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If someone could clear this up for me I'd be very grateful. The idea that a Great American Novel embodies "the spirit of life in the United States at the time of its writing" seems at odds with some of the examples. Gravity's Rainbow, for example, or Slaughterhouse 5, don't focus on life in the US, or life at the time of writing, both being set predominantly in Europe during WWII. Over here in Britain, we might describe some works that attempt to deal with contemporary national identity as being 'State of the Nation' novels; Dickens provides many classic examples, Martin Amis, London Fields or Zadie Smith's White Teeth would be more modern examples. Would the phrase Great American Novel be used in a similar way, something I could see in Huck Finn or Gatsby, or is it used more extensively to refer to any novel that happens to be 'great' and by an 'American', regardless of subject matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.170.105 ( talk) 16:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This is far from my field of expertise, so can someone add something about the sarcastic usage of the term "great American novel" and associated cultural references? This term, in my view, is used more often to ridicule someone than to give praise to anything. Like some blowhard with no career and no grip on reality, someone asks, "What's he doing now, anyway?" Someone replies, "I don't know, I think he's writing the great American novel..."-- 208.127.100.147 ( talk) 09:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)-- 208.127.100.19 ( talk) 08:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
While there is no telling if either of them agree with the Great American Novel criteria listed in this article, but both Roger Ebert and Harold Bloom have, perhaps unfortunately, called Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West by that name, as Google searching seems to support, though I have been unable to find a direct citation after a mere 15 minutes of browsing those results. -- KGF0 ( T | C ) 23:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Admittedly not a novel, however the HBO TV series The Wire can in some ways be seen to fulfill that role of the Great American Novel ... often cited as a televised 21st century War and Peace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.122.147 ( talk) 00:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC) This is the first time I've ever heard that. I've watched all the episodes of it, and read many Great American Novels in my time. I just don't understand what this comment serves, as it's not eligible for this page and cannot better the page. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh; just found your comment more than slightly bizzare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.0.201 ( talk) 16:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Completely disagree. I think The Wire fits perfectly into this category. The great American novel concept needs to be revised to incorporate all of the new forms of media currently present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.117.139 ( talk) 01:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I think Huck Finn is great and very worthy of the title, but having a photo of its cover near the top of the article might lead some to believe its status as the 'Great American Novel' to be a foregone conclusion. An article void of anything absolute would be the most worthwhile one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.14.131.20 ( talk) 22:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
There are times in U.S. history when its citizens were forced to go abroad: Namely, wars. I propose that any novel dealing with Americans in:
be considered as happening in the U.S. for the purpose of this list.
I'm sure that I'm missing others, but these are all that I can think of off of the top of my head.<br. />
—NBahn (
talk)
01:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I was wondering: Does anyone know if any reliable sources ever discussed Longfellow's The Song of Hiawatha in the context of The Great American Novel? I know that it's a large work, but its poetry, not prose. Can poetry fit the criteria of The Great American Novel?<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 03:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
An I.P. address removed Ayn Rand without justification ( see here). Normally, when something like this happens, I'll revert it; however, I never read the book, so I'm asking here if anyone knows of any reliable sources that discuss it as a contender.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 01:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Child-like, mournful, with wonderment and without attention span. Also beautifully written. To my mind, this is the best zeitgeist-catcher of the immediate aftermath of 9/11, and I'd like to see it on that list at the bottom. ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Lemikam ( talk) 18:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Based on the recent brouhaha over Franzen's Freedom, it might be worth mentioning that 99% of these novels are by men. Also, shouldn't Richard Wright's Native Son be on here?? Nocoleah ( talk) 15:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Harriet B Stowe has Uncle Tom earlier up the list. But an argument for Little Women is made by A.N.Devers in Elle (magazine) (Dec 10 2019) If anyone can find a source slightly more illustrious than this surely Alcott's masterpiece deserves adding to the page- after all Tom Sawyer is already on there...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.224.91 ( talk) 09:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Elaine Showalter writing in the London Review of Books (23rd March 1995) writes that Little Women is: 'A classic American novel that deserves to be read alongside Twain'. So near but is anyone going to quibble at classic instead of great? Almost the same thing, surely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.224.91 ( talk) 10:03, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I removed The Scarlet Letter from the list of novels considered to be The Great American Novel because the source cited is inadequate. The source cited is an unsigned list at American Literature.com entitled Great American Novels. There has been considerable discussion here regarding the difference between a great American novel and The Great American Novel. It seems to me that to be included in this list the title must be referred to as The Great American Novel by a respected critique of American literature. I don't know exactly what qualifies someone to be a respected critic, but since the author of this list didn't even sign it, I'm sure that this source is inadequate. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
