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I will work on the article... Just started on it. Feel free to help out! Thanx! Pel thal ( talk) 19:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The term is really confusing, the historical right term would be 'Northern Epirotes', according to the geographic area that are concentrated. History section also proves that. There wasn't an Albanian state before 1913, and we are starting from antiquity, on the other hand the term Epirus seems historically and geographically (because of the populations concentration in the south part of Albania, a.k.a. north part of Epirus) more accurate. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree. The article's title should better be Northern Epirotes (like Chameria=>Cham Albanians, Aegean Macedonia=>Aegean Macedonians). Greek minority in Albania should be ranamed to Northern Epirotes.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 15:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Strongly disagree The Greek Minority in Albania is the official term, even in Greece. (see [1]) This is not the case of Cham Albanians, because the majority of them are not living any more in Greece and do not have greek citizienship. Every minority in the world has such a name. Albanians in Macedonia, Greeks in Turkey, etc. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
In that case, we should make another article for Northern Epirotes.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 16:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
These people have their own cultural identity not only inside Albania but in Greece too. There exist a 200.000 diaspora of them (according to official sources) in Greece today, and many cultural and folkloric organizations are created by them. It sounds a little wierd to call them in Greece 'Former members of the ethnic Greek minority of Albania that live in Greece now' or just 'former minotirity members of Albania'. We need a name that incorporates both the people residing in Albania and the diaspora. I mean why shouldn't we call them the way they call themselves? We can create a seperate paragraph stating the names they are called (the official, and the one that selfindentify themselves). Another solution would be to move to 'Northern Epirot Greeks' like the Pontic Greeks.
Greeks from Turkey are also called according to their geographical origin ( Pontic Greeks from Pontus, Polites from Constantinople and Mikrasiates from Asia minor). People of Albanian origin in Italy are called 'Arberesh' not Albanians of Italy, thats because they have their own cultural indentity, history, dialect, have their diaspora and are called by they name they call themselves. It gets really confusing giving the name of a country's minority, without accepting their name which is part of their identity. I believe, if we give an carefull npov approach to the article, we can find a common view. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
That Northern part, however, is almost 100 years in the other side of the borders and is not just the northern part. Th term Northern Epirus is widely applied. Do not forget that it was at a point an independent that had the exact name, so it is not just a geographical term as "North America" but a geo-historical one. And the term "Northern Epirotes" is applied for those who come from there.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Good! So you see it was a region that had its own identity, inside the wider geographical region of Epirus. So, as you confirm, it is a historical-geographical region within Epirus, so Alexikoua's arguments have a basis.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
What about deleting Cham Albanians then??-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This dispute shouldn't even be about the name, it should be about simplifying Wikipedia articles and making them as comprehensible and accurate to our readers as possible. Having two separate articles discussing the same population is pointless and only leads to confusion. Northern Epirotes comprise the Greek minority of Albania and the Greek minority of Albania constitutes Northern Epirotes. Period. It doesn't matter how many years Northern Epirus was autonomous, the name itself was used way before the advent of modern Balkan-induced identity politics. Even though official names of regions and populations are helpful, it is our job as users to keep things simple. We can't have separate articles talking about the same thing just because one of them has to show an official name while the other has to show an unofficial name. It's all bureaucratic bullshit that is unnecessary in improving articles and improving the quality of the overall community. Deucalionite ( talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
But thats the problem 'Greek minority in Albania' does not equals with 'N. epirotes'. How should we call the Diaspora? 'x Greek minority of Albania? There are at least 200.000 people that live outside Albania now. And how should we call the people that lived before the creation of the Albanian state in this region (1913)?
There is a list of notable personalities in the 'N epirus' article, that in my opinion should be in an article like this, and not 'N. epirus'. But many of these personalities were either diaspora or lived before 1913.
On the other hand I dont understand why the article inst called 'Ethnis Greeks of Albania' but 'Greek minority of Albania' term that is closely related with the Greek minority zone of the 99 villages (something that has no legal basis according to the Albanian constitution according to Helsinki watch) Alexikoua ( talk) 18:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 15:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Suppose to move it 'Greeks in Albania' like ' Macedonians in Albania', is a possible solution. We will include then a paragraph explaining, who are included in this term and how they are named by every side, both official and unofficially Alexikoua ( talk) 11:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
who on hell is de_rapper and where is his source? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
'The new Albanian migration' in Nicola May, read Gregoric too. I was sure you didn't read the sources. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC
I've add it in F.Ps.
According to your approach the 'Cham Albanians' article should be deleted, its doesnt' state pages nowhere in the sources.
Alexikoua (
talk)
14:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Dont say that, sayd about possivble Greek descent. Read on page 84-85.
The entire text of de rapper [ [2]]
Greek communities in Albania? What on hell is this. I see that you created this page only in order to copy Albanian communities in Greece, but this isn`t the case. I will let you to make it a terrible page as you like it, and then I will come back, making it npov. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Of course, there should be no article Albanian communities in Greece and no article Greek communities in Albania. Both titles seem political if not irredentist. Politis ( talk) 18:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Greek are the biggest investor in Albania, this has created many Greek communities around Albania, Tirana and south of Tirana. But both titles should be removed. Politis ( talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I think someone here is playing political games here and mixing cheese and chalk. We are mixing immigrant Albanians (many of whom were refugees from the Greek communities in Albania) and Chams. They have their articles, that is enough. It is reasonable to say, no Greek communities, no Albanian communities. Politis ( talk) 18:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the Greek migration policy many Vlachs are considered omogeneis, we have other community. A third are the 'filogreks' (New Albanian immigration), of unclear origin, but closely related with the official minority. According to 'the alb. new migration', actually the 'filogreks' was used by Albanian bibliography to define pro-Greeks that didnt belonged to the official minority. For example, its says that some villages in Lunhxery were full of 'filogrek'.
These people are called in Albanian propaganda filogrek and seem to have been powerful enough at some times to force pro-Albanian families to leave Lunxhëri. It the interwar period for instance, the village of Selckë is said to have been ‘full of filogrek’
see also [ [3]]
About the Vlachs: [ [4]]
Religion, as a criterion of classification, automatically places all the Albanian Aromanians, and also those people who call themselves Albanian Orthodox, into the „Greek minority.“
Alexikoua ( talk) 18:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
the albos are special and didnt go thru normal nationbuilding processes like all peoples 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 18:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it says about fluid indentities, some call them Albanian some filogreks. The entire paper focuses on how fluid the identities are ('better than muslims not as good as greeks'), reading all the text gives complex arguements. Did you read about the intermarriages with Greeks?
Alexikoua (
talk)
18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
What are u talking about? its over? give me a break. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Suppose you agree with the filogrek term, which is the main point Alexikoua ( talk) 18:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
nothing? when someone has a Greek mother what is he/she? suppose the stronger albania dna is prevailing. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
calm down peeps lol 85.74.200.72 ( talk)
the entire text says about fluid identities, even the title. However it depends how u see the world at general. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
you are copy-pasting certain setences. see the text as one body. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, according to you, Lunx. are pure Albanias (what albanian communist propanga says), however we have intermarriages with Lunx. and Greeks. Also the term 'filogrek' is a syntactical error of Albanian bibliograpgy Alexikoua ( talk) 19:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Just as the Vlachs present
[179] themselves as ‘Greek-Vlachs’, most of the Lunxhots and, although with less ease, the
Muslims who migrate to Greece pretend to be Greeks, or of Greek origin, or at least
Christians. It is interesting to note however that, due to the very limited number of
intermarriages with Vlachs and to the generally bad reputation the Vlachs have in the area,
the Lunxhots do not claim a Greek identity through an invented Vlach identity, but rather
directly, through intermarriage with the Greek minority members in Dropull, Pogon and
Sarandë.
