to the article.
Thanks very much, Nick L. 10:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't find so 'good' such version. The part about electronic is whipped out, that's unaccettable for the F-14 description. The fuel system is lacking, unaccettable as well. When Bzuk will finish to magnificate every thing against my work, perhaps he also will see that this version is not complete and an overall worsement respect to the one now present. Dont' rely too much about 'language spelling issues' i know i am not of mother language, but i am not a moron as well()).-- Stefanomencarelli 20:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've made some changes to the section, mostly about the electronics. I've also seen to some of the sections that needed work, and removed the bolded text (seems like they've been fixed). Please comment. Also, I would like to know your opinions regarding the replacement of the section in the article with the above version. Thanks, Nick L. 04:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
A lot of interesting stuff, but a lot is also mentioned in several other places. There are lot of stuff missing, there are a different set of ejection seats in the F-14D, and the stuff about the Tomcat lacking multi funciton displays is just not right. With the additon of the LANTIRN in the 1990's, MFDs were added. The text is mainly about the F-14A. And the A-model must have had MFD's as well, at least the RIO, otherwise it would have been problematic due to the LANTIRN pod and the RIO must at least be able to select options and what not when using the LANTIRN and laser guided bombs.
The section about the engines are only in regard to the F-14A, nothing is deeply mentioned about the B and D. Hagman1983 14:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC) Hagman1983
Hi. I went through the section and copy edited it. I understand that there are plans to replace or rewrite the whole section, but the section in its current form was pretty much incomprehensible in places, so I thought it best to do something ASAP. There are also a lot of uncited statements. Regards Davidelit 06:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Uncited statements from Joe Baugher site. The word 'only' about internal fuel capability: are you aware how much is 9000 l.? Just to checking. There is no other western fighter capable to do so. So definitively 'only' is a wrong word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefanomencarelli ( talk • contribs) 10:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
--
Hope that's allright for the moment... Greetings, Andi 11:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
See my comments on your "talk" page. Better readabillity is a laudable goal considering the patched up mess this article that has resulted from recent edits but my question was over the use of the word "gear" which may not always mean "landing gear." BTW, get a proper userid so that your work is identified to a serious researcher. Also, use the four tilde (~) method to sign off the comments on talk pages. FWIW Bzuk 11:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC).
I think it just should be removed. It's too much, it's cumbersome to read, unnecessary information. You don't see the wiki-pages about the F-15, F-16 or the F/A-18 variants with such information. Remove it, the page will look more cleaner, better readability and it's too "technical" and a this page has turned into a total mess. Hagman1983 15:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Errr, if F-15/16/18 have not this 'over-unnecessary' info it's not a merit, it's because they are not enough deepth in description. You cannot delete tecnical description of F-14 except you want to have a drastically incomplete article about it. It's simply impossible make a good work without this info level, that is usually searched by aviation fans (the more interested to such articles).
Moreover: it's false that the tecnical description is already covering the whole avionics set. Just the main elements like the radar, but the list total is far more greater.
But the others are much more, over 40:
Radar: Hughes AWG-9, (later APG-71), APN-194 radar altimeter, DSQ-23 (Phoenix missiles)
If you don't like this part, there is not much problem (even if i think this should be in the article). There are sub-articles of F-14 tomcat, so the best thing could be simply to split the stuff in a dedicated article about the detailed, tecnical analysis and description of Tomcat. This aircraft is, among the many fighter, the most sofistied as tecnical and avionics, with ten aerodinamic surfaces and dozens avionic elements. Just think to Mirage III, that has only three fixed surfaces, one radar, one RWR and one radio-nav set. Almost a toy.
I propose: F-14 tecnical description.
Or History of the F-14 Tomcat, enlarged to tecnical analysis.-- Stefanomencarelli 20:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Uhmm, yeah, sorry. A seperate article would work of course. Hagman1983 13:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
So we agree?-- Stefanomencarelli 13:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I say no. Aircraft already has a few split off articles. There weren't enough F-14s made to justify more articles, imo. - Fnlayson 05:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the F-14 should not be split, but without a complete and extensive tecnical description the article loose greatly in deepth and for 'aviation fans' also in interest. I think that no F-14 article could be made without an extensive tecnical-avionic description, so i don't think that this is excessive. But if someone is interested to cut it a bit, this cannot be done removing the stuff. It must be done with the right solutions. So i'll remove the F-14 tecnical description and place it in History of F-14.-- Stefanomencarelli 18:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
So the famous duo Bill/Bzuk strike again. Every time you can make gratouitous provocations is good enough, huh? First, Bill, you have no really clue of what you are saying, unless you desire to make a second rate class article.
Second, the stuff to remove a simple prhase that claiming a clear attack against me made by Bzuk is unsupportable and illegal. I remark that in discussion pages there must be much care to 'remove' 'personal attacks' far from be proof. The only thing i can say for sure, is still that you two dear boys are still hers JUST to provocke me as mob. So, since while someone has deleted absolutely in a illegal manner my 'partial edit' to Bzuk, i not only contest this, but also remove the Bzuk statement itself, that was a clear and gratuoitus attack on my self.-- Stefanomencarelli 00:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
One, BE POLITE in discussions. Your kindly word should be keep away from this. Two:
Discussion page vandalism Blanking the posts of other users from talk pages other than your own, Wikipedia space, and other discussions, aside from removing internal spam, vandalism, etc., is generally considered vandalism. An obvious exception is moving posts to a proper place (e.g. protection requests to WP:RFPP). Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. Note: The above rules do not apply to a user's own talk page.
Since: Linking to external attacks or harassment for the purpose of attacking another editor. is considered a PERSONAL ATTACK, so Bzuk has made one against me, for the obvious purpuse to throw me discredit and surely this cannot be accepted in a CIVIL discussion.
So who is babbling about 'personal attacks' Huh?.-- Stefanomencarelli 09:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello Gents, I was lucky enough to pilot the F-14A with VF-1 on USS RANGER 1991-92, then the F-14D with VF-2 on USS CONSTELLATION 1993-1994. I enjoy your descriptions, and have two items to add.
First, the 'pancake' section of the fuselage (I've never heard it called that), being flat on the bottom and cambered on the top (between the heat exchanger vents) is actually a LIFTING BODY. This comes into play at high speed when the wings are swept and provide little lift. Its noteworthy that when the wings are swept, the wings spoilers are locked down and only the horizontal stabs provide roll.
Second, the reason for Cheney cancelling the F-14D is more simple than stated here. The airplane had huge downtime maintenance compared to the Hornet. For two-plane launches we almost always manned a third jet as a spare in case a Tomcat went down before launch. Hornet squadrons would seldom man spares, or would do so with just one spare per 4 or 6 Hornet launches. It always amused me to see our RIOs make elaborate, impassioned presentations during squadron meetings on how the Navy was blowing it by canceling the Tomcat instead of continuing upgrades. First, we squadron members of course have no say on the future of the program. Second, it made perfect sense to me to go with the newer F/A-18 E/F. I have friends who fly it and rave about how the 'bubble' expanded for them tactically.
