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Some sources cited in the article seem questionable:
Autarch ( talk) 22:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=R2yeSOcNlgE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:444:FEEB:B4F5:7B8C:FC90:CC9C ( talk) 10:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I've started a RSN discussion on the use of the Cyprus Mail here.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
There's not enough sources describing him as a "journalist", therefore we shouldn't describe him as such. He's primarily a YouTuber who happened to be in Ukraine during the conflict and posted some videos about it. BeŻet ( talk) 11:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I registered another source describing his as Journalist --> [2] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:38, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
The entire last paragraph of the Biography section (starting "In 2017, Lira was active on social networks") is completely unsourced, except for one reference at the end to an opinion article on The Daily Beast, which does not come close to meeting normal Wikipedia reliable-source criteria. Unless adequate reliable sources can be cited for this material, I suggest it should be removed completely. Longitude2 ( talk) 09:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
BetsyRMadison - With this edit [5] it appears that you might have misrepresented the source.
You wrote, (in bold green is yours):
The
Cyprus Mail quoted Moscow native, Alex Christoforou, who claimed that Chilean embassies and consulates worldwide acquired "hundreds of thousands of calls" with questions about Lira’s fate. However, when Cyprus Mail contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia, the Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claim and would only confirm that he had "no information on Lira’s whereabouts.
Full quote from the source:
Earlier on Friday, and while Lira was still missing, the Cyprus Mail had contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia. At the time Honorary Consul George Zachariades said he had no information on Lira’s whereabouts.
He had tried to contact the Chilean consulate in Kiev, but to no avail.
Alex Christoforou, co-host of The Duran, told the Cyprus Mail that during the seven days of silence Chilean embassies and consulates around the world had received “hundreds of thousands of calls and messages” asking about Lira’s fate.
-->
[6]
You misrepresented:
quoted Moscow native
Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claimabout the phone calls.
I’m inviting you to correct that please. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 21:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
So the following has been inserted several times:
Lira posted videos with titles such as "Never Date a Woman in her Thirties" and argued that all women really only want money.
The Daily Beast is referenced as the source.
Problem is, Lira never posted a video with that name (I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute). And the line "[He] argued that all women really only want money" is not a direct quote from him. In fact it's really just a smear.
That's why I've removed it consistently.-- Dorfpert ( talk) 19:21, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute.Just because something is no longer there, does not mean that it never existed. Please read WP:BRD and WP:NOTTRUTH.
"Daily Beast" article not reliable source.The problem with that is the DB is one of the pillars currently holding up this article in WP namespace, an article under threat of deletion. We cannot have it both ways. While I would discount any bias that they may have, such as repeating that others called Lira "sleazy" and a "shill", the excised sentence was a simple statement of fact, and should be reinstated. See WP:NOTCENSORED. Havradim leaf a message 20:27, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
In November 2021, Lira deleted most of his CRP content and began posting under his legal name.So, whether or not the video is currently publicly accessible is immaterial to this discussion. Havradim leaf a message 20:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
I've said I think Lira is a lolcow. However, he IS notable. But there are people in this community who hate him beyond reason. They are nitpicking every little thing to get him smeared and/or removed. It's very funny! But I find it confusing.
I reviewed his previous entry, which was deleted in 2014. The same thing occurred. People brigaded the entry. They slowly stripped it of everything this person has actually done (all of which is noteworthy). They removed the fact that he was a published author. There was even one version where the editor removed the indisputable fact that he was a film director, and wrote under his picture while filming, "Lira holding a camera for some reason"! Then when the entry was picked clean, it was deleted.
It is clear to me that some people really hate this guy.
I go on this platform every 2 or 3 years for a while. I do it for fun, then lose interest, then I pick it up again. But I think I'll stay this time and monitor this entry. Because I think he's ridiculous, but this is unfair. And it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia, which is to present information about the world and the people in it. Whether we like them or not.
-- Dorfpert ( talk) 11:40, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
I removed @
Dorfpert: edit that claimed,
"Lira is a direct descendant of José Miguel Carrera, the first president of Chile, and Ignacio de la Carrera, who signed the first declaration of independence of Chile."
