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The line, "A possible explanation would be that the cyanide in the cakes had vaporized due to the high temperatures during the baking in the oven." is wild speculation. The boiling point of sodium cyanide is 1496 Degree Celsius. That is a bit high for any kitchen oven.
an anonymous newbie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 ( talk) 02:07, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Nothing was baked. According to Yusupov and Puriskevich, Lazovert took off the tops of the petit fours and added the powder. If it was poison, we don't know. Taksen ( talk) 13:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Alnasi ( talk) 02:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
By the use of a quite impressing calendar software called "Calendar Magic" and one of it's many tools, "CalendarComparison", I get 29.December 1916 russian/julian/O.S. date to equal 11.January 1917 western/gregorian/n.s. date. I also think that we could be more clear in cases of russian dates, and in this case mention something liket "Rasputin died on 29.December 1916, Russian date - which eaquals 11.January 1917". Objections ? Boeing720 ( talk) 23:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC) Correction, I see now that article states that the murder of Rasputin was on 30.December - and Gregorian/N.S. calendary. But the source to this date is not very thrustworthy, I think. (and possibly missunderstood). I've read that Rasputin was assasinated at new years evening, Czar Russian New Years Evening, that was. I also red that Rasputin posted a letter to the Czar, who had gone to the front in an attempt to inspire his soldiers. In the letter Rasputin made two predictions - 1. "I will not see the sun rise in the new year 1917" 2. "If my killers are your.." (the Czar) "..enemies then you have nothing to fear, but if I'm killed by your friends, You will not live for longer than 18 months". (Both become true) I don't recall where I red this, but I'm quitesure that I have. And in any case (apart from the letter) was he killed around russian new years evening (possible a day before), but 30:th December 1916 O.S./Julian equals like I wrote 11:th January 1917 N.S./Gregorian. Difference in 1900s is Gregorian/N.S date = Julian/O.S + 13 days. So 17:th December only comes from a calculation error, I fear. 83.249.173.211 ( talk) 23:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)(Login error) Boeing720 ( talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Reference 22, which links to http://radzinski.ru/doc/books/rasputin gives server error 404 (page not found). Christian424 ( talk) 02:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Maybe add an internal link for the first occurrence of cloister? -- 82.170.113.123 ( talk) 16:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Dear Mr Dummies102, can I ask you a question? Where you baptized on the day you were born? Taksen ( talk) 18:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
In Rasputin: The Untold Story by Joseph T. Fuhrmann (2012) the actual date of Rasputin's birth was published. Could someone take a look? Taksen ( talk) 20:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Rasputin's birth name was Grigory Efimovich and not Grigory Rasputin. He was given the nicknames Rasputin as a child as he wasn't well-behaved as a child and was caught smoking at the age of 5! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.216.150.7 ( talk) 18:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
"Rasputin soon became a controversial figure, becoming involved in a paradigm of sharp political struggle..." Did the author mean "paradigm shift" perhaps? A paradigm is a pattern of thought. The word doesn't mean anything here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.3.95 ( talk) 06:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
According several sources Rasputin was taken from his apartment to Moika Palace after midnight. He most likely died on 30 December 1916 early in the morning. Taksen ( talk) 11:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Removed a claim that the cyanide would have vaporized at the high temperature used for cooking the cakes. This has already been done and there is a talk page segment (Wild speculation) about it. The boiling points of potassium and sodium cyanide are 1625°C for KCN and 1496°C for NaCN. (Both of these are well over 2700°F.) The cyanide was almost certainly given as one of these salts.
HCN, hydrogen cyanide, boils at 25-26°C and is very volatile. It can be supplied in a liquid form (as in a cyanide pill) or as a solid impregnated with HCN (as in Zyklon B), but HCN is extremely dangerous to the handler and vaporizes rapidly. It may be that cyanide salts react to form HCN in the weakly acidic environment of a cake batter, but without literature support that is speculation. The "no thanks, I can't have sugar" explanation seems by far more plausible.
