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A couple of days ago, I deleted a very long, discursive and irrelevant quote from a self-published novelist called Fady Bahig that appeared on this page. What do you know, I turn up today and it has found its way back in thanks to some unregistered user! I've reverted the page to remove the quotation again. If anyone sees very long quotations from this random person sneaking back in, could they please remove them? Wikipedia isn't an advertising forum. Thank you! -- TinaSparkle 15:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I've copyedited, NPOVed and cleaned up large parts of this article, and converted it from essay-style text into encyclopedic text, and edited it down to a manageable length - all as per Wikipedia policy. There is still an awful lot to be done, especially in the "Translating the names of God into English" section, which is far too long, too wordy, too filled with quotes and generally like someone's essay on the subject rather than an encyclopedia article. Interesting though much of this material may be, it is not relevant, and is inappropriate in an encyclopedia article.
There is a great deal still to be done to make this article readable, clear, unbiased and informative. I would encourage everyone to read Wikipedia's guide to writing great articles (click through the Help links) and not pad this piece out with lots of extraneous detail which will confuse and discourage the general reader. -- TinaSparkle 19:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Not all Christians believe in genderless God; in fact, the maleness of God the Father and God the Son are beliefs that have influenced Christianity profoundly throughout its existence, from denounciations of heresies which suggest women should or even have been priests or bishops, historic debates on whether women had souls or were less in the image of God and more like animals, to restrictions on women's role in church, marriage and family life. I think most contemporary lay Christians and some theologians might disagree with current statemnt "In Christianity, God is believed to be intrinsically sexless." SC 04:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the point should be expressed more clearly/prominently on the page that some Christians believe that God is simply beyond gender identification. Genderless is not exactly equivalent to being transcendent beyond gender. All of our languages, even the ancient ones, are limited in their ability to express this, and God generally springs out of any conceptual box that we mortals try to put Him/Her/It/Them/*/ in. It is important to acknowledge that the traditional view of a masculine God strongly shaped church history. It did, and that is a fact. However, while God is not changing, our understanding of Him (for lack of a better term) is.
My opinion, we probably shouldn't make such a big deal out of it, and worry instead about following the chief command issued by God, namely "Love your neighbor as yourself." Sr.Wombat 02:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
And mine just happens to be that believing an omnipotent God having a gender is completely ludicrous, considering that nature would code for such a thing (and the fact that God would almost certainly have no need of either a penis or sperm, unless polytheistic beliefs are accurate, in which case we wouldn't be talking about "God"). I can't imagine why somebody would have to debate something so frivolous. (By the way, I meant no offense to anyone by that statement- it's just offhand common sense.) Robinson0120 08:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost every last word of the christianity section is dedicated to the heterodox views of God's gender. That's quite insufficient. Thanatosimii 01:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the text:
The "-iym" ending, in Hebrew the word Elohiym is plural, and not to be confused with the dual endings of mayim (water) and chayyim (Life). These are one substance, but with a certain fluidity demanding terminology expressing this. The water has no one true surface - its form is ever changing face. In "Chayyim", we are dealing with a Hebrew concept of more than one type of life combined. Had this been the only need for an other than singular ending for "Elohiym", the dual "-im", not the true plural "-iym" would have been employed. We cannot attribute to this word any singularity of form in the Hebrew Bible. When not referring to GOD, it is always plural. But no Hebrew saw GOD as alike to HIS creation. - thus the term "ELOHIYM", as reserved for divine reference, though coupled with singular verbs (though not always), is used not to denote one person but more than one displaying perfect unity. The word Elohim is not the only plural noun used for GOD in the Tanakh. When people read this word in the Bible as singular, they are creating a presumptious warping of historical religious nomenclature. The word elohim had an origin that gave it a straightforward plural grammatical form, whatever post-Biblical Israelites have since thought of this word. The Encyclopedia Judaica has this to say, however, in the article "Names of God".
This supports the evidence that this term, thought orthodox enough for such wide usage by Israel, from the beginning, was not unacceptible as originally understood - if it was a matter of eclipsing a Cana'anite heathenism, it was hardly reasonable to begin by adopting a term that, apart from redefinition, was contradictory to their idea of the Unity of GOD.
I really don't understand what the following passage is supposed to mean:
On page "Elohim" there is absolutely nothing about morphological archaism, but there was some linguistically-incorrect information about "Eloah" being feminine in form which I have removed (see Talk:Elohim). The page Elohim is in desperate need of a major overhaul in any case. AnonMoos 02:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
We have thus far been unable to determine the gender of the Greek pronouns used in speaking of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. If you have a Greek or Interlinear New Testament and speak Greek, help us out by checking this out and reporting back on what pronouns are used. As can be seen above, the grammatical structure in John 14, a passage which speaks extensively of the Holy Spirit, has apparently left us unable to discover this piece of information, which is somewhat important ot this debate.
The above is accurate but the article itself is flagrantly incorrect and self-contradictory. Autos is of the masculine gender, (auta would be feminine and auto would be neuter.) In 14:17 the neuter form of autos is used (auto) while in 14:26 the masculine form of ekeinos is used. Yet, clearly these refer to the same entity as the advocate and the holy spirit are placed in apposition to each in 14:26. This once again demonstrates the fallacy of equating grammatical gender with sexual gender. It should also not read neutral gender where the correct term is neuter.
I have removed Isaiah 66:12 and Hosea 11:1-3 from the article. The author claimed that these were references to God as a mother figure. This is not the case (although God is compared to a mother in Isaiah 63:13, the remaining quote). Isaiah 66:12 must be seen in context. Begin reading at v. 7 and it will become clear that the "her" referred to is not God, but Zion (Jerusalem in v. 10 - same thing). The Hosea reference is fairly vague. It clearly refers to God as a parent, but not necessarily a mother. kpearce 17:51 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)
C. S. Lewis made a fascinating argument about this that is worth reporting. He said something to the effect that "If God is female, She is so profoundly and completely female that the most feminine of us must be male by comparison. And if God is male, He is so profoundly and completely male that the most masculine of us must be female by comparison." User:142.177.77.69
I was very suprised that there was no discussion of God and gender in Hinduism as all Hindus worship Shakti or Devi who is viewed as God the Divine Mother. So, I have added a section. User:Raj2004
Some pagans also believe in gender neutral, androgynous, and "third sex" deities.