The questionable source that Dorfbert used does not say that. So Dorfpert's claim is not supported.
Yesterday is the first day Dorfpert edited on wikipedia, this topic is the only topic Dorfpert has edited, and Dorfpert has gone over the WP:3RR limit
[16]. To avoid Dorfpert unwittingly starting an edit war, Dorfbert should stop reverting and explain on this page why he/she thinks his/her questionable source makes that claim. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BetsyRMadison (
talk •
contribs)
22:45, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
The article currently contains the following text:
During the Russian offensive toward Kyiv, Lira criticised the government of
Volodymyr Zelenskyy for
arming the local population with weapons when the
Territorial Defense Forces was expanded,
[1] a move that Lira said caused a rise in crime.
[2] Lira did not provide any evidence to corroborate this allegation.
[3]
Is this particular opinion about something that happened in the first weeks of the war
WP:DUE on this page? I would suggest deleting it.--
Ermenrich (
talk)
14:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
one reason why the subject has been receiving so much attention. Unabashedly criticising a government at war on a public platform while simultaneously being subject to its jurisdiction is unusual. Havradim leaf a message 16:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
who presumably were now armed to the teeth and prowling around the subject's neighbourhood. I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. This isn't even what he's complaining about here: it's the arming of civilians as such - which was a frequently criticized talking point among Russian propagandists and not a particularly notable opinion.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 18:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
References
"MOSCOW (UrduPoint News / Sputnik - 21st April, 2022) The Russian Foreign Ministry's spokeswoman said on Thursday she hoped that Chilean journalist Gonzalo Lira Lopez, who disappeared in Kharkiv after criticizing Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, was alive and well.
Maria Zakharova said the journalist provided on-the-ground coverage of the Russian military operation in Ukraine, first from the capital of Kiev and then from the eastern city of Kharkiv, drawing the attention of the Ukrainian security service and the notorious Azov battalion.
"We sincerely hope that... Gonzalo and his family are doing well," Zakharova wrote on Telegram.
The Chilean Foreign Ministry told Sputnik on Thursday that it was investigating the whereabouts of its national. The 54-year-old has not been heard from since last Friday when he posted about "Zelensky regime" on social media."
From UrduPoint, https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/russian-foreign-ministry-hopes-chilean-journa-1500509.html
If being singled out by the Russian Foreign Ministry does not make a person notable, what does? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.86.220.212 ( talk) 23:07, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
He might be better known as Coach Red Pill at least I knew of him for years as that before knowing his actual name, but recent media attention may be primarily what he's known for and not earlier activities and that may have made him become better known as Gonzalo Lira -- Immanuelle ( talk) 21:02, 02 May 2022 (UTC)
From
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere formerly known as Coach Red Pill. Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]
Perhaps To:
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger and YouTuber who has produced video and written content on an evolving list of topics to include "Russia's Invasion of the Ukraine," "The Man-O-Sphere" under the moniker of Coach Red Pill, and "Contrarian Economics." Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4] 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 13:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
PS the word used was "How a Sleazy American Dating Coach Became a Pro-Putin Shill in Ukraine" .. so the Daily Beast describes him as a Pro-Putin Shill which is stronger than a pro-Putin perspective and consistent with a person that is notable for being nefarious. 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 13:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a fringe Chilean-American blogger, YouTuber, and commentator. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine, there were false assertions and assumptions that he was killed.[4]
Appreciate sources and footnotes to support the above. 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 12:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
From
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere known as Coach Red Pill. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]
To
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger on Telegram and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support of the "provoked, justified, and righteous Russian invasion of Ukraine.' He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" and it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti- Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda.
