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The article is protected. Please solve your differences on the talk page, rather than by an edit war, and let me know then the article is ready to be unprotected abakharev 03:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Mitsos 07:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for unprotection. 87.203.237.235 16:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says Turkish forces invaded Izmir (sory so sory, Smyrna, ancient names should be used in Wikipedia,right?)how can an army invade its own lands? The war was totaly against a Greek invasion (and the real Imperialists who created this caos was happily watching this bloody scene they created between two nations) This article should be rewriten (I don't request a sentence like "Turkish army liberated the city" but at least everybody should be aware of that the Turkish army was not a invasion force infact it was struggling against an invasion)-- Hattusili 05:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Izmir is the modern name of the city, by that time it was called Smyrni (English:Smyrna) by it's Greek inhabitants. Also, Smyrna is the English name and this is the English Wikipedia. Mitsos 07:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
You say that this topic is POV, while your opinion ("the truth of the matter is the Greeks in their skirts and pon pon shoes got pistol whipped, LOL") is NPOV!!!! You said it yourself: "Greeks were superior in combat than their Turkish counterparts and the only reason why they lost was because of a lack of allied support whilst the only reason why Turks won was because of massive soviet support." This is exactly what happened. Mitsos 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, I didn't knew there are Turkish Protestants. Mitsos 07:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Lloyd George in the house of commons would state that the Greek army repeatedly proved itself superior to the Turks and advanced against difficult terrain, outnumbered, with no Allied support, deep into Anatolia, only to be defeated by logistical problems and intervention by foreign powers(who both gave the Turks war material) I am not deriding you for being Turkish. Both sides fought bravely and the article must be fair.
As for who is responsible for igniting the war, that is debatable. The Greeks were justified in launching an offensive. There was a Greek and Armenian genocide going on in Asia Minor. Don't say it didn't happen because it has been well documented and people who have lived through it have given their eyewitness accounts. If millions of innocent Greek civilians were being killed in Asia Minor then the war was justified. Cretanpride 03:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the invasion of Cyprus. The Turks lost 3,000 men in July 1974 and captured 3 percent of the island. In other words, it was a failure. They launched another surprise assault a month later while Greek and Turkish leaders were discussing a peace deal. It seems to me that this shows the Turks are back stabbing cowards.
Regarding this article, it is worthy to note that the Greek army captured Bursa, Eskisehir, Afyon Karahisar and many many other cities and fortresses while the entire time being outnumbered and outgunned. Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants! If it wasn't for the Soviets and French giving the Turks war material, and supplying them with intelligence on Greek positions, the Greeks would have crushed Kemal's army. And that is the truth! I bet it hurts doesn't it? Cretanpride 22:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, you say the Greeks have never defeated the Turks. How about the Battle of Apokoronas? The battles in the Balkan wars? Lemnos? Sarantoporo? Thessaloniki? Giannina? Those were all Greek victories. How about the War of Independence? The Turks had to request aid from the Egyptians. Don't come on here with rascist incoherent remarks when you don't know what your talking about.
Also check this out. It is a Greek fighter pilot calmly and easily intercepting a Turkish Fighter which violated Greek territory. If there is a war, the entire Turkish airforce would be destroyed in a matter of days.[ [1]] Cretanpride 06:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Stop insulting each nation,neither Greek soldiers are pon pon girls nor Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants. This is not the place to discuss who is brave and who is not.-- Hattusili 12:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Apart from all other discussions,I think saying that the Turkish forces invaded Izmir is just like saying Greek forces invaded Thessaloniki, Soviets invaded Stalingrad or Vietnamese invaded Hồ Chà Minh City. -- Hattusili 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, maybe we can find a more neutral word than invasion.
To lutherian: Remember to Assume Good Faith, my Turkish friend. Mitsos 09:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Creatanpride it's no good talking. You are wasting your time with that piece of shit. He must be really high. Mitsos 07:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
And if the only thing you are doing in wikipedia is expressing your antihellenic feelings, then you are writing in the wrong encyclopedia. Mitsos 07:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
You accuse the Greeks of collaboration. Remember that Greece was the only occupied country which didn't sent a legion to fight against the Russians. Also, there were no Greek vollunteers in the Waffen SS (in contrast to French, Belgians, Dutch, Croatians, Danish, Norwegians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukranians and Russians). In addition, only 500 Greeks went to Germany to work during WWII, which is nothing compared to thousands of French, Belgian, Dutch Danish, Norwegian, and Polish vollunteers. Greece and Yugoslavia had the biggest resistance movements in Europe. And the first allied victory was the Greek victory against the Italians.