The citation you included is and excellent review from a highly repudable source. I'm glad you posted it. I'm glad I read it. I'm now interested in reading the novel for the first time ever. But your citattion does not refer to the The Scarlet Letter as The Great American Novel. It mostly discusses the greatness of the heroine. If "The Scarlet letter is one of the original Great American Novels that... any librarian or English teacher... will add to a list", then you ought to be able to find gads of references to it as such, so far, no noe has provided one. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 15:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I have another thought regarding The Scarlet Letter. I don't know if it is relevant or not, but the novel is not set in the time in which it was written. The author was using and earlier American society to comment on his contemporary society. Does this affect its status a contender for the title of The Great American Novel? Does it affect its ability to capture the spirit of the age? - ErinHowarth ( talk) 15:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following titles which had no citation at all. Another contributor merely tagged them about six weeks ago, but I think that is far too generous. We shouldn't be adding our favorite novels to this list as if nominating them for the title of The Great American Novel. The Great American Novel is often referred to as not yet having been written, so the list of novels that might qualify should be very, very short. Please find sources to cite before adding these titles (or any other titles) to the list. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed three titles by Henry James as novels considered to be The Great American Novel because the citation was quite inadequate. The citation lead to something like a library reference card which did not include a critique of the novel let alone one that referred to it as The Great American Novel. Please do not restore these titles unless you can find a source that refers to them as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed William Faulkner's Light in August (1932) from the list of books considered to be The Great American Novel because the citation was woefully inadequate. The citation leads to a bookseller rather than a scholarly critique of the book. It includes this phrase: "Publisher Comments: One of Faulkner's most admired and accessible novels, Light in August reveals the great American author at the height of his powers." Faulkner might be generally considered to be The Great American Author, but not because his publisher says so. Please don't restore this title to the list unless you can find a source that refers to the work as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed The Road from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not actually refer to it as such. "He suggested Cormac McCarthy’s The Road as a recent possibility of a pretty Great American Book. If you haven’t read it yet, go get it. The Road really could be the most recent Great American Novel." The author only says that it might be The Great American Novel. Pleas don't add this novel back to the list unless you can find a critic who is more certain of his assessment. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 16:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Underworld from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not actually refer to it as such. But DeLillo more than makes it work: Underworld is his best novel and perhaps that most elusive of creatures, a great American novel. The author only says that it might be The Great American Novel. Pleas don't add this novel back to the list unless you can find a critic who is more certain of his assessment. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 17:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed A Confederacy of Dunces from the list of novels known as The Great American Novel because the citation did not refer to it as The Great American Novel. Early this year, the Book Review's editor, Sam Tanenhaus, sent out a short letter to a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other literary sages, asking them to please identify "the single best work of American fiction published in the last 25 years." The best American novel is not the same as The Great American Novel. Please don't add this title back to the list without a reference referring to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 17:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Joseph Heller's Catch-22 (1961) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation offered does not refer to it as such. The citation leads to a list of Top Novels chosen by experts. Top Novels are not the same as The Great American Novel. Please do not restore this title to the list without a reference that actually refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird (1960) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to it as such. This is one of my favorite books, so I looked around a bit on the Internet, and I found a lot of bloggers voting for it as The Great American novel, but the best scholarly thing I found on it only said that it might be The Great American Novel - very disappointing. I hope somebody can restore this title to the list with a decent reference that refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Jack Kerouac's On the Road (1957) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to is as such. "If On the Road wasn't the Great American Novel, then Kerouac can make a fair claim to the Great American Fantasy Baseball League. Please do not restore this title to the list without a reference that refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I put it back because you just need to Google it for 5 minutes and you can find numerous places that mention it as a great American novel. i dont know how to add citations so i didn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.254.160.244 ( talk) 08:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I removed Moby Dick from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to is as such. I'm CERTAIN that someone somewhere has referred to Moby Dick as The Great American Novel. Please find one before you restore this title to the list. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury (1929) because there was no citation. Please do not restore it to the list without a citation of someone somewhere referring to it as The Great American Novel.
