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Can we get a better pic? This one doesn't cap the gorgeous gold color at all...
I have a bunch of 8X10 pictures of the Golden Hawks flying around Alberta. They we given to me by my Grandfather in his will. (j1j2j3j4j5j6)
This page is about the Golden Hawks. I am adding some data about the Golden Hawks. There is no logical reason for reverting these edits. This was a team of men, unusual men.
If this data about a set of men the world will not see again is not captured now, it will be lost to history forever. It is appropriate for this page. Please give a good reason otherwise, or stop reverting the addition of this information. Commonjazz ( talk) 21:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Typically biographies of important or significant individuals can be accommodated in separate articles on each individual. For an air demonstration team with many participants over the years, perhaps the only thing that is necessary is a short (and referenced) note on the team leads? for example. FWiW, take a look at the RCAF Snowbirds, USN Blue Angels and USAF Thunderbirds articles as a guide to how to develop this article. Bzuk ( talk) 00:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC).
Regardless of one person's interpretation, this is a cooperative and collaborative project that requires consensus and since there is none at this point, let me suggest the following:
(Edit)Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots including: Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve who led the team, with F/O Bill C. Stewart, F/L Ralph E. Annis, F/L Edward Rozdeba, F/O John T. Price and F/O Jim A. Holt. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
S/L Ferne Villeneuve was with the Hawks from the beginning in 1959 as leader of the team, moving to flying the lead position when F/L Jim McCombe became the leader in 1961.ref Dempsey 2002, p. 139. ref Villeneuve had to leave the team when he became married, under the Hawks rule of only two years for married men. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref
F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, he moved to lead solo. Price then had leave after two years because he was married. The Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families.
F/L Ed Rozdeba joined the Hawks in 1959. He first flew position 3, on the left hand side. In his third year, Rozdeba flew the slot. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 161–163. ref
F/O William (Bill) Stewart joined the Hawks in 1959 as a spare, then moved to the slot #4 position, then second solo, then lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 04:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC). ---
Another edit: (probably to be incorporated into history section)
Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots led by Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve before being replaced by F/L Jim McCombe in 1961. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 139.
This edit is extremely small and I would make the case that the following is better:
Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots including: Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve who led the team, with F/O Bill C. Stewart, F/L Ralph E. Annis, F/L Edward Rozdeba, F/O John T. Price and F/O Jim A. Holt. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
In 1961 F/L Jim McCombe became the leader of the team, as Villeneuve left the team when he became married, under the Hawks rule of only two years for married men. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref Tag:ref Price then had leave after two years because he was married. The Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families. Note to reader. Two deaths altered the makeup of the team: F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, Price moved to lead solo.
F/O William (Bill) Stewart's routine was often the one most remembered as lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:32, 23 November 2012 (UTC).
Here we go again:
Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots led by Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
In 1961, F/L Jim McCombe became the leader of the team, as Villeneuve left the team when he married. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref Tag:ref Villeneuve and F/O Price both had to leave the team because the Golden Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families. Note to reader. Two deaths altered the makeup of the team: F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, P/O John Price moved to lead solo.
F/O William (Bill) Stewart's routine was often the one most remembered as lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 01:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Let's summarize, the original submission was a precis on a number of Golden Hawks pilots and their career histories (titled: "biographies") and elicited a response from a number of editors. The main concerns were that the new section did not fit as being notable, and if some of the individuals were notable on their own, they could appear in separate biographical articles. The admonition to begin a talk page discussion on the article talk page where the development of the subject is found, led to this discourse where a number of editors have indicated their observations, which in brief, included addressing the issues of relevance, notablity, use of verified and authoritative references, tendentious editing as well as WP:Weight. Other comments about the use of consensus can be directed to more appropriate forums as this is one of the "lynchpins" of the Wikipedia project, that diverse views are recognized and that collaborative and cooperative work is only possible through achieving consensus. (One note is that consensus is not vote-counting, instead, it is the acceptance of the agreed-upon decision by all.) FWiW, the latest edit proposal appears to have garnered support, but I am awaiting other comments, suggestions and ideas. Bzuk ( talk) 14:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC).