Roches ( talk) 10:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
In Russia they were using the Julian Calendar until 1918, see Old Style and New Style dates, so according to the Julian calender 29 June 1914 was a Sunday, see Common_year_starting_on_Wednesday. According to the Gregorian calendar the 29th was a Monday. It is not clear Rasputin went home from church or from the post office. Taksen ( talk) 10:29, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I have extensive knowledge of the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The dates provided in the subsequent section about Rasputin's murder are clearly Gregorian (there is little dispute that Rasputin was murdered Friday the 29th or Saturday the 30th of December 1916 (which would have been Friday the 16th or Saturday the 17th December Julian style)); therefore, it stood to reason to assume that the use of the date June 29, 1914 was Gregorian as well, which would have made it a Monday. If in fact it was Sunday June 29 Julian style, a note ought to be made that that date would have been Gregorian date July 12.
Who are these awarding authors of A Miscellany of Murder: From History and Literature to True Crime and Television By The Monday Murder Club page 154? In this way it's hard to believe the reference is thrustworthy. Taksen ( talk) 21:05, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Elder Nikolay Guryanov is now dead, so the sentence, "In Russia he is nowadays viewed favorably by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov" is no longer grammatically correct. 24.90.73.58 ( talk) 23:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)NachshonR
One of the first article sections uses this word. It ought to be linked to an article on that subject! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.227.15.253 ( talk) 07:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
By deleting the size of the pictures, the article became in my point of view very messy, more amateurish. It gives me a headache, just looking at it. Is that what you want? I hope others agree, so we can change it back. There is nothing wrong with size 200px. Thx. 22:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Taksen ( talk)
Dear Hohum, you have not changed much in the text, it is obvious you are not an expert; it takes a while. Some of your changes look ok, but, I don't like your lay-out at all. Mine is more balanced. It looks sophisticated, 1.2 upright, but the outcome is messy. Please propose your next changes and start a discussion. I spent ten months studying this subject and as a typesetter I do know something about lay-out. I don't care about a Wikipedia rule, which makes many articles look messy. Thx22:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Taksen ( talk) 22:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia about 4.000 people each day read this article. No one complained about the lay-out. How come? Please explain. I don't believe you have a serious argument. The rules became more important than the readability. Why do you think newspapers have small columns? Could it be readability? You complain about my attitude, but changing the the article heavily without any explanation on the talk-page, as if everybody has all the knowledge about the thousands of rules and exceptions, is an accepted attitude in between. I work in four different Wikipedia's; the rules differ and the German and the English have the worst lay-out, because of this rule. It has to do with some - in between old-fashioned - German law, in which it was accepted to use thumbs on internet without legal consequences. In the English Wikipedia this German case law was "imported". Please tell your colleagues, who like this rule also. Taksen ( talk) 06:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I changed the size of all the pictures, now the messy impression is gone. I moved one picture up and one down so another problem was solved. I added a new picture to fill the last paragraph. Without pictures the lines in Wikipedia almost doubled in size then custom. Articles need as much pictures as possible to solve this problem.
Also Wordpress promotes this rule. Taksen ( talk) 08:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The "assassination" section is interspersed with colorful details that have no purpose other than to heighten the mood of the writing. Such flourishes do not, I think, belong in an encyclopedia. For example:
I could go on, but I think this should be enough to explain my point. Remember, the purpose of the article is to deliver factual information, not tell a fun story. This is especially true in this case, when the story in question is so historically murky. I have re-added the cleanup template, as I don't have time to do extensive editing right now. Please do not remove it without addressing these issues. Hope this helps! Augurar ( talk) 05:20, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello Augurar, there are two stories on the Assassination, one by Youssopov and one by Pourichkevich; their details differ, so some of the details in the lemma have to do with this discussion. Then there is the view of his daughter Maria, and Rasputin's secretary who do not think Rasputin ate anything sweet. It is very likely Youssopov made up a story to hide what really happened in the basement. But his story is also what many but not everybody believe. It goes around in many movies, documentaries, articles and books.