I removed both Franzen books from the list because the content doesn't match the source -- notably, that there is a difference between calling something a great American novel, and dubbing it The Great American Novel. Not to mention the "source" was a scrolling graphic of upcoming books that might be great reads. It really begs the question of how long after publication a book can reasonably be considered The Great American Novel. It's easy for an overzealous literary critic to throw the term around. But in the case of Franzen's "Freedom," the bad reviews were as scathing as the good reviews were positive. The same is probably true for McCarthy's "The Road," but I haven't had time to look into it yet. Jeditor17 ( talk) 09:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the above comment about length of time after publication is extremely to the point. The citation for Franzen's book is from an Esquire book review from the year it came out? Seriously? How on earth can one legitimately call something that has had a shelf life of less than a year "The Great American Novel"- to use a sports analogy, its kind of like saying someone should win the Heisman after the first week of College Football. It makes no sense because TIME is an essential ingredient in the determination of what works can honestly be even be included in the conversation. I know Wikipedia has really lose criteria for what to include, but I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of books that have at some point been cited as "The Great American Novel" and if that's the case, hypothetically the list could be much much longer... So what makes Franzen's book deserved and NOTHING from someone like Hemingway or Henry James... or a dozen other greats that have endured the test of time. I'm perplexed. Tominrochester ( talk) 03:37, 6 October 2012 (UTC)Tominrochester Tominrochester ( talk) 03:37, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
There have recently been a number of anon. I.P. edits — most of them being deletions — that are without any explanations. I am taking the liberty of reverting some (albeit, not all) of them. I am not saying that the edits are ipso facto unjustifiable, just that an explanation is in order — especially when editing with an anon. I.P. address.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 05:36, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
As a novelist in his late Sixties, may I provide some historical perspective? You've redefined what we meant by "the Great American Novel" when we originally used it (and that's fine. We quit using it.) Google nGram tells me the phrase shot up from nothing to great popularity between 1900 and 1920, fluctuated, and faded badly after 2000. I thought the notion had become quaint, but I find you've reinvigorated it. You speak of a book which captures the Zeitgeist, the Hegelian "spirit of the age"-- though I notice that lately your "ages" only seem to last two or three years, like your "generations." We originally meant the opposite: a book which triumphed over the Zeitgeist. It would capture the American Weltanschauung, the essential American World Outlook which endured despite all changes in the Zeitgeist. It would be something like our national epic, as someone commented above. Books I heard mentioned as contenders were HUCK FINN AND MOBY DICK, but also, very often, STUDS LONIGAN, THE GRAPES OF WRATH, USA. However, we gave up on the idea, and you have revived it in a useful form. http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=great+American+novel&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3 Profhum ( talk) 06:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
This is absurd. If the base criterion for being included in an encyclopedic list of books considered at one time or another to be "The Great American Novel" is that some reviewer in a fit of hyperbole has in one independent publication referred to the book as "the Great American Novel," or as a book that "may well be" the Great American Novel, or as a book that "could earn the title" of Great American Novel; or that Frederic Jameson ironically referred to it as the Great American Novel; or that it is "such a book," which would seem to diminish the singularity of the status; or that someone writing about an actor who starred in a film version of the book would refer to the book that way; or that it "came close"; or that it is "still frequently nominated"; or any of the other highly questionable and mostly entirely ephemeral instances found here, then I suggest that such a list, far from being authoritative, is useless. My own book was described as "a contender for Great American Novel status" in a large-circulation UK print magazine; flattering though that is, I would never dream of including it on a list of great novels, American or otherwise. 69.119.59.55 ( talk) 02:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more with the above. Its hard to take the criterion for a book's inclusion on this page seriously. Tominrochester ( talk) 16:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)Tominrochester Tominrochester ( talk) 16:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there synthesis being applied towards the citation for Freedom, the most recent novel? The Esquire review talks about the Great American Novel as a concept that may have gone away, but hopes that Freedom is evidence that it has not, while never explicitly naming Freedom as a Great American Novel. In fact, the Wikipedia article cites that several reviews were negative, and there was no mention of it being a Great American Novel. But even if Freedom is not an example of the Great American Novel, the citation does help to define what the concept is. MMetro ( talk) 04:07, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
It seems relevant that the statements classifying some of the more examples as a Great American Novel are from non-Americans. I put that in the text, but this was reverted. How important does this fact seem to others? Pete unseth ( talk) 23:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=great%20american%20novel%20mormon%20smith&es_th=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.114.233 ( talk) 03:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great American Novel/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Having read both the article and talk pages, I cannot help but agree that the article not only needs editing for citations, but that it needs more information as well; but both need to be done by an English major and I'm not an English major. --NBahn ( talk) 01:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 16:38, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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I put the "Section Uncited" template on the lede because there are no sources for the statements there either in the lede or in the article.