The Tomcat was an iconic aircraft, a marvelous weapons platform and a real crowd pleaser at airshows. It was ahead of its time, and bridged the gap very well between the Phantom and the Hornet. Tbarn9 ( talk) 23:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LastCatshot.jpg
There is no F-14 located in Air & Space's national mall building. It is located in the Dulles annex. The Witch King 20:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the main article: Two Iranian F-14's and an F-4 are visible at Oibb Bushehr AB, Iran at these coordinates: 28°56′27″N 50°51′35″E / 28.9409°N 50.8596°E, 28°56′32″N 50°51′24″E / 28.9423°N 50.8566°E, and 28°56′27″N 50°51′14″E / 28.9409°N 50.8538°E, respectively. The images are a bit interesting since they don't appear to have the desert camo paint scheme I was expecting, more like the US paint scheme I think. The first two images. F-4 has the camo. -- Dual Freq 00:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC) Thats because they are repainting them in a new scheme (blue and matte brown) that fits the role better —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.73.173.88 ( talk) 08:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this really necessary? -- Mmx1 ( talk) 03:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Well this is my first time adding something, well I haven't added yet. Anyway I was in Hawaii and saw multiple Tomcats fly over more than once. I thought I would just throw this in because in the first section at the end it says that only some Islamic countries fly them, when this is untrue. I want to help keep this article as accurate as possible. From what I hear it is only flown by some reserve bases (US only). That's it. Stunta1350 July 25, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stunta1350 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
the clause 'all navy squadrons never got ----' is ambiguous at best. what the hell does that mean? not all navy squadrons got? no navy squadrons ever got. can't fix it myself cause i don't know what is meant. attention is needed. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 20:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't there some controversy over the retirement of the F-14? I think there should be some sort of mention of that. -- 74.232.40.83 ( talk) 20:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
four f-14's can be seen in Teheran! coordenates are, 35'42'15.90 N and 51'17'51.04 O google earth 213.73.171.102 ( talk) 22:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I am pretty certian that the F-14 is no longer in action.
kingpenguins —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingpenguins2007 ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
The article states that 13 aircraft were delivered before the overthrow of the Shah, then orders to the west were cancelled. It also says that Iran has 59 F-14's. 13 does NOT equal 59. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.215.122.27 ( talk) 03:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The ones they have currently flying I dare say would be inferior in comparison to the current US inventory. All the Tomcats the Shah inherited were sabotaged by outgoing Grumman technicians. Certain components were pulled from the aircraft and were made inoperable one way or another. Until this could be confirmed by visual inspection, caution is still advisable, but not overly done. Nighthawke75 20:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
That was almost 30 years ago, mate. Totally irrelevant rumour for todays Iran AF inventory of f-14s. Wikinegern ( talk) 12:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
did the marines not fly this plane? Toyokuni3 ( talk) 20:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
No, the USMC did not use the F-14. They retained F-4s until the F/A-18 enterd service. - BillCJ ( talk) 20:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
USMC were more interested in fighter/bombers than pure fighters the F-14 was. 20:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nighthawke75 ( talk • contribs)
Is the F-14 actually in service with the Iranian military or is it just in their possession? 72.83.108.191 ( talk) 18:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
They have roughly 1/3 to 1/4 of their original inventory to 75% combat capability. The outgoing Grumman techs saw to that by destroying certain avionics in the aircraft. They would be hard-pressed to take on modern aircraft. Nighthawke75 20:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the recent edits regarding the number of hardpoints, these two pictures show them all. I've also found a written source for it, but it does not mention wether or not the TARPS point is (or should considered to be) a seperate one or the same hardpoint as one of the missile points. Somehow I doubt if any source will mention it unless it's very in depth. But the number of points is clearly either 10 or 11 (unless the fuel points are not counted for some reason). - Berkoet ( talk) 23:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I know this was a very long time ago when this actually happened but the man who convinced the navy to go with the f14 not the F-111B was my great grandfather Robert Lee Townsend. He was a 3 star general in the navy and lost his chance of a 4th star by "burning" some higher ranked men who had invested in the F-111B. For those of you who read this and are very mature you will understand why my great grandfather decided not to fight for the credit of convincing the navy against Thomas Connolly. He thought it wasn't worth fighting for because he had better things to do then. He lived to be 102 when he died and i am his namesake. I am not like him though, he died with only family and probably a few friends and some Co-workers who knew the truth. But i can't stand that the credit of such a great decision was taken from him! I want to set the story right! I want the truth to be known! My great grandfather Robert Lee Towndsend was the man to fight long and hard to have the Navy use the F14 Tomcat instead of the F-111B not Thomas Connolly. There have always been men who would take the credit of others to get more "popular" or "impressive" but my question is how come he couldn't do it himself? Why did he have to take the credit from someone else? I cant stand men(or women) like that. Worthless bunch of fools who waste time then when they get nothing accomplished mooch off of others. Don't get me wrong im not saying that Thomas Connolly was completely like this, after all he was a 3 star general. All i want is that my great grandfather is given his due respect. He is dead now and made a large difference when he was alive. There isn't much on him on wikipedia but i am planning on making a page about him soon just need to gather alot more information. Just please change any mistakes about this fact in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertleespeers ( talk • contribs) 03:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I will try to find something but my dad is also in the military and he tells me that the files that can prove what i am saying are there...but they are in a sense "untouchable" but i talked to my dad and my grandmother(Robert Lee Townsend's daughter) and they told me everything...just if i could prove it....i will try..i just need time...and i am new at wikipedia so please gimme a bit of a break with all the reading and guidelines(theres tons!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertleespeers ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
F-14B 201 of VF-84 Jolly Rogers currently at the USS LEXINGTON Museum, Corpus Christi TX. No BuNo yet. Nighthawke75 ( talk) 19:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The F-22 Raptor interceptor had first flew in the 1990, but as the prototypes were well known at the time. F-22 Raptor is the 2nd most expensive military project after B2 Spirit. I think the funding migrated to the YF-22 Raptor project. A request for proposal (RFP) was issued in July 1986 Renegadeviking 05:50am 24 December, 2007 (CST)
I thought it was because the F-18 was going to be cheaper to maintain-- 68.199.113.247 ( talk) 18:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
In 1989 when the push to cancel the F-14D to began, all the stories I've skimmed seem to say it was an attempt to reduce the budget deficit, by favoring advanced aircraft of the future over newer versions of older aircraft. According to this quote, he wanted to modernize existing aircraft instead, to save money: "Our fleet of F-14 fighters could be modernized at a cost of $25 million each, Cheney said, but to keep production lines open in Long Island, N.Y., Congress has insisted the Pentagon buy completely new and updated F-14s at a cost of $50 million each. For the sake of jobs, not defense, this policy will cost the taxpayers an extra $1 billion over the next few years to modernize 30 percent fewer fighters." - Colorado Springs (Colo.) Gazette Telegraph, Aug. 5 and Sept. 20. (1989) -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Mr. Cheney has also decided not to produce a new version of the F-14 plane, instead converting older models, a saving of about $2.4 billion over the next five years." Cheney Defends Budget Decisions To Cut Some Weapon Programs MICHAEL R. GORDON. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Apr 26, 1989. pg. A.21 -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Pentagon officials have characterized the F-14 as 1960s technology. In budget recommendations to Congress, Cheney proposed stopping production of the Grumman plane and beginning the upgrade of 400 existing F-14s to the newer "D" configuration. Those remanufactured planes would be used until the successor aircraft - the Advanced Tactical Fighter - is available." Cheney Aims Barrage at F-14D Calls keeping jet a `jobs program'; By Stephanie Saul. Newsday Washington Bureau. Newsday. Long Island, N.Y.: Aug 24, 1989. pg. 06. --- That didn't exactly work out, Congress funded a couple years of F-14D's and spent less money on advanced projects than was requested. The Navy never got an ATF version, getting the Super Hornet instead. I don't think the fact that the Navy didn't get an ATF is Cheney's fault, though. At least not from reading 1989 articles about the 1990 budget fight. -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Super Tomcat designated the F-14D and not the F-14C? Vicarious Tendril ( talk) 04:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if there are specific passages/claims that have been identified in the Design section which need citations. The section is quite large and covers many different details. Without pointing out what's at issue, it will be very difficult for anyone to satisfy the one requesting verification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agsftw ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is speed quoted as 2.34? The aircraft is not a Mach 2 class aircraft. -- 99.235.15.225 ( talk) 19:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.
