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The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
For the Arbitration Committee, Bradv 🍁 02:42, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is this page under discretionary sanctions for The Troubles? This article doesn't even mention them, and there was over a century between the two events. If there's a valid reason, perhaps something could be added to the edit notice (or a talk page FAQ) explaining it in order to avoid people like me asking this question again. – Deacon Vorbis ( carbon • videos) 23:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The Great Irish Famine case arose when some "Irish nationalist" editors edited the article to reflect the view that the Famine was genocide. A 2005 book on the Famine was quoted, both in the added content and in the ArbCom case, saying "the flowering of famine scholarship during the 1990s has given academic respectability to certain key nationalist perspectives on the famine". Thus the events of 1847 are a key part of the narrative of 20th/21st-century Irish nationalism (and also of Ulster/Scottish loyalism – see Famine song). There has been very little controversy on "Troubles" pages in the last five years or more, but it were ever to start up again, this page is as likely to be affected as any other. Scolaire ( talk) 10:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I have now initiated the clarification request: Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: The Troubles and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There was no consensus for the move as requested or for the alternative of "Irish Potato Famine". ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 22:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Great Famine (Ireland) →
Great Irish Famine – Uses natural common title. It is the term used in, for example, the
Cork University Press Atlas on the subject. It's also a better default for wikilinking, easier as a title to integrate into text.
Iveagh Gardens (
talk) 18:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. –
Ammarpad (
talk)
17:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the great work you all do on the Irish Famine (Great Famine) page. The mention of about one million people dying due to famine in the opening paragraph of the article, citing C Kenneally, is at odds with the contents of the paragraph headed 'Death Toll'. Better to state that there is honest disagreement if that is the case or varying estimates than lead the reader to see two conflicting and contradictory estimates. Thanks.
For what its worth Gustave de Beaumont (Ireland, Social, Political and Religious) cites a figure of about 2.4 million, adding an estimate as to what the population might have been had the famine not occurred. I can copy out the paragraph detailing how he arrived at his estimate if it might be of any help though it need not be cited at all except where a reliable source is needed to buttress the view that more than one million people died. Many thanks. M. H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.135.55.16 ( talk) 18:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
If 1863 is unacceptable, DrKay, then you'll want to review the 1841 and 1851 figures in the paragraph entitled 'Death Toll'. You've missed or ignored the substance of what was a respectful query, but thank you anyway for your time. M.H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.135.55.16 ( talk) 21:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
The current section on exports during the famine is highly misleading and represents a minority scholarly opinion as if it is the consensus view. The Oxford Handbook of Modern Irish History describes the state of the question on the issue of whether Ireland could have fed itself if it were not for the exports: "Few historians support the case advanced by John Mitchel that Ireland produced sufficient alternative foodstuffs to have filled the 'potato gap' in 1846-47, but for a partial exception based on the view that Irish exports were significantly under-recorded, see Christine Kinealy ..." Kinealy's position, and that stated throughout most of this section, is clearly not that of the scholarly consensus but, rather, a minority view held by 'few historians'. While it is useful to include this minority view, it needs to be clearly identified as such. At the moment we have a very selective set of quotations and references drawing on the authority of a a 19th century poet and a TV broadcaster to make it look as if the view is mainstream and almost completely ignoring the actual consensus position. Unless anyone has any objections over the next few days, I will reframe the section to keep the content intact by flag it clearly from the beginning as a minority view that most historians reject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.242.61 ( talk) 10:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
I've added the perspective of Cecil Woodham-Smith, that the workhouses were funded by money from the rates, that came from rents, that came from food sales. Some of those food sales were going to be abroad. In hindsight we know the workhouse system was overwhelmed by numbers. It was a new system and hadn't been tested. Food should not have been exported, but we are saying that with the benefit of hindsight. 78.16.41.64 ( talk) 17:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
This article on the great famine, is at its core completely a white wash of events. While mostly the facts are correct, there is one serious point that is not focused on. Most people think the famine was due to the only food the Irish could grow was potatoes and that when these failed the Irish died The facts are far more complicated whilst simple at the same time The Irish were able to grow a vast array of food, which due to their English landlords who literally kept them as slaves The Irish were predominately farmers The rents were so high they had to give the english every crop they grew in exchange for rent The only vegetable that the english didnt want or gave an exchange rate so low that the Irish kept it for themselves was the potato England's long-running political hegemony over Ireland was the true cause of this so called famine.