Hindu's are not pagan / polytheist, see God, pantheism, panentheism, etc... Also Shiva isn't 1/2 female. Also, pagan is often a slur (particularly outside of the modern, secular west), polytheist would be correct (except it isn't ;) Sam [ Spade] 13:05, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Sam and COGDEN, Cogden is partially correct. Hindus believe that nature of the Ultimate Reality, i.e., God or Shiva has really no form. But form is needed for humans to concentrate as Saguna Brahman. One of the form symbolzing that God is everything, is Ardhanarishvara, half-male and half-female, representing all genders of all living things. See source, http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/M04.html additionally, see, http://www.dlshq.org/download/lordsiva.htm As for Ganesh, Ganesh is never presented in that manner. As a practical point, Hinduism is too broad a term and is really four divisions. 1) Vaishnvaism 2) Shaivism 3) Shaktism and 4) Smarta see below web site. Ganesh, by 99% of Hindus is not the Supreme God, who is typically in Hinduism is Vishnu or Shiva. Ganesh is worshipped for material success just as Christians veneraate saints. Even most Smartas pray to either Vishnu or Shiva. As a practical point, Hindus are mostly liberal in theology. However, if pressed to identity, 75-80% of Hindus are Vaishnvaites. So this theme about being a polytheistic religion is garbage. See http://www.gitamrta.org/, misconceptions about Hinduism In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna, avatar of Vishnu states that He alone is God. Those who worship Devas, commonly potrayed as gods in Western media are of limited understanding. http://www.harekrishna.com/~ara/col/books/BG/tsem1.html; The Gita itself preaches strong Vaishnavite monotheism.
And for Cogden to understand the nature of what Hinduism is, and not the proproganda what is presented, please see http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/M02.html. I believe that you are Mormon and many do not consider Mormonism to be part of Christianity. I withold judgment on that as I am not familiar with Mormonism, as you are not familiar with Hinduism. Also see the commentary on wikpedia's Vishnu sahasranama; it shows that Vishnu and Shiva are one and the same. Thank you.
That is again a POV. he reason that Hinduism is perceived as polytheistic because most Hindus follow the Smarta school, which follows Advaita philosophy. All forms of God are merely different aspects of Brahman, the impersonal Absolute which can never be defined. This school is an inclusive monotheistic school unlike an exclusive monotheistic school. (please see the monotheism article.
Thank you.
Raj2004 02:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem. Yes, perhaps pagan has a negative connotation. Hindus have also a term for people who they considered to not to follow the Vedic order, mleechas or yavanas. Perhaps it is similar to calling someone a Gentile.(Judaism) It may have offensive connotations but perhaps it means someone who followed non-Jewish traditions. As I see it, pagan meant non-Abrhamanic religions and non-other recognized religions of the world, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. To call half the population pagan seems odd. I conceived of pagan as meaning to be animistic traditions or spirit worship or Hellenic worship. But some interpret paganism to be any non-Christian religion as well. Under that definition, Jews and Muslims would be pagans. Some extreme Christians would consider pagans to include even Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses (they deny the Holy Trinity)(see wikpedia article on paganism) So I think pagan, as seen in the wikpedia article has a very broad definition. So thus, I would avoid using that term as pagan has a broad definition (from my interpretation to mean Greek and animism) to your interpretation(non-Abrahmanic) to yet another definition(non-Christian)
Polytheism content should probably not be here. If no one comments, I will likely merge such content elsewhere. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:31, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Isn't removing polytheism tantamont to endorsing montheistic POV? I don't really understand why you want to move it or see it an inappropriate here (even if not particularly well handled at the moment); can you expand your comments? SC 04:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed because it clearly violates our NPOV policy. Perhaps it can be rewritten in a way which is NPOV, and then reinserted within a place in the article where it makes sense. As it stands, it is the personal opinion of one of our readers. Some sources are sorely needed.
This paragraph is not very well written. Forgiveable; not everyone is a native speaker of English. I will try to improve it, but it may lose accuracy.
Evertype 09:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Declaration of intention to clean up this article. Please note, Wiki policy allows for deletion of unsourced material at any time. Instead, I'm flagging with citation requests all unsourced text, in the top half of the article, that I believe to be misleading. Those I know to be misleading (i.e. I can cite sources for them being false) will be deleted in one week. Whatever remains unsourced a week later will also be removed. After that I will clean up the second half of the article. Cheers all. Alastair Haines 11:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd also recommend cleaning up these two paragraphs, per my suggestion in the "Shaddai" section below:
and
The first one is correct in establishing an argument for the Holy Spirit's "maleness" in the Greek New Testament, however, does not do the same for the Hebrew.
Also, I'm wondering if Professor R.P. Nettelhorst is being quoted correctly contextually. Is he making an argument for the the Holy Spirit's femaleness or is he just describing the grammatical case for the Hebrew ruach? I've not seen the quote in context, but the fact that he goes on to list other meanings for the word make me think he's doing the latter. As Alastair demonstrated in the "Shaddai" section, female grammatical gender is a system of classification. A female can have "male" breasts and a male can have a "female" spirit . . . this has nothing to do with literal gender. Drumpler 16:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Drumpler, why don't you look at the entire chapter that Appendix 3 was referenced from-- it's right there? Lil'dummy 01:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Because I didn't know that the numbers were referencing that specific quote. Usually when you make a quote, you tend to cite the reference AFTER the quote. I didn't think to click it because the conventional style wasn't followed. Drumpler 04:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I recommend AGAINST merging the Hebrew Scripture section with Judaism since the Hebrew scriptures are used by both Christianity and Judaism-- otherwise it would appear that Christianity in general does not use th Hebrew Scriptures. Lil'dummy 13:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Just reporting that, as promised, with one week's notice, I've deleted several unsourced sentences I know to be false (and can cite references to prove it). The next step, as previously mentioned is to remove unsourced material I know to be true, but tangential to the topic of the article. This will be done in one week, again as mentioned previously. At this point it looks like it will result in the deletion of a couple of sections that will have no material left. I will also be merging what remains and is relevant in The Hebrew scriptures section into the Judaism section -- namely one simile from Isaiah. Alastair Haines 06:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I think you are making a huge mistake by merging the Hebrew Scriptures section into Judaism since both Christianity and Judaism share the Hebrew Scriputes. Do you want to give the impression that Christianity is not founded upon the foundation of the Hebrew Scriptures??? Lil'dummy 01:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it quite absurd that in the section that is titled "The Hebrew Scriptures" someone went back