Check the article, since so much was already established, I thought the best course was to supplement the "back" history, rather than create a new section. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I can appreciate that User:Commonjazz ( User talk:Commonjazz) is seeking replies to their points raised. While no editor is obliged to be helpful it can, err... be helpful to do so. It seems to me that several of those points appear on the face of it to justify additional content. But due to the heat generated to date, these points need verifiable references before they can be accepted by others. Doing this is a chore, but a necessary one. For example, is there a reference to the reliability of and/or respect for Dempsey's book, or a reference to the team as a "national treasure" or similar, and so on? Some of those old newspaper articles might need digging out. HTH. — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 18:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC) - [edited] — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 18:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Has this discourse steered "off course" into a "tempest in a teapot" syndrome (sorry for mangling so many metaphors)? Introducing details about individual pilots' careers that did not relate to their role as a Golden Hawk was the original issue. Whenever creating a biographical article or introducing personal details, there is also the necessity to establish notability as the Wiki project is an encyclopedia with the onus to concentrate on essential details. There was already a background history in the article that emphasized the team's beginnings and the significant pilots that were involved. As to claims that Canadian aviation history is being minimized is simply a "straw man" argument, as can be easily disproved by the quantity and quality of articles that are already devoted to this topic. As to the further claims of ownership, my retort would be "water off a duck's back". A concerted effort was made to achieve consensus but as earlier stated, it requires commitment and the ability to work with others. FWiW, I have added the clarifying statements to the talk page headers, FYI. Bzuk ( talk) 03:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC).
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theres one in brockville,bellville, barrie and one in CWH in hamilton all in Golden Hawks colors..
do some research!!
Darrenvox ( talk) 02:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Golden Hawks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Can we get a better pic? This one doesn't cap the gorgeous gold color at all...
I have a bunch of 8X10 pictures of the Golden Hawks flying around Alberta. They we given to me by my Grandfather in his will. (j1j2j3j4j5j6)
This page is about the Golden Hawks. I am adding some data about the Golden Hawks. There is no logical reason for reverting these edits. This was a team of men, unusual men.
If this data about a set of men the world will not see again is not captured now, it will be lost to history forever. It is appropriate for this page. Please give a good reason otherwise, or stop reverting the addition of this information. Commonjazz ( talk) 21:28, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Typically biographies of important or significant individuals can be accommodated in separate articles on each individual. For an air demonstration team with many participants over the years, perhaps the only thing that is necessary is a short (and referenced) note on the team leads? for example. FWiW, take a look at the RCAF Snowbirds, USN Blue Angels and USAF Thunderbirds articles as a guide to how to develop this article. Bzuk ( talk) 00:11, 23 November 2012 (UTC).
Regardless of one person's interpretation, this is a cooperative and collaborative project that requires consensus and since there is none at this point, let me suggest the following:
(Edit)Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots including: Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve who led the team, with F/O Bill C. Stewart, F/L Ralph E. Annis, F/L Edward Rozdeba, F/O John T. Price and F/O Jim A. Holt. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
S/L Ferne Villeneuve was with the Hawks from the beginning in 1959 as leader of the team, moving to flying the lead position when F/L Jim McCombe became the leader in 1961.ref Dempsey 2002, p. 139. ref Villeneuve had to leave the team when he became married, under the Hawks rule of only two years for married men. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref
F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, he moved to lead solo. Price then had leave after two years because he was married. The Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families.
F/L Ed Rozdeba joined the Hawks in 1959. He first flew position 3, on the left hand side. In his third year, Rozdeba flew the slot. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 161–163. ref
F/O William (Bill) Stewart joined the Hawks in 1959 as a spare, then moved to the slot #4 position, then second solo, then lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 04:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC). ---
Another edit: (probably to be incorporated into history section)
Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots led by Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve before being replaced by F/L Jim McCombe in 1961. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 139.
This edit is extremely small and I would make the case that the following is better:
Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots including: Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve who led the team, with F/O Bill C. Stewart, F/L Ralph E. Annis, F/L Edward Rozdeba, F/O John T. Price and F/O Jim A. Holt. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
In 1961 F/L Jim McCombe became the leader of the team, as Villeneuve left the team when he became married, under the Hawks rule of only two years for married men. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref Tag:ref Price then had leave after two years because he was married. The Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families. Note to reader. Two deaths altered the makeup of the team: F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, Price moved to lead solo.