The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen
There was no famine as we know it The english took all the food and just left potatoes for the Irish to live on and when the potatoes failed the Irish died Many southern Irish people believe the death toll was in its millions, yet your article state only a million died and that the population fell between 20% and 25%.[6] due to death and emigration
These important facts are all skewed in this article
What I as an Irish person would like to see at the forefront of this article was The Famine should be renamed the great Irish Genocide caused by the English who are still abusing the Irish — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.prendergast ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Longer-term causes included the system of absentee landlordism [1] [2] and single-crop dependence, [3] [4] and the impact of the blight was exacerbated by government laissez-faire capitalism economic policy, common in the world at that time [5] [6] though in the case of Ireland in the mid-19th century, this was tempered by some interventionist policies also. [7]
References
"Together with the Napoleonic Wars, the Great Famine in Ireland produced the greatest loss of life in 19th-century Europe."
"Together with"? What the hey is that supposed to mean? The Napoleonic Wars and the Great Famine cooperated to produce a great loss of lives? That sentence really must be re-written! GeneCallahan ( talk) 07:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
This is known about even in other countries; how is it possible it's not well known in Ireland, where many of the editors are no doubt from? -- Espoo ( talk) 13:46, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
OK, searching for Ottaman produces results, but why is it presented as a legend? The link above has a photo of the document and https://www.irishtimes.com/news/role-of-turkey-during-famine-clarified-1.672383 also confirms it's not a legend. -- Espoo ( talk) 14:08, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
The most common years when I was learning were 1845 to 1849. Some scholars made a case that effects extended to 1851, notably mass emigration. But few, if any, ever mentioned 1852. Now, with just one supporting reference used, one of the basic facts of the Famine, its end year, is expressed as 1852..? Could this at least be debated? Everything about this topic is sensitive, and the effects resounded for decades, but still, we must have a clear, academic-consensus-based position on core facts. SeoR ( talk) 20:32, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 20:38, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
The drawing here entitled "Scene at the gate of the workhouse, c. 1846" has the name "Kinross" or "Kenross" Union Guardians on the back right. Where in Ireland was this? 2A02:8084:6A20:4600:536:3065:9A35:ED03 ( talk) 19:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I want to upload these two or three pictures [1]& [2] to this article's section "Emigration". They are essential to the entry. But I don't know whether they belong to the public domain. I am also not familiar with Wikicommon's criteria for uploading. Please help me to work it out.-- 波斯波莉斯 ( talk) 12:25, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 8 May 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Carlygould96.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 22:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
In the 'analysis of the government's role' section, there is the baseless & unfounded claim that 'most historians reject the claim that the famine constituted a genocide'. There is zero evidence to support this viewpoint, and I have twice attempted to remove this blatantly false claim; however, I have been unsuccessful and have even been accused of 'edit warring' which I unequivocally reject.
A few partisan historians arguing that the famine was not a genocide does not equate to consensus.
Please remove this totally made-up claim. Duke Of Dirty Dancing ( talk) 18:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
One of many English genocides around the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.73.59.242 ( talk) 00:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
"From 1846, the impact of the blight was exacerbated by the British Whig government's economic policy of laissez-faire capitalism." What part of foreign-ruled feudalism is "laissez-faire"? This article also makes the point that during a second famine the number of deaths was significantly less, in due part to people not losing their homes. The reason they were losing their homes is because the British taxed them beyond their capacity to pay, and then forcibly evicted them, much of this disparity originating with the British taking the land, selling it to foreigners and refusing the local populace from owning their own land. What part of that is laissez-faire capitalism? A laissez-faire capitalist system would have no limitations on who could buy property and ostensibly wouldn't levy taxes on people for land they didn't own and for products they couldn't produce. If it's referring to economics specifically in England, that should be explained further in how it exacerbated the blight (maybe it was something to do with potato markets?) because there's no explanation for this statement as is. J1DW ( talk) 11:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
This claim is poorly sourced (not a history book on Ireland, deleted webpage, no named author, no quoted sources) and seems to relate to events in France and Germany, not Ireland.