Prior to blogging about the invasion Lira was a misogynistic Man-o-Sphere commentator and self ascribed dating coach and advisor (Coach Red Pill) who espoused the position that women only desire money and children, and that Ukrainian women were both pliant and satisfied with their assigned gender roles. Prior to that, and In 2010, Lira began contributing blog articles to Zero Hedge, naked capitalism, Seeking Alpha and Business Insider, despite have no economic background, no financial education, and no business experience in the financial markets." [1]
71.203.10.104 ( talk) 01:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
green textare proposed & sourced additions:
[a social media outlet known for being a "tool of conspiracy theorists," and "a cesspit of antisemitic content"][2] [3] and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support
of Russia expanding it's 2014 invasion to include Russia's 2022 plan of installing a "pro-Kremlin puppet government in Kyiv" by toppling Ukraine's democratically elected government.][4] He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" [
during "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15][5]. [
With no proof,]it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti-Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 17:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Ermenrich: deleted the fact that Russia was bombing Kharkiv, Ukraine, the place where Lira claims he blogs from. I added back in and here's why: It's important fact to include the "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15 [6] [7] at the exact same time Lira's "family lost contact with him." Therefore, while the sources don't mention "Lira" by name (and no reason why they should, he's just a blogger like zillions of others) the sources do confirm & mention that Russia's illegal invasion & bombing in Kharkiv, that "killed ten civilians, including a 7-month-old child. Another 35 people were injured. Several residential buildings were damaged and destroyed." is the same place Lira claims he blogs from at the exact same time his family lost contact with him. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 16:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
@ BetsyRMadison Where did you see these two sources you are using (CNN and Denver Post [21]) speaking or mentioning the BLP (Gonzales Lira)? If they do, you should be able to demonstrate that. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 19:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC) To address the potential violation of the WP:BLP by the introduction of WP:OR I tagged the article accordingly. See [22] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 20:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Perhaps 'Category:Misogyny'? Xx236 ( talk) 07:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I see no reason to have a sentence about how worried a bunch of fringe bloggers were about his disappearance. This was a complete non-event: people lost touch with him on the 15th and he showed up again on the 22th, unharmed, making accusations that fit with the "Ukrainian Nazi government" stuff he spews (except I guess that he's alive). There is no reason to inflate this event by talking about who said what about where he was.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 22:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Instead of adding it straight away, I thought I'll ask here first: should the Template:Notability tag be added to the top of the page? The deletion discussion finished with no consensus regarding notability, therefore we perhaps should inform our readers that Lira's notability is still uncertain. BeŻet ( talk) 19:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - I do not think that the wording in the tag applies to this article. Reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention
have been found already. No one is saying that the Daily Beast and others are not reliable, only that they may be somewhat biased. The tag was meant for such articles as
Occupied Palestine and Syrian Golan Heights Advocacy Initiative, which is sourced only to blogs, social media and policy websites. In addition, I happen to have not understood the reasoning of the closer's closing remarks in the AfD discussion, because I think relisting this will only be an exercise in futility.
Havradim
leaf a message
22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Something is severely wrong in some of the arguments above. Of course the notability tag both could and should be added immediately, there is nothing to "wait for" regarding tags. It is true we should wait a couple of months before relisting for AfD, but whenever an article needs tagging, tags should be added right away. I've never seen a suggestion to "wait" to add a tag, and can find no support whatsoever in WP policies for that suggestion. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Support adding the tag immediately. @ Jeppiz: is correct, there's no reason to wait to add the tag. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 21:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Support adding the tag - The subject gains more weight by having an entry re-established on Wikipedia. "In determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not.I'm only
interested in the much more tractable question is it encyclopedic and NPOV or not." J Wales -- My point is that his "Vanity" vocations hold no relevance - his blogging holds relevance only for the drama he was able to generate. The subject is not encylopedic so (at the least) a notablity tag needs to be added.