in and placed in the paganized title " God?" For Hebrew words that there are no adequate equivalent in the receptor language (English), the logical thing to do is transliterate the actual word rather than slap in an inferior approximation. Example Giuseppe Verdi means Joseph Green [1], but when talking coherently about Giuseppe Verdi you say "Giuseppe Verdi". If we're going to talk about the Hebrew Scriptures, then let it at least have some key Hebrew in it. Lil'dummy 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The argument most certainly does have merit regarding "Elohim." By context it is understood when "elohim" is referring to the True Living Elohim and not pagan "gods" or angels. As for your criticism of the use of "Yahweh", at least the pronunciation of "Yahweh" or "Yahuweh" is a reasonably good attempt. But "God?" that's nowhere even close to "Elohim". I can understand if the term "Elohim" was taken out of the Christianity section, since most Christians take offense or are downright paranoid of the term "Elohim". Why is it that "Satan" is remarkably close to "HaSatan", but when it comes to the title of the Creator(s) of the universe, that is left up to Teutonic origin? Lil'dummy 03:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The details are right, but wrongly applied. "God" is the English word for "elohim", since "Elohim" came first in Hebrew; "Elohim" is not the Hebrew word for "God" since English came after Hebrew. You even admit that Elohim is literally plural, so that alone would show "God" in the singular tense as being a poor approximation. Since the section is about Hebrew Scriptures, then that particular detail ought to be Hebraic. Lil'dummy 04:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Call the deity that you don't believe in whatever you want, Drumpler, but leave the term "Elohim" where it is perfectly applicable. It is fair and accurate to use the English transliterations of Hebrew terms in the sections where it makes the most sense. The Branch Davidians and Some Messianics use the terms "Yahshua", and "Elohim" so it is justifiable there. And there are in fact Hebrew bibles that do not use the term "God." I would hardly call that an attempt to bully the Sacred Names. Put whatever terms you want in the Christianity Section. I've got no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when you try to impose the terms that aren't used by the groups in question. Lil'dummy 14:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Brilliant. Let's dumb down the article in the section about groups that use the term " Elohim." After all it certainly wouldn't make any sense to use the Wikipedia automatic linking function would it? For the groups that view the Elohim-head as a family unit, the collective echad grouping, is important to their beliefs, therefore is important to put in the article for clarity. Lil'dummy 00:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, with groups that use the term "God" I would agree with you. However with groups that normally use the term "Elohim," when you talk about their beliefs but use the term "God" instead of "Elohim," you are actually obscuring rather than clarifying. Lil'dummy 01:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
That is in essence what I'd be doing if I were to use the term " Elohim" in the Branch/Messianic section. And instead of using the spacious sentence "they address "God" by the Hebrew term ' Elohim'" which would make it a focus, it'd just be the word " Elohim"-- and for all those who don't want to click on the link, you could put "(God)" next to it. Lil'dummy 02:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ann, nice to see you back. Just dropping a note in here to let you know I'm not satisfied with the introduction of "weasel words" into the article. Essentially, these either convey no information, or express an unverifiable negation. Unless you can provide a peer reviewed source that takes a different position to the cited material, you cannot add text to suggest such alternative views exist, or might exist. It's unencyclopedic and speculative to suggest alternatives exist, when there is no evidence of this available. Feel free to go looking for such views, I'd be fascinated to hear of them.
Additionally, references to "the tradition" are redundant in many contexts. The sub-heading makes it clear we are looking at "the Christian 'tradition'". If your intention is to convey that something is the majority and mainstream view, rather than the speculations of fringe groups that may call themselves Christian, there are clearer ways to underline the authority of what is in the text. Christian groups have many well-established differences of opinion -- infant or adult baptism, celebate or married ministers, views on "the millennium" in Revelation, how to read Genesis 1, etc. etc. For 1,500 years the Trinity has been uncontroversial, likewise the divinity of Jesus.
The Athenasian Creed below, in an old translation from the Greek, gives a hint of natural reference to the Holy Spirit with masculine pronoun.
“ | Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords. |
” |
It comes from a web site that's pretty good for researching Christian teaching. Cheers. Alastair Haines 03:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I re-wrote much of the very weasel-wordy content. There is still much that could be done in relation genderless-God-branches of Christianity. Justin Satyr 02:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
An interesting link to an Evangelical Theological Society Press Release.
We need to be a little careful of quoting Pinnock as a representative of Evangelicals. He has withdrawn in private, some of what he has made public. It is probably more accurate and less controversial to name him, without labeling him as belonging to any particular camp. He is an original thinker and has his own article here at Wiki, which describes him much better than a label. Alastair Haines 16:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let me append some personal thoughts here. If John understood the Holy Spirit to be feminine, he could have used a feminine form in exactly the way he uses the masculine form. He did not do this. Even if someone were to draw a long bow and suggest the masculine is used generically in this case, the one thing that is certainly ruled out by the New Testament is a feminine Holy Spirit. However, this argument can really be applied almost as well to John's avoidance of the neuter itself. If he understood the HS to be without gender, it would be quite odd for him to break grammatical agreement and use a masculine form. By doing this, he'd be more likely to introduce one kind of error (perception of a HS with gender), than he would be to correct another (impersonal HS).
It is also worth noting that Jesus could have done exactly the same thing in Hebrew and Aramaic as John did in Greek. The Semitic languages do not distinguish case in demonstrative pronouns, nor gender in the plural. However they do distinguish gender in the singular, which is what John is quoting in Greek. Hence Jesus could have said, zeh ... ruach in Hebrew (or its analogy in Aramaic, which has the same force as the Greek. Grammar requires zot ... ruach -- feminine agreement. If Jesus said this, it would stand out in John's memory, and would have formed the authority for John's unusual Greek. Interestingly, since the Semitic languages only have masc and fem, "personhood" as a rationale for such a pronoun selection by Jesus is much less likely. Also, a feminine HS would be ruled out even more obviously. The more we push down the line of the NT translating Jesus' Aramaic words, the more remote a female HS becomes, and the more likely a masculine HS becomes. Alastair Haines 08:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Some thoughts regarding the logical out-workings of gender upon the Incarnation:
1. If as conventional Christianity asserts that Jesus (Yah'shua) has a dual nature, then God the Father is sharing his earthly wife Mary with Joseph-- in essence polyandry which is never allowed in the rest of scripture.
2. If as conventional Christianity asserts that the Holy Spirit is masculine, then as above, there is polyandry once again for Mary.