Also it says somewhere that Lunx. are from the Chaonian- a pure Illyrian-Albanian- tribe (statement by a schollar from Tirana) Alexikoua ( talk) 19:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
im not sure what you guysre arguing...the paper shows how identity is constructed in that area.,that chaon statement is there to explain that soem albanians attempt to give 'scientific reality' to the 'autochthon' lunx identity 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 19:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
'balkanians word or bw' is right here the paper says that the 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian and seperate from the greek identity some 'acquire' thru intermarriage or the greekvlach identity...cut it out alex lol of course there are greks and greek vlachs like the paper says...just this specific 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian..its a bit like calling greeks of epirus 'ipirotes' and the albanians 'alvani tis ipiru' and not epirotes too here in greece i guess.. 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 19:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
"Lunxotes (some of them are my friends)". And so what?? My grandmother is from Souli and we know for good we're not and have never been Albanians, yet you decide we are. Of course, I forgot that people of "Albanian DNA: The oldest DNA of the Balkans" are always based on NPOV.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 20:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually it' s never said that 'filogrek' was wrong a defination, that's your opinion:
'The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory.' You know what you say? Did we read a different document?
that's your personal assumption anyway. I've said yeasterday that there is a distiction about 'Northern Epirotes' definition of the Greek migration organization and 'official Greek minority' of the Albanian state. de rapper says about filogreks (he didnt say that there weren't filogreks) and Gregoric gives the definition of the two terms. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
chaones are greek not illyrians. lunxotes make shit up: "i'm greek but i'm not greek cause i'm albanian like chaones". good time for laughing. 71.172.193.96 ( talk) 23:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
the text says that this assumption is made by an Albanian intelectual, it is not the author's conclusion, like some others assumptions about national purity. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
yea, but luxotes think they are autoctonos (greek word). maybe they are 'secret greeks'. still think de rapper paper is a glass of crapola cola. 96.225.117.137 ( talk) 01:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Has there been any consensus for this move [ [5]] I really don't think so ...-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 15:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Why did you revert Greeks in Albania to Greek communities in Albania. Are they Greeks or not? If yes, Greeks in Albania for sure is totally NPOV. Nobody exept wiki uses Greek communities in Albania, while Greeks in Albania is commonly used. Per Wikipedia:Search engine test and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Greek communities in Albania is totally irrelevant. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The concept is that we have more than one groups here are of Greek origin, Greek communities incorporates the official minority, the ones that have not minority rights, also the ones the were exiled in central and northern albania (ca. 100.000 according to minahan) and the helleno-vlachs. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
oh no, central & northern albania, mostly Tirana, Durres. I'm ok 'Greeks in Albania' (doesn't change the meaning, like adding the 'minority' term) make the move. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
About the 4th paragraph of the organizations section of this article:
-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 15:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Have you read WP:RS? How can you put as a RS, newspapers, without at least stating that greek newspapers state that.... Of course is not a RS a newspaper with the title "υπουργείο Εξω(φρεν)ικών", and per WP:RS, comments or read it "ΣΧΟΛΙΟ" as Kathimerinis should not be used.19:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
There are 3 different sources that state facts the fact is undisputed by the writer terefore he reports it and then proceeds with his comment - ΣΧΟΛΙΟ. I don't appreciate the way that you are trying to discredit my contributions. I have never made bad faith edits like you are doing right now. Please back off-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 19:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Cia factbook reports that according to 1989 based estimations the number of Greek minority in ALbania is 95,000. The same as Roudolf. You are adding this number to the population of Greek minority of Albania that lives today in Greece. But this cannot be done, since in 1989, from which this autohrs make their estimations, there was no member of the minority in Greece. All of them were in Albania, and all of them counted 95,000 to 150,000. You cannot add them to each other, cause the members of the minority that live in Greece are just a part of this population. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers the situation is very tough. The minimum number in Albania is 35.000 (2001) and the maximum 400.000, but both of them are disputed. On the other hand the number of them in Greece (189.000) incorporates only those that still retain Albanian citizenship. So, noone knows an excact number for sure. I suggest to live it that way, unless a rs comes in handy (or a new census). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
According to official data, there are still the 189.000 (2008) in Greece and 35.000 (2001) in Albania right? Could be a nice minimum (224.000), considering that there was not too much migration towards Greece that period from ethnic Greeks (2001-2008), see p. 11: [ [6]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
So this is a close approach to avoid number them twice, right?. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
[ [7]] p.11 says stats on present minorities (could be 2008) Alexikoua ( talk) 22:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that it schould be maximum, these are official number about the same year (2008), but at least there is a number of them that have swiched to Greek citizenship (Pyrros Dimas for example) not to mention a diaspora (especially the ones that moved before the communist regime). P. Ruches talks about 15.000 famillies in America, but that was in 1965.
Also the number in Albania (35.000) doesnt take into account Himara region (the report gives a very small number in the 1989-most propably does the same with the 2008 estimate- census about the entire Vlore district, ca. 200). I believe the maximum schould be raised more than 224.000 Alexikoua ( talk) 22:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
GHM says that "Greeks of Albania", obviously including all the members of the minority (even the ones in Greece). In every case I would not be enthusiastic about using GHM reports (as I did not include it in Cham Albanians), because it is a ideological organization.
Balkanian`s word (
talk)
17:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers, Winnifrith gives 60.000 (2002). Another source is minahan (he shows his sources too) giving (2002) [ [12]]: 196.000 (36% of 547.000) and for Vlachs 82.000 (15% of 547.000) (counting them together to 280.000). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, you do not hear. Every Albanian citizien is a member of the electorate, not the inhabitants. Albanian citiziens living in Greece, form too part of the electorate. Alewxikouas source is not Winfrieth it is "Encyclopedia of the stateless nations". A tertiary source, WP:RS. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992 parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations. In fact, in the above-mentioned elections, the Human Rights Union took 49,000 votes in the parliamentarian ones and 56,000 in the local ones, despite the lower participation in the latter. These votes correspond to a 3%-4% of the total electorate. If we relate these percentages to the population (Albania today had almost 3,5 million inhabitants), the electoral scores of the minority party leads to an estimate of about 100,000-140,000 persons. Of course, some of the Human Rights Union voters are not Greeks, but, on the other hand, some minority members voted for other parties (which elected 4 Greek deputies). Taking into account all these facts, one may conclude that the Greeks of Albania number almost 150,000. In the 300,000-400,000 figure which the Greek side asserts, all Vlachs and some Orthodox Albanians are obviously included."
Pettifer in The Greeks: the land and people since the war. (1993) says about 200.000. See also the last page on this: [ [14]] (Winnifrith), gives some estimates. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Pettifer may be a RS, as Winfrith too, but there should not be a kakofoni between the total number and the numbers in Albania and Greece. Pettifer and Winfrith as well as the GHM report, speak about 1993-1994, when the number of immigrants was away too small comparing to today. Some of them are counting twice. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, just unswer on my question above. 3,500 cited from GHM is the number of the citiziens not excluding immigrants. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Youre making noise as always. Read the population fo Albania before immigration started [ [15]. It was 3,335,000 in 1991. In 1994, was 3,500 the total number of albanian citiziens. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Look Cia factbook of 1994. It says that the population of Albania is 3,374,085 and the Net migration rate: -5.27 migrant(s)/1,000 population. With 1,21% population growth. Sum them up and you`ll see the total number of albanian citiziens. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, because as you say Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, and the right to vote has every single Albanian citizen, ofcourse including those immigrants. Why then, the GHM report, confront this number (150,000), with the number given by Omonia (400,000) which includes all members of the minority? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 22:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And by the way: No, I too think that 35,000 is not the accquarate number, but 150,000 is far away too much, more than Omonia pretends. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 23:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"PEOPLE Population: 3,285,224 (July 1992), growth rate 1.1% (1992)
Birth rate: 23 births/1,000 population (1992)
Death rate: 5 deaths/1,000 population (1992)
Net migration rate: --6 migrants/1,000 population (1992) "
Only, 18,000 immigrants had left Albania. So you`re obvioulsy out of the way, on your interpretation. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 23:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I dont see why not mention the estimates by Northern Epirote organizations adopted by Minahan (280.000), excactly same situation whith Chams and Vickers. It has a logical basis counting only the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece, plus the Vlachs (self called HellenoVlachs) Alexikoua ( talk) 09:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I searched on Google-books the book of Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer (1997). Albania: from anarchy to a Balkan identity. Neither Korçë[ [19]] nor Korça [ [20]] were mentioned in that book. See for yourself. Guildenrich ( talk) 20:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The source states in p. 187: [ [21]], ...there was bitter inter ethnic conflict in the minority region of Korca and Gjirokaster.