It's believed by some that the MiG-31's advanced, multi-plane tracking radar system was more or less a copy of the system in the F-14. Soviet/Russian military officials deny the claim but there is no denying that they are very similar. The rumor or claim is supported by the assertion that the Soviets either salvaged one off the bottom of the ocean that crashed off a carrier, or that Iran supplied them with one or maybe two of their F-14s in exchange for new weapons or other types of technical support. There are stories on various internet sites and at least one poor quality photo that I've seen of a former IIAF F-14A in the original three color desert camouflage pattern with Soviet style nose numbers and a red star on the tail. Of course it could be a manipulated photo. Does anyone know of any reliable sources that can either confirm or refute the rumor? ZeroSnake ( talk) 03:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is in good shape overall. But History of the F-14 Tomcat is in poor shape. Should some of that be merged/moved here or some other solution? - Fnlayson ( talk) 03:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking of using a table to list all the F-14 variants. I saw a similar variation of this on the Boeing 737 page, and I think it looked fantastic, and I think it's a good feature rather than just showing one variant AVKent882 ( talk) 17:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Although I asked Emt147 ( talk · contribs) not to removes this quote from the introduction, I thought I'd include it here too:
66.167.139.50 19:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC).
Adm. Michael Mullen, Chief of Naval Operations, commented on the plane in an interview held at the time of its retirement: [1]
“ | There's something about the way an F-14 looks, something about the way it carries itself. It screams toughness. Look down on a carrier flight deck and see one of them sitting there, and you just know, there's a fighter plane. I really believe the Tomcat will be remembered in much the same way as other legendary aircraft, like the Corsair, the Mustang and the Spitfire. | ” |
This is in gross violation of WP:NPOV. Claims made by one man are given undue weight and are clearly used by the anonymous user to advance his or her giddy fanboyism of the aircraft. I will continue to revert this addition mercilessly -- if you think it belongs, call for an arbitration now. - Emt147 Burninate! 23:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Before I get all the "wtf dude" replies, here are some quotes from the aforementioned Wikipedia policy article:
Putting a giant quote banner at the top of the article is an obvious violation of this policy, particularly since the quote reflects biased opinions and beliefs of one person that are not substantiated by hard facts. - Emt147 Burninate! 00:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Anyone? The burden of proof on Wikipedia lies with the contributing editor. Therefore, YOU are the one who has to prove Mullen's claims of legendary status (how's that time machine coming along?). Do you honestly believe that offset raving text in HUGE quotation marks does not carry undue weight?
Oh, and brilliant. Let's start a separate article quoting every semi-important person about the F-14. Regardless of who Mullen is (and with all due respect to him), his quote still represents one man's totally subjective opinion not substantiated in any way by hard facts. If Mullen personally showed up and edited the article, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because his quote would violate WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, and WP:NOR. But since it's in quotation marks, it's magically okay. Besides, the quotation is entirely un-encyclopedic -- it contributes nothing whatsoever to the reader's knowledge of the F-14 other than the fact that it apparently makes grown men giddy. - Emt147 Burninate! 03:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
One compromise w.r.t. the CNO quote would be to move it to the section on decommissioning (and leave out the {{ cquote}} in the process). Locating the quote in that section puts it in perspective (i.e. the CNO made the statement at that time). Comments? 66.167.141.36 10:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC).
There is a difference between a fact an an opinion. "John Doe is the best baseball player" can be a fact. "F-14 will be remembered like the Spitfire" cannot be.
No fanboyism. CNO is not an oracle, he has no way of knowing how the F-14 will be remembered. This is a PR quote of no encyclopedic value and I will revert it. If you disagree, call arbitration. This conversation is over. - Emt147 Burninate! 18:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV by virtue of undue weight and WP:Verify by virtue of being a source of dubious reliability. Per Wikipedia policy, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight (furthermore, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves). - Emt147 Burninate! 23:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Come now, there's a world of difference between anime crap and quotes from the senior serving officer of the primary user of the aircraft in question. One would not remove a quote about the B-52 made by Curtiss LeMay. Or would you? Yes, it's saccharine, but no it's not worth all this vitriol. The Admiral has earned the right to make such statements. I suggest the quote by moved someplace like the popular culture section, since it refers directly to the position the Tomcat holds in popular culture and memory.
Oh hell, three quarters of wikipedia is of little encyclopedic value. Tis best to tuck it away somewhere and move on. Anyone who reads that quote and doesn't see it as the man's opinion is too stupid to worry with anyhow.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.181.12.201 ( talk • contribs) .
It would be more useful to discuss the 6+ paragraphs of Iranian air force material that is currently over weighting this article. A user of 11% of the aircraft built, look at that section size compared to the entirety of the article. The US had 30 years of usage, 30+ squadrons, 600+ aircraft, but we use 6 paragraphs to document the entire Iranian purchase agreement, how many planes missiles and wrenches, who trained whom, who overthrew who, who sabotaged what missiles or maybe didn't, speculative kill numbers etc. There is less material in this article about the actual US R&D, testing, construction, etc. All the origins section says is the F-111B sucks, F-14 is better with most powerful radar in the universe and it was controversially replaced by the Hornet even though the F-14 was the first/best air superiority aircraft or maybe not. It's more worthwhile to trim that section than to put a 64 word quote from the CNO for the aircraft's retirement. And what about the reference section, with its 10 refs, 4 of which are Tom Cooper. Someone must be trying to sell some of his books. I guess what I'm trying to say is the article needs work and we should be discussing that instead of one single quote from one man. -- Dual Freq 23:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Somewhat related comment. Currently there's a subsection under Operational history labeled About. I believe it was labeled Hi lo before. Something more descriptive would be good. I'm just not sure what it should be called since contains the Superhornet and Decommissioning subsections. - Fnlayson 16:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I've prosified the pop culture section. Hopefully that will reduce the urge to add bullet point after bullet point of various types of cruft. I also removed some of the more obvious trivia from the Iranian AF section and requested citations for some of the material presented as fact. It still seems long. I've also trimmed the ref section. If I've removed too much, just add the reference to the appropriate location in the text. We don't need a long list of books that may or may not actually be references. I've merged the sections Hi Lo / about, but it still seems wrong. Still much work to be done, I'm no Shakespeare. -- Dual Freq 02:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Dual Freq has already wittled down the Pop Culture section to almost nothing, as per the guideline's recommentations in lieu of immediate deletion of trivia sections. The two movie references both feature significant use of the F-14, and are worth mentioning somewhere in the article. Currently, there are many more avitation articles containing much longer lists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillCJ ( talk • contribs) Oops. Thought I had signed it. Thanks -- BillCJ 03:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed some of the minor details of the Macross info, what we really need here is for someone to sort through the History of the F-14 Tomcat article for information, remove the NPOV stuff and re-add it here to replace the origins section with something more useful. I've been adding images to commons:Category:F-14 Tomcat for VF articles, maybe some of them are useful here as well. -- Dual Freq 02:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, thanks for reworking the origins section, still small compared to the Iranian F-14 historical section. That section seems too big, but I don't know what to get rid of. Some of it seems to be decent historical trivia, though uncited, but it seems way too long for a generic F-14 article. Also, I was adding images to the VF articles and I noticed that two squadrons were disbanded September 11, 1994, has someone told those loose change guys? -- Dual Freq 02:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about the following lines in the article: Most Iranian F-14 pilots and technicians trained in the U.S. fled Iran, fearing their association with the Shah's regime, and their time in the U.S. would endanger them. Only two pilots out of the original flight class chose to remain in Iran. Their fears proved correct, and many of the original Iranian F-14 crews and technicians who remained were jailed or murdered by the new regime. Eventually, several F-14 pilots who were jailed were released when war broke out with Iraq. My main question is if only two pilots stayed, how can "many of the original" crews have been murdered or jailed? How many could there have been? This probably came from the Cooper source, can someone clarify this? -- Dual Freq 02:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Answer: if you are interested about Iranian F-14s (and air combat in general) vist ACIG.org. There aren't many reliable sources about Iran's F-14s due to a lack of credible sources, you would be amazed at the wealth of knowledge, photographs out there and the etiquette of the contributors at ACIG. I'm not sure but I get the slight feeling that some here do not respect Tom Cooper's insight on Iran's F-14 fleet. I would suggest you ask him yourself. I found early on that popular sources lack any clear insight on Iran's Air Force. I also found that most western sources don't want to believe that Iran could even fly the plane let alone use the AIM-54 to score a kill, even if their pilots were trained by the US Navy. Even less want to believe that Iran scored more air victories with the F-14 than their US Navy counterparts. The USN had far fewer oppurtunities, obviously.
