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![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with London on 27 July 2022. The result of the discussion was to not merge. |
![]() | On 13 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Greater London (ceremonial county). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Isn't the area of the main article London and Greater London exactly the same? Why do two separate articles exist? Hgh1985 ( talk) 14:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Using different names for different things should be better. However, even if the regional authority has (unhappily) the same name of the different ceremonial county, there is a parallelism between the situation of London and New York, and Wikipedia should reflect this fact. The pages about London and New York are (correctly) on the same level. So this page about Greater London should be managed as the page about the County of New York, which both are one of the metropolitan counties. There is no need to duplicate the informations: the Greater London should advice that “Greater London” can refer to the regional authority, but a disambiguation with the London page (which contains the informations about the authority) should be sufficient.-- 11piemontesibellitosti ( talk) 13:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Either London and Greater London are indeed the same place. Or else both articles are a total mess. And they're a mess because nobody can tell the difference. Because there isn't one. Dgp4004 ( talk) 12:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Where does London stop and Greater London go on1965. Although not exactly 1965, because London did not stop then. You are comparing apples with pears. Are you aware that all the London boroughs also are split this way too? See for instance, London Borough of Croydon and Croydon. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 12:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Should the ethnicity stats be removed from the Infobox? These are the stats for the region but the infobox lists them under the ceremonial county. Although the population of the City of London is small, its inclusion may nudge the stats slightly. I can't find a source for the ceremonial county alone. Dgp4004 ( talk) 13:35, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus to move to the proposed title ( closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Greater London → Greater London (ceremonial county) – The current scope of this article and its intro are a confusing mess that needs to be fixed. I propose to create a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to London and re-scope this article to be just about the ceremonial county.
Greater London can refer to the administrative area of London (which includes the City of London and the 32 London boroughs) or a ceremonial county (which is just the the 32 London boroughs and doesn't include the City). Most of the time it refers to the administrative area of London (which includes the City), as in the Greater London Authority (GLA). For example, the list at Mayor of London#List of mayors (a branch of GLA) includes the names of very prominent politicians, like current mayor Sadiq Khan and former mayors Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone. Those are the mayors of the administrative area of Greater London, a position officially and colloquially called just "mayor of London". It is a position with a significant amount of power over a city of 9 million people. In contrast, the ceremonial county is just ceremonial, as the name implies. It consists of just two unpaid positions that sometimes wear fancy dresses at some events but do no real work (a cynic would say the politicians at GLA do no real work either, but that's another story). The lists at Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London and High Sheriff of Greater London are of relatively obscure people. To sum up, the administrative area of London, whose mayors are known internationally, is clearly the primary topic over the obscure ceremonial county of the same name.
Now we just need to make sure the scope of the administrative area of Greater London is exactly the same as that of London so that we can create a redirect. There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus. However, I believe there is irrefutable evidence that London and Greater London are indeed the same thing.
The administration of London is formed of two tiers: a citywide, strategic tier and a local tier. Citywide administration is coordinated by the Greater London Authority (GLA), while local administration is carried out by 33 smaller authorities. London#Geography says
London, also known as Greater London.
is also generally known as London[1].
Techically, it doesn't cover all of London since the M25 is excluded, but I believe above refereces show that unsurprisingly London is used much more commonly than Greater London but both refer to exactly the same thing. Vpab15 ( talk) 18:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Do you think there is no primary topic for "Greater London"?, so to be clear, the answer is that I do believe very firmly there is a primary topic, and this is it - Greater London, which was created in 1965. What I do not believe is that London (created a long time before 1965) is the primary topic. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London[9], so the City is as much a part of Greater London as the 32 London boroughs. A reader wants to know what Greater London is, and from the references I provided it is exactly the same as London. Please provide some reference if you disagree with that. Vpab15 ( talk) 20:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
the reverse doesn't seem to be true. How can that be? Either two terms are synonyms or they aren't. It can't be that only of of them is synonym with the other but not the other way, it is a commutative property.
"Greater London" isn't used for the county. Yes it is, what is the name of the ceremonial county that excludes the City then? If you mean that "Greater London", mostly refers to just London and not the ceremonial county, I agree, that's why I said it should be a primary redirect. Vpab15 ( talk) 07:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus.That was disingenuous. You yourself made the proposal in August 2022 and it was overwhemingly rejected. You argued with almost everyone who opposed your proposal then and you're doing it again now. Please consider WP:LISTEN,
Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted.NebY ( talk) 10:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
We are not American, every time I see the 33 boroughs on the summary table called 33 districts my blood boils. Can someone sort this out, I’m no tech wiz at editing these summary tables. 81.107.136.31 ( talk) 05:31, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Just a quick thing — I can see what you're aiming for with the lead paragraph, @ PlatinumClipper96, but the London boroughs are already mentioned in the second paragraph and I worry it's overcomplicating the lead paragraph to also mention them there. The primary topics of the article are the administrative area, region, and ceremonial county, so the lead para really only needs to go into them. What do you think?
As a side note, the region is just called London, so only that (rather than London region needs to be bold). I think that because the phrase Greater London is already in bold we don't need to also bold the county. A.D.Hope ( talk) 11:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Avoid using boldface for introducing new terms. Instead, italics are preferred (see Words as words).NebY ( talk) 12:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest a change to the introduction of the article as it is quite misleading. The London Region is a region of England that consists of two ceremonial counties - Greater London and the City of London. Greater London (without the City of London) is what we refer to as the capital of England and it is not coterminous with the region which also covers the City of London.
What I have bolded are three different entities on different levels of local government that should not be confused with each other.