Minority region is a region were a minority exists, here the Greek since the specific section in book deals with them. This book isn't the only one that states that about Korca, but it is characteristic since Vickers has been repeatedly accused of being clearly pro-Albanian. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Panajot Pano was an Albanian, not a Greek. Read the article. He was of Greek origins, but per his article he is Albanian. I find this edit to be POV. -- Sulmues Let's talk 19:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
He was Albanian of Greek origin, or else Greek-Albanian. The removal from a "Greeks in Albania" list, including those of ancestral descent as per userbox, is still unexplained. I suggest, in similar cases, you initiate a discussion in order to avoid misunderstanding. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanas Vaja, called by Greeks Thanasis Vagias, is Albanian from Lekli. See [ [22]] Those who most confidentially surround his person are Albanians [...] the individual whose influence with the Vizier is most powerful and decided, is Athanasius Bia [...] a native of Lekli. Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c: during the years 1812 and 1813 p. 196.
Where did you read that Athanasios Vagias is Albanian in this book? It's nothing like that. If someone was born in modern Albania this doesn't necessary mean that he is Albanian. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Since the above book didn't clarify if he was Greek or not (although only the Greek form of his name is mentioned) there is also this: [ [23]], [ [24]] and [ [25]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I know the title is Greeks in Albania, which I understand as Greeks who live or have lived in what is today Albania. So I simply suggest George Tenet, former director of the CIA because through his mother his has roots in southern Albania. One more point. One hundred years ago, the allegiances between Othodox and Muslims were different, even though they belonged to a cultural continuum. For instance, if they landed today in a football match between Albania and Greece, each would support the Muslim side or the Orthodox side. But if we told them that the teams represented countries and not faiths, I am not sure who they would support. They might even walk out of the match in disgust in search of the cultural continuum. However, in a match between an Albano-Greek team and Turkey, I have no doubt who they would support. Politis ( talk) 09:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I think we remove all links who cite the book in Wikipedia. In Google books no preview. The Northern Epirote polyphonic tradition, with links in ancient Greek music, stil alive today, is of considerable musicological interest and merit as a performing act[27]. [ Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization]. M. V. Sakellariou. Ekdotike Athenon, 1997. ISBN 9789602133712, p. 418. This shows only picture below:
I cant understand anything from book. |Says only "and charity associations of this period particulary in the provinces coveredn a wide variety of the peeds of the inhah- of the inhabitants of Northern Epirus is handed down from generation to ganeration through the unwritten."
Stupidus Maximus ( talk) 11:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The wrong snippet is uploaded, the right is here [ [29]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
There was an RSN on Vickers, so I expect all users to follow the result of that RSN and not remove her work-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I was reverted in zero time with this explanation [ [33]]. However I don't see why this can by justified 'research made by a Greek', actually the source says 'according to official data'. So far the only official data is the 1989 census conducted by a totallitarian regime and which is highly questioned.
It's really sad we have to recycle the same discussions again and again but we can't avoid blind revert strategies by specific members. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You can't add the same population twice, because a higher estimate of c. 200,000 can't exist in both countries without mentioning the fact that you don't even know how many people don't have Albanian citizenship anymore. Btw I may ask for uninvolved intervention.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Also the official census in Greece says 200k so the number in both Greece and Albania can't be less than 200k (?) Alexikoua ( talk) 11:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I never said that you were vandalizing and as for irc activity admins have told me about your attempts to get me banned as a sock when I signed up. You added the same estimations twice so please don't make or deductions about them. Btw per RSN we should also include the 40,000 estimation of Vickers.- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)It's not different because I didn't change the highest estimate. The highest estimate is c.200k only when used for both countries. Of course in a few months all estimates will be removed since data on ethnicity will be collected.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Please don't make or deductions about a minimum being 189k, when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k. Btw if you don't any other source except for the partisan source of Ruches for the 15k in the USA I'll remove it per WP:RS. Of course crystal ball doesn't refer to EU funded and scheduled events. Your up to 189k in Greece can't be on the article at the same time with the up to 200k in Albania. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua you're insisting on one or deduction and I'm trying to explain to you why you can't add two c.200k estimates. Btw I'll remove Ruches partisan estimates if you don't have another source.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
In Albania | In Greece | Greece+Albania (double counted) | Greece+Albania (not double counted) | Zjarri's claim |
---|---|---|---|---|
60k-200k | 189k | 189k-200k | 249k-389k | 60k-200k |
It's easy to understand that the last option is out of reality. So, I'm waiting for third part input. Also there is no source that claiming that Northern Epirotes were counted both as living in Greece and Albania (column 3 needs a source, else we have col. 4) Alexikoua ( talk) 15:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)389k. is c.400k, so you're actually trying to add the opinions of Greek nationalists. Btw I created a new version and you can't add same estimations twice. Alexikoua take this to RfC and try getting a consensus, since you want another opinion.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
He was born in a village with a similar name in modern Anatoli municipality [41]. Btw I was sure that he definitely wasn't born in modern Albania, because I've had the chance to see some of his maps, in which the term Chameria is used.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't say municipality. Also the only village in Epirus region called Georgoutsates is in Dropull (also read the relevant talkpage in which I give additional refs and explanations). Alexikoua ( talk) 12:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
What's really important here is the only placename called Georgoutsats/Jorgucat in Epirus is in Dropull, which makes the case more than clear. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
By a quick look in google seems we have plenty of material, for example this part [ [45]] (published by one of the most reliable publishing houses in Greece) says about the 'Northern Epirote' Kosmas Thesprotian. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You brought that nationalist source and Karipidis's blog e-istoria has copy/pasted texts from all kinds of fringe authors. As for arguments: Pandektis says that that village was in Thesprotia and there's no rs saying the opposite.--
If you can't search on a database there is also [ [47]] (a 19th century based catalog). There is only 1 Georgoutsates in p. 34. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Athenean shouldn't remove relevant sourced information because he considers it off-topic. Throughout it is mentioned that Orthodox Albanians went to the Greek language schools, but there must be some context for that, otherwise it is implied that they didn't want to be taught in their own language and chose another one.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
That can be added. But your previous additions should be removed, otherwise it would be SYNTH. Athenean ( talk) 20:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Athenean
When you say that this article is about the Greeks of Northern Epirus and not about the Orthodox Albanians too, you are just lying and u know it very well. The process of assimilation through the greek orthodox church and greek schools were enormus.So if you search for Greeks in Korytsa,you cannot find not even one indigenous greek speaking man (with greek as mother language).In 1912-1913 they were many albanian speaking Orthodox people who intentified themselves as Greeks but i am not sure if they still exist.
This sentence is totally misleading: "However, in the northernmost districts of Berat and Durrës, the above numbers do not reflect the ethnological distribution, because a large number of students were Orthodox Albanians.[37]" Orthodox Albanians were also the students in korce,in kolonje ,in Leskoviki,premeti and Tepeleni.If they had ,many of them greek consiousness due to the greek education and church , it is true.But their mother tongue was not the greek language.I just want to say someone a name,just a name of a greek speaking village in korytsa or tepeleni region.
Say it openly , Athenean,that when we speak about Greeks in Northern Epirus we dont mean only greek speaking people but also albanian speaking who identified as greeks. Christakis Zografos was one of them. Lysus.KT ( talk) 13:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I came to this page randomly, and should note that the article is pretty inconsistent and contains original research.
Please can someone neither of Albania or Greece affiliations review the article? I don't want to start flame wars. Every single time someone talks about either of the 2 topics affected users (the 2 factions) start throwing stuff at each other. (Like what's happening above) -- eagle al 02:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Removed information on Greek Americans and also old sources (Pettifer), which come from the 1990s. The latest census should be sufficient for an encyclopaedic article, otherwise wikipedia will be a blog. StefanHaurja ( talk) 19:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
His origin was from Epirus, Ioannina, inside Greece.