There are 3000 years of Greek history. A history of an ancient civilization, a history of great victories such as in Thermopylae, in the Battle of Apokoronas, in the Balkan wars and in WWI and WWII. Also, Alexander the Great conquered the entire Persian Empire and reached India. Greece is regarded as the cradle of western civilization and the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, sports, western literature, political science and drama including both tragedy and comedy. Also, Greece has a very long and remarkably rich history during which its culture has proven to be especially influential in Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. Today, Greece is a developed nation, member of the European Union since 1981 and a member of the Eurozone since 2001.
Now, what's your history? You were nomads who came from mongolia to Asia Minor because you were so useless and you couldn't pass the Chinese Wall. You slaughtered the entire population of Asia Minor and built an empire based on the blood of people you have conquered. Then, you were beaten by a bunch of Greek klephts. After that we started beating you all the time in the Balkan Wars and in WWI and the only reason you won the Greco-Turkish war 1919-1922 was because of the massive Soviet support. Then you exacted your revenge onto Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians of Asia Minor. You have broke every international law by waging the Istanbul pogrom and invading Cyprus. As for your culture, you didn't have a written language untill you took the alphabet from the Arabs. You also took your religion and in fact, your entire culture from the Arabs (even Baklava!). The truth is, you have no culture. Three genocides (Armenian, Assyrian and Pontian Greek) and now a fourth one against the Kurds, that's your culture. Mitsos 07:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
You talk like turkey is an advanced nation. Greece's situation today is due to the 400 years of turkish rule and not due to our lazyness. Despite that, Greece's GDP per capita is far bigger than turkey's. Your people are starving and you spent billions on military equipment. As George Horton said: The turkish race knows nothing than conquests and slaughters. It's not for you to say if the ancient Greeks were of weren't our ancestors. Btw, I don't give a shit about what this jewish bastard from New York Times said. And who you are refering as long bearded black robed fanatic racists? Mitsos 11:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i'm half Greek half Turkish so I think I can have a more fair view on the matter. Izmir had been under Turkish control for centuries. The "Big Idea" supported by Western powers was to recover all lands that once used to be Greek. The Big Idea had been around since 1821 (see Fereos' map of Magna Grecia, where Rigas Fereos claims that Sicely should be greek too). What Greeks can't understand is that Minor Asia was long lost to the Turks and that Byzantium never was a Greek Empire. It was an Eastern Roman Empire. So, literally Izmir hadn't been Greek since Greece was conquered by the Roman Empire. Turks did well to re-capture the city, the Greeks were invaders and that's just about it. I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population? No.
It is sad to see people still in favour of the Big Idea, a plan supported by the West only to cause trouble in the Balkan area. Now, regarding the Great Fire of Izmir, there is no trusty account to tell us what happened. The idea that Turks might have caused it was ONLY supported by the American ambassador that was married to a greek woman, had converted to Orthodoxy and was away from Izmir the days the Fire had occured. The Armenians, being themselves, blamed the Turks with no proof and there you have it... It could even be the Greeks or Armenians that caused the fire.
ALSO, my friend, Greece hosted the most succesful Olympics in the history of the Olympic games. So please, don't go around saying Greece has done nothing. Greece might be a small country, but it proves every day of its existance as a nation, that it is a great nation. The Turkish nation is great too, but I can't let anyone say anything against Greece or Turkey.
P.S.: I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little. I tried Catholicism but... I don't go around calling them long-beared, scary as hell,black-robed fraeky, theives...:P -- 89.210.11.229 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
okay, i read YET ANOTHER disturbing entry... Greece's lack of advancement is due to 400 years of Turkish rule? Okay, i'm sorry to say this put that is the MOST pathetic excuse i've EVER heard. If we could advance in our way we would. Also, you should be glad it was a civilised nation like Turkey that conquered us cause if we had someone MUCH WORSE on our backs, we would still be riding donkeys to work... -- 89.210.24.241 22:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
"a civilised nation like Turkey" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Turkey a civilized nation!!!!!! Who could be "MUCH WORSE" than the turko-mongols??? "I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population'?" the American-Greek population isn't suffering like the Greek population of asia minor at the time. Mitsos 14:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean Greek Americans don't suffer?!? They have to eat junk food all day long, drink loads of coffee and tolerate a rate of 60% on obesity!!! These people suffer!! :P
Even after the empire crumbled and the republic was born the Turks showed far greater civility than any of you guys yeah, the istanbul pogrom is an example of your civility. In WWII you played double game and you had a pact with the nazis. Mitsos 14:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
And why you keep telling me about WWII and the Jews? As I said, in WWII you were afraid to oppose the nazis and you had a pact of neutrality with Germany. And why do you think I care more about what you did to the jewish refugees than the Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds of Asia Minor who were exterminated by your "civilized" nation? Mitsos 09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I 'm glad to see that you 've run out of arguments and you don't want the discussion to be continued. I respect that. Now let's talk about the article.