It is very complicated subject, I can assure you. Besides I am Dutch and English is not my mother tongue. It takes a lot of time to find out which stories are made up (gossip), and which are more reliable. I already left out many details. Did you compare this paragraph with what was there, let say a year ago? In between I will ask around as you don't have time. Taksen ( talk) 08:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC) The article became twice as long but has four times more references since February 2012 when I started here. Taksen ( talk) 18:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
The line, "A possible explanation would be that the cyanide in the cakes had vaporized due to the high temperatures during the baking in the oven." is wild speculation. The boiling point of sodium cyanide is 1496 Degree Celsius. That is a bit high for any kitchen oven.
an anonymous newbie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 ( talk) 02:07, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Nothing was baked. According to Yusupov and Puriskevich, Lazovert took off the tops of the petit fours and added the powder. If it was poison, we don't know. Taksen ( talk) 13:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Alnasi ( talk) 02:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
By the use of a quite impressing calendar software called "Calendar Magic" and one of it's many tools, "CalendarComparison", I get 29.December 1916 russian/julian/O.S. date to equal 11.January 1917 western/gregorian/n.s. date. I also think that we could be more clear in cases of russian dates, and in this case mention something liket "Rasputin died on 29.December 1916, Russian date - which eaquals 11.January 1917". Objections ? Boeing720 ( talk) 23:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC) Correction, I see now that article states that the murder of Rasputin was on 30.December - and Gregorian/N.S. calendary. But the source to this date is not very thrustworthy, I think. (and possibly missunderstood). I've read that Rasputin was assasinated at new years evening, Czar Russian New Years Evening, that was. I also red that Rasputin posted a letter to the Czar, who had gone to the front in an attempt to inspire his soldiers. In the letter Rasputin made two predictions - 1. "I will not see the sun rise in the new year 1917" 2. "If my killers are your.." (the Czar) "..enemies then you have nothing to fear, but if I'm killed by your friends, You will not live for longer than 18 months". (Both become true) I don't recall where I red this, but I'm quitesure that I have. And in any case (apart from the letter) was he killed around russian new years evening (possible a day before), but 30:th December 1916 O.S./Julian equals like I wrote 11:th January 1917 N.S./Gregorian. Difference in 1900s is Gregorian/N.S date = Julian/O.S + 13 days. So 17:th December only comes from a calculation error, I fear. 83.249.173.211 ( talk) 23:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)(Login error) Boeing720 ( talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Reference 22, which links to http://radzinski.ru/doc/books/rasputin gives server error 404 (page not found). Christian424 ( talk) 02:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Maybe add an internal link for the first occurrence of cloister? -- 82.170.113.123 ( talk) 16:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Dear Mr Dummies102, can I ask you a question? Where you baptized on the day you were born? Taksen ( talk) 18:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
In Rasputin: The Untold Story by Joseph T. Fuhrmann (2012) the actual date of Rasputin's birth was published. Could someone take a look? Taksen ( talk) 20:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Rasputin's birth name was Grigory Efimovich and not Grigory Rasputin. He was given the nicknames Rasputin as a child as he wasn't well-behaved as a child and was caught smoking at the age of 5! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.216.150.7 ( talk) 18:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
"Rasputin soon became a controversial figure, becoming involved in a paradigm of sharp political struggle..." Did the author mean "paradigm shift" perhaps? A paradigm is a pattern of thought. The word doesn't mean anything here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.3.95 ( talk) 06:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
According several sources Rasputin was taken from his apartment to Moika Palace after midnight. He most likely died on 30 December 1916 early in the morning. Taksen ( talk) 11:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Removed a claim that the cyanide would have vaporized at the high temperature used for cooking the cakes. This has already been done and there is a talk page segment (Wild speculation) about it. The boiling points of potassium and sodium cyanide are 1625°C for KCN and 1496°C for NaCN. (Both of these are well over 2700°F.) The cyanide was almost certainly given as one of these salts.
HCN, hydrogen cyanide, boils at 25-26°C and is very volatile. It can be supplied in a liquid form (as in a cyanide pill) or as a solid impregnated with HCN (as in Zyklon B), but HCN is extremely dangerous to the handler and vaporizes rapidly. It may be that cyanide salts react to form HCN in the weakly acidic environment of a cake batter, but without literature support that is speculation. The "no thanks, I can't have sugar" explanation seems by far more plausible.