Maybe should be "Article Uncited" but there are cites for individual novels in the list.
The "citations needed" for individual paragraphs have been there since 2013. ch ( talk) 22:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC) ch ( talk) 22:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Fireflyfanboy: Anybody can voice their claim that XYZ is "The Great American Novel", but that is not sufficient. The source you use for Slaughterhouse-Five and Catch-22 is Manuel Garcia, Jr., an ex-physicist writing on a political site. It has to be someone with literary credentials. Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:52, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
3O Response: Rather than examining policy, I'm going to look at the needs of the article for this one. I fear that if the list were "democratized" to include anyone's opinion, then the list would quickly become bloated and meaningless. Any book notable enough to be considered for this list should have had commentary from multiple reliable sources, and I feel as though the criteria should be multiple reliable sources or a consensus of reliable sources, ideally including both critical literary and sociology sources to account for its literary merit and its reflection of American culture/American experience, per the broad definition. Maybe they shouldn't have to universally call it the "Great American Novel" but to attribute to it those characteristics of the Great American Novel. I feel also, that because it may take time to form a consensus (note the negative reviewers of
Infinite Jest who later reconsidered their position) and to show influence on later literature, that perhaps novels which are less than 10 or 20 years old should not be considered at all.
Honestly, I'd advise calling an RfC on this to get broader opinion on (1) what the list should actually be, and (2) how to form the inclusion criteria from available sources. – Reidgreg ( talk) 18:28, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
I fail to see how the Fantastic Four is a bad example. It is well written, fits in with lots of American themes, and the source cited by editors is from someone who researches American fiction on a daily basis. To not include it would be insanely naive! By that logic, we shouldn't include Infinite Jest because our cautions for it being a Great American Novel come from book reviewers with no credentials studying American Culture. And before you flash the "It's a comic book" card: 1. Graphic Novel! 2. Many of the books already included were originally published in serialized forms. Just saying. - Watcher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:A80:1F7D:3509:8600:D284:B86F ( talk) 08:01, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
A quick look at the edit history and at this talk page show that it is User:Clarityfiend who is responsible for purging potential GANs from this article. An article like this deserves multiple voices and users determine a system for assessing what is and is not a GAN. This user seems to be acting unilaterally as the sole judge of what is and is not considered a GAN, and anything that does not meet their standards is immediately deleted. Just yesterday, a massive purge of novels listed that could be considered GANs was deleted because this user, and only this user, believed the sources were "inadequate," without any discussion whatsoever on this talk page. One of these novels was Beloved by the late Toni Morrison, and the fact that this user sought to delete the entry without doing any further research that would have found plenty of claims to it being a GAN (TM won a Nobel Prize, after all), only shows continued ignorance. This is unilateral editing, at odds with Wikipedia's standards and concept. I believe there is more than enough room to include the many more novels that this article used to include, and that novels that have already can purged can instead be ADDED to with better sources. Apparently that doesn't not pass the litmus test of the one user who is solely determining what is and is not a Great American Novel. This philosophy of purging whatever novel has "inadequate sources" rather than trying to find better ones is inherently problematic, and I implore User:Clarityfiend to use this talk page to discuss any future edits, including purges and deletions, to this article that they have taken such a vested interested in before acting in such a unilateral fashion. WikiIndustrialComplex ( talk) 19:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Let me list the very long list of references that refer to Gone with the Wind as the Great American Novel.