71.203.10.104 (
talk) 02:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC) -- anon. only account blocked for disruptive editing -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - AfD just ended a few days ago. There was no agreement to delete and there was no agreement on subject notability. An alleged lack of notability has not been established. The article needs some rest before a second attempt to get rid of it, especially by the same editor. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
13:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
<--- —
User:71.203.10.104 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
@ GizzyCatBella: Since several people expressed the need for the tag, it should be placed there and not removed until the concerns are addressed. BeŻet ( talk) 14:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
@ GizzyCatBella: Could you please stop removing the tag when the issue is being actively discussed? You are confusing this with a content change, which needs consensus. This is a tag. Please return it. BeŻet ( talk) 11:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Please help to demonstrate the notability of the topic by citing reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention(emphasis mine). As anyone can see from the article, there are references [30] [31] which focus on the subject and go into great detail about him. The above sources (and more) are reliable and independent enough to be used in the article. BeZet boldly added it, with the explanation that
There is no consensus regarding notability of Lira, therefore the tag is adequate.The flaw in this reasoning is, that cleanup tags are not for the purpose of affirming one side of a deletion discussion's feelings about an article. It is only intended to call attention to random editors to add reliable sources (as opposed to blogs or trivial mentions) to a poorly sourced article. WP:TAGBOMB says "Consider applying only the most specific, helpful tags" (emphasis mine). My conclusion here is that the placement of this tag is unhelpful (read Wikipedia:Tagging pages for problems#Over-tagging, paragraph: Unhelpful tags). Any tag that was boldly added can just as easily be boldly removed unless a good explanation as to why it was placed there is forthcoming. Havradim leaf a message 02:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for.Show me a guideline that states this. Tags are ugly, and need to be placed there for a purpose, and that purpose is to alert people that the article needs improvement. Was your intention of placing this tag to get the article improved? If so, and you see for yourself that this action was contentious, why don't you try to improve it instead? Havradim leaf a message 22:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Tags are often used to indicate problems". Thus, as per wiki guidelines, the Tag is needed because the "problem" still exists & was not resolved. Thus, @ BeŻet: is 100% correct by stating
"the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there."BetsyRMadison ( talk) 23:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there."And that is a fact, not an opinion. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 23:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Havradim - I believe you should seek assistance at Dispute resolution [34] as I view that being the best option to resolve this potential WP:OVERTAG issue here. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 22:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Tags" are often used to indicate problems. Some Wikipedia editors object to the practice of tagging instead of fixing, but there is value in pointing out an article's problems. Tagging allows editors to specialize, teaches editors and warns readers about subpar or problematic content. It is better if people solve the problems they encounter themselves, but not everyone may be able to.
Looks to me that Wikipedia is being used as a propaganda tool. 73.23.68.218 ( talk) 18:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
The archived webpages of his YouTube channels that I have added show that he has purged both "Coach Red Pill" and "Gonzola Lira" channels. This was removed because they are "Lira's personal blogs", but that's wrong since they are no blogs but YouTube channels, and the pages were archives thereof, not direct links. Metro Siberia ( talk) 22:05, 10 May 2022 (UTC) ----<--- — Metro Siberia ( talk) joined wikipedia today, immediately removed the 'notability Tag' & has made few or no other edits outside this topic. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 01:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's not surprising that a little known YouTuber doesn't get much coverage. This is not notable or worth mentioning in the article. BeŻet ( talk) 12:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
It's clear now to be a huge mistake- what? I still think the article should be deleted as he hasn't received enough widespread coverage. Nobody has proven me wrong. BeŻet ( talk) 14:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Recent edits changed the YouTube channel from this to this. Can anyone confirm that the 2nd is indeed his channel as well. Should both be listed? -- ZimZalaBim talk 21:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Some sources cited in the article seem questionable:
Autarch ( talk) 22:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=R2yeSOcNlgE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:444:FEEB:B4F5:7B8C:FC90:CC9C ( talk) 10:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I've started a RSN discussion on the use of the Cyprus Mail here.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:29, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
There's not enough sources describing him as a "journalist", therefore we shouldn't describe him as such. He's primarily a YouTuber who happened to be in Ukraine during the conflict and posted some videos about it. BeŻet ( talk) 11:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I registered another source describing his as Journalist --> [2] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 12:38, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
The entire last paragraph of the Biography section (starting "In 2017, Lira was active on social networks") is completely unsourced, except for one reference at the end to an opinion article on The Daily Beast, which does not come close to meeting normal Wikipedia reliable-source criteria. Unless adequate reliable sources can be cited for this material, I suggest it should be removed completely. Longitude2 ( talk) 09:46, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
BetsyRMadison - With this edit [5] it appears that you might have misrepresented the source.