Roches ( talk) 10:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
In Russia they were using the Julian Calendar until 1918, see Old Style and New Style dates, so according to the Julian calender 29 June 1914 was a Sunday, see Common_year_starting_on_Wednesday. According to the Gregorian calendar the 29th was a Monday. It is not clear Rasputin went home from church or from the post office. Taksen ( talk) 10:29, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
I have extensive knowledge of the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The dates provided in the subsequent section about Rasputin's murder are clearly Gregorian (there is little dispute that Rasputin was murdered Friday the 29th or Saturday the 30th of December 1916 (which would have been Friday the 16th or Saturday the 17th December Julian style)); therefore, it stood to reason to assume that the use of the date June 29, 1914 was Gregorian as well, which would have made it a Monday. If in fact it was Sunday June 29 Julian style, a note ought to be made that that date would have been Gregorian date July 12.
Who are these awarding authors of A Miscellany of Murder: From History and Literature to True Crime and Television By The Monday Murder Club page 154? In this way it's hard to believe the reference is thrustworthy. Taksen ( talk) 21:05, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Elder Nikolay Guryanov is now dead, so the sentence, "In Russia he is nowadays viewed favorably by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov" is no longer grammatically correct. 24.90.73.58 ( talk) 23:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)NachshonR
One of the first article sections uses this word. It ought to be linked to an article on that subject! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.227.15.253 ( talk) 07:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
By deleting the size of the pictures, the article became in my point of view very messy, more amateurish. It gives me a headache, just looking at it. Is that what you want? I hope others agree, so we can change it back. There is nothing wrong with size 200px. Thx. 22:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Taksen ( talk)
Dear Hohum, you have not changed much in the text, it is obvious you are not an expert; it takes a while. Some of your changes look ok, but, I don't like your lay-out at all. Mine is more balanced. It looks sophisticated, 1.2 upright, but the outcome is messy. Please propose your next changes and start a discussion. I spent ten months studying this subject and as a typesetter I do know something about lay-out. I don't care about a Wikipedia rule, which makes many articles look messy. Thx22:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Taksen ( talk) 22:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia about 4.000 people each day read this article. No one complained about the lay-out. How come? Please explain. I don't believe you have a serious argument. The rules became more important than the readability. Why do you think newspapers have small columns? Could it be readability? You complain about my attitude, but changing the the article heavily without any explanation on the talk-page, as if everybody has all the knowledge about the thousands of rules and exceptions, is an accepted attitude in between. I work in four different Wikipedia's; the rules differ and the German and the English have the worst lay-out, because of this rule. It has to do with some - in between old-fashioned - German law, in which it was accepted to use thumbs on internet without legal consequences. In the English Wikipedia this German case law was "imported". Please tell your colleagues, who like this rule also. Taksen ( talk) 06:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I changed the size of all the pictures, now the messy impression is gone. I moved one picture up and one down so another problem was solved. I added a new picture to fill the last paragraph. Without pictures the lines in Wikipedia almost doubled in size then custom. Articles need as much pictures as possible to solve this problem.
Also Wordpress promotes this rule. Taksen ( talk) 08:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
The "assassination" section is interspersed with colorful details that have no purpose other than to heighten the mood of the writing. Such flourishes do not, I think, belong in an encyclopedia. For example:
I could go on, but I think this should be enough to explain my point. Remember, the purpose of the article is to deliver factual information, not tell a fun story. This is especially true in this case, when the story in question is so historically murky. I have re-added the cleanup template, as I don't have time to do extensive editing right now. Please do not remove it without addressing these issues. Hope this helps! Augurar ( talk) 05:20, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello Augurar, there are two stories on the Assassination, one by Youssopov and one by Pourichkevich; their details differ, so some of the details in the lemma have to do with this discussion. Then there is the view of his daughter Maria, and Rasputin's secretary who do not think Rasputin ate anything sweet. It is very likely Youssopov made up a story to hide what really happened in the basement. But his story is also what many but not everybody believe. It goes around in many movies, documentaries, articles and books.
It is very complicated subject, I can assure you. Besides I am Dutch and English is not my mother tongue. It takes a lot of time to find out which stories are made up (gossip), and which are more reliable. I already left out many details. Did you compare this paragraph with what was there, let say a year ago? In between I will ask around as you don't have time. Taksen ( talk) 08:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC) The article became twice as long but has four times more references since February 2012 when I started here. Taksen ( talk) 18:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)