3. Even if the the alleged dual nature issue of Jesus (Yahshua) is set aside and Joseph allegedly never has conjugal relations with Mary (as the Roman Catholic Church claims), then in Luke, it is clear that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit were involved in the incarnation of Jesus, and according to convenitonal Christianity, there are 2 male members of the Trinity sharing Mary-- polyandry seems to rear its ugly head again.
4. If the Holy Spirit is viewed to be masculine as is the Father, then you have a Jesus with two daddies-- the same sex marriage advocates are already exploiting this notion-- they already have a T-shirt with the slogan.
5. If the Holy Spirit is viewed to be feminine, as do some Messianic groups and Branch Davadians, then there is no polyandry between the Holy Spirit and God the Father
6. Conventional Christianity will object and say if however there is still an assumption of quasi-sexual union of the Godhead with the mortal Mary and that is combined with position #5, then there is polyamory which is never allowed in the whole of scripture (a possible exception could be the Millenial Kingdom???).
7. Conventional Christianity will also object and say that a feminine Holy Spirit implicates bisexuality for Mary, and implicates lesbianism for one of the members of the trinity.
8.There is apparently an assumption within some areas of Christianity that the incarnation was quasi-sexual (a combining of a human egg with a divine seed/sperm). Yet Mary never viewed herself as a "wife" of God, but rather as a "maid-servant."
9. As seen in Luke chapter 1, if the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaQodesh) is understood as feminine, conceiving Jesus (Yah'shua) in a human or human-like form by Her (the Ruach's) cosmic echad union with the Father (Yahweh), while Mary (Miriam) is viewed as only as a surrogate mother (or literally "conduit" as in at least one [4]Aramaic translation of Luke 1:46) then there are no conflicts. Lil'dummy 12:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
And thank you for illustrating my points (fascinating how the both of you were both on this within 5 hours and then within 32 minutes of each other…;)
Drumpler, discussing in the discussion section how Divine Gender(s) effects major doctrines is relevant. If I were posting what I posted above in the article then, Drumpler, your cry of foul might be legit. What I'm doing is called reasoning and putting two and two together. Fascinating how in the God and gender article there’s a section for Mankind and Humankind [5](seems pretty distant from the main topic), yet in the discussion section, God and gender's effect on the Incarnation is somehow off limits? (Also, let the reader with tons of spare time on his or her hands decide who is more guilty of soapboxing: myself or Drumpler? Oh, and Drumpler, you may cast the first stone, make sure you lift with both legs so you don’t hurt your back.
Regarding the Matthew account, the ISRV (which is translated mostly from the Greek) says “…do not be afraid to take Miryam as your wife, for that which is in her was brought forth from the Set-Apart Spirit.” The Vic Alexander translation from the Aramaic [6] has “He that is born to her is of the Holy Spirit.” “Bringing forth” and “of” sound perfectly suited to feminine action. If you are honest about all the ways the words are used in the "trusted" Greek texts, you will also see that the masculine “fertilization” that you imply is definately not the only way to read it.
Your allegation of divine “sex outside of marriage” (but not sex)— well, I’m speechless on that one…
Incidentally, why do you insist that I’m speaking solely for some particular group? Do you have any evidence of current membership in this supposed particular group? Which Group? What is this, pin the label on the dissident?
Thank you for acknowledging the logical coherence of point 9. However, your criticism of it, does not in fact point out any flaws.
1. Those who hold to the view of feminine gender for the Holy Spirit base it not solely on the noun of Ruach, but rather, that in combination with the predominance of feminine verbs accompanying Ruach in the Tanakh (Old Testament), and, the clarification of what Elohim’s image is in Bereshith/Genesis, and feminine Wisdom in Proverbs 8, and the drash and remez of Nicodemus’ discussion with Yah’shua (Jesus) over what “born again” means, and the fruits of the Ruach (feminine bears fruit), to name a few. Your repeatedly saying about those who hold to the feminine view, that they base it solely on the allegedly non-meaningful gender of the noun “Ruach” is simply setting up a straw-man argument.
2. For the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) the current lack of availability of early Hebrew and/or Aramaic texts older than the Greek texts proves nothing more than the fact that starting with Ignatius, there was a move against the Hebrew-ness of the Gospel. There are far too many Hebraic idioms, wordplays, and acronyms in the New Testament for me to have blind faith in Greek primacy. It’s all a question of: who oppressed who, and who made the power grabs?
3. Your alleged masculine gender of the Spirit is conveyed by your faith in the Greek translation of John and also your outside assumptions brought in to Matthew, but not from the text of Matthew itself, Greek or otherwise. The Female role in gestating and birthing was understood in ancient times and is necessarily feminine. Hence, born of the Spirit and fruits of the Spirit.
Here is an example (not endorsement) of what is being done with the all male trinity viewpoint and how it's being marketed by some [7] Lil'dummy 04:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
It is entirely relevant if there were a section in the article titled "Logical Coherency." Perhaps there should be such a section. That is what I'm proposing. Oh, and by the way, thank you for setting such a reputable example of flawless adherence to Wikipedia policy through all your writings. Lil'dummy 05:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's why I went about the proper procedure and floated it up on the discussion page to see what possibilities it might have. Lil'dummy 05:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Just for fun, I'm going to list some feminine nouns that would suprise some editors at this page. I'm starting at the beginning of Brown Driver Briggs and working forwards. Feminine nouns:
I could come up with masculine nouns for sugar and spice and all things nice, but I really have better things to do. The point is that maybe 30 to 40% of nouns in the Hebrew Bible are feminine. An abstract feminine noun can be made from almost any three letter root. Therefore abstract feminine nouns for destruction, warfare, desolation, abomination, tyranny, prejudice, arrogance either exist or could be created and understood, and they would imply nothing whatsoever about views of women or femininity.
The Hebrew word for spirit was invented before the Bible was written. It was used to describe God's spirit in the Bible, because the writers believed God has a spirit, not because this was thought by its Jewish authors to communicate the existance of a feminine divinity, perish the thought! There is only one God in Judaism, and, in a sense in Christianity too.
The New Testament, on the other hand, has the Spirit as a distinct person of the Trinity, conceiving Jesus in Mary's womb. The Greek neuter for spirit is referred to with ungrammatically masculine pronouns. It is no surprise that 2,000 years of Christian Bible reading scholars have thought of the Spirit as masculine. Alternative views say much more about our early 21st century cultural confusion regarding gender than they do about the intention of the men who wrote the Bible.