"The potato was not popular at first, but it rose in popularity after an unusual promotion campaign: involving landowners and members of royalty, who desired for their tenants to plant and eat the crop."
For France and Germany see: Antoine-Augustin Parmentier#Potato publicity stunts
Original edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=875531713
I will delete it.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 21:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Later today when the WP:1RR expires I will delete this edit
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_(Ireland)&diff=1121561130&oldid=1120462309
Michael Pollan#The Botany of Desire is not an historian and should not be used as a source for historical facts.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 09:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
This edit https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=132033484
Inserted a quote from Beyond Beef by Jeremy Rifkin
Multiple issues.
I'm going to delete it.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 22:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Both quotes were added in a single commit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=169227551
I will be removing them for the following reasons.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 23:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
It's highly irresponsible to cite laissez-faire capitalism as a cause of the irish famine. There was nothing laissez-faire capitalist about ireland in 1849 at all. You could just as inaccurately try blaming it on socialism by saying it was caused by a government regulated control of what people grow 174.71.228.58 ( talk) 23:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
The Poor Law tax was introduced in Ireland in 1838, the late 1840s this tax went up and op - especially after the Russell government passed legislation forcing areas of Ireland that were not dependent on the potato to pay for areas (for bankrupt Poor Law Unions) that were were dependent on the potato. A policy of higher and higher taxation, and the "roads to nowhere" and other schemes of Sir Charles Trevelyan, can not honestly be described as "laissez faire". 2A02:C7C:E085:8D00:B98A:4B1E:1A58:24A1 ( talk) 13:06, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
For the Arbitration Committee, Bradv 🍁 02:42, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is this page under discretionary sanctions for The Troubles? This article doesn't even mention them, and there was over a century between the two events. If there's a valid reason, perhaps something could be added to the edit notice (or a talk page FAQ) explaining it in order to avoid people like me asking this question again. – Deacon Vorbis ( carbon • videos) 23:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The Great Irish Famine case arose when some "Irish nationalist" editors edited the article to reflect the view that the Famine was genocide. A 2005 book on the Famine was quoted, both in the added content and in the ArbCom case, saying "the flowering of famine scholarship during the 1990s has given academic respectability to certain key nationalist perspectives on the famine". Thus the events of 1847 are a key part of the narrative of 20th/21st-century Irish nationalism (and also of Ulster/Scottish loyalism – see Famine song). There has been very little controversy on "Troubles" pages in the last five years or more, but it were ever to start up again, this page is as likely to be affected as any other. Scolaire ( talk) 10:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I have now initiated the clarification request: Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: The Troubles and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use. Thryduulf ( talk) 17:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There was no consensus for the move as requested or for the alternative of "Irish Potato Famine". ( closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 22:17, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Great Famine (Ireland) →
Great Irish Famine – Uses natural common title. It is the term used in, for example, the
Cork University Press Atlas on the subject. It's also a better default for wikilinking, easier as a title to integrate into text.
Iveagh Gardens (
talk) 18:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. –
Ammarpad (
talk)
17:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the great work you all do on the Irish Famine (Great Famine) page. The mention of about one million people dying due to famine in the opening paragraph of the article, citing C Kenneally, is at odds with the contents of the paragraph headed 'Death Toll'. Better to state that there is honest disagreement if that is the case or varying estimates than lead the reader to see two conflicting and contradictory estimates. Thanks.