Mitsos
09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
And something else, "I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little." well, I used to have nightmares when I was little too. I was dreaming that the muslim priest is gonna come and cut my dick. What a civilized religion!!!! Mitsos 09:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I know this conversation is above your level, but this is an encyclopedia forum, please no need for swearing. Also, i think it was your Church that had said that they prefer a Turkish turban ruling over Constantinople more than having the papal tiara in union with their "so-called orthodox church". So, yeah, you considered union with the Church of Rome worse than Turkish control. And you know what they say... Becareful what you wish for...
-- 89.210.58.81 19:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course nationalism has nothing to do with selfish assholes like you who are happy with the daddy's money and don't give a shit about the problems of their country and their people. I 'm not rich but I 'm also not selfish. I want the best for my country and my people and I don't like the fact that my university is full of commies and anarchists. I 'm a Greek Nationalist and I 'm Proud of it. Mitsos 09:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I 'm proud of being Greek and as I said I want the best for my nation. I want to take Cyprus back, but I have no dreams about a Greek empire and I don't want the Greek way of life to be imposed on other nations. I respect all the other nations. I agree in everything you said about the turks and that we are better than them. Btw, capitalism is as worse as communism and I 'm anti-capitalist as well as anti-communist. Mitsos 14:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Another fine example of editors with conflicting notions working together on a talk page to solve their differences and improve the quality of an article for any potential readers, isn't it? Long live reasoned debate. — Saposcat 14:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The article is protected. Please solve your differences on the talk page, rather than by an edit war, and let me know then the article is ready to be unprotected abakharev 03:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Mitsos 07:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for unprotection. 87.203.237.235 16:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says Turkish forces invaded Izmir (sory so sory, Smyrna, ancient names should be used in Wikipedia,right?)how can an army invade its own lands? The war was totaly against a Greek invasion (and the real Imperialists who created this caos was happily watching this bloody scene they created between two nations) This article should be rewriten (I don't request a sentence like "Turkish army liberated the city" but at least everybody should be aware of that the Turkish army was not a invasion force infact it was struggling against an invasion)-- Hattusili 05:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Izmir is the modern name of the city, by that time it was called Smyrni (English:Smyrna) by it's Greek inhabitants. Also, Smyrna is the English name and this is the English Wikipedia. Mitsos 07:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
You say that this topic is POV, while your opinion ("the truth of the matter is the Greeks in their skirts and pon pon shoes got pistol whipped, LOL") is NPOV!!!! You said it yourself: "Greeks were superior in combat than their Turkish counterparts and the only reason why they lost was because of a lack of allied support whilst the only reason why Turks won was because of massive soviet support." This is exactly what happened. Mitsos 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, I didn't knew there are Turkish Protestants. Mitsos 07:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Lloyd George in the house of commons would state that the Greek army repeatedly proved itself superior to the Turks and advanced against difficult terrain, outnumbered, with no Allied support, deep into Anatolia, only to be defeated by logistical problems and intervention by foreign powers(who both gave the Turks war material) I am not deriding you for being Turkish. Both sides fought bravely and the article must be fair.
As for who is responsible for igniting the war, that is debatable. The Greeks were justified in launching an offensive. There was a Greek and Armenian genocide going on in Asia Minor. Don't say it didn't happen because it has been well documented and people who have lived through it have given their eyewitness accounts. If millions of innocent Greek civilians were being killed in Asia Minor then the war was justified. Cretanpride 03:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the invasion of Cyprus. The Turks lost 3,000 men in July 1974 and captured 3 percent of the island. In other words, it was a failure. They launched another surprise assault a month later while Greek and Turkish leaders were discussing a peace deal. It seems to me that this shows the Turks are back stabbing cowards.