Have a nice day y'all. Alastair Haines 19:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Early Syriac Christianity had a maternal viewpoint of the Holy Spirit. At least some of the early believers held to it, in that they held as cannon, the
Gospel according to the Hebrews. Apparently in Christianity, the alleged masculine view has not always been unilateral.
Lil'dummy
04:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Just curious, could you tell me of what "reputable university" or seminary the apostle Peter/Kepha got his degree from. Oh, um well, how about Ya'akov/James? Oh, well, how about Paul, now he had some education-- oh wait, his peers rejected his teachings. *sigh* Lil'dummy 05:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Prediction: I think someone, Drumpler perhaps(?), will decide very soon that all these people with dial-up will have problems with the length of the discussion and the speed of their browsers, and out of the goodness of his heart will archive this discussion, seldom to be seen again. Lil'dummy 05:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Then why don't you propose it be banned from being a source in Wikipedia? Lil'dummy 05:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Qohelet is a feminine noun in Hebrew, best known to Bible readers in translation as the title of the book of Ecclesiastes. Although the noun inflects like other feminine nouns, masculine forms of words relating to it are used in the Hebrew text. At the end of the book we are told that Qohelet was a "wise man". This is just one of many examples that demonstrate that the grammatical class of a noun in Hebrew doesn't tell us much about how the ancient Jews perceived the real gender of the persons denoted by nouns of either class. Pronouns and adjectives tell us more, but even these can be problematic. Alastair Haines 15:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
So, Alastair, rather than go through point by point the discussion while I was gone, do you have a minute to summarize what I've missed? Also, where do things stand with our discussion? Andowney 20:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I see some things in the article that I think need work, but I'll wait for you to respond to my last query before delving in. :) Andowney 20:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi there! Welcome back to the real world. ;) You know I'm researching Song of Songs? :D
Anyway, I'm not sure there's been that much while you've been gone. Just a bit more to and fro with Lil'dummy (Chris), DRumpler (Derek) and myself on the same-old. I've been looking up every word in the Song and entering grammatical information and other stuff into a database. Every so often, the striking contrast between grammatical gender allocation and stereotypical gender associations reminds me of that line of debate at this page.
A friend of mine, who teaches Hebrew at a sister college has pointed me to some interesting literature on current research into gender in Biblical Hebrew. One school of thought allocates three levels of gender to any use of a noun -- morphological (inflection of noun), syntactic (influence on other words) and semantic (gender of referent). One interesting example is the Hebrew for "city" which takes masculine inflections, is referred to by feminine pronouns and adjectives and yet is neuter in reality. There are many examples like this.
But enough! Give us your thoughts. I'm sure there's room for more in the Christianity section, certainly in other sections, and the Bible translation section needs a lot of work, and probably its own article. It'd be great to interact to work on these. Alastair Haines 16:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
In broad terms I agree with you Derek. Christianity is not the only religion where there are disputes about what consitutes orthodoxy. Nor are religions the only areas where there are disputes about who does and who does not belong to a movement.
Consider also, are Taiwan and Tibet part of China? China says "yes", Taiwan says "no", groups in Tibet say "no". Some third parties say "yes", others "no". Political, trade and military issues influence what some third parties say, i.e. they are not objective by virtue of being third parties. Likewise, the answer is either "yes" or "no", in which case, although personally involved, either the Chinese or the Taiwanese or Tibetans are actually correct.
In other words, third parties are not objective by virtue of being third parties. Vice versa, involved parties are not necessarily incorrect by virtue of being involved.
As a general rule, when trying to understand other people's disputes, it is widely held that both points of view are heard, and any matters of fact are independently investigated. Often the facts are actually agreed by two parties in a dispute, however they are explained or evaluated differently.
At Wiki, we should be doing precisely these things, equipping readers with sufficient reliable content that they can make judegements. We need to report objective facts plus disputes about the value or interpretation of those facts. There is a limit ... unpublished views are unreliable and should generally be excluded.
The point I'm getting to is this. We don't have to suggest that all opinions are equally valid, they usually are not! The point is we should not jump up and down pointing out one argument is stronger, or the other is weaker. Nor should we work hard to "balance" things, so the weaker argument is not so disadvantaged. That kind of editing is biased.
On the other hand, saying one argument is a majority view, if verifiable, is worth noting. It doesn't guarantee the view is correct, but it is part of helping readers make a fair assessment.
In the case of gender of the Holy Spirit, the arguments in favour of a feminine Spirit are well known, and weak. Including them makes the case for a masculine Spirit stronger. It shows the translation "He" in John is a deliberate choice, not a dogmatic assertion. When the NRSV translated this way, they did so against deeply held feminist sympathies. They had the chance to consider both points of view, and so should our readers. When views are contradictory, one of them is wrong. Often the best guides to working out which way to go in such cases are the people for whom such issues are life-changing. I can hold bizarre views about brain surgery, but if I'm not responsible for performing operations, my views are not dangerous.
Brain surgeons are both the most reliable guides to brain surgery, AND the ones most likely to be biased -- they will want to justify their mistakes, and boast about their successes. In the same way, Christian theologians are held professionally accountable for their views to a very wide audience. The best will be very cautious in their conclusions, the worst will be very defensive. On the other hand, the best non-Chistian assessments of Christianity can sometimes be helpfully objective, however, the worst are careless or show anti-Christian bias.
I'll stop there. There are some thorny issues, but they are not too complex. It would be a strange day if we were to forbid Muslims from writing about Islam at Wiki, because we believed they would always be biased. The bottom line is we need to evaluate the text, not the writer. Even biased people say unbiased things. :) Alastair Haines 07:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It was painfully obvious that the "a generally held skepticism" was referring to the "Branch Davidians, Some Messianics, and Other Variations." Why? Because that was the title of that section. To think that it was talking about Christianity-in-general would be to completely ignore the title of the section. I did my edit to placate the nit-picking-- apparently it did no good as it upset other grammar inspector(s). I challenge anyone to show me one group or individual who I cited who holds to the feminine Holy Spirit viewpoint but is not skeptical of Greek primacy. Lil'dummy 12:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
LOL, I agree with both of you. I think Derek's reading was reasonable, I also think Chris is right that we can't be slaves to every possible misinterpretation. What consititutes a reasonable misinterpretation? Gosh, I don't know, lol, I suspect our instinctive definition is "if I misread it, anyone could" ... we've got to be more generous than that. ;) Thanks for taking the trouble to show how reasonable your reading was Derek, and thanks Chris for making some concession to it also. I've seen some personal attacks directed at Derek here, it probably comes from long association as friends. I've also seen apologies before ... Anyway, peace everyone! Alastair Haines 09:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Half of this article is about the gender of God. The other half is about gender in general in the Bible. Can we split this into two articles, say Gender of God (currently a redirect) and Gender in Bible translation? -- Alynna 14:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
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A couple of days ago, I deleted a very long, discursive and irrelevant quote from a self-published novelist called Fady Bahig that appeared on this page. What do you know, I turn up today and it has found its way back in thanks to some unregistered user! I've reverted the page to remove the quotation again. If anyone sees very long quotations from this random person sneaking back in, could they please remove them? Wikipedia isn't an advertising forum. Thank you! -- TinaSparkle 15:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I've copyedited, NPOVed and cleaned up large parts of this article, and converted it from essay-style text into encyclopedic text, and edited it down to a manageable length - all as per Wikipedia policy. There is still an awful lot to be done, especially in the "Translating the names of God into English" section, which is far too long, too wordy, too filled with quotes and generally like someone's essay on the subject rather than an encyclopedia article. Interesting though much of this material may be, it is not relevant, and is inappropriate in an encyclopedia article.