For what its worth Gustave de Beaumont (Ireland, Social, Political and Religious) cites a figure of about 2.4 million, adding an estimate as to what the population might have been had the famine not occurred. I can copy out the paragraph detailing how he arrived at his estimate if it might be of any help though it need not be cited at all except where a reliable source is needed to buttress the view that more than one million people died. Many thanks. M. H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.135.55.16 ( talk) 18:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
If 1863 is unacceptable, DrKay, then you'll want to review the 1841 and 1851 figures in the paragraph entitled 'Death Toll'. You've missed or ignored the substance of what was a respectful query, but thank you anyway for your time. M.H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.135.55.16 ( talk) 21:44, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
The current section on exports during the famine is highly misleading and represents a minority scholarly opinion as if it is the consensus view. The Oxford Handbook of Modern Irish History describes the state of the question on the issue of whether Ireland could have fed itself if it were not for the exports: "Few historians support the case advanced by John Mitchel that Ireland produced sufficient alternative foodstuffs to have filled the 'potato gap' in 1846-47, but for a partial exception based on the view that Irish exports were significantly under-recorded, see Christine Kinealy ..." Kinealy's position, and that stated throughout most of this section, is clearly not that of the scholarly consensus but, rather, a minority view held by 'few historians'. While it is useful to include this minority view, it needs to be clearly identified as such. At the moment we have a very selective set of quotations and references drawing on the authority of a a 19th century poet and a TV broadcaster to make it look as if the view is mainstream and almost completely ignoring the actual consensus position. Unless anyone has any objections over the next few days, I will reframe the section to keep the content intact by flag it clearly from the beginning as a minority view that most historians reject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.242.61 ( talk) 10:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
I've added the perspective of Cecil Woodham-Smith, that the workhouses were funded by money from the rates, that came from rents, that came from food sales. Some of those food sales were going to be abroad. In hindsight we know the workhouse system was overwhelmed by numbers. It was a new system and hadn't been tested. Food should not have been exported, but we are saying that with the benefit of hindsight. 78.16.41.64 ( talk) 17:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
This article on the great famine, is at its core completely a white wash of events. While mostly the facts are correct, there is one serious point that is not focused on. Most people think the famine was due to the only food the Irish could grow was potatoes and that when these failed the Irish died The facts are far more complicated whilst simple at the same time The Irish were able to grow a vast array of food, which due to their English landlords who literally kept them as slaves The Irish were predominately farmers The rents were so high they had to give the english every crop they grew in exchange for rent The only vegetable that the english didnt want or gave an exchange rate so low that the Irish kept it for themselves was the potato England's long-running political hegemony over Ireland was the true cause of this so called famine.
The English conquered Ireland, several times, and took ownership of vast agricultural territory. Large chunks of land were given to Englishmen
There was no famine as we know it The english took all the food and just left potatoes for the Irish to live on and when the potatoes failed the Irish died Many southern Irish people believe the death toll was in its millions, yet your article state only a million died and that the population fell between 20% and 25%.[6] due to death and emigration
These important facts are all skewed in this article
What I as an Irish person would like to see at the forefront of this article was The Famine should be renamed the great Irish Genocide caused by the English who are still abusing the Irish — Preceding unsigned comment added by E.prendergast ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Longer-term causes included the system of absentee landlordism [1] [2] and single-crop dependence, [3] [4] and the impact of the blight was exacerbated by government laissez-faire capitalism economic policy, common in the world at that time [5] [6] though in the case of Ireland in the mid-19th century, this was tempered by some interventionist policies also. [7]
References
"Together with the Napoleonic Wars, the Great Famine in Ireland produced the greatest loss of life in 19th-century Europe."