F/O William (Bill) Stewart's routine was often the one most remembered as lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 17:32, 23 November 2012 (UTC).
Here we go again:
Notable Golden Hawks pilots
As originally consisted in 1959, the Golden Hawks had eight RCAF pilots led by Squadron Leader Vern Villeneuve. ref Mummery, Robert. Snowbirds: Canada's Ambassadors of the Sky. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada: Reidmore Books, 1984, p. 8. ISBN 0-919091-37-7. ref
In 1961, F/L Jim McCombe became the leader of the team, as Villeneuve left the team when he married. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 157. ref Tag:ref Villeneuve and F/O Price both had to leave the team because the Golden Hawks had a rule of three years for single men, max two years for married men, since the schedule was hard on their families. Note to reader. Two deaths altered the makeup of the team: F/O J.T. Price joined the Hawks in 1959 after F/O Sam Eisler died, and served as second solo. ref Dempsey 2002, p. 154. ref When F/L Jeb Kerr died in a crash in Calgary, P/O John Price moved to lead solo.
F/O William (Bill) Stewart's routine was often the one most remembered as lead solo performing the low-level aerobatics that looked to the crowd to be particularly dangerous. ref Dempsey 2002, pp. 160–162. ref FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 01:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Let's summarize, the original submission was a precis on a number of Golden Hawks pilots and their career histories (titled: "biographies") and elicited a response from a number of editors. The main concerns were that the new section did not fit as being notable, and if some of the individuals were notable on their own, they could appear in separate biographical articles. The admonition to begin a talk page discussion on the article talk page where the development of the subject is found, led to this discourse where a number of editors have indicated their observations, which in brief, included addressing the issues of relevance, notablity, use of verified and authoritative references, tendentious editing as well as WP:Weight. Other comments about the use of consensus can be directed to more appropriate forums as this is one of the "lynchpins" of the Wikipedia project, that diverse views are recognized and that collaborative and cooperative work is only possible through achieving consensus. (One note is that consensus is not vote-counting, instead, it is the acceptance of the agreed-upon decision by all.) FWiW, the latest edit proposal appears to have garnered support, but I am awaiting other comments, suggestions and ideas. Bzuk ( talk) 14:43, 24 November 2012 (UTC).
Check the article, since so much was already established, I thought the best course was to supplement the "back" history, rather than create a new section. FWiW Bzuk ( talk) 16:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I can appreciate that User:Commonjazz ( User talk:Commonjazz) is seeking replies to their points raised. While no editor is obliged to be helpful it can, err... be helpful to do so. It seems to me that several of those points appear on the face of it to justify additional content. But due to the heat generated to date, these points need verifiable references before they can be accepted by others. Doing this is a chore, but a necessary one. For example, is there a reference to the reliability of and/or respect for Dempsey's book, or a reference to the team as a "national treasure" or similar, and so on? Some of those old newspaper articles might need digging out. HTH. — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 18:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC) - [edited] — Cheers, Steelpillow ( Talk) 18:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Has this discourse steered "off course" into a "tempest in a teapot" syndrome (sorry for mangling so many metaphors)? Introducing details about individual pilots' careers that did not relate to their role as a Golden Hawk was the original issue. Whenever creating a biographical article or introducing personal details, there is also the necessity to establish notability as the Wiki project is an encyclopedia with the onus to concentrate on essential details. There was already a background history in the article that emphasized the team's beginnings and the significant pilots that were involved. As to claims that Canadian aviation history is being minimized is simply a "straw man" argument, as can be easily disproved by the quantity and quality of articles that are already devoted to this topic. As to the further claims of ownership, my retort would be "water off a duck's back". A concerted effort was made to achieve consensus but as earlier stated, it requires commitment and the ability to work with others. FWiW, I have added the clarifying statements to the talk page headers, FYI. Bzuk ( talk) 03:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC).
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:39, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
theres one in brockville,bellville, barrie and one in CWH in hamilton all in Golden Hawks colors..
do some research!!
Darrenvox ( talk) 02:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)