Does there exist a separate Greek dialect in Argyrokastro/Gjirokaster, different than this of Dropoli/Dropull dialect(s) and the rest of N.Epirus ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melaneas ( talk • contribs) 13:01, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Per reference (PappasNicholas) there is a wide variety of dialects and dialectal groups in Northern Epirus, even from village to village.
Alexikoua (
talk)
13:19, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
But we need sources too- don't we? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melaneas ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
But here in Greece, issues about our language -including other things like our history and religion- are not that important to most of us nowadays. Our dialects are dying. The younger generations ,almost everywhere, mainly only learn Standard Greek. Therefore, it will not be easy to find info about Northern Epirote dialects either. Melaneas ( talk) 17:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I found this though too: https://vi.scribd.com/document/177312109/Doris-Kyriazis-Aristotelis-Spyrou-The-Greek-Dialects-of-Albania Or else, this is the book: Κυριαζής, Δ. & Σπύρου, Α. 2011. «Τα ελληνικά γλωσσικά ιδιώματα της Αλβανίας». Νεοελληνική Διαλεκτολογία VI. Αθήνα: ΚΕΝΔΙ Ακαδημίας Αθηνών, 175-199. Melaneas ( talk) 20:50, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
(Gjirokastër) and Delvino (Delvinë) in Southern Albania, the Dryinopolis (Buliarata) district (?), Pogoni... -The story of pu: The grammaticalisation in space and time of a Modern Greek complementiser, p. 504. link fixed now). To sum up in Gjirokaster district at least 3 distinct idioms are spoken. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Where is that? First time I hear it and I can't find it on google. Melaneas ( talk) 08:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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No, Alexikoua [ [50]], despite your claim, I did in fact explain the removal in my edit summary here [ [51]]. The material is totally irrelevant to the modern minority. We have stuff about ancient times, in areas like Apollonia, blablabla. This is about history. All history (of religion). It has nothing more to do with the situations of modern Greek families living in the areas of Gjirokastra, Himara, etc, than it does with their Albanian and Aromanian neighbors. Therefore it belongs in Religion in Albania-- where I moved all the material. If you want to have an actually relevant section about the role of the Orthodox Church in the lives of the Greek minority and their representation within it, be my guest, but not this offtopic blurb.-- Yalens ( talk) 16:28, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
claim that Appollonia wasn't Greek in the Middle Ages, I said it was dubious and that we had no source stating this. The fact is that we simply do not know the exact ethnic identity of it's residents during the time period. The surrounding regions had signs of Albanian, Aromanian, Western Romance and Slavic settlement at various points in the Middle Ages-- not so much Greek. Fascinating map you posted but that details ancient times, not medieval times, and quite interestingly Apollonia's location, in southern Fier district, is actually not included in the Epirus Vetus blue region. Yes of course Dropull, Vurg, Pogon etc are okay and unlike some Albanian commentators I have demonstrated on many times that I think Himara and Narta are fine too. "Greek speaking bishopric" means nothing, as Greek was the liturgical language of all Orthodox Christians. Yes architecture is fascinating, but does it belong on a page specifically about ethnic Greeks in Albania? It's either (a) off-topic or (b) making a subtle implicit claim that Greeks alone are responsible for building such structures, but the region was multiethnic and you have to avoid that sort of stuff especially for historically disputed regions that are still the subject of interethnic discord. If there's any architecture it must be limited to the places detailed above to avoid the page coming off as chauvinist, and sure, compromise, Moscopolea is fine too (I never argued against Moscopole) as there is plenty of sourcing for the Greek presence there (although one must also acknowledge the presence of large numbers of Aromanians and Albanians in Moscopole). Not Vithkuq though, as you seem to have conceded. I'm fine with keeping just the Labova church picture as scenery, it's pretty, sure, compromise on that. -- Yalens ( talk) 23:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
@Alexikoua, the article on Apollonia cites the Greek presence (in addition to the Illyrian) from its ancient founding until its demise as a city in late antiquity. A new nearby settlement was founded: Pojan and no source to date (i may corrected) cites a continuous Greek presence in the new settlement (it only refers to a Christian one). Its POV having Apollonia (in addition to Kosine and Labove -both Orthodox Albanian villages) in here regarding the epoch of Byzantine rule and the construction of Orthodox churches as being outright Greek heritage (as i refered to the issue in my previous comment). Otherwise Roman buildings are Italian, Islam and all mosques are Arab etc, etc and the classic example in this context that all Orthodox Albanians and so on in Albania are Greek (something which that Ruches source goes on about -i have read and have access to the book), hence the POV is never ending. In any case Byzantine rule only returned to the area sporadically over the centuries between the Slavic migrations until the dawn of the last millennium when it arrived proper. Making assumptions on Hammond is original research based on how other 'experienced editors have gone about things regarding Albania related topics and removal on content - what makes this article special waiting for a expansion that may not happen?. Otherwise we are not being precise, Alexikoua. There is also no page number or inline to double check for Ruches regarding this matter about churches ! Resnjari ( talk) 19:50, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
The magnitude of the once legendary pilgrimage at the church of Upper Labova is implied in two Epirotan traditions. First, that many feasts held in Epirus are called with the name ‘Labovo’ (Greek version of ‘Labova’); second that tradition held in several churches celevrating the Nativity of the Virgin to call the visit of petty traders and musicians in ther places with the expression “Labovo came’(in Greek ‘irthe to Labovo), allegedly a remnant from the olf tradition of the procession of Labova’s Holy Cross and the old ican of the Virgin... (concluding) It is thanks to its established reputation, however, as well as to its monumental architectural and artistic reputation... that this church was saved from destruction in the course of the atheist communist regime.
I assume that this warrants inclusion in the article (at least at the text). About the preferred picture: although the katholikon of the Zvernec monastery is of great historical value but the architectural features of the Labova church are unique in local architecture (especially the circular dome and its decoration). Another good option would be to have a double image of St. Nicholas of Mesopotam (with its unique style double apse) and Labova, but all available St. Nicholas images in commons are ugly (the only decent one is a black-white pic). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:30, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Christianity spread in the late Roman Empire, and throughout much of Medieval and Modern history, the Christian faith has been a significant part of the identity of Greeks in what became Albania and elsewhere. After the
Great Schism, Albania was divided between the Western (Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) rites, with much of the Southern regions where Greeks resided being loyal to the Orthodox rite. During the Ottoman era, the Orthodox population, to which most Greeks belonged, was treated according to the Ottoman
millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens who received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In Himara, during part of this period, the local Greek population were Catholics of the Eastern rite due to alliances with Western and Catholic European powers
[1], although they reverted to Greek Orthodoxy ultimately.
Kosmas of Aetolia, a Greek from Aetolia in what became modern Greece, traveled across much of Southern Albania in a mission to preserve the Orthodox faith there, and was executed as a Russian agent in the process.
[2] Due to reforms in the late Ottoman Empire and its ultimate collapse, legal discrimination against Christians in favor of Muslims was reduced and ceased entirely in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Under
Communism in Albania, the Orthodox faith adhered to by most ethnic Greeks was banned entirely alongside the other religious faiths all over the country, starting in 1967, although some private practice survived
[3]; the ban was lifted in 1990 just in time for Christians to observe traditional Christmas rites.
[4]
was part of the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Orthodox Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In the communism sentence remove the first "all" at (alongside
was treated according to the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. Thanks, in addition to the NPOV issue you pointed out, this text is also better as it is more informative anyways with the link to millet. I changed it to just "Christians"; we can't imply that Catholics weren't also affected, in fact many argue that in practice they bore more of the brunt than the Orthodox.-- Yalens ( talk) 18:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
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(
help).