I get that calling the City of London a borough (part of Greater London) is for ease of understanding, but it is nonetheless misleading. Felleno ( talk) 15:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Greater London article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 365 days
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Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
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|
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with London on 27 July 2022. The result of the discussion was to not merge. |
![]() | On 13 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Greater London (ceremonial county). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Isn't the area of the main article London and Greater London exactly the same? Why do two separate articles exist? Hgh1985 ( talk) 14:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Using different names for different things should be better. However, even if the regional authority has (unhappily) the same name of the different ceremonial county, there is a parallelism between the situation of London and New York, and Wikipedia should reflect this fact. The pages about London and New York are (correctly) on the same level. So this page about Greater London should be managed as the page about the County of New York, which both are one of the metropolitan counties. There is no need to duplicate the informations: the Greater London should advice that “Greater London” can refer to the regional authority, but a disambiguation with the London page (which contains the informations about the authority) should be sufficient.-- 11piemontesibellitosti ( talk) 13:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
Either London and Greater London are indeed the same place. Or else both articles are a total mess. And they're a mess because nobody can tell the difference. Because there isn't one. Dgp4004 ( talk) 12:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Where does London stop and Greater London go on1965. Although not exactly 1965, because London did not stop then. You are comparing apples with pears. Are you aware that all the London boroughs also are split this way too? See for instance, London Borough of Croydon and Croydon. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 12:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
Should the ethnicity stats be removed from the Infobox? These are the stats for the region but the infobox lists them under the ceremonial county. Although the population of the City of London is small, its inclusion may nudge the stats slightly. I can't find a source for the ceremonial county alone. Dgp4004 ( talk) 13:35, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus to move to the proposed title ( closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Greater London → Greater London (ceremonial county) – The current scope of this article and its intro are a confusing mess that needs to be fixed. I propose to create a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to London and re-scope this article to be just about the ceremonial county.
Greater London can refer to the administrative area of London (which includes the City of London and the 32 London boroughs) or a ceremonial county (which is just the the 32 London boroughs and doesn't include the City). Most of the time it refers to the administrative area of London (which includes the City), as in the Greater London Authority (GLA). For example, the list at Mayor of London#List of mayors (a branch of GLA) includes the names of very prominent politicians, like current mayor Sadiq Khan and former mayors Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone. Those are the mayors of the administrative area of Greater London, a position officially and colloquially called just "mayor of London". It is a position with a significant amount of power over a city of 9 million people. In contrast, the ceremonial county is just ceremonial, as the name implies. It consists of just two unpaid positions that sometimes wear fancy dresses at some events but do no real work (a cynic would say the politicians at GLA do no real work either, but that's another story). The lists at Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London and High Sheriff of Greater London are of relatively obscure people. To sum up, the administrative area of London, whose mayors are known internationally, is clearly the primary topic over the obscure ceremonial county of the same name.
Now we just need to make sure the scope of the administrative area of Greater London is exactly the same as that of London so that we can create a redirect. There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus. However, I believe there is irrefutable evidence that London and Greater London are indeed the same thing.
The administration of London is formed of two tiers: a citywide, strategic tier and a local tier. Citywide administration is coordinated by the Greater London Authority (GLA), while local administration is carried out by 33 smaller authorities. London#Geography says
London, also known as Greater London.
is also generally known as London[1].
Techically, it doesn't cover all of London since the M25 is excluded, but I believe above refereces show that unsurprisingly London is used much more commonly than Greater London but both refer to exactly the same thing. Vpab15 ( talk) 18:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Do you think there is no primary topic for "Greater London"?, so to be clear, the answer is that I do believe very firmly there is a primary topic, and this is it - Greater London, which was created in 1965. What I do not believe is that London (created a long time before 1965) is the primary topic. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 19:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London[9], so the City is as much a part of Greater London as the 32 London boroughs. A reader wants to know what Greater London is, and from the references I provided it is exactly the same as London. Please provide some reference if you disagree with that. Vpab15 ( talk) 20:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
the reverse doesn't seem to be true. How can that be? Either two terms are synonyms or they aren't. It can't be that only of of them is synonym with the other but not the other way, it is a commutative property.
"Greater London" isn't used for the county. Yes it is, what is the name of the ceremonial county that excludes the City then? If you mean that "Greater London", mostly refers to just London and not the ceremonial county, I agree, that's why I said it should be a primary redirect. Vpab15 ( talk) 07:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus.That was disingenuous. You yourself made the proposal in August 2022 and it was overwhemingly rejected. You argued with almost everyone who opposed your proposal then and you're doing it again now. Please consider WP:LISTEN,
Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted.NebY ( talk) 10:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
We are not American, every time I see the 33 boroughs on the summary table called 33 districts my blood boils. Can someone sort this out, I’m no tech wiz at editing these summary tables. 81.107.136.31 ( talk) 05:31, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Just a quick thing — I can see what you're aiming for with the lead paragraph, @ PlatinumClipper96, but the London boroughs are already mentioned in the second paragraph and I worry it's overcomplicating the lead paragraph to also mention them there. The primary topics of the article are the administrative area, region, and ceremonial county, so the lead para really only needs to go into them. What do you think?
As a side note, the region is just called London, so only that (rather than London region needs to be bold). I think that because the phrase Greater London is already in bold we don't need to also bold the county. A.D.Hope ( talk) 11:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Avoid using boldface for introducing new terms. Instead, italics are preferred (see Words as words).NebY ( talk) 12:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest a change to the introduction of the article as it is quite misleading. The London Region is a region of England that consists of two ceremonial counties - Greater London and the City of London. Greater London (without the City of London) is what we refer to as the capital of England and it is not coterminous with the region which also covers the City of London.
What I have bolded are three different entities on different levels of local government that should not be confused with each other.
I get that calling the City of London a borough (part of Greater London) is for ease of understanding, but it is nonetheless misleading. Felleno ( talk) 15:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)