These are the highest quality references that refer to Gone With the Wind (which will be shortened to GW from now on) as the Great American Novel, but there are endless amounts of others:
Perhaps I would understand @ Clarityfiend:'s strict maintenance of this page if they maintained only the highest quality of sources, but that simply is not the case. Some of the current sources include a youtube lecture and a scanned newspaper article from 1994. I personally thinks these sources are sufficient, as I have not contested them. Clarityfiend may claim that my supplied sources are not anything more than passing references, but the current existing sources are exactly that. The source for Huckleberry Finn by American Heritage mentions the GAN in one sentence. Judging by the past discussions on this talk page, Clarityfiend may be of the mentality that they own this page, but "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." ~ HAL 333 23:35, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
If someone could clear this up for me I'd be very grateful. The idea that a Great American Novel embodies "the spirit of life in the United States at the time of its writing" seems at odds with some of the examples. Gravity's Rainbow, for example, or Slaughterhouse 5, don't focus on life in the US, or life at the time of writing, both being set predominantly in Europe during WWII. Over here in Britain, we might describe some works that attempt to deal with contemporary national identity as being 'State of the Nation' novels; Dickens provides many classic examples, Martin Amis, London Fields or Zadie Smith's White Teeth would be more modern examples. Would the phrase Great American Novel be used in a similar way, something I could see in Huck Finn or Gatsby, or is it used more extensively to refer to any novel that happens to be 'great' and by an 'American', regardless of subject matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.170.105 ( talk) 16:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This is far from my field of expertise, so can someone add something about the sarcastic usage of the term "great American novel" and associated cultural references? This term, in my view, is used more often to ridicule someone than to give praise to anything. Like some blowhard with no career and no grip on reality, someone asks, "What's he doing now, anyway?" Someone replies, "I don't know, I think he's writing the great American novel..."-- 208.127.100.147 ( talk) 09:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)-- 208.127.100.19 ( talk) 08:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
While there is no telling if either of them agree with the Great American Novel criteria listed in this article, but both Roger Ebert and Harold Bloom have, perhaps unfortunately, called Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West by that name, as Google searching seems to support, though I have been unable to find a direct citation after a mere 15 minutes of browsing those results. -- KGF0 ( T | C ) 23:44, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Admittedly not a novel, however the HBO TV series The Wire can in some ways be seen to fulfill that role of the Great American Novel ... often cited as a televised 21st century War and Peace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.122.147 ( talk) 00:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC) This is the first time I've ever heard that. I've watched all the episodes of it, and read many Great American Novels in my time. I just don't understand what this comment serves, as it's not eligible for this page and cannot better the page. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh; just found your comment more than slightly bizzare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.0.201 ( talk) 16:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Completely disagree. I think The Wire fits perfectly into this category. The great American novel concept needs to be revised to incorporate all of the new forms of media currently present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.117.139 ( talk) 01:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I think Huck Finn is great and very worthy of the title, but having a photo of its cover near the top of the article might lead some to believe its status as the 'Great American Novel' to be a foregone conclusion. An article void of anything absolute would be the most worthwhile one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.14.131.20 ( talk) 22:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
There are times in U.S. history when its citizens were forced to go abroad: Namely, wars. I propose that any novel dealing with Americans in:
be considered as happening in the U.S. for the purpose of this list.
I'm sure that I'm missing others, but these are all that I can think of off of the top of my head.<br. />
—NBahn (
talk)
01:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I was wondering: Does anyone know if any reliable sources ever discussed Longfellow's The Song of Hiawatha in the context of The Great American Novel? I know that it's a large work, but its poetry, not prose. Can poetry fit the criteria of The Great American Novel?<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 03:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
An I.P. address removed Ayn Rand without justification ( see here). Normally, when something like this happens, I'll revert it; however, I never read the book, so I'm asking here if anyone knows of any reliable sources that discuss it as a contender.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 01:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Child-like, mournful, with wonderment and without attention span. Also beautifully written. To my mind, this is the best zeitgeist-catcher of the immediate aftermath of 9/11, and I'd like to see it on that list at the bottom. ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC) Lemikam ( talk) 18:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Based on the recent brouhaha over Franzen's Freedom, it might be worth mentioning that 99% of these novels are by men. Also, shouldn't Richard Wright's Native Son be on here?? Nocoleah ( talk) 15:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Harriet B Stowe has Uncle Tom earlier up the list. But an argument for Little Women is made by A.N.Devers in Elle (magazine) (Dec 10 2019) If anyone can find a source slightly more illustrious than this surely Alcott's masterpiece deserves adding to the page- after all Tom Sawyer is already on there...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.224.91 ( talk) 09:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Elaine Showalter writing in the London Review of Books (23rd March 1995) writes that Little Women is: 'A classic American novel that deserves to be read alongside Twain'. So near but is anyone going to quibble at classic instead of great? Almost the same thing, surely? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.224.91 ( talk) 10:03, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