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I will work on the article... Just started on it. Feel free to help out! Thanx! Pel thal ( talk) 19:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The term is really confusing, the historical right term would be 'Northern Epirotes', according to the geographic area that are concentrated. History section also proves that. There wasn't an Albanian state before 1913, and we are starting from antiquity, on the other hand the term Epirus seems historically and geographically (because of the populations concentration in the south part of Albania, a.k.a. north part of Epirus) more accurate. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree. The article's title should better be Northern Epirotes (like Chameria=>Cham Albanians, Aegean Macedonia=>Aegean Macedonians). Greek minority in Albania should be ranamed to Northern Epirotes.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 15:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Strongly disagree The Greek Minority in Albania is the official term, even in Greece. (see [1]) This is not the case of Cham Albanians, because the majority of them are not living any more in Greece and do not have greek citizienship. Every minority in the world has such a name. Albanians in Macedonia, Greeks in Turkey, etc. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
In that case, we should make another article for Northern Epirotes.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 16:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
These people have their own cultural identity not only inside Albania but in Greece too. There exist a 200.000 diaspora of them (according to official sources) in Greece today, and many cultural and folkloric organizations are created by them. It sounds a little wierd to call them in Greece 'Former members of the ethnic Greek minority of Albania that live in Greece now' or just 'former minotirity members of Albania'. We need a name that incorporates both the people residing in Albania and the diaspora. I mean why shouldn't we call them the way they call themselves? We can create a seperate paragraph stating the names they are called (the official, and the one that selfindentify themselves). Another solution would be to move to 'Northern Epirot Greeks' like the Pontic Greeks.
Greeks from Turkey are also called according to their geographical origin ( Pontic Greeks from Pontus, Polites from Constantinople and Mikrasiates from Asia minor). People of Albanian origin in Italy are called 'Arberesh' not Albanians of Italy, thats because they have their own cultural indentity, history, dialect, have their diaspora and are called by they name they call themselves. It gets really confusing giving the name of a country's minority, without accepting their name which is part of their identity. I believe, if we give an carefull npov approach to the article, we can find a common view. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
That Northern part, however, is almost 100 years in the other side of the borders and is not just the northern part. Th term Northern Epirus is widely applied. Do not forget that it was at a point an independent that had the exact name, so it is not just a geographical term as "North America" but a geo-historical one. And the term "Northern Epirotes" is applied for those who come from there.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Good! So you see it was a region that had its own identity, inside the wider geographical region of Epirus. So, as you confirm, it is a historical-geographical region within Epirus, so Alexikoua's arguments have a basis.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
What about deleting Cham Albanians then??-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
This dispute shouldn't even be about the name, it should be about simplifying Wikipedia articles and making them as comprehensible and accurate to our readers as possible. Having two separate articles discussing the same population is pointless and only leads to confusion. Northern Epirotes comprise the Greek minority of Albania and the Greek minority of Albania constitutes Northern Epirotes. Period. It doesn't matter how many years Northern Epirus was autonomous, the name itself was used way before the advent of modern Balkan-induced identity politics. Even though official names of regions and populations are helpful, it is our job as users to keep things simple. We can't have separate articles talking about the same thing just because one of them has to show an official name while the other has to show an unofficial name. It's all bureaucratic bullshit that is unnecessary in improving articles and improving the quality of the overall community. Deucalionite ( talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
But thats the problem 'Greek minority in Albania' does not equals with 'N. epirotes'. How should we call the Diaspora? 'x Greek minority of Albania? There are at least 200.000 people that live outside Albania now. And how should we call the people that lived before the creation of the Albanian state in this region (1913)?
There is a list of notable personalities in the 'N epirus' article, that in my opinion should be in an article like this, and not 'N. epirus'. But many of these personalities were either diaspora or lived before 1913.
On the other hand I dont understand why the article inst called 'Ethnis Greeks of Albania' but 'Greek minority of Albania' term that is closely related with the Greek minority zone of the 99 villages (something that has no legal basis according to the Albanian constitution according to Helsinki watch) Alexikoua ( talk) 18:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
( talk) 15:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Suppose to move it 'Greeks in Albania' like ' Macedonians in Albania', is a possible solution. We will include then a paragraph explaining, who are included in this term and how they are named by every side, both official and unofficially Alexikoua ( talk) 11:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
who on hell is de_rapper and where is his source? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
'The new Albanian migration' in Nicola May, read Gregoric too. I was sure you didn't read the sources. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC
I've add it in F.Ps.
According to your approach the 'Cham Albanians' article should be deleted, its doesnt' state pages nowhere in the sources.
Alexikoua (
talk)
14:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Dont say that, sayd about possivble Greek descent. Read on page 84-85.
The entire text of de rapper [ [2]]
Greek communities in Albania? What on hell is this. I see that you created this page only in order to copy Albanian communities in Greece, but this isn`t the case. I will let you to make it a terrible page as you like it, and then I will come back, making it npov. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Of course, there should be no article Albanian communities in Greece and no article Greek communities in Albania. Both titles seem political if not irredentist. Politis ( talk) 18:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Greek are the biggest investor in Albania, this has created many Greek communities around Albania, Tirana and south of Tirana. But both titles should be removed. Politis ( talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I think someone here is playing political games here and mixing cheese and chalk. We are mixing immigrant Albanians (many of whom were refugees from the Greek communities in Albania) and Chams. They have their articles, that is enough. It is reasonable to say, no Greek communities, no Albanian communities. Politis ( talk) 18:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
According to the Greek migration policy many Vlachs are considered omogeneis, we have other community. A third are the 'filogreks' (New Albanian immigration), of unclear origin, but closely related with the official minority. According to 'the alb. new migration', actually the 'filogreks' was used by Albanian bibliography to define pro-Greeks that didnt belonged to the official minority. For example, its says that some villages in Lunhxery were full of 'filogrek'.
These people are called in Albanian propaganda filogrek and seem to have been powerful enough at some times to force pro-Albanian families to leave Lunxhëri. It the interwar period for instance, the village of Selckë is said to have been ‘full of filogrek’
see also [ [3]]
About the Vlachs: [ [4]]
Religion, as a criterion of classification, automatically places all the Albanian Aromanians, and also those people who call themselves Albanian Orthodox, into the „Greek minority.“
Alexikoua ( talk) 18:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
the albos are special and didnt go thru normal nationbuilding processes like all peoples 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 18:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it says about fluid indentities, some call them Albanian some filogreks. The entire paper focuses on how fluid the identities are ('better than muslims not as good as greeks'), reading all the text gives complex arguements. Did you read about the intermarriages with Greeks?
Alexikoua (
talk)
18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
What are u talking about? its over? give me a break. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Suppose you agree with the filogrek term, which is the main point Alexikoua ( talk) 18:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
nothing? when someone has a Greek mother what is he/she? suppose the stronger albania dna is prevailing. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
calm down peeps lol 85.74.200.72 ( talk)
the entire text says about fluid identities, even the title. However it depends how u see the world at general. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
you are copy-pasting certain setences. see the text as one body. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:03, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, according to you, Lunx. are pure Albanias (what albanian communist propanga says), however we have intermarriages with Lunx. and Greeks. Also the term 'filogrek' is a syntactical error of Albanian bibliograpgy Alexikoua ( talk) 19:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Just as the Vlachs present
[179] themselves as ‘Greek-Vlachs’, most of the Lunxhots and, although with less ease, the
Muslims who migrate to Greece pretend to be Greeks, or of Greek origin, or at least
Christians. It is interesting to note however that, due to the very limited number of
intermarriages with Vlachs and to the generally bad reputation the Vlachs have in the area,
the Lunxhots do not claim a Greek identity through an invented Vlach identity, but rather
directly, through intermarriage with the Greek minority members in Dropull, Pogon and
Sarandë.