You wrote, (in bold green is yours):
The
Cyprus Mail quoted Moscow native, Alex Christoforou, who claimed that Chilean embassies and consulates worldwide acquired "hundreds of thousands of calls" with questions about Lira’s fate. However, when Cyprus Mail contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia, the Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claim and would only confirm that he had "no information on Lira’s whereabouts.
Full quote from the source:
Earlier on Friday, and while Lira was still missing, the Cyprus Mail had contacted the Consulate of Chile in Nicosia. At the time Honorary Consul George Zachariades said he had no information on Lira’s whereabouts.
He had tried to contact the Chilean consulate in Kiev, but to no avail.
Alex Christoforou, co-host of The Duran, told the Cyprus Mail that during the seven days of silence Chilean embassies and consulates around the world had received “hundreds of thousands of calls and messages” asking about Lira’s fate.
-->
[6]
You misrepresented:
quoted Moscow native
Honorary Consul George Zachariades did not substantiate Christoforou's claimabout the phone calls.
I’m inviting you to correct that please. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 21:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
So the following has been inserted several times:
Lira posted videos with titles such as "Never Date a Woman in her Thirties" and argued that all women really only want money.
The Daily Beast is referenced as the source.
Problem is, Lira never posted a video with that name (I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute). And the line "[He] argued that all women really only want money" is not a direct quote from him. In fact it's really just a smear.
That's why I've removed it consistently.-- Dorfpert ( talk) 19:21, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
I checked on YT, Rumble and BitChute.Just because something is no longer there, does not mean that it never existed. Please read WP:BRD and WP:NOTTRUTH.
"Daily Beast" article not reliable source.The problem with that is the DB is one of the pillars currently holding up this article in WP namespace, an article under threat of deletion. We cannot have it both ways. While I would discount any bias that they may have, such as repeating that others called Lira "sleazy" and a "shill", the excised sentence was a simple statement of fact, and should be reinstated. See WP:NOTCENSORED. Havradim leaf a message 20:27, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
In November 2021, Lira deleted most of his CRP content and began posting under his legal name.So, whether or not the video is currently publicly accessible is immaterial to this discussion. Havradim leaf a message 20:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
I've said I think Lira is a lolcow. However, he IS notable. But there are people in this community who hate him beyond reason. They are nitpicking every little thing to get him smeared and/or removed. It's very funny! But I find it confusing.
I reviewed his previous entry, which was deleted in 2014. The same thing occurred. People brigaded the entry. They slowly stripped it of everything this person has actually done (all of which is noteworthy). They removed the fact that he was a published author. There was even one version where the editor removed the indisputable fact that he was a film director, and wrote under his picture while filming, "Lira holding a camera for some reason"! Then when the entry was picked clean, it was deleted.
It is clear to me that some people really hate this guy.
I go on this platform every 2 or 3 years for a while. I do it for fun, then lose interest, then I pick it up again. But I think I'll stay this time and monitor this entry. Because I think he's ridiculous, but this is unfair. And it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia, which is to present information about the world and the people in it. Whether we like them or not.
-- Dorfpert ( talk) 11:40, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
I removed @
Dorfpert: edit that claimed,
"Lira is a direct descendant of José Miguel Carrera, the first president of Chile, and Ignacio de la Carrera, who signed the first declaration of independence of Chile."
The questionable source that Dorfbert used does not say that. So Dorfpert's claim is not supported.
Yesterday is the first day Dorfpert edited on wikipedia, this topic is the only topic Dorfpert has edited, and Dorfpert has gone over the WP:3RR limit
[16]. To avoid Dorfpert unwittingly starting an edit war, Dorfbert should stop reverting and explain on this page why he/she thinks his/her questionable source makes that claim. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
BetsyRMadison (
talk •
contribs)
22:45, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
The article currently contains the following text:
During the Russian offensive toward Kyiv, Lira criticised the government of
Volodymyr Zelenskyy for
arming the local population with weapons when the
Territorial Defense Forces was expanded,
[1] a move that Lira said caused a rise in crime.