I think there is a reason Iran continues to maintain, fly and update their F-14 fleet at great expense and it is not because of the "4 or 5" kills that this wiki article cites. Just try to balance both points of view; Iran's F-14s were largely ineffective in air-to-air engagements and simply used as mini-AWACs or Iran's F-14s were integral to the defense of vital locations and population centers from Iraqi incursions and are still operated with great care and expense. Do not simply go by the quantity of sources that say one thing, as they will often just cite eachother.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.61.73 on 01:26, November 20, 2006 (UTC)
Re: Credible according to who, the "western sources" who attribute "4 or 5" kills to IRIAF's F-14? Saddam's IrAF had 700 planes by war's end, none of these had BVR capabilities or a radar equivalent to the AWG-9. I will choose a published account over the "4 or 5" theory. just my 2 cents —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.61.73 ( talk • contribs)
I report by ACIG sites stuff like this: At around 10:40hrs, at 12.200m (40,000ft) and only eight kilometres from the Iranian border, two IRIAF F-4Es underway to attack targets in Iraq, were approaching a Boeing 707-3J9C-tanker escorted by two F-14As, led by Capt. M. Khosrodad. The Tomcats were flying a race-track pattern around the tanker, with one of them continuously scanning the airspace over the front by its AWG-9 radar. Around 10:45hrs, just as the first Phantom started receiving fuel from the tanker, the radar onboard Capt. Khosrodad’s F-14A acquired several Iraqi fighters apparently closing from the west and well within the range of the AIM-54 missiles of his Tomcat.
Despite the standing order not to fly into the Iraqi airspace or leave the tanker unprotected, Capt. Khosrodad decided to attack: he ordered his wingman, whose aircraft was only armed with Sparrows and Sidewinders, to remain with the Boeing and the two Phantoms; then Capt. Khosrodad headed off west.
Working swiftly, he and his RIO fired two AIM-54As and two AIM-7E-4s in rapid succession, and both were most pleased when they noticed that at least two of their radar contacts disappeared within seconds of each other: apparently, so they thought, they had just spoiled ‘another Iraqi air raid’….or so they thought.
Meanwhile, although their radar net was supposedly able to track aircraft up to 200km deep inside the Iranian airspace, the Iraqis were completely unaware of the two Iranian Tomcats nearby. The first sign of something going wrong for Capt. Mousa was when the pilot of one of the escorting Mi-8s – which was flying a couple of kilometres ahead - shouted out a warning that no less than three of escorting fighters (or what was left of them) were falling out of the skies in flame to their left and right, and that the helicopter carrying generals should make a hard right turn in order to evade the debris.
Seconds later, also one of the MiG-pilots started shouting warnings, saying that they had no clue what had attacked them, but “strongly” suggested the Mi-8 with the generals onboard to leave the area and immediately turn west! Seeing the wreckage of the downed MiGs falling towards him, Capt. Mousa was in a complete agreement with his colleagues, so he turned around, and the trip to the front by Maj. Gen. Rashid and Lt. Gen. Mohsen was over before it really started.
So this example, believe or not in it ( [1] ) is in cleary and definite contrast vs the claim '4-5fighters' made in West. Tom Cooper is a liar? Perhaps, but where are the proofs of his babbling? But there is a reason also for the low number declared by Iranians as well: Cooper says, IRIAF was always put on trial because his men were too westernized, so hated by regime. In many occasions, flak of Army was taken on charge about these success: better the army than ariforce, do you understand me? -- Stefanomencarelli 15:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
See below--- Stefanomencarelli 16:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
The US Air Force was looking for to replace the F-106 Delta Dart, {the plane used to guard the USA against bomber attack], in the early 1980s. The USAF briefly considered the F-14 Tomcat, but, although the Air Force had adopted Navy planes in the past, i.e. the A-1 Skyraider and the A-7 Corsair II; the F-15 Eagle was selected to replace the F-106. It was felt the F-14 was too expensive to be picked, ($38 million for the Tomcat vs. $29.9 million for the Eagle). 204.80.61.10 20:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk
This was placed in the introduction today. Given that the source is billed as the official IIAF website (with no cite to the quoted article), I feel it needs review. It certainly doesn't go in the Introduction, especially as written, but I don't know where else to put it either. Most likely, somewhere on the History of the F-14 Tomcat page.
As far as to the validity of the reports, is this talking about something beyond Iran's payments for the F-14 they purchased? It makes it sound like they were partners in the development, which I have never heard about. It is common in US programs now, such as the JSF and the P-8, but not so much back then, to my knowledge.
Any comments/suggestions? - BillCJ 03:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Here it is from a US source as reported by J Baugher
[2]:
In August of 1973, the Shah selected the F-14 Tomcat, and the sale was approved by the US government in November of 1973. The initial order signed in January of 1974 covered 30 Tomcats, but in June 50 more were added to the contract. At the same time, the Iranian government-owned Melli Bank agreed to loan Grumman $75 million to partially make up for a US government loan of $200 to Grumman which had just been cancelled. This loan enabled Grumman to secure a further loan of $125 from a consortium of American banks, ensuring at least for the moment that the F-14 program would continue.
So I wouldn't say a significant amount of funding was for the "development" of the Tomcat as that the initial nonrecurring development was paid for by the US Navy as by the time the additional funding was needed, the Tomcat was already in production (around Lot 5 or 6 according to excellent oral history of George Spangenburg) and suffering from cost escalation and need to fix all manner of issues witht he Tomcat that threatened to drive Grumman under hence the need for the loan. At any rate, they were certainly NOT partners in the development as evidenced by the example of today's JSF or the Kuwaiti support of the improved engines for their A-4KU and later F/A-18C aircraft. They bought Tomcats right off the production line with only minor differences between their versions and the then current Navy model. Good question though. HJ 21:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
How should it be organized? Alphabetical order by museum, location? By BuNos? Kyuusei 22:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that the Quonset Air Museum in Rhode Island has a F-14A which is freshly painted in VF-101 Grim Reapers colors.