Also it says somewhere that Lunx. are from the Chaonian- a pure Illyrian-Albanian- tribe (statement by a schollar from Tirana) Alexikoua ( talk) 19:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
im not sure what you guysre arguing...the paper shows how identity is constructed in that area.,that chaon statement is there to explain that soem albanians attempt to give 'scientific reality' to the 'autochthon' lunx identity 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 19:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
'balkanians word or bw' is right here the paper says that the 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian and seperate from the greek identity some 'acquire' thru intermarriage or the greekvlach identity...cut it out alex lol of course there are greks and greek vlachs like the paper says...just this specific 'autokton lunx' identity is albanian..its a bit like calling greeks of epirus 'ipirotes' and the albanians 'alvani tis ipiru' and not epirotes too here in greece i guess.. 85.74.200.72 ( talk) 19:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
"Lunxotes (some of them are my friends)". And so what?? My grandmother is from Souli and we know for good we're not and have never been Albanians, yet you decide we are. Of course, I forgot that people of "Albanian DNA: The oldest DNA of the Balkans" are always based on NPOV.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 20:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Actually it' s never said that 'filogrek' was wrong a defination, that's your opinion:
'The paper says that they are accused as "filogreks", but they are not and do not with this theory.' You know what you say? Did we read a different document?
that's your personal assumption anyway. I've said yeasterday that there is a distiction about 'Northern Epirotes' definition of the Greek migration organization and 'official Greek minority' of the Albanian state. de rapper says about filogreks (he didnt say that there weren't filogreks) and Gregoric gives the definition of the two terms. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
chaones are greek not illyrians. lunxotes make shit up: "i'm greek but i'm not greek cause i'm albanian like chaones". good time for laughing. 71.172.193.96 ( talk) 23:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
the text says that this assumption is made by an Albanian intelectual, it is not the author's conclusion, like some others assumptions about national purity. Alexikoua ( talk) 00:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
yea, but luxotes think they are autoctonos (greek word). maybe they are 'secret greeks'. still think de rapper paper is a glass of crapola cola. 96.225.117.137 ( talk) 01:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Has there been any consensus for this move [ [5]] I really don't think so ...-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 15:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Why did you revert Greeks in Albania to Greek communities in Albania. Are they Greeks or not? If yes, Greeks in Albania for sure is totally NPOV. Nobody exept wiki uses Greek communities in Albania, while Greeks in Albania is commonly used. Per Wikipedia:Search engine test and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Greek communities in Albania is totally irrelevant. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
The concept is that we have more than one groups here are of Greek origin, Greek communities incorporates the official minority, the ones that have not minority rights, also the ones the were exiled in central and northern albania (ca. 100.000 according to minahan) and the helleno-vlachs. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
oh no, central & northern albania, mostly Tirana, Durres. I'm ok 'Greeks in Albania' (doesn't change the meaning, like adding the 'minority' term) make the move. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
About the 4th paragraph of the organizations section of this article:
-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 15:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Have you read WP:RS? How can you put as a RS, newspapers, without at least stating that greek newspapers state that.... Of course is not a RS a newspaper with the title "υπουργείο Εξω(φρεν)ικών", and per WP:RS, comments or read it "ΣΧΟΛΙΟ" as Kathimerinis should not be used.19:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
There are 3 different sources that state facts the fact is undisputed by the writer terefore he reports it and then proceeds with his comment - ΣΧΟΛΙΟ. I don't appreciate the way that you are trying to discredit my contributions. I have never made bad faith edits like you are doing right now. Please back off-- Sadbuttrue92 ( talk) 19:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Cia factbook reports that according to 1989 based estimations the number of Greek minority in ALbania is 95,000. The same as Roudolf. You are adding this number to the population of Greek minority of Albania that lives today in Greece. But this cannot be done, since in 1989, from which this autohrs make their estimations, there was no member of the minority in Greece. All of them were in Albania, and all of them counted 95,000 to 150,000. You cannot add them to each other, cause the members of the minority that live in Greece are just a part of this population. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers the situation is very tough. The minimum number in Albania is 35.000 (2001) and the maximum 400.000, but both of them are disputed. On the other hand the number of them in Greece (189.000) incorporates only those that still retain Albanian citizenship. So, noone knows an excact number for sure. I suggest to live it that way, unless a rs comes in handy (or a new census). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
According to official data, there are still the 189.000 (2008) in Greece and 35.000 (2001) in Albania right? Could be a nice minimum (224.000), considering that there was not too much migration towards Greece that period from ethnic Greeks (2001-2008), see p. 11: [ [6]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
So this is a close approach to avoid number them twice, right?. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
[ [7]] p.11 says stats on present minorities (could be 2008) Alexikoua ( talk) 22:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that it schould be maximum, these are official number about the same year (2008), but at least there is a number of them that have swiched to Greek citizenship (Pyrros Dimas for example) not to mention a diaspora (especially the ones that moved before the communist regime). P. Ruches talks about 15.000 famillies in America, but that was in 1965.
Also the number in Albania (35.000) doesnt take into account Himara region (the report gives a very small number in the 1989-most propably does the same with the 2008 estimate- census about the entire Vlore district, ca. 200). I believe the maximum schould be raised more than 224.000 Alexikoua ( talk) 22:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
GHM says that "Greeks of Albania", obviously including all the members of the minority (even the ones in Greece). In every case I would not be enthusiastic about using GHM reports (as I did not include it in Cham Albanians), because it is a ideological organization.
Balkanian`s word (
talk)
17:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
About numbers, Winnifrith gives 60.000 (2002). Another source is minahan (he shows his sources too) giving (2002) [ [12]]: 196.000 (36% of 547.000) and for Vlachs 82.000 (15% of 547.000) (counting them together to 280.000). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, you do not hear. Every Albanian citizien is a member of the electorate, not the inhabitants. Albanian citiziens living in Greece, form too part of the electorate. Alewxikouas source is not Winfrieth it is "Encyclopedia of the stateless nations". A tertiary source, WP:RS. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"Calculations based on the electoral behavior of the minority party Human Rights Union in the March 1992 parliamentarian elections and in the July 1992 local elections leads us to intermediate estimations. In fact, in the above-mentioned elections, the Human Rights Union took 49,000 votes in the parliamentarian ones and 56,000 in the local ones, despite the lower participation in the latter. These votes correspond to a 3%-4% of the total electorate. If we relate these percentages to the population (Albania today had almost 3,5 million inhabitants), the electoral scores of the minority party leads to an estimate of about 100,000-140,000 persons. Of course, some of the Human Rights Union voters are not Greeks, but, on the other hand, some minority members voted for other parties (which elected 4 Greek deputies). Taking into account all these facts, one may conclude that the Greeks of Albania number almost 150,000. In the 300,000-400,000 figure which the Greek side asserts, all Vlachs and some Orthodox Albanians are obviously included."
Pettifer in The Greeks: the land and people since the war. (1993) says about 200.000. See also the last page on this: [ [14]] (Winnifrith), gives some estimates. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Pettifer may be a RS, as Winfrith too, but there should not be a kakofoni between the total number and the numbers in Albania and Greece. Pettifer and Winfrith as well as the GHM report, speak about 1993-1994, when the number of immigrants was away too small comparing to today. Some of them are counting twice. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, just unswer on my question above. 3,500 cited from GHM is the number of the citiziens not excluding immigrants. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Youre making noise as always. Read the population fo Albania before immigration started [ [15]. It was 3,335,000 in 1991. In 1994, was 3,500 the total number of albanian citiziens. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Look Cia factbook of 1994. It says that the population of Albania is 3,374,085 and the Net migration rate: -5.27 migrant(s)/1,000 population. With 1,21% population growth. Sum them up and you`ll see the total number of albanian citiziens. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
No, because as you say Its estimate is based on the electoral performance of Greek minority parties, and the right to vote has every single Albanian citizen, ofcourse including those immigrants. Why then, the GHM report, confront this number (150,000), with the number given by Omonia (400,000) which includes all members of the minority? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 22:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And by the way: No, I too think that 35,000 is not the accquarate number, but 150,000 is far away too much, more than Omonia pretends. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 23:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"PEOPLE Population: 3,285,224 (July 1992), growth rate 1.1% (1992)
Birth rate: 23 births/1,000 population (1992)
Death rate: 5 deaths/1,000 population (1992)
Net migration rate: --6 migrants/1,000 population (1992) "
Only, 18,000 immigrants had left Albania. So you`re obvioulsy out of the way, on your interpretation. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 23:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I dont see why not mention the estimates by Northern Epirote organizations adopted by Minahan (280.000), excactly same situation whith Chams and Vickers. It has a logical basis counting only the 189.000 that are considered omogeneis in Greece, plus the Vlachs (self called HellenoVlachs) Alexikoua ( talk) 09:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I searched on Google-books the book of Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer (1997). Albania: from anarchy to a Balkan identity. Neither Korçë[ [19]] nor Korça [ [20]] were mentioned in that book. See for yourself. Guildenrich ( talk) 20:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The source states in p. 187: [ [21]], ...there was bitter inter ethnic conflict in the minority region of Korca and Gjirokaster.