I removed The Scarlet Letter from the list of novels considered to be The Great American Novel because the source cited is inadequate. The source cited is an unsigned list at American Literature.com entitled Great American Novels. There has been considerable discussion here regarding the difference between a great American novel and The Great American Novel. It seems to me that to be included in this list the title must be referred to as The Great American Novel by a respected critique of American literature. I don't know exactly what qualifies someone to be a respected critic, but since the author of this list didn't even sign it, I'm sure that this source is inadequate. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
The citation you included is and excellent review from a highly repudable source. I'm glad you posted it. I'm glad I read it. I'm now interested in reading the novel for the first time ever. But your citattion does not refer to the The Scarlet Letter as The Great American Novel. It mostly discusses the greatness of the heroine. If "The Scarlet letter is one of the original Great American Novels that... any librarian or English teacher... will add to a list", then you ought to be able to find gads of references to it as such, so far, no noe has provided one. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 15:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I have another thought regarding The Scarlet Letter. I don't know if it is relevant or not, but the novel is not set in the time in which it was written. The author was using and earlier American society to comment on his contemporary society. Does this affect its status a contender for the title of The Great American Novel? Does it affect its ability to capture the spirit of the age? - ErinHowarth ( talk) 15:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following titles which had no citation at all. Another contributor merely tagged them about six weeks ago, but I think that is far too generous. We shouldn't be adding our favorite novels to this list as if nominating them for the title of The Great American Novel. The Great American Novel is often referred to as not yet having been written, so the list of novels that might qualify should be very, very short. Please find sources to cite before adding these titles (or any other titles) to the list. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed three titles by Henry James as novels considered to be The Great American Novel because the citation was quite inadequate. The citation lead to something like a library reference card which did not include a critique of the novel let alone one that referred to it as The Great American Novel. Please do not restore these titles unless you can find a source that refers to them as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed William Faulkner's Light in August (1932) from the list of books considered to be The Great American Novel because the citation was woefully inadequate. The citation leads to a bookseller rather than a scholarly critique of the book. It includes this phrase: "Publisher Comments: One of Faulkner's most admired and accessible novels, Light in August reveals the great American author at the height of his powers." Faulkner might be generally considered to be The Great American Author, but not because his publisher says so. Please don't restore this title to the list unless you can find a source that refers to the work as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed The Road from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not actually refer to it as such. "He suggested Cormac McCarthy’s The Road as a recent possibility of a pretty Great American Book. If you haven’t read it yet, go get it. The Road really could be the most recent Great American Novel." The author only says that it might be The Great American Novel. Pleas don't add this novel back to the list unless you can find a critic who is more certain of his assessment. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 16:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Underworld from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not actually refer to it as such. But DeLillo more than makes it work: Underworld is his best novel and perhaps that most elusive of creatures, a great American novel. The author only says that it might be The Great American Novel. Pleas don't add this novel back to the list unless you can find a critic who is more certain of his assessment. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 17:15, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed A Confederacy of Dunces from the list of novels known as The Great American Novel because the citation did not refer to it as The Great American Novel. Early this year, the Book Review's editor, Sam Tanenhaus, sent out a short letter to a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other literary sages, asking them to please identify "the single best work of American fiction published in the last 25 years." The best American novel is not the same as The Great American Novel. Please don't add this title back to the list without a reference referring to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 17:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Joseph Heller's Catch-22 (1961) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation offered does not refer to it as such. The citation leads to a list of Top Novels chosen by experts. Top Novels are not the same as The Great American Novel. Please do not restore this title to the list without a reference that actually refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird (1960) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to it as such. This is one of my favorite books, so I looked around a bit on the Internet, and I found a lot of bloggers voting for it as The Great American novel, but the best scholarly thing I found on it only said that it might be The Great American Novel - very disappointing. I hope somebody can restore this title to the list with a decent reference that refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I removed Jack Kerouac's On the Road (1957) from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to is as such. "If On the Road wasn't the Great American Novel, then Kerouac can make a fair claim to the Great American Fantasy Baseball League. Please do not restore this title to the list without a reference that refers to it as The Great American Novel. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 19:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I put it back because you just need to Google it for 5 minutes and you can find numerous places that mention it as a great American novel. i dont know how to add citations so i didn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.254.160.244 ( talk) 08:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
I removed Moby Dick from the list of novels referred to as The Great American Novel because the citation does not refer to is as such. I'm CERTAIN that someone somewhere has referred to Moby Dick as The Great American Novel. Please find one before you restore this title to the list. - ErinHowarth ( talk) 21:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury (1929) because there was no citation. Please do not restore it to the list without a citation of someone somewhere referring to it as The Great American Novel.