I'm not questiong that the F-14 is in Red Storm Rising, as I remember it being there when I read the book years ago. But Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate lists. Per WP:AIR/PC#Popular culture, Pop culture sections should be limited to the appearances are especially notable. To be included, the notability must be proven by verifiable sources. Without sources, the statements regarding the F-14 and its importance in the book are original research, and therefore not permitted in Wikipedia. I don't doubt that Red Storm Rising is used in military schools, but the book covers many other types of aircraft and varios other equipmant. Claiming the F-14's appearence in the book as "especially notable" requires verifiable soureces. PIf those can be provided to the satisfaction of other editors here, and a consensus reached to include the book, then fine. Until then, please refrain from inserting the appearance. Thanks. - BillCJ 05:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I've renamed this section from "Imperial Iranian Air Force / Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force" to "Iranian air forces" (note lower case on air forces). I did this before and got a knee jerk revert calling it vandalism. I think it is unneccassary and unencyclopedic to have the longer section label. - Fnlayson 15:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that's correct, because the Military of Iran also has the IRGC Air Force, which does not operate the F-14. -- Eurocopter tigre 16:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/02/shredding.tomcats.ap/index.html
Pentagon shreds F-14s to keep parts from enemies
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A mechanical monster grabs the F-14 fighter jet and chews through one wing and then another, ripping off the Tomcat's appendages before moving on to its guts. Finally, all that's left is a pile of shredded rubble -- like scraps from a Thanksgiving turkey.
...
The Pratt and Whitney F100/F401 engines were developed for the Air Force and Navy team until the Navy dropped out according to my F-15 Davies book. They were slightly different versions of the same engine. One version had slightly better performance and the other was easier to maintain, I think. Anyway, what the article says now matches my reference. - Fnlayson 18:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
My book says the F100/F401 contract was awarded to P&W in 1970. The AF and Navy formed a Joint Engine Project Office to coordinate their different requirements. The Navy wanted more thrust and the AF wanted less frequent overhauls and could deal with less thrust. Testing ran a few months late due to a turbine failure. The Navy cut back its order and problems arose. The Navy canceled its order for F401s in 1971 and dropped out. With the Navy requirements gone, they switched to an advanced aerodynamic compressor (was too heavy for Navy). The new compressor handled performance problems and deficiencies. - Fnlayson 03:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I have restored all the three links to Acig site. Obviousely, all these were deleted because some guys are still acting thinking that all the stuff not ufficial by US Navy is no good enough to be here. Regardless that these materials are widely discussed in acig and other sites, regardless that T.Cooper has written several books about, regardless that the logic simply suggest, that seen F-14s are still in service NOW, then 20 years ago obviousely Iran had still some in flyable conditions. BUT, since wikipedia has 'decided' that Cooper don't speak true, then he is cutted out from any articles about F-14 or whetever else. I find this simply unaccetable, but this is not my problem, is of those have still and still decided to ignore all Cooper had wrote about
(from acig site, Persian cat's article). -- Stefanomencarelli 22:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Not US junk? And when, of grace, will be considered by the grate Wikipedia that over US exists also other sources 'reliable' about something? Here is made what needs to an enciclopedic article or just to what US Gov. liked to be done?-- Stefanomencarelli 22:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Apart that i don't found 'fair' that someone choises to prone some links, and casually, all acig. i would inform you that if there is a site that has the capabilities to give good info and also discuss them it is Acig without any doubt, surely not the Mats home. There are not many sites that have both a forum and a webmaster that is a book autor, or?
Second, someone (Billbc) has whipped out my contributions about the tecnical description of F-14. This is not an excuse in any sense. I gave a overall description about all the aircraft. If someone found that it's unusual, futile or so on, it' his problem not mine. The works about aircrafts that i usually read (made by professionists like N.Sgarlato or A.Nativi) are composed of these four parts: origins, tecnical, versions, operativity. This make readable and well armonized an article, so it's not guilth of mine if the F-14s one have not a tecnical description. If you get a look to the stuff i have wrote all it's reparted in this manner, so i expects, that if one wants really improve an aircraft article, and F-14 is a class apart, he must point to the tecnology. If there is a 'design' section without any detailed description, then do not make a guilth to me that try to post it. You can improve what i have wrote, correct, rearranged, but delete it it's not definively an 'improvement' for the article, it's vandalize it. It's not because i wrote it, it's because the article need that section as hell, F-14 is an universe to describe just for tecnology used. So i invite you to improve that i wrote, but not delete it for funny reasons.-- Stefanomencarelli 15:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The following was placed on the talk page for NOR. It does not belong there ... I imagine it belongs here, or on the Iraq War talk page.
Right.
I found instead that there is such 'silence conspiration'. The fact, what happens here in the page, speaks alone.
Recent books by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop seem to suggest that the Iranian use of the Tomcat might have been more effective than had been previously reported. These books report that during the Iran-Iraq war Iranian Tomcat crews scored numerous AIM-54 kills, that there were several Tomcat aces with over 8 kills, and that there were over 100 total victory claims. (from Joe Baughet site, another illuse that believes in Cooper Claims enough to post them).
Now to your comments:
but the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the person questioning the data. Anyone can make a website and put up claims, but they need to be verifiable to be used as a reference.
LOL-With the same thinking, i would not believe in the Men on the moon, in the Holocaust, in the 11 september, and so on. But in every cases, there are not reasons to exclude his works about F-14 if not a clear case of genuine censorship. And you still not give me the reasons about that. Even the greatest historians have made herrors, lies and so on: there is not any sources sure 100%, Wikipedia has tons of pages about gods, goddeness, Silence conspiracies, etc. etc. But look, just T.Cooper is a 'non reliable source'. And this is due to what? To your judments obviousely. So i talk cleary to you and those like you: this is censorship and nothing else, a ridicolous one, a shamelessy one.-- Stefanomencarelli 17:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
"The F-14 suffered its only loss from enemy action on 21 January 1991 when b/n 161430, an F-14A upgraded to an F-14A+, from VF-103 was shot down by an SA-2 surface-to-air missile...."
Mmmk so I guess this isn't all that specific, but the Mirage F1 article states that two other Iranian F-14's were shot down by Iraqi Mirages during the Iran-Iraq war. Doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else in the article either, so I think someone should add it Masterblooregard 18:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but the list of F-14 losses (2-3 to Mirages and one to MiG) is from Acig.org, that is obviousely 'dislaked' in wiki.en.-- Stefanomencarelli 11:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I noticed that Stefanomencarelli added a very extensive "Technical Description" section. While I appreciate the level of detail and depth this section brings to the article, I noticed there are some grammar and organizational issues with the section as is. To that end, I submit for your consideration this version of the Technical Description section, below. I used Stefanomencarelli's version as a base and moved, added, and deleted some information.
The F-14's fuselage consists primarily of a large flat section, called the "pancake", the forward fuselage section ahead of the "pancake", and two engine pods below it. This "pancake" forms a flat deck between the two engine pods at the rear, and extends forward where it smoothly transitions into the forward fuselage pod, which houses the cockpit, radar and avionics, among other systems, as well as a retractable in-flight refueling probe. The flat deck allows space for weapons underneath, and contains integral fuel tanks. At the extreme aft end of the "pancake" deck, called the "beavertail", there are speedbrakes on the upper and lower surfaces, and an arrestor hook beneath the beavertail, as well as a fuel dump pipe inside the beavertail.
Each engine pod houses one engine at the extreme aft of the pod. At the front, each pod has a rectangular, highly swept back air intake. These intakes stand off the central fuselage enough so that complex splitters are not needed, as on other aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom. Inside each intake are a series of movable ramps that help to regulate the airflow into each engine, keeping it below subsonic speeds and keeping shockwaves from reaching the engine. Atop the intakes are bleed doors that alternately allow extra air into the engines (such as during takeoff) or allow excess air to bleed away. The intakes are angled outward from top to bottom when viewed from the front.