There is a great deal still to be done to make this article readable, clear, unbiased and informative. I would encourage everyone to read Wikipedia's guide to writing great articles (click through the Help links) and not pad this piece out with lots of extraneous detail which will confuse and discourage the general reader. -- TinaSparkle 19:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Not all Christians believe in genderless God; in fact, the maleness of God the Father and God the Son are beliefs that have influenced Christianity profoundly throughout its existence, from denounciations of heresies which suggest women should or even have been priests or bishops, historic debates on whether women had souls or were less in the image of God and more like animals, to restrictions on women's role in church, marriage and family life. I think most contemporary lay Christians and some theologians might disagree with current statemnt "In Christianity, God is believed to be intrinsically sexless." SC 04:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the point should be expressed more clearly/prominently on the page that some Christians believe that God is simply beyond gender identification. Genderless is not exactly equivalent to being transcendent beyond gender. All of our languages, even the ancient ones, are limited in their ability to express this, and God generally springs out of any conceptual box that we mortals try to put Him/Her/It/Them/*/ in. It is important to acknowledge that the traditional view of a masculine God strongly shaped church history. It did, and that is a fact. However, while God is not changing, our understanding of Him (for lack of a better term) is.
My opinion, we probably shouldn't make such a big deal out of it, and worry instead about following the chief command issued by God, namely "Love your neighbor as yourself." Sr.Wombat 02:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
And mine just happens to be that believing an omnipotent God having a gender is completely ludicrous, considering that nature would code for such a thing (and the fact that God would almost certainly have no need of either a penis or sperm, unless polytheistic beliefs are accurate, in which case we wouldn't be talking about "God"). I can't imagine why somebody would have to debate something so frivolous. (By the way, I meant no offense to anyone by that statement- it's just offhand common sense.) Robinson0120 08:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Almost every last word of the christianity section is dedicated to the heterodox views of God's gender. That's quite insufficient. Thanatosimii 01:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the text:
The "-iym" ending, in Hebrew the word Elohiym is plural, and not to be confused with the dual endings of mayim (water) and chayyim (Life). These are one substance, but with a certain fluidity demanding terminology expressing this. The water has no one true surface - its form is ever changing face. In "Chayyim", we are dealing with a Hebrew concept of more than one type of life combined. Had this been the only need for an other than singular ending for "Elohiym", the dual "-im", not the true plural "-iym" would have been employed. We cannot attribute to this word any singularity of form in the Hebrew Bible. When not referring to GOD, it is always plural. But no Hebrew saw GOD as alike to HIS creation. - thus the term "ELOHIYM", as reserved for divine reference, though coupled with singular verbs (though not always), is used not to denote one person but more than one displaying perfect unity. The word Elohim is not the only plural noun used for GOD in the Tanakh. When people read this word in the Bible as singular, they are creating a presumptious warping of historical religious nomenclature. The word elohim had an origin that gave it a straightforward plural grammatical form, whatever post-Biblical Israelites have since thought of this word. The Encyclopedia Judaica has this to say, however, in the article "Names of God".
This supports the evidence that this term, thought orthodox enough for such wide usage by Israel, from the beginning, was not unacceptible as originally understood - if it was a matter of eclipsing a Cana'anite heathenism, it was hardly reasonable to begin by adopting a term that, apart from redefinition, was contradictory to their idea of the Unity of GOD.
I really don't understand what the following passage is supposed to mean:
On page "Elohim" there is absolutely nothing about morphological archaism, but there was some linguistically-incorrect information about "Eloah" being feminine in form which I have removed (see Talk:Elohim). The page Elohim is in desperate need of a major overhaul in any case. AnonMoos 02:32, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
We have thus far been unable to determine the gender of the Greek pronouns used in speaking of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. If you have a Greek or Interlinear New Testament and speak Greek, help us out by checking this out and reporting back on what pronouns are used. As can be seen above, the grammatical structure in John 14, a passage which speaks extensively of the Holy Spirit, has apparently left us unable to discover this piece of information, which is somewhat important ot this debate.
The above is accurate but the article itself is flagrantly incorrect and self-contradictory. Autos is of the masculine gender, (auta would be feminine and auto would be neuter.) In 14:17 the neuter form of autos is used (auto) while in 14:26 the masculine form of ekeinos is used. Yet, clearly these refer to the same entity as the advocate and the holy spirit are placed in apposition to each in 14:26. This once again demonstrates the fallacy of equating grammatical gender with sexual gender. It should also not read neutral gender where the correct term is neuter.
I have removed Isaiah 66:12 and Hosea 11:1-3 from the article. The author claimed that these were references to God as a mother figure. This is not the case (although God is compared to a mother in Isaiah 63:13, the remaining quote). Isaiah 66:12 must be seen in context. Begin reading at v. 7 and it will become clear that the "her" referred to is not God, but Zion (Jerusalem in v. 10 - same thing). The Hosea reference is fairly vague. It clearly refers to God as a parent, but not necessarily a mother. kpearce 17:51 21 Jun 2003 (UTC)
C. S. Lewis made a fascinating argument about this that is worth reporting. He said something to the effect that "If God is female, She is so profoundly and completely female that the most feminine of us must be male by comparison. And if God is male, He is so profoundly and completely male that the most masculine of us must be female by comparison." User:142.177.77.69
I was very suprised that there was no discussion of God and gender in Hinduism as all Hindus worship Shakti or Devi who is viewed as God the Divine Mother. So, I have added a section. User:Raj2004
Some pagans also believe in gender neutral, androgynous, and "third sex" deities.