[2] Lira did not provide any evidence to corroborate this allegation.
[3]
Is this particular opinion about something that happened in the first weeks of the war
WP:DUE on this page? I would suggest deleting it.--
Ermenrich (
talk)
14:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
one reason why the subject has been receiving so much attention. Unabashedly criticising a government at war on a public platform while simultaneously being subject to its jurisdiction is unusual. Havradim leaf a message 16:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
who presumably were now armed to the teeth and prowling around the subject's neighbourhood. I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. This isn't even what he's complaining about here: it's the arming of civilians as such - which was a frequently criticized talking point among Russian propagandists and not a particularly notable opinion.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 18:08, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
References
"MOSCOW (UrduPoint News / Sputnik - 21st April, 2022) The Russian Foreign Ministry's spokeswoman said on Thursday she hoped that Chilean journalist Gonzalo Lira Lopez, who disappeared in Kharkiv after criticizing Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, was alive and well.
Maria Zakharova said the journalist provided on-the-ground coverage of the Russian military operation in Ukraine, first from the capital of Kiev and then from the eastern city of Kharkiv, drawing the attention of the Ukrainian security service and the notorious Azov battalion.
"We sincerely hope that... Gonzalo and his family are doing well," Zakharova wrote on Telegram.
The Chilean Foreign Ministry told Sputnik on Thursday that it was investigating the whereabouts of its national. The 54-year-old has not been heard from since last Friday when he posted about "Zelensky regime" on social media."
From UrduPoint, https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/russian-foreign-ministry-hopes-chilean-journa-1500509.html
If being singled out by the Russian Foreign Ministry does not make a person notable, what does? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.86.220.212 ( talk) 23:07, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
He might be better known as Coach Red Pill at least I knew of him for years as that before knowing his actual name, but recent media attention may be primarily what he's known for and not earlier activities and that may have made him become better known as Gonzalo Lira -- Immanuelle ( talk) 21:02, 02 May 2022 (UTC)
From
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere formerly known as Coach Red Pill. Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]
Perhaps To:
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger and YouTuber who has produced video and written content on an evolving list of topics to include "Russia's Invasion of the Ukraine," "The Man-O-Sphere" under the moniker of Coach Red Pill, and "Contrarian Economics." Being a resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he was in Kyiv at the onset of the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine and started vlogging on the invasion from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he was detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4] 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 13:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
PS the word used was "How a Sleazy American Dating Coach Became a Pro-Putin Shill in Ukraine" .. so the Daily Beast describes him as a Pro-Putin Shill which is stronger than a pro-Putin perspective and consistent with a person that is notable for being nefarious. 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 13:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a fringe Chilean-American blogger, YouTuber, and commentator. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine, there were false assertions and assumptions that he was killed.[4]
Appreciate sources and footnotes to support the above. 71.203.10.104 ( talk) 12:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
From
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American novelist,[2] film director, financial blogger, YouTuber, and commentator in the manosphere known as Coach Red Pill. A resident of Kharkiv, Ukraine, he started vlogging about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine shortly after it began from what has been described by The Daily Beast as a pro-Putin perspective.[3] In April 2022, Lira alleged that he had been detained by the Security Service of Ukraine.[4]
To
Gonzalo Lira López (born February 29, 1968) is a Chilean-American blogger on Telegram and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support of the "provoked, justified, and righteous Russian invasion of Ukraine.' He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" and it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti- Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda.