Extending outboard of each engine pod is a wing glove, which houses the variable-sweep wing mechanism and structure. These wing gloves form a diamond shape when viewed from above. Inside these gloves is a massive wing carry-through box, formed of titanium alloy. This carry-through box has the pivots for the variable sweep wing sections at each end. This carry-through box also contains integral fuel tanks. The glove vane provides hardpoints for missile pylons and launchers.
Attached to this carry-through box are the outer, swinging, wing sections. Each wing is of dual-spar construction, with fuel tanks between the spars. Attached to the trailing edge of the wing are flaps which extend the full span of the trailing edge. Slats span the entire leading edge, and spoilers are situated on the wing upper surface. These flaps and slats can be moved under the command of the central air-data computer to provide increased lift during maneuvering (early aircraft, before Block 90, had manual control only). There are no ailerons; roll control is provided by the spoilers and the all-moving horizontal tail. At wing sweep angles greater than 57°, the spoilers are locked down, and roll control is provided solely by the horizontal tail. Also, during carrier approaches, the spoilers are used as part of the Direct Lift Control (DLC) system, which, when engaged, causes the spoilers to extend slightly. When extra lift is required, the spoilers fully retract, providing lift without requiring changes in attitude.
The wing sweep angle is controlled by a AiResearch CP-1166B/A central air data computer (ADC), which calculates the optimum wing sweep based on speed and other conditions. It also controls the air intake geometry and maneuvering flap/slat positions. At takeoff and landing, the wings are set at their full forward position, which gives a 20° wing sweep. As speed increases, the wings are swung aft by actuators under the control of the ADC, until full wing sweep (68°) is achieved for high-speed flight. The ADC can, of course, be overridden by the pilot in emergencies. On the ground, the wings can be overswept to 75°, which reduces the space needed for carrier stowage and eliminates the need for folding wings. Throughout the wing sweep range, an aerodynamic seal between the wing and the part of the fuselage it swings over is maintained by inflatable canvas bags that are coated with Teflon to reduce friction. These bags inflate to fill the gap when the wings are swept forward.
Inside each of the wing gloves is a triangular glove vane. These were originally designed to aid stability at supersonic speeds; however in practice they provided marginal benefit and added weight and complexity. In the field they were locked shut and their actuators removed, and later build Tomcats were built without them.
Atop the aft section of each engine pod is a vertical stabilizer. The original Grumman design featured a single tail, but this was changed to the twin-tail arrangement at the request of the Navy. The twin tails each have conventional rudders and provide better yaw control, increased survivability (allowing for continued flight if one tail is damaged), and reduced height for carrier storage.
On the outboard side of each engine pod is an all-flying horizontal stabilizer. There are no separate elevators; the entire stabilizer moves on a pivot. The two stabilizers can move in the same direction for pitch control, as well as in different directions for roll control. These stabilizers are constructed primarily of boron composite, with aluminium leading and trailing edge and tip parts.
The flight controls are mechanical, using rods, cables and springs, among other devices. There is no fly-by-wire or artificial stability system, but there was an analog stability augmentation system which was intended to improve control. This was not effective, and in the late 1990s to early 2001 a new Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) was developed and installed fleet-wide. The DFCS improved handling and provided protection from unrecoverable flat spins (a notorious and dangerous flight characteristic of the Tomcat).
The pilot and Radar Intercept Officer (RIO, colloquially known as the "Guy in the Back Seat") are seated in either Martin-Baker GRU-7A (F-14A/B) or Martin-Baker SJU-17 NACES (F-14D) ejection seats. The crew is arranged in a tandem, one-behind-the-other, arrangement, which provides less drag than a side-by-side arrangement. The crew is covered by a large canopy that provides good all-around visibility.
The F-14A (the first version) was powered by two Pratt & Whitney TF30 afterburning turbofan engines. At the exhaust end of the engine there are variable exhaust nozzles, which slide fore and aft to open or close the nozzle opening, respectively. These engines were not intended for a fighter like the F-14, were underpowered, finicky, and especially susceptible to compressor stalls and blade failures. More detail on these problems can be found in "Upgrades", below. The later F-14B and F-14D models were fitted with much more reliable, more powerful and less temperamental General Electric F110 engines.
The F-14 has a tricycle landing gear, with a twin-wheel nose gear strut in the forward fuselage and single-wheel main gear struts outboard of the engine pods. All gear struts retract forward; the main gear wheels rotate 90° to lie flat in the gear well.
The F-14 has a comprehensive suite of electronics for navigation, communications, electronic countermeasures (ECM)/jamming, and identification and targeting of enemy aircraft. The F-14A is equipped with a Hughes AN/AWG-9 radar and fire control system. This system is able to track 24 targets and attack six more targets with its Hughes AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. The system is also capable of looking down, to identify low-level targets. The later F-14D variant was equipped with an upgraded Hughes AN/APG-71 radar.
Beneath the nose of the F-14 are a variety of electronic chin pods, depending on variant. Early F-14As were equipped only with an electronic jamming pod, an AN/ALR-23 infrared (IR) seeker, or both. In practice, this IR seeker was ineffective and replaced on later F-14As and F-14Bs with a Northrop Television Camera System (TCS) which enabled long-range visual identification of targets. The later F-14D is equipped with a dual chin pod with the TCS and an IR seeker side-by-side.
Other avionics and on-board electronic systems include
The F-14 can be armed with a variety of weapons, including air-to-air missiles and bombs. The F-14 can be loaded with the following missiles:
There were plans to modify the F-14 to accept the AIM-120 AMRAAM missile, but these were scrapped by the US government.
The F-14 is also equipped with a 20 mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon for close-in dogfighting. It fires out of the port side of the forward fuselage looking forward, and contains 675 rounds.
The F-14 can also be used for precision guided and unguided bombing; see "Transformation" below.
Please tell me what you think, and if you think that this version should replace the current section. If you have comments or changes for me to make, please say so here as well! I am aware of the lack of references, wikilinks/external links, or sources, and will add them if/when it is decided to add this section to the article.
Thanks very much, Nick L. 10:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't find so 'good' such version. The part about electronic is whipped out, that's unaccettable for the F-14 description. The fuel system is lacking, unaccettable as well. When Bzuk will finish to magnificate every thing against my work, perhaps he also will see that this version is not complete and an overall worsement respect to the one now present. Dont' rely too much about 'language spelling issues' i know i am not of mother language, but i am not a moron as well()).-- Stefanomencarelli 20:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've made some changes to the section, mostly about the electronics. I've also seen to some of the sections that needed work, and removed the bolded text (seems like they've been fixed). Please comment. Also, I would like to know your opinions regarding the replacement of the section in the article with the above version. Thanks, Nick L. 04:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
A lot of interesting stuff, but a lot is also mentioned in several other places. There are lot of stuff missing, there are a different set of ejection seats in the F-14D, and the stuff about the Tomcat lacking multi funciton displays is just not right. With the additon of the LANTIRN in the 1990's, MFDs were added. The text is mainly about the F-14A. And the A-model must have had MFD's as well, at least the RIO, otherwise it would have been problematic due to the LANTIRN pod and the RIO must at least be able to select options and what not when using the LANTIRN and laser guided bombs.