Hindu's are not pagan / polytheist, see God, pantheism, panentheism, etc... Also Shiva isn't 1/2 female. Also, pagan is often a slur (particularly outside of the modern, secular west), polytheist would be correct (except it isn't ;) Sam [ Spade] 13:05, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Sam and COGDEN, Cogden is partially correct. Hindus believe that nature of the Ultimate Reality, i.e., God or Shiva has really no form. But form is needed for humans to concentrate as Saguna Brahman. One of the form symbolzing that God is everything, is Ardhanarishvara, half-male and half-female, representing all genders of all living things. See source, http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/M04.html additionally, see, http://www.dlshq.org/download/lordsiva.htm As for Ganesh, Ganesh is never presented in that manner. As a practical point, Hinduism is too broad a term and is really four divisions. 1) Vaishnvaism 2) Shaivism 3) Shaktism and 4) Smarta see below web site. Ganesh, by 99% of Hindus is not the Supreme God, who is typically in Hinduism is Vishnu or Shiva. Ganesh is worshipped for material success just as Christians veneraate saints. Even most Smartas pray to either Vishnu or Shiva. As a practical point, Hindus are mostly liberal in theology. However, if pressed to identity, 75-80% of Hindus are Vaishnvaites. So this theme about being a polytheistic religion is garbage. See http://www.gitamrta.org/, misconceptions about Hinduism In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna, avatar of Vishnu states that He alone is God. Those who worship Devas, commonly potrayed as gods in Western media are of limited understanding. http://www.harekrishna.com/~ara/col/books/BG/tsem1.html; The Gita itself preaches strong Vaishnavite monotheism.
And for Cogden to understand the nature of what Hinduism is, and not the proproganda what is presented, please see http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/M02.html. I believe that you are Mormon and many do not consider Mormonism to be part of Christianity. I withold judgment on that as I am not familiar with Mormonism, as you are not familiar with Hinduism. Also see the commentary on wikpedia's Vishnu sahasranama; it shows that Vishnu and Shiva are one and the same. Thank you.
That is again a POV. he reason that Hinduism is perceived as polytheistic because most Hindus follow the Smarta school, which follows Advaita philosophy. All forms of God are merely different aspects of Brahman, the impersonal Absolute which can never be defined. This school is an inclusive monotheistic school unlike an exclusive monotheistic school. (please see the monotheism article.
Thank you.
Raj2004 02:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem. Yes, perhaps pagan has a negative connotation. Hindus have also a term for people who they considered to not to follow the Vedic order, mleechas or yavanas. Perhaps it is similar to calling someone a Gentile.(Judaism) It may have offensive connotations but perhaps it means someone who followed non-Jewish traditions. As I see it, pagan meant non-Abrhamanic religions and non-other recognized religions of the world, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. To call half the population pagan seems odd. I conceived of pagan as meaning to be animistic traditions or spirit worship or Hellenic worship. But some interpret paganism to be any non-Christian religion as well. Under that definition, Jews and Muslims would be pagans. Some extreme Christians would consider pagans to include even Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses (they deny the Holy Trinity)(see wikpedia article on paganism) So I think pagan, as seen in the wikpedia article has a very broad definition. So thus, I would avoid using that term as pagan has a broad definition (from my interpretation to mean Greek and animism) to your interpretation(non-Abrahmanic) to yet another definition(non-Christian)
Polytheism content should probably not be here. If no one comments, I will likely merge such content elsewhere. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 13:31, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Isn't removing polytheism tantamont to endorsing montheistic POV? I don't really understand why you want to move it or see it an inappropriate here (even if not particularly well handled at the moment); can you expand your comments? SC 04:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The following paragraph was removed because it clearly violates our NPOV policy. Perhaps it can be rewritten in a way which is NPOV, and then reinserted within a place in the article where it makes sense. As it stands, it is the personal opinion of one of our readers. Some sources are sorely needed.
This paragraph is not very well written. Forgiveable; not everyone is a native speaker of English. I will try to improve it, but it may lose accuracy.
Evertype 09:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Declaration of intention to clean up this article. Please note, Wiki policy allows for deletion of unsourced material at any time. Instead, I'm flagging with citation requests all unsourced text, in the top half of the article, that I believe to be misleading. Those I know to be misleading (i.e. I can cite sources for them being false) will be deleted in one week. Whatever remains unsourced a week later will also be removed. After that I will clean up the second half of the article. Cheers all. Alastair Haines 11:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd also recommend cleaning up these two paragraphs, per my suggestion in the "Shaddai" section below:
and
The first one is correct in establishing an argument for the Holy Spirit's "maleness" in the Greek New Testament, however, does not do the same for the Hebrew.