Prior to blogging about the invasion Lira was a misogynistic Man-o-Sphere commentator and self ascribed dating coach and advisor (Coach Red Pill) who espoused the position that women only desire money and children, and that Ukrainian women were both pliant and satisfied with their assigned gender roles. Prior to that, and In 2010, Lira began contributing blog articles to Zero Hedge, naked capitalism, Seeking Alpha and Business Insider, despite have no economic background, no financial education, and no business experience in the financial markets." [1]
71.203.10.104 ( talk) 01:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
green textare proposed & sourced additions:
[a social media outlet known for being a "tool of conspiracy theorists," and "a cesspit of antisemitic content"][2] [3] and a video blogger on Youtube who lives as an expatriate in Kharkiv Ukraine. As of April 2022, Lira started blogging in support
of Russia expanding it's 2014 invasion to include Russia's 2022 plan of installing a "pro-Kremlin puppet government in Kyiv" by toppling Ukraine's democratically elected government.][4] He opines that Ukraine will eventually be split and absorbed by Russia and Poland. In April 2022, Lira gained notoriety in Russian journals, and the blogosphere, when he "went missing" [
during "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15][5]. [
With no proof,]it was alleged that he had been detained and killed by the Security Service of Ukraine in retaliation for his Anti-Volodymyr_Zelenskyy and anti-Ukrainian blogging. Lira was not killed and he continues to blog Russian war propaganda on Youtube. In justification of the Russian invasion Lira's opinions have been highlighted in the Russian propaganda outlet Pravda. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 17:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Ermenrich: deleted the fact that Russia was bombing Kharkiv, Ukraine, the place where Lira claims he blogs from. I added back in and here's why: It's important fact to include the "Russia’s bombardment" of Kharkiv, Ukraine on April 15 [6] [7] at the exact same time Lira's "family lost contact with him." Therefore, while the sources don't mention "Lira" by name (and no reason why they should, he's just a blogger like zillions of others) the sources do confirm & mention that Russia's illegal invasion & bombing in Kharkiv, that "killed ten civilians, including a 7-month-old child. Another 35 people were injured. Several residential buildings were damaged and destroyed." is the same place Lira claims he blogs from at the exact same time his family lost contact with him. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 16:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
@ BetsyRMadison Where did you see these two sources you are using (CNN and Denver Post [21]) speaking or mentioning the BLP (Gonzales Lira)? If they do, you should be able to demonstrate that. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 19:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC) To address the potential violation of the WP:BLP by the introduction of WP:OR I tagged the article accordingly. See [22] - GizzyCatBella 🍁 20:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Perhaps 'Category:Misogyny'? Xx236 ( talk) 07:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I see no reason to have a sentence about how worried a bunch of fringe bloggers were about his disappearance. This was a complete non-event: people lost touch with him on the 15th and he showed up again on the 22th, unharmed, making accusations that fit with the "Ukrainian Nazi government" stuff he spews (except I guess that he's alive). There is no reason to inflate this event by talking about who said what about where he was.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 22:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Instead of adding it straight away, I thought I'll ask here first: should the Template:Notability tag be added to the top of the page? The deletion discussion finished with no consensus regarding notability, therefore we perhaps should inform our readers that Lira's notability is still uncertain. BeŻet ( talk) 19:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - I do not think that the wording in the tag applies to this article. Reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention
have been found already. No one is saying that the Daily Beast and others are not reliable, only that they may be somewhat biased. The tag was meant for such articles as
Occupied Palestine and Syrian Golan Heights Advocacy Initiative, which is sourced only to blogs, social media and policy websites. In addition, I happen to have not understood the reasoning of the closer's closing remarks in the AfD discussion, because I think relisting this will only be an exercise in futility.
Havradim
leaf a message
22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Something is severely wrong in some of the arguments above. Of course the notability tag both could and should be added immediately, there is nothing to "wait for" regarding tags. It is true we should wait a couple of months before relisting for AfD, but whenever an article needs tagging, tags should be added right away. I've never seen a suggestion to "wait" to add a tag, and can find no support whatsoever in WP policies for that suggestion. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Support adding the tag immediately. @ Jeppiz: is correct, there's no reason to wait to add the tag. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 21:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Support adding the tag - The subject gains more weight by having an entry re-established on Wikipedia. "In determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not.I'm only
interested in the much more tractable question is it encyclopedic and NPOV or not." J Wales -- My point is that his "Vanity" vocations hold no relevance - his blogging holds relevance only for the drama he was able to generate. The subject is not encylopedic so (at the least) a notablity tag needs to be added.