Minority region is a region were a minority exists, here the Greek since the specific section in book deals with them. This book isn't the only one that states that about Korca, but it is characteristic since Vickers has been repeatedly accused of being clearly pro-Albanian. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Panajot Pano was an Albanian, not a Greek. Read the article. He was of Greek origins, but per his article he is Albanian. I find this edit to be POV. -- Sulmues Let's talk 19:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
He was Albanian of Greek origin, or else Greek-Albanian. The removal from a "Greeks in Albania" list, including those of ancestral descent as per userbox, is still unexplained. I suggest, in similar cases, you initiate a discussion in order to avoid misunderstanding. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanas Vaja, called by Greeks Thanasis Vagias, is Albanian from Lekli. See [ [22]] Those who most confidentially surround his person are Albanians [...] the individual whose influence with the Vizier is most powerful and decided, is Athanasius Bia [...] a native of Lekli. Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c: during the years 1812 and 1813 p. 196.
Where did you read that Athanasios Vagias is Albanian in this book? It's nothing like that. If someone was born in modern Albania this doesn't necessary mean that he is Albanian. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Since the above book didn't clarify if he was Greek or not (although only the Greek form of his name is mentioned) there is also this: [ [23]], [ [24]] and [ [25]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I know the title is Greeks in Albania, which I understand as Greeks who live or have lived in what is today Albania. So I simply suggest George Tenet, former director of the CIA because through his mother his has roots in southern Albania. One more point. One hundred years ago, the allegiances between Othodox and Muslims were different, even though they belonged to a cultural continuum. For instance, if they landed today in a football match between Albania and Greece, each would support the Muslim side or the Orthodox side. But if we told them that the teams represented countries and not faiths, I am not sure who they would support. They might even walk out of the match in disgust in search of the cultural continuum. However, in a match between an Albano-Greek team and Turkey, I have no doubt who they would support. Politis ( talk) 09:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I think we remove all links who cite the book in Wikipedia. In Google books no preview. The Northern Epirote polyphonic tradition, with links in ancient Greek music, stil alive today, is of considerable musicological interest and merit as a performing act[27]. [ Epirus, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization]. M. V. Sakellariou. Ekdotike Athenon, 1997. ISBN 9789602133712, p. 418. This shows only picture below:
I cant understand anything from book. |Says only "and charity associations of this period particulary in the provinces coveredn a wide variety of the peeds of the inhah- of the inhabitants of Northern Epirus is handed down from generation to ganeration through the unwritten."
Stupidus Maximus ( talk) 11:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The wrong snippet is uploaded, the right is here [ [29]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
There was an RSN on Vickers, so I expect all users to follow the result of that RSN and not remove her work-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I was reverted in zero time with this explanation [ [33]]. However I don't see why this can by justified 'research made by a Greek', actually the source says 'according to official data'. So far the only official data is the 1989 census conducted by a totallitarian regime and which is highly questioned.
It's really sad we have to recycle the same discussions again and again but we can't avoid blind revert strategies by specific members. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You can't add the same population twice, because a higher estimate of c. 200,000 can't exist in both countries without mentioning the fact that you don't even know how many people don't have Albanian citizenship anymore. Btw I may ask for uninvolved intervention.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Also the official census in Greece says 200k so the number in both Greece and Albania can't be less than 200k (?) Alexikoua ( talk) 11:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua ( talk) 11:31, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I never said that you were vandalizing and as for irc activity admins have told me about your attempts to get me banned as a sock when I signed up. You added the same estimations twice so please don't make or deductions about them. Btw per RSN we should also include the 40,000 estimation of Vickers.- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)It's not different because I didn't change the highest estimate. The highest estimate is c.200k only when used for both countries. Of course in a few months all estimates will be removed since data on ethnicity will be collected.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Please don't make or deductions about a minimum being 189k, when even Greek scholars say that it's about 60k. Btw if you don't any other source except for the partisan source of Ruches for the 15k in the USA I'll remove it per WP:RS. Of course crystal ball doesn't refer to EU funded and scheduled events. Your up to 189k in Greece can't be on the article at the same time with the up to 200k in Albania. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua you're insisting on one or deduction and I'm trying to explain to you why you can't add two c.200k estimates. Btw I'll remove Ruches partisan estimates if you don't have another source.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
In Albania | In Greece | Greece+Albania (double counted) | Greece+Albania (not double counted) | Zjarri's claim |
---|---|---|---|---|
60k-200k | 189k | 189k-200k | 249k-389k | 60k-200k |
It's easy to understand that the last option is out of reality. So, I'm waiting for third part input. Also there is no source that claiming that Northern Epirotes were counted both as living in Greece and Albania (column 3 needs a source, else we have col. 4) Alexikoua ( talk) 15:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)389k. is c.400k, so you're actually trying to add the opinions of Greek nationalists. Btw I created a new version and you can't add same estimations twice. Alexikoua take this to RfC and try getting a consensus, since you want another opinion.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:35, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
He was born in a village with a similar name in modern Anatoli municipality [41]. Btw I was sure that he definitely wasn't born in modern Albania, because I've had the chance to see some of his maps, in which the term Chameria is used.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't say municipality. Also the only village in Epirus region called Georgoutsates is in Dropull (also read the relevant talkpage in which I give additional refs and explanations). Alexikoua ( talk) 12:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
What's really important here is the only placename called Georgoutsats/Jorgucat in Epirus is in Dropull, which makes the case more than clear. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
By a quick look in google seems we have plenty of material, for example this part [ [45]] (published by one of the most reliable publishing houses in Greece) says about the 'Northern Epirote' Kosmas Thesprotian. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You brought that nationalist source and Karipidis's blog e-istoria has copy/pasted texts from all kinds of fringe authors. As for arguments: Pandektis says that that village was in Thesprotia and there's no rs saying the opposite.--
If you can't search on a database there is also [ [47]] (a 19th century based catalog). There is only 1 Georgoutsates in p. 34. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Athenean shouldn't remove relevant sourced information because he considers it off-topic. Throughout it is mentioned that Orthodox Albanians went to the Greek language schools, but there must be some context for that, otherwise it is implied that they didn't want to be taught in their own language and chose another one.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
That can be added. But your previous additions should be removed, otherwise it would be SYNTH. Athenean ( talk) 20:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Athenean
When you say that this article is about the Greeks of Northern Epirus and not about the Orthodox Albanians too, you are just lying and u know it very well. The process of assimilation through the greek orthodox church and greek schools were enormus.So if you search for Greeks in Korytsa,you cannot find not even one indigenous greek speaking man (with greek as mother language).In 1912-1913 they were many albanian speaking Orthodox people who intentified themselves as Greeks but i am not sure if they still exist.
This sentence is totally misleading: "However, in the northernmost districts of Berat and Durrës, the above numbers do not reflect the ethnological distribution, because a large number of students were Orthodox Albanians.[37]" Orthodox Albanians were also the students in korce,in kolonje ,in Leskoviki,premeti and Tepeleni.If they had ,many of them greek consiousness due to the greek education and church , it is true.But their mother tongue was not the greek language.I just want to say someone a name,just a name of a greek speaking village in korytsa or tepeleni region.
Say it openly , Athenean,that when we speak about Greeks in Northern Epirus we dont mean only greek speaking people but also albanian speaking who identified as greeks. Christakis Zografos was one of them. Lysus.KT ( talk) 13:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I came to this page randomly, and should note that the article is pretty inconsistent and contains original research.