Also, I'm wondering if Professor R.P. Nettelhorst is being quoted correctly contextually. Is he making an argument for the the Holy Spirit's femaleness or is he just describing the grammatical case for the Hebrew ruach? I've not seen the quote in context, but the fact that he goes on to list other meanings for the word make me think he's doing the latter. As Alastair demonstrated in the "Shaddai" section, female grammatical gender is a system of classification. A female can have "male" breasts and a male can have a "female" spirit . . . this has nothing to do with literal gender. Drumpler 16:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Drumpler, why don't you look at the entire chapter that Appendix 3 was referenced from-- it's right there? Lil'dummy 01:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Because I didn't know that the numbers were referencing that specific quote. Usually when you make a quote, you tend to cite the reference AFTER the quote. I didn't think to click it because the conventional style wasn't followed. Drumpler 04:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I recommend AGAINST merging the Hebrew Scripture section with Judaism since the Hebrew scriptures are used by both Christianity and Judaism-- otherwise it would appear that Christianity in general does not use th Hebrew Scriptures. Lil'dummy 13:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Just reporting that, as promised, with one week's notice, I've deleted several unsourced sentences I know to be false (and can cite references to prove it). The next step, as previously mentioned is to remove unsourced material I know to be true, but tangential to the topic of the article. This will be done in one week, again as mentioned previously. At this point it looks like it will result in the deletion of a couple of sections that will have no material left. I will also be merging what remains and is relevant in The Hebrew scriptures section into the Judaism section -- namely one simile from Isaiah. Alastair Haines 06:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I think you are making a huge mistake by merging the Hebrew Scriptures section into Judaism since both Christianity and Judaism share the Hebrew Scriputes. Do you want to give the impression that Christianity is not founded upon the foundation of the Hebrew Scriptures??? Lil'dummy 01:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it quite absurd that in the section that is titled "The Hebrew Scriptures" someone went back in and placed in the paganized title " God?" For Hebrew words that there are no adequate equivalent in the receptor language (English), the logical thing to do is transliterate the actual word rather than slap in an inferior approximation. Example Giuseppe Verdi means Joseph Green [1], but when talking coherently about Giuseppe Verdi you say "Giuseppe Verdi". If we're going to talk about the Hebrew Scriptures, then let it at least have some key Hebrew in it. Lil'dummy 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The argument most certainly does have merit regarding "Elohim." By context it is understood when "elohim" is referring to the True Living Elohim and not pagan "gods" or angels. As for your criticism of the use of "Yahweh", at least the pronunciation of "Yahweh" or "Yahuweh" is a reasonably good attempt. But "God?" that's nowhere even close to "Elohim". I can understand if the term "Elohim" was taken out of the Christianity section, since most Christians take offense or are downright paranoid of the term "Elohim". Why is it that "Satan" is remarkably close to "HaSatan", but when it comes to the title of the Creator(s) of the universe, that is left up to Teutonic origin? Lil'dummy 03:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The details are right, but wrongly applied. "God" is the English word for "elohim", since "Elohim" came first in Hebrew; "Elohim" is not the Hebrew word for "God" since English came after Hebrew. You even admit that Elohim is literally plural, so that alone would show "God" in the singular tense as being a poor approximation. Since the section is about Hebrew Scriptures, then that particular detail ought to be Hebraic. Lil'dummy 04:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Call the deity that you don't believe in whatever you want, Drumpler, but leave the term "Elohim" where it is perfectly applicable. It is fair and accurate to use the English transliterations of Hebrew terms in the sections where it makes the most sense. The Branch Davidians and Some Messianics use the terms "Yahshua", and "Elohim" so it is justifiable there. And there are in fact Hebrew bibles that do not use the term "God." I would hardly call that an attempt to bully the Sacred Names. Put whatever terms you want in the Christianity Section. I've got no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when you try to impose the terms that aren't used by the groups in question. Lil'dummy 14:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Brilliant. Let's dumb down the article in the section about groups that use the term " Elohim." After all it certainly wouldn't make any sense to use the Wikipedia automatic linking function would it? For the groups that view the Elohim-head as a family unit, the collective echad grouping, is important to their beliefs, therefore is important to put in the article for clarity. Lil'dummy 00:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, with groups that use the term "God" I would agree with you. However with groups that normally use the term "Elohim," when you talk about their beliefs but use the term "God" instead of "Elohim," you are actually obscuring rather than clarifying. Lil'dummy 01:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
That is in essence what I'd be doing if I were to use the term " Elohim" in the Branch/Messianic section. And instead of using the spacious sentence "they address "God" by the Hebrew term ' Elohim'" which would make it a focus, it'd just be the word " Elohim"-- and for all those who don't want to click on the link, you could put "(God)" next to it. Lil'dummy 02:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ann, nice to see you back. Just dropping a note in here to let you know I'm not satisfied with the introduction of "weasel words" into the article. Essentially, these either convey no information, or express an unverifiable negation. Unless you can provide a peer reviewed source that takes a different position to the cited material, you cannot add text to suggest such alternative views exist, or might exist. It's unencyclopedic and speculative to suggest alternatives exist, when there is no evidence of this available. Feel free to go looking for such views, I'd be fascinated to hear of them.
Additionally, references to "the tradition" are redundant in many contexts. The sub-heading makes it clear we are looking at "the Christian 'tradition'". If your intention is to convey that something is the majority and mainstream view, rather than the speculations of fringe groups that may call themselves Christian, there are clearer ways to underline the authority of what is in the text. Christian groups have many well-established differences of opinion -- infant or adult baptism, celebate or married ministers, views on "the millennium" in Revelation, how to read Genesis 1, etc. etc. For 1,500 years the Trinity has been uncontroversial, likewise the divinity of Jesus.
The Athenasian Creed below, in an old translation from the Greek, gives a hint of natural reference to the Holy Spirit with masculine pronoun.
“ | Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords. |
” |
It comes from a web site that's pretty good for researching Christian teaching. Cheers. Alastair Haines 03:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I re-wrote much of the very weasel-wordy content. There is still much that could be done in relation genderless-God-branches of Christianity. Justin Satyr 02:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
An interesting link to an Evangelical Theological Society Press Release.
We need to be a little careful of quoting Pinnock as a representative of Evangelicals. He has withdrawn in private, some of what he has made public. It is probably more accurate and less controversial to name him, without labeling him as belonging to any particular camp. He is an original thinker and has his own article here at Wiki, which describes him much better than a label. Alastair Haines 16:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let me append some personal thoughts here. If John understood the Holy Spirit to be feminine, he could have used a feminine form in exactly the way he uses the masculine form. He did not do this. Even if someone were to draw a long bow and suggest the masculine is used generically in this case, the one thing that is certainly ruled out by the New Testament is a feminine Holy Spirit. However, this argument can really be applied almost as well to John's avoidance of the neuter itself. If he understood the HS to be without gender, it would be quite odd for him to break grammatical agreement and use a masculine form. By doing this, he'd be more likely to introduce one kind of error (perception of a HS with gender), than he would be to correct another (impersonal HS).
It is also worth noting that Jesus could have done exactly the same thing in Hebrew and Aramaic as John did in Greek. The Semitic languages do not distinguish case in demonstrative pronouns, nor gender in the plural. However they do distinguish gender in the singular, which is what John is quoting in Greek. Hence Jesus could have said, zeh ... ruach in Hebrew (or its analogy in Aramaic, which has the same force as the Greek. Grammar requires zot ... ruach -- feminine agreement. If Jesus said this, it would stand out in John's memory, and would have formed the authority for John's unusual Greek. Interestingly, since the Semitic languages only have masc and fem, "personhood" as a rationale for such a pronoun selection by Jesus is much less likely. Also, a feminine HS would be ruled out even more obviously. The more we push down the line of the NT translating Jesus' Aramaic words, the more remote a female HS becomes, and the more likely a masculine HS becomes. Alastair Haines 08:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Some thoughts regarding the logical out-workings of gender upon the Incarnation:
1. If as conventional Christianity asserts that Jesus (Yah'shua) has a dual nature, then God the Father is sharing his earthly wife Mary with Joseph-- in essence polyandry