Regarding this article, it is worthy to note that the Greek army captured Bursa, Eskisehir, Afyon Karahisar and many many other cities and fortresses while the entire time being outnumbered and outgunned. Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants! If it wasn't for the Soviets and French giving the Turks war material, and supplying them with intelligence on Greek positions, the Greeks would have crushed Kemal's army. And that is the truth! I bet it hurts doesn't it? Cretanpride 22:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, you say the Greeks have never defeated the Turks. How about the Battle of Apokoronas? The battles in the Balkan wars? Lemnos? Sarantoporo? Thessaloniki? Giannina? Those were all Greek victories. How about the War of Independence? The Turks had to request aid from the Egyptians. Don't come on here with rascist incoherent remarks when you don't know what your talking about.
Also check this out. It is a Greek fighter pilot calmly and easily intercepting a Turkish Fighter which violated Greek territory. If there is a war, the entire Turkish airforce would be destroyed in a matter of days.[ [1]] Cretanpride 06:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Stop insulting each nation,neither Greek soldiers are pon pon girls nor Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants. This is not the place to discuss who is brave and who is not.-- Hattusili 12:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Apart from all other discussions,I think saying that the Turkish forces invaded Izmir is just like saying Greek forces invaded Thessaloniki, Soviets invaded Stalingrad or Vietnamese invaded Hồ Chà Minh City. -- Hattusili 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, maybe we can find a more neutral word than invasion.
To lutherian: Remember to Assume Good Faith, my Turkish friend. Mitsos 09:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Creatanpride it's no good talking. You are wasting your time with that piece of shit. He must be really high. Mitsos 07:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
And if the only thing you are doing in wikipedia is expressing your antihellenic feelings, then you are writing in the wrong encyclopedia. Mitsos 07:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
You accuse the Greeks of collaboration. Remember that Greece was the only occupied country which didn't sent a legion to fight against the Russians. Also, there were no Greek vollunteers in the Waffen SS (in contrast to French, Belgians, Dutch, Croatians, Danish, Norwegians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukranians and Russians). In addition, only 500 Greeks went to Germany to work during WWII, which is nothing compared to thousands of French, Belgian, Dutch Danish, Norwegian, and Polish vollunteers. Greece and Yugoslavia had the biggest resistance movements in Europe. And the first allied victory was the Greek victory against the Italians.
There are 3000 years of Greek history. A history of an ancient civilization, a history of great victories such as in Thermopylae, in the Battle of Apokoronas, in the Balkan wars and in WWI and WWII. Also, Alexander the Great conquered the entire Persian Empire and reached India. Greece is regarded as the cradle of western civilization and the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, sports, western literature, political science and drama including both tragedy and comedy. Also, Greece has a very long and remarkably rich history during which its culture has proven to be especially influential in Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. Today, Greece is a developed nation, member of the European Union since 1981 and a member of the Eurozone since 2001.
Now, what's your history? You were nomads who came from mongolia to Asia Minor because you were so useless and you couldn't pass the Chinese Wall. You slaughtered the entire population of Asia Minor and built an empire based on the blood of people you have conquered. Then, you were beaten by a bunch of Greek klephts. After that we started beating you all the time in the Balkan Wars and in WWI and the only reason you won the Greco-Turkish war 1919-1922 was because of the massive Soviet support. Then you exacted your revenge onto Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians of Asia Minor. You have broke every international law by waging the Istanbul pogrom and invading Cyprus. As for your culture, you didn't have a written language untill you took the alphabet from the Arabs. You also took your religion and in fact, your entire culture from the Arabs (even Baklava!). The truth is, you have no culture. Three genocides (Armenian, Assyrian and Pontian Greek) and now a fourth one against the Kurds, that's your culture. Mitsos 07:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
You talk like turkey is an advanced nation. Greece's situation today is due to the 400 years of turkish rule and not due to our lazyness. Despite that, Greece's GDP per capita is far bigger than turkey's. Your people are starving and you spent billions on military equipment. As George Horton said: The turkish race knows nothing than conquests and slaughters. It's not for you to say if the ancient Greeks were of weren't our ancestors. Btw, I don't give a shit about what this jewish bastard from New York Times said. And who you are refering as long bearded black robed fanatic racists? Mitsos 11:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, i'm half Greek half Turkish so I think I can have a more fair view on the matter. Izmir had been under Turkish control for centuries. The "Big Idea" supported by Western powers was to recover all lands that once used to be Greek. The Big Idea had been around since 1821 (see Fereos' map of Magna Grecia, where Rigas Fereos claims that Sicely should be greek too). What Greeks can't understand is that Minor Asia was long lost to the Turks and that Byzantium never was a Greek Empire. It was an Eastern Roman Empire. So, literally Izmir hadn't been Greek since Greece was conquered by the Roman Empire. Turks did well to re-capture the city, the Greeks were invaders and that's just about it. I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population? No.