Please can someone neither of Albania or Greece affiliations review the article? I don't want to start flame wars. Every single time someone talks about either of the 2 topics affected users (the 2 factions) start throwing stuff at each other. (Like what's happening above) -- eagle al 02:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Removed information on Greek Americans and also old sources (Pettifer), which come from the 1990s. The latest census should be sufficient for an encyclopaedic article, otherwise wikipedia will be a blog. StefanHaurja ( talk) 19:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
His origin was from Epirus, Ioannina, inside Greece.
Does there exist a separate Greek dialect in Argyrokastro/Gjirokaster, different than this of Dropoli/Dropull dialect(s) and the rest of N.Epirus ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melaneas ( talk • contribs) 13:01, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Per reference (PappasNicholas) there is a wide variety of dialects and dialectal groups in Northern Epirus, even from village to village.
Alexikoua (
talk)
13:19, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
But we need sources too- don't we? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melaneas ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
But here in Greece, issues about our language -including other things like our history and religion- are not that important to most of us nowadays. Our dialects are dying. The younger generations ,almost everywhere, mainly only learn Standard Greek. Therefore, it will not be easy to find info about Northern Epirote dialects either. Melaneas ( talk) 17:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
I found this though too: https://vi.scribd.com/document/177312109/Doris-Kyriazis-Aristotelis-Spyrou-The-Greek-Dialects-of-Albania Or else, this is the book: Κυριαζής, Δ. & Σπύρου, Α. 2011. «Τα ελληνικά γλωσσικά ιδιώματα της Αλβανίας». Νεοελληνική Διαλεκτολογία VI. Αθήνα: ΚΕΝΔΙ Ακαδημίας Αθηνών, 175-199. Melaneas ( talk) 20:50, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
(Gjirokastër) and Delvino (Delvinë) in Southern Albania, the Dryinopolis (Buliarata) district (?), Pogoni... -The story of pu: The grammaticalisation in space and time of a Modern Greek complementiser, p. 504. link fixed now). To sum up in Gjirokaster district at least 3 distinct idioms are spoken. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Where is that? First time I hear it and I can't find it on google. Melaneas ( talk) 08:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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No, Alexikoua [ [50]], despite your claim, I did in fact explain the removal in my edit summary here [ [51]]. The material is totally irrelevant to the modern minority. We have stuff about ancient times, in areas like Apollonia, blablabla. This is about history. All history (of religion). It has nothing more to do with the situations of modern Greek families living in the areas of Gjirokastra, Himara, etc, than it does with their Albanian and Aromanian neighbors. Therefore it belongs in Religion in Albania-- where I moved all the material. If you want to have an actually relevant section about the role of the Orthodox Church in the lives of the Greek minority and their representation within it, be my guest, but not this offtopic blurb.-- Yalens ( talk) 16:28, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
claim that Appollonia wasn't Greek in the Middle Ages, I said it was dubious and that we had no source stating this. The fact is that we simply do not know the exact ethnic identity of it's residents during the time period. The surrounding regions had signs of Albanian, Aromanian, Western Romance and Slavic settlement at various points in the Middle Ages-- not so much Greek. Fascinating map you posted but that details ancient times, not medieval times, and quite interestingly Apollonia's location, in southern Fier district, is actually not included in the Epirus Vetus blue region. Yes of course Dropull, Vurg, Pogon etc are okay and unlike some Albanian commentators I have demonstrated on many times that I think Himara and Narta are fine too. "Greek speaking bishopric" means nothing, as Greek was the liturgical language of all Orthodox Christians. Yes architecture is fascinating, but does it belong on a page specifically about ethnic Greeks in Albania? It's either (a) off-topic or (b) making a subtle implicit claim that Greeks alone are responsible for building such structures, but the region was multiethnic and you have to avoid that sort of stuff especially for historically disputed regions that are still the subject of interethnic discord. If there's any architecture it must be limited to the places detailed above to avoid the page coming off as chauvinist, and sure, compromise, Moscopolea is fine too (I never argued against Moscopole) as there is plenty of sourcing for the Greek presence there (although one must also acknowledge the presence of large numbers of Aromanians and Albanians in Moscopole). Not Vithkuq though, as you seem to have conceded. I'm fine with keeping just the Labova church picture as scenery, it's pretty, sure, compromise on that. -- Yalens ( talk) 23:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
@Alexikoua, the article on Apollonia cites the Greek presence (in addition to the Illyrian) from its ancient founding until its demise as a city in late antiquity. A new nearby settlement was founded: Pojan and no source to date (i may corrected) cites a continuous Greek presence in the new settlement (it only refers to a Christian one). Its POV having Apollonia (in addition to Kosine and Labove -both Orthodox Albanian villages) in here regarding the epoch of Byzantine rule and the construction of Orthodox churches as being outright Greek heritage (as i refered to the issue in my previous comment). Otherwise Roman buildings are Italian, Islam and all mosques are Arab etc, etc and the classic example in this context that all Orthodox Albanians and so on in Albania are Greek (something which that Ruches source goes on about -i have read and have access to the book), hence the POV is never ending. In any case Byzantine rule only returned to the area sporadically over the centuries between the Slavic migrations until the dawn of the last millennium when it arrived proper. Making assumptions on Hammond is original research based on how other 'experienced editors have gone about things regarding Albania related topics and removal on content - what makes this article special waiting for a expansion that may not happen?. Otherwise we are not being precise, Alexikoua. There is also no page number or inline to double check for Ruches regarding this matter about churches ! Resnjari ( talk) 19:50, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
The magnitude of the once legendary pilgrimage at the church of Upper Labova is implied in two Epirotan traditions. First, that many feasts held in Epirus are called with the name ‘Labovo’ (Greek version of ‘Labova’); second that tradition held in several churches celevrating the Nativity of the Virgin to call the visit of petty traders and musicians in ther places with the expression “Labovo came’(in Greek ‘irthe to Labovo), allegedly a remnant from the olf tradition of the procession of Labova’s Holy Cross and the old ican of the Virgin... (concluding) It is thanks to its established reputation, however, as well as to its monumental architectural and artistic reputation... that this church was saved from destruction in the course of the atheist communist regime.
I assume that this warrants inclusion in the article (at least at the text). About the preferred picture: although the katholikon of the Zvernec monastery is of great historical value but the architectural features of the Labova church are unique in local architecture (especially the circular dome and its decoration). Another good option would be to have a double image of St. Nicholas of Mesopotam (with its unique style double apse) and Labova, but all available St. Nicholas images in commons are ugly (the only decent one is a black-white pic). Alexikoua ( talk) 21:30, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Christianity spread in the late Roman Empire, and throughout much of Medieval and Modern history, the Christian faith has been a significant part of the identity of Greeks in what became Albania and elsewhere. After the
Great Schism, Albania was divided between the Western (Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) rites, with much of the Southern regions where Greeks resided being loyal to the Orthodox rite. During the Ottoman era, the Orthodox population, to which most Greeks belonged, was treated according to the Ottoman
millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens who received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In Himara, during part of this period, the local Greek population were Catholics of the Eastern rite due to alliances with Western and Catholic European powers
[1], although they reverted to Greek Orthodoxy ultimately.
Kosmas of Aetolia, a Greek from Aetolia in what became modern Greece, traveled across much of Southern Albania in a mission to preserve the Orthodox faith there, and was executed as a Russian agent in the process.
[2] Due to reforms in the late Ottoman Empire and its ultimate collapse, legal discrimination against Christians in favor of Muslims was reduced and ceased entirely in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Under
Communism in Albania, the Orthodox faith adhered to by most ethnic Greeks was banned entirely alongside the other religious faiths all over the country, starting in 1967, although some private practice survived
[3]; the ban was lifted in 1990 just in time for Christians to observe traditional Christmas rites.
[4]
was part of the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Orthodox Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. In the communism sentence remove the first "all" at (alongside
was treated according to the Ottoman millet system which privileged Muslims and disadvantaged Christians as second class citizens whom received fewer political, social, and economic rights. Thanks, in addition to the NPOV issue you pointed out, this text is also better as it is more informative anyways with the link to millet. I changed it to just "Christians"; we can't imply that Catholics weren't also affected, in fact many argue that in practice they bore more of the brunt than the Orthodox.-- Yalens ( talk) 18:24, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
References
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help).