The section about the engines are only in regard to the F-14A, nothing is deeply mentioned about the B and D. Hagman1983 14:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC) Hagman1983
Hi. I went through the section and copy edited it. I understand that there are plans to replace or rewrite the whole section, but the section in its current form was pretty much incomprehensible in places, so I thought it best to do something ASAP. There are also a lot of uncited statements. Regards Davidelit 06:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Uncited statements from Joe Baugher site. The word 'only' about internal fuel capability: are you aware how much is 9000 l.? Just to checking. There is no other western fighter capable to do so. So definitively 'only' is a wrong word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefanomencarelli ( talk • contribs) 10:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
--
Hope that's allright for the moment... Greetings, Andi 11:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
See my comments on your "talk" page. Better readabillity is a laudable goal considering the patched up mess this article that has resulted from recent edits but my question was over the use of the word "gear" which may not always mean "landing gear." BTW, get a proper userid so that your work is identified to a serious researcher. Also, use the four tilde (~) method to sign off the comments on talk pages. FWIW Bzuk 11:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC).
I think it just should be removed. It's too much, it's cumbersome to read, unnecessary information. You don't see the wiki-pages about the F-15, F-16 or the F/A-18 variants with such information. Remove it, the page will look more cleaner, better readability and it's too "technical" and a this page has turned into a total mess. Hagman1983 15:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Errr, if F-15/16/18 have not this 'over-unnecessary' info it's not a merit, it's because they are not enough deepth in description. You cannot delete tecnical description of F-14 except you want to have a drastically incomplete article about it. It's simply impossible make a good work without this info level, that is usually searched by aviation fans (the more interested to such articles).
Moreover: it's false that the tecnical description is already covering the whole avionics set. Just the main elements like the radar, but the list total is far more greater.
But the others are much more, over 40:
Radar: Hughes AWG-9, (later APG-71), APN-194 radar altimeter, DSQ-23 (Phoenix missiles)
If you don't like this part, there is not much problem (even if i think this should be in the article). There are sub-articles of F-14 tomcat, so the best thing could be simply to split the stuff in a dedicated article about the detailed, tecnical analysis and description of Tomcat. This aircraft is, among the many fighter, the most sofistied as tecnical and avionics, with ten aerodinamic surfaces and dozens avionic elements. Just think to Mirage III, that has only three fixed surfaces, one radar, one RWR and one radio-nav set. Almost a toy.
I propose: F-14 tecnical description.
Or History of the F-14 Tomcat, enlarged to tecnical analysis.-- Stefanomencarelli 20:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Uhmm, yeah, sorry. A seperate article would work of course. Hagman1983 13:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
So we agree?-- Stefanomencarelli 13:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I say no. Aircraft already has a few split off articles. There weren't enough F-14s made to justify more articles, imo. - Fnlayson 05:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the F-14 should not be split, but without a complete and extensive tecnical description the article loose greatly in deepth and for 'aviation fans' also in interest. I think that no F-14 article could be made without an extensive tecnical-avionic description, so i don't think that this is excessive. But if someone is interested to cut it a bit, this cannot be done removing the stuff. It must be done with the right solutions. So i'll remove the F-14 tecnical description and place it in History of F-14.-- Stefanomencarelli 18:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
So the famous duo Bill/Bzuk strike again. Every time you can make gratouitous provocations is good enough, huh? First, Bill, you have no really clue of what you are saying, unless you desire to make a second rate class article.
Second, the stuff to remove a simple prhase that claiming a clear attack against me made by Bzuk is unsupportable and illegal. I remark that in discussion pages there must be much care to 'remove' 'personal attacks' far from be proof. The only thing i can say for sure, is still that you two dear boys are still hers JUST to provocke me as mob. So, since while someone has deleted absolutely in a illegal manner my 'partial edit' to Bzuk, i not only contest this, but also remove the Bzuk statement itself, that was a clear and gratuoitus attack on my self.-- Stefanomencarelli 00:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
One, BE POLITE in discussions. Your kindly word should be keep away from this. Two:
Discussion page vandalism Blanking the posts of other users from talk pages other than your own, Wikipedia space, and other discussions, aside from removing internal spam, vandalism, etc., is generally considered vandalism. An obvious exception is moving posts to a proper place (e.g. protection requests to WP:RFPP). Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long talk page by creating an archive page and moving the text from the main talk page there. Note: The above rules do not apply to a user's own talk page.
Since: Linking to external attacks or harassment for the purpose of attacking another editor. is considered a PERSONAL ATTACK, so Bzuk has made one against me, for the obvious purpuse to throw me discredit and surely this cannot be accepted in a CIVIL discussion.
So who is babbling about 'personal attacks' Huh?.-- Stefanomencarelli 09:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello Gents, I was lucky enough to pilot the F-14A with VF-1 on USS RANGER 1991-92, then the F-14D with VF-2 on USS CONSTELLATION 1993-1994. I enjoy your descriptions, and have two items to add.
First, the 'pancake' section of the fuselage (I've never heard it called that), being flat on the bottom and cambered on the top (between the heat exchanger vents) is actually a LIFTING BODY. This comes into play at high speed when the wings are swept and provide little lift. Its noteworthy that when the wings are swept, the wings spoilers are locked down and only the horizontal stabs provide roll.
Second, the reason for Cheney cancelling the F-14D is more simple than stated here. The airplane had huge downtime maintenance compared to the Hornet. For two-plane launches we almost always manned a third jet as a spare in case a Tomcat went down before launch. Hornet squadrons would seldom man spares, or would do so with just one spare per 4 or 6 Hornet launches. It always amused me to see our RIOs make elaborate, impassioned presentations during squadron meetings on how the Navy was blowing it by canceling the Tomcat instead of continuing upgrades. First, we squadron members of course have no say on the future of the program. Second, it made perfect sense to me to go with the newer F/A-18 E/F. I have friends who fly it and rave about how the 'bubble' expanded for them tactically.
The Tomcat was an iconic aircraft, a marvelous weapons platform and a real crowd pleaser at airshows. It was ahead of its time, and bridged the gap very well between the Phantom and the Hornet. Tbarn9 ( talk) 23:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LastCatshot.jpg
There is no F-14 located in Air & Space's national mall building. It is located in the Dulles annex. The Witch King 20:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the main article: Two Iranian F-14's and an F-4 are visible at Oibb Bushehr AB, Iran at these coordinates: 28°56′27″N 50°51′35″E / 28.9409°N 50.8596°E, 28°56′32″N 50°51′24″E / 28.9423°N 50.8566°E, and 28°56′27″N 50°51′14″E / 28.9409°N 50.8538°E, respectively. The images are a bit interesting since they don't appear to have the desert camo paint scheme I was expecting, more like the US paint scheme I think. The first two images. F-4 has the camo. -- Dual Freq 00:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC) Thats because they are repainting them in a new scheme (blue and matte brown) that fits the role better —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.73.173.88 ( talk) 08:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this really necessary? -- Mmx1 ( talk) 03:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Well this is my first time adding something, well I haven't added yet. Anyway I was in Hawaii and saw multiple Tomcats fly over more than once. I thought I would just throw this in because in the first section at the end it says that only some Islamic countries fly them, when this is untrue. I want to help keep this article as accurate as possible. From what I hear it is only flown by some reserve bases (US only). That's it. Stunta1350 July 25, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stunta1350 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
the clause 'all navy squadrons never got ----' is ambiguous at best. what the hell does that mean? not all navy squadrons got? no navy squadrons ever got. can't fix it myself cause i don't know what is meant. attention is needed. Toyokuni3 ( talk) 20:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't there some controversy over the retirement of the F-14? I think there should be some sort of mention of that. -- 74.232.40.83 ( talk) 20:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
four f-14's can be seen in Teheran! coordenates are, 35'42'15.90 N and 51'17'51.04 O google earth 213.73.171.102 ( talk) 22:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I am pretty certian that the F-14 is no longer in action.