71.203.10.104 (
talk) 02:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC) -- anon. only account blocked for disruptive editing -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose - AfD just ended a few days ago. There was no agreement to delete and there was no agreement on subject notability. An alleged lack of notability has not been established. The article needs some rest before a second attempt to get rid of it, especially by the same editor. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
13:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
<--- —
User:71.203.10.104 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic.
@ GizzyCatBella: Since several people expressed the need for the tag, it should be placed there and not removed until the concerns are addressed. BeŻet ( talk) 14:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
@ GizzyCatBella: Could you please stop removing the tag when the issue is being actively discussed? You are confusing this with a content change, which needs consensus. This is a tag. Please return it. BeŻet ( talk) 11:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Please help to demonstrate the notability of the topic by citing reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic and provide significant coverage of it beyond a mere trivial mention(emphasis mine). As anyone can see from the article, there are references [30] [31] which focus on the subject and go into great detail about him. The above sources (and more) are reliable and independent enough to be used in the article. BeZet boldly added it, with the explanation that
There is no consensus regarding notability of Lira, therefore the tag is adequate.The flaw in this reasoning is, that cleanup tags are not for the purpose of affirming one side of a deletion discussion's feelings about an article. It is only intended to call attention to random editors to add reliable sources (as opposed to blogs or trivial mentions) to a poorly sourced article. WP:TAGBOMB says "Consider applying only the most specific, helpful tags" (emphasis mine). My conclusion here is that the placement of this tag is unhelpful (read Wikipedia:Tagging pages for problems#Over-tagging, paragraph: Unhelpful tags). Any tag that was boldly added can just as easily be boldly removed unless a good explanation as to why it was placed there is forthcoming. Havradim leaf a message 02:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for.Show me a guideline that states this. Tags are ugly, and need to be placed there for a purpose, and that purpose is to alert people that the article needs improvement. Was your intention of placing this tag to get the article improved? If so, and you see for yourself that this action was contentious, why don't you try to improve it instead? Havradim leaf a message 22:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Tags are often used to indicate problems". Thus, as per wiki guidelines, the Tag is needed because the "problem" still exists & was not resolved. Thus, @ BeŻet: is 100% correct by stating
"the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there."BetsyRMadison ( talk) 23:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"the notability of the subject has not been established - there is currently no consensus. This is exactly the sort of situations the tag was designed for ... This subject is disputed, and therefore the tag should be there."And that is a fact, not an opinion. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 23:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Havradim - I believe you should seek assistance at Dispute resolution [34] as I view that being the best option to resolve this potential WP:OVERTAG issue here. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 22:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Tags" are often used to indicate problems. Some Wikipedia editors object to the practice of tagging instead of fixing, but there is value in pointing out an article's problems. Tagging allows editors to specialize, teaches editors and warns readers about subpar or problematic content. It is better if people solve the problems they encounter themselves, but not everyone may be able to.
Looks to me that Wikipedia is being used as a propaganda tool. 73.23.68.218 ( talk) 18:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
The archived webpages of his YouTube channels that I have added show that he has purged both "Coach Red Pill" and "Gonzola Lira" channels. This was removed because they are "Lira's personal blogs", but that's wrong since they are no blogs but YouTube channels, and the pages were archives thereof, not direct links. Metro Siberia ( talk) 22:05, 10 May 2022 (UTC) ----<--- — Metro Siberia ( talk) joined wikipedia today, immediately removed the 'notability Tag' & has made few or no other edits outside this topic. BetsyRMadison ( talk) 01:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's not surprising that a little known YouTuber doesn't get much coverage. This is not notable or worth mentioning in the article. BeŻet ( talk) 12:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
It's clear now to be a huge mistake- what? I still think the article should be deleted as he hasn't received enough widespread coverage. Nobody has proven me wrong. BeŻet ( talk) 14:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Recent edits changed the YouTube channel from this to this. Can anyone confirm that the 2nd is indeed his channel as well. Should both be listed? -- ZimZalaBim talk 21:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)