It is sad to see people still in favour of the Big Idea, a plan supported by the West only to cause trouble in the Balkan area. Now, regarding the Great Fire of Izmir, there is no trusty account to tell us what happened. The idea that Turks might have caused it was ONLY supported by the American ambassador that was married to a greek woman, had converted to Orthodoxy and was away from Izmir the days the Fire had occured. The Armenians, being themselves, blamed the Turks with no proof and there you have it... It could even be the Greeks or Armenians that caused the fire.
ALSO, my friend, Greece hosted the most succesful Olympics in the history of the Olympic games. So please, don't go around saying Greece has done nothing. Greece might be a small country, but it proves every day of its existance as a nation, that it is a great nation. The Turkish nation is great too, but I can't let anyone say anything against Greece or Turkey.
P.S.: I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little. I tried Catholicism but... I don't go around calling them long-beared, scary as hell,black-robed fraeky, theives...:P -- 89.210.11.229 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
okay, i read YET ANOTHER disturbing entry... Greece's lack of advancement is due to 400 years of Turkish rule? Okay, i'm sorry to say this put that is the MOST pathetic excuse i've EVER heard. If we could advance in our way we would. Also, you should be glad it was a civilised nation like Turkey that conquered us cause if we had someone MUCH WORSE on our backs, we would still be riding donkeys to work... -- 89.210.24.241 22:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
"a civilised nation like Turkey" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Turkey a civilized nation!!!!!! Who could be "MUCH WORSE" than the turko-mongols??? "I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population'?" the American-Greek population isn't suffering like the Greek population of asia minor at the time. Mitsos 14:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean Greek Americans don't suffer?!? They have to eat junk food all day long, drink loads of coffee and tolerate a rate of 60% on obesity!!! These people suffer!! :P
Even after the empire crumbled and the republic was born the Turks showed far greater civility than any of you guys yeah, the istanbul pogrom is an example of your civility. In WWII you played double game and you had a pact with the nazis. Mitsos 14:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
And why you keep telling me about WWII and the Jews? As I said, in WWII you were afraid to oppose the nazis and you had a pact of neutrality with Germany. And why do you think I care more about what you did to the jewish refugees than the Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds of Asia Minor who were exterminated by your "civilized" nation? Mitsos 09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I 'm glad to see that you 've run out of arguments and you don't want the discussion to be continued. I respect that. Now let's talk about the article.
Mitsos
09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
And something else, "I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little." well, I used to have nightmares when I was little too. I was dreaming that the muslim priest is gonna come and cut my dick. What a civilized religion!!!! Mitsos 09:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I know this conversation is above your level, but this is an encyclopedia forum, please no need for swearing. Also, i think it was your Church that had said that they prefer a Turkish turban ruling over Constantinople more than having the papal tiara in union with their "so-called orthodox church". So, yeah, you considered union with the Church of Rome worse than Turkish control. And you know what they say... Becareful what you wish for...
-- 89.210.58.81 19:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course nationalism has nothing to do with selfish assholes like you who are happy with the daddy's money and don't give a shit about the problems of their country and their people. I 'm not rich but I 'm also not selfish. I want the best for my country and my people and I don't like the fact that my university is full of commies and anarchists. I 'm a Greek Nationalist and I 'm Proud of it. Mitsos 09:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I 'm proud of being Greek and as I said I want the best for my nation. I want to take Cyprus back, but I have no dreams about a Greek empire and I don't want the Greek way of life to be imposed on other nations. I respect all the other nations. I agree in everything you said about the turks and that we are better than them. Btw, capitalism is as worse as communism and I 'm anti-capitalist as well as anti-communist. Mitsos 14:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Another fine example of editors with conflicting notions working together on a talk page to solve their differences and improve the quality of an article for any potential readers, isn't it? Long live reasoned debate. — Saposcat 14:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)