"Together with"? What the hey is that supposed to mean? The Napoleonic Wars and the Great Famine cooperated to produce a great loss of lives? That sentence really must be re-written! GeneCallahan ( talk) 07:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
This is known about even in other countries; how is it possible it's not well known in Ireland, where many of the editors are no doubt from? -- Espoo ( talk) 13:46, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
OK, searching for Ottaman produces results, but why is it presented as a legend? The link above has a photo of the document and https://www.irishtimes.com/news/role-of-turkey-during-famine-clarified-1.672383 also confirms it's not a legend. -- Espoo ( talk) 14:08, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
The most common years when I was learning were 1845 to 1849. Some scholars made a case that effects extended to 1851, notably mass emigration. But few, if any, ever mentioned 1852. Now, with just one supporting reference used, one of the basic facts of the Famine, its end year, is expressed as 1852..? Could this at least be debated? Everything about this topic is sensitive, and the effects resounded for decades, but still, we must have a clear, academic-consensus-based position on core facts. SeoR ( talk) 20:32, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
SeoR ( talk) 20:38, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
The drawing here entitled "Scene at the gate of the workhouse, c. 1846" has the name "Kinross" or "Kenross" Union Guardians on the back right. Where in Ireland was this? 2A02:8084:6A20:4600:536:3065:9A35:ED03 ( talk) 19:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I want to upload these two or three pictures [1]& [2] to this article's section "Emigration". They are essential to the entry. But I don't know whether they belong to the public domain. I am also not familiar with Wikicommon's criteria for uploading. Please help me to work it out.-- 波斯波莉斯 ( talk) 12:25, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 8 May 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Carlygould96.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 22:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
In the 'analysis of the government's role' section, there is the baseless & unfounded claim that 'most historians reject the claim that the famine constituted a genocide'. There is zero evidence to support this viewpoint, and I have twice attempted to remove this blatantly false claim; however, I have been unsuccessful and have even been accused of 'edit warring' which I unequivocally reject.
A few partisan historians arguing that the famine was not a genocide does not equate to consensus.
Please remove this totally made-up claim. Duke Of Dirty Dancing ( talk) 18:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
One of many English genocides around the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.73.59.242 ( talk) 00:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
"From 1846, the impact of the blight was exacerbated by the British Whig government's economic policy of laissez-faire capitalism." What part of foreign-ruled feudalism is "laissez-faire"? This article also makes the point that during a second famine the number of deaths was significantly less, in due part to people not losing their homes. The reason they were losing their homes is because the British taxed them beyond their capacity to pay, and then forcibly evicted them, much of this disparity originating with the British taking the land, selling it to foreigners and refusing the local populace from owning their own land. What part of that is laissez-faire capitalism? A laissez-faire capitalist system would have no limitations on who could buy property and ostensibly wouldn't levy taxes on people for land they didn't own and for products they couldn't produce. If it's referring to economics specifically in England, that should be explained further in how it exacerbated the blight (maybe it was something to do with potato markets?) because there's no explanation for this statement as is. J1DW ( talk) 11:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
This claim is poorly sourced (not a history book on Ireland, deleted webpage, no named author, no quoted sources) and seems to relate to events in France and Germany, not Ireland.
"The potato was not popular at first, but it rose in popularity after an unusual promotion campaign: involving landowners and members of royalty, who desired for their tenants to plant and eat the crop."
For France and Germany see: Antoine-Augustin Parmentier#Potato publicity stunts
Original edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=875531713
I will delete it.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 21:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Later today when the WP:1RR expires I will delete this edit
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_(Ireland)&diff=1121561130&oldid=1120462309
Michael Pollan#The Botany of Desire is not an historian and should not be used as a source for historical facts.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 09:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
This edit https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=132033484
Inserted a quote from Beyond Beef by Jeremy Rifkin
Multiple issues.
I'm going to delete it.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 22:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Both quotes were added in a single commit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Great_Famine_%28Ireland%29&diff=prev&oldid=169227551
I will be removing them for the following reasons.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 23:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
It's highly irresponsible to cite laissez-faire capitalism as a cause of the irish famine. There was nothing laissez-faire capitalist about ireland in 1849 at all. You could just as inaccurately try blaming it on socialism by saying it was caused by a government regulated control of what people grow 174.71.228.58 ( talk) 23:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
The Poor Law tax was introduced in Ireland in 1838, the late 1840s this tax went up and op - especially after the Russell government passed legislation forcing areas of Ireland that were not dependent on the potato to pay for areas (for bankrupt Poor Law Unions) that were were dependent on the potato. A policy of higher and higher taxation, and the "roads to nowhere" and other schemes of Sir Charles Trevelyan, can not honestly be described as "laissez faire". 2A02:C7C:E085:8D00:B98A:4B1E:1A58:24A1 ( talk) 13:06, 13 January 2023 (UTC)