I removed both Franzen books from the list because the content doesn't match the source -- notably, that there is a difference between calling something a great American novel, and dubbing it The Great American Novel. Not to mention the "source" was a scrolling graphic of upcoming books that might be great reads. It really begs the question of how long after publication a book can reasonably be considered The Great American Novel. It's easy for an overzealous literary critic to throw the term around. But in the case of Franzen's "Freedom," the bad reviews were as scathing as the good reviews were positive. The same is probably true for McCarthy's "The Road," but I haven't had time to look into it yet. Jeditor17 ( talk) 09:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the above comment about length of time after publication is extremely to the point. The citation for Franzen's book is from an Esquire book review from the year it came out? Seriously? How on earth can one legitimately call something that has had a shelf life of less than a year "The Great American Novel"- to use a sports analogy, its kind of like saying someone should win the Heisman after the first week of College Football. It makes no sense because TIME is an essential ingredient in the determination of what works can honestly be even be included in the conversation. I know Wikipedia has really lose criteria for what to include, but I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of books that have at some point been cited as "The Great American Novel" and if that's the case, hypothetically the list could be much much longer... So what makes Franzen's book deserved and NOTHING from someone like Hemingway or Henry James... or a dozen other greats that have endured the test of time. I'm perplexed. Tominrochester ( talk) 03:37, 6 October 2012 (UTC)Tominrochester Tominrochester ( talk) 03:37, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
There have recently been a number of anon. I.P. edits — most of them being deletions — that are without any explanations. I am taking the liberty of reverting some (albeit, not all) of them. I am not saying that the edits are ipso facto unjustifiable, just that an explanation is in order — especially when editing with an anon. I.P. address.<br. /> —NBahn ( talk) 05:36, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
As a novelist in his late Sixties, may I provide some historical perspective? You've redefined what we meant by "the Great American Novel" when we originally used it (and that's fine. We quit using it.) Google nGram tells me the phrase shot up from nothing to great popularity between 1900 and 1920, fluctuated, and faded badly after 2000. I thought the notion had become quaint, but I find you've reinvigorated it. You speak of a book which captures the Zeitgeist, the Hegelian "spirit of the age"-- though I notice that lately your "ages" only seem to last two or three years, like your "generations." We originally meant the opposite: a book which triumphed over the Zeitgeist. It would capture the American Weltanschauung, the essential American World Outlook which endured despite all changes in the Zeitgeist. It would be something like our national epic, as someone commented above. Books I heard mentioned as contenders were HUCK FINN AND MOBY DICK, but also, very often, STUDS LONIGAN, THE GRAPES OF WRATH, USA. However, we gave up on the idea, and you have revived it in a useful form. http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=great+American+novel&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3 Profhum ( talk) 06:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
This is absurd. If the base criterion for being included in an encyclopedic list of books considered at one time or another to be "The Great American Novel" is that some reviewer in a fit of hyperbole has in one independent publication referred to the book as "the Great American Novel," or as a book that "may well be" the Great American Novel, or as a book that "could earn the title" of Great American Novel; or that Frederic Jameson ironically referred to it as the Great American Novel; or that it is "such a book," which would seem to diminish the singularity of the status; or that someone writing about an actor who starred in a film version of the book would refer to the book that way; or that it "came close"; or that it is "still frequently nominated"; or any of the other highly questionable and mostly entirely ephemeral instances found here, then I suggest that such a list, far from being authoritative, is useless. My own book was described as "a contender for Great American Novel status" in a large-circulation UK print magazine; flattering though that is, I would never dream of including it on a list of great novels, American or otherwise. 69.119.59.55 ( talk) 02:26, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more with the above. Its hard to take the criterion for a book's inclusion on this page seriously. Tominrochester ( talk) 16:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)Tominrochester Tominrochester ( talk) 16:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Is there synthesis being applied towards the citation for Freedom, the most recent novel? The Esquire review talks about the Great American Novel as a concept that may have gone away, but hopes that Freedom is evidence that it has not, while never explicitly naming Freedom as a Great American Novel. In fact, the Wikipedia article cites that several reviews were negative, and there was no mention of it being a Great American Novel. But even if Freedom is not an example of the Great American Novel, the citation does help to define what the concept is. MMetro ( talk) 04:07, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
It seems relevant that the statements classifying some of the more examples as a Great American Novel are from non-Americans. I put that in the text, but this was reverted. How important does this fact seem to others? Pete unseth ( talk) 23:32, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=great%20american%20novel%20mormon%20smith&es_th=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.43.114.233 ( talk) 03:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great American Novel/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Having read both the article and talk pages, I cannot help but agree that the article not only needs editing for citations, but that it needs more information as well; but both need to be done by an English major and I'm not an English major. --NBahn ( talk) 01:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 16:38, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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I put the "Section Uncited" template on the lede because there are no sources for the statements there either in the lede or in the article.