kingpenguins —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingpenguins2007 ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
The article states that 13 aircraft were delivered before the overthrow of the Shah, then orders to the west were cancelled. It also says that Iran has 59 F-14's. 13 does NOT equal 59. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.215.122.27 ( talk) 03:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The ones they have currently flying I dare say would be inferior in comparison to the current US inventory. All the Tomcats the Shah inherited were sabotaged by outgoing Grumman technicians. Certain components were pulled from the aircraft and were made inoperable one way or another. Until this could be confirmed by visual inspection, caution is still advisable, but not overly done. Nighthawke75 20:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
That was almost 30 years ago, mate. Totally irrelevant rumour for todays Iran AF inventory of f-14s. Wikinegern ( talk) 12:49, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
did the marines not fly this plane? Toyokuni3 ( talk) 20:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
No, the USMC did not use the F-14. They retained F-4s until the F/A-18 enterd service. - BillCJ ( talk) 20:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
USMC were more interested in fighter/bombers than pure fighters the F-14 was. 20:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nighthawke75 ( talk • contribs)
Is the F-14 actually in service with the Iranian military or is it just in their possession? 72.83.108.191 ( talk) 18:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
They have roughly 1/3 to 1/4 of their original inventory to 75% combat capability. The outgoing Grumman techs saw to that by destroying certain avionics in the aircraft. They would be hard-pressed to take on modern aircraft. Nighthawke75 20:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the recent edits regarding the number of hardpoints, these two pictures show them all. I've also found a written source for it, but it does not mention wether or not the TARPS point is (or should considered to be) a seperate one or the same hardpoint as one of the missile points. Somehow I doubt if any source will mention it unless it's very in depth. But the number of points is clearly either 10 or 11 (unless the fuel points are not counted for some reason). - Berkoet ( talk) 23:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I know this was a very long time ago when this actually happened but the man who convinced the navy to go with the f14 not the F-111B was my great grandfather Robert Lee Townsend. He was a 3 star general in the navy and lost his chance of a 4th star by "burning" some higher ranked men who had invested in the F-111B. For those of you who read this and are very mature you will understand why my great grandfather decided not to fight for the credit of convincing the navy against Thomas Connolly. He thought it wasn't worth fighting for because he had better things to do then. He lived to be 102 when he died and i am his namesake. I am not like him though, he died with only family and probably a few friends and some Co-workers who knew the truth. But i can't stand that the credit of such a great decision was taken from him! I want to set the story right! I want the truth to be known! My great grandfather Robert Lee Towndsend was the man to fight long and hard to have the Navy use the F14 Tomcat instead of the F-111B not Thomas Connolly. There have always been men who would take the credit of others to get more "popular" or "impressive" but my question is how come he couldn't do it himself? Why did he have to take the credit from someone else? I cant stand men(or women) like that. Worthless bunch of fools who waste time then when they get nothing accomplished mooch off of others. Don't get me wrong im not saying that Thomas Connolly was completely like this, after all he was a 3 star general. All i want is that my great grandfather is given his due respect. He is dead now and made a large difference when he was alive. There isn't much on him on wikipedia but i am planning on making a page about him soon just need to gather alot more information. Just please change any mistakes about this fact in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertleespeers ( talk • contribs) 03:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I will try to find something but my dad is also in the military and he tells me that the files that can prove what i am saying are there...but they are in a sense "untouchable" but i talked to my dad and my grandmother(Robert Lee Townsend's daughter) and they told me everything...just if i could prove it....i will try..i just need time...and i am new at wikipedia so please gimme a bit of a break with all the reading and guidelines(theres tons!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertleespeers ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
F-14B 201 of VF-84 Jolly Rogers currently at the USS LEXINGTON Museum, Corpus Christi TX. No BuNo yet. Nighthawke75 ( talk) 19:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The F-22 Raptor interceptor had first flew in the 1990, but as the prototypes were well known at the time. F-22 Raptor is the 2nd most expensive military project after B2 Spirit. I think the funding migrated to the YF-22 Raptor project. A request for proposal (RFP) was issued in July 1986 Renegadeviking 05:50am 24 December, 2007 (CST)
I thought it was because the F-18 was going to be cheaper to maintain-- 68.199.113.247 ( talk) 18:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
In 1989 when the push to cancel the F-14D to began, all the stories I've skimmed seem to say it was an attempt to reduce the budget deficit, by favoring advanced aircraft of the future over newer versions of older aircraft. According to this quote, he wanted to modernize existing aircraft instead, to save money: "Our fleet of F-14 fighters could be modernized at a cost of $25 million each, Cheney said, but to keep production lines open in Long Island, N.Y., Congress has insisted the Pentagon buy completely new and updated F-14s at a cost of $50 million each. For the sake of jobs, not defense, this policy will cost the taxpayers an extra $1 billion over the next few years to modernize 30 percent fewer fighters." - Colorado Springs (Colo.) Gazette Telegraph, Aug. 5 and Sept. 20. (1989) -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Mr. Cheney has also decided not to produce a new version of the F-14 plane, instead converting older models, a saving of about $2.4 billion over the next five years." Cheney Defends Budget Decisions To Cut Some Weapon Programs MICHAEL R. GORDON. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Apr 26, 1989. pg. A.21 -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"Pentagon officials have characterized the F-14 as 1960s technology. In budget recommendations to Congress, Cheney proposed stopping production of the Grumman plane and beginning the upgrade of 400 existing F-14s to the newer "D" configuration. Those remanufactured planes would be used until the successor aircraft - the Advanced Tactical Fighter - is available." Cheney Aims Barrage at F-14D Calls keeping jet a `jobs program'; By Stephanie Saul. Newsday Washington Bureau. Newsday. Long Island, N.Y.: Aug 24, 1989. pg. 06. --- That didn't exactly work out, Congress funded a couple years of F-14D's and spent less money on advanced projects than was requested. The Navy never got an ATF version, getting the Super Hornet instead. I don't think the fact that the Navy didn't get an ATF is Cheney's fault, though. At least not from reading 1989 articles about the 1990 budget fight. -- Dual Freq ( talk) 22:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Super Tomcat designated the F-14D and not the F-14C? Vicarious Tendril ( talk) 04:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if there are specific passages/claims that have been identified in the Design section which need citations. The section is quite large and covers many different details. Without pointing out what's at issue, it will be very difficult for anyone to satisfy the one requesting verification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Agsftw ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is speed quoted as 2.34? The aircraft is not a Mach 2 class aircraft. -- 99.235.15.225 ( talk) 19:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.
It's believed by some that the MiG-31's advanced, multi-plane tracking radar system was more or less a copy of the system in the F-14. Soviet/Russian military officials deny the claim but there is no denying that they are very similar. The rumor or claim is supported by the assertion that the Soviets either salvaged one off the bottom of the ocean that crashed off a carrier, or that Iran supplied them with one or maybe two of their F-14s in exchange for new weapons or other types of technical support. There are stories on various internet sites and at least one poor quality photo that I've seen of a former IIAF F-14A in the original three color desert camouflage pattern with Soviet style nose numbers and a red star on the tail. Of course it could be a manipulated photo. Does anyone know of any reliable sources that can either confirm or refute the rumor? ZeroSnake ( talk) 03:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I think this article is in good shape overall. But History of the F-14 Tomcat is in poor shape. Should some of that be merged/moved here or some other solution? - Fnlayson ( talk) 03:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking of using a table to list all the F-14 variants. I saw a similar variation of this on the Boeing 737 page, and I think it looked fantastic, and I think it's a good feature rather than just showing one variant AVKent882 ( talk) 17:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)