Maybe should be "Article Uncited" but there are cites for individual novels in the list.
The "citations needed" for individual paragraphs have been there since 2013. ch ( talk) 22:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC) ch ( talk) 22:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Fireflyfanboy: Anybody can voice their claim that XYZ is "The Great American Novel", but that is not sufficient. The source you use for Slaughterhouse-Five and Catch-22 is Manuel Garcia, Jr., an ex-physicist writing on a political site. It has to be someone with literary credentials. Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:52, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
3O Response: Rather than examining policy, I'm going to look at the needs of the article for this one. I fear that if the list were "democratized" to include anyone's opinion, then the list would quickly become bloated and meaningless. Any book notable enough to be considered for this list should have had commentary from multiple reliable sources, and I feel as though the criteria should be multiple reliable sources or a consensus of reliable sources, ideally including both critical literary and sociology sources to account for its literary merit and its reflection of American culture/American experience, per the broad definition. Maybe they shouldn't have to universally call it the "Great American Novel" but to attribute to it those characteristics of the Great American Novel. I feel also, that because it may take time to form a consensus (note the negative reviewers of
Infinite Jest who later reconsidered their position) and to show influence on later literature, that perhaps novels which are less than 10 or 20 years old should not be considered at all.
Honestly, I'd advise calling an RfC on this to get broader opinion on (1) what the list should actually be, and (2) how to form the inclusion criteria from available sources. – Reidgreg ( talk) 18:28, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
I fail to see how the Fantastic Four is a bad example. It is well written, fits in with lots of American themes, and the source cited by editors is from someone who researches American fiction on a daily basis. To not include it would be insanely naive! By that logic, we shouldn't include Infinite Jest because our cautions for it being a Great American Novel come from book reviewers with no credentials studying American Culture. And before you flash the "It's a comic book" card: 1. Graphic Novel! 2. Many of the books already included were originally published in serialized forms. Just saying. - Watcher — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:A80:1F7D:3509:8600:D284:B86F ( talk) 08:01, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
A quick look at the edit history and at this talk page show that it is User:Clarityfiend who is responsible for purging potential GANs from this article. An article like this deserves multiple voices and users determine a system for assessing what is and is not a GAN. This user seems to be acting unilaterally as the sole judge of what is and is not considered a GAN, and anything that does not meet their standards is immediately deleted. Just yesterday, a massive purge of novels listed that could be considered GANs was deleted because this user, and only this user, believed the sources were "inadequate," without any discussion whatsoever on this talk page. One of these novels was Beloved by the late Toni Morrison, and the fact that this user sought to delete the entry without doing any further research that would have found plenty of claims to it being a GAN (TM won a Nobel Prize, after all), only shows continued ignorance. This is unilateral editing, at odds with Wikipedia's standards and concept. I believe there is more than enough room to include the many more novels that this article used to include, and that novels that have already can purged can instead be ADDED to with better sources. Apparently that doesn't not pass the litmus test of the one user who is solely determining what is and is not a Great American Novel. This philosophy of purging whatever novel has "inadequate sources" rather than trying to find better ones is inherently problematic, and I implore User:Clarityfiend to use this talk page to discuss any future edits, including purges and deletions, to this article that they have taken such a vested interested in before acting in such a unilateral fashion. WikiIndustrialComplex ( talk) 19:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Let me list the very long list of references that refer to Gone with the Wind as the Great American Novel.
These are the highest quality references that refer to Gone With the Wind (which will be shortened to GW from now on) as the Great American Novel, but there are endless amounts of others:
Perhaps I would understand @ Clarityfiend:'s strict maintenance of this page if they maintained only the highest quality of sources, but that simply is not the case. Some of the current sources include a youtube lecture and a scanned newspaper article from 1994. I personally thinks these sources are sufficient, as I have not contested them. Clarityfiend may claim that my supplied sources are not anything more than passing references, but the current existing sources are exactly that. The source for Huckleberry Finn by American Heritage mentions the GAN in one sentence. Judging by the past discussions on this talk page, Clarityfiend may be of the mentality that they own this page, but "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." ~ HAL 333 23:35, 20 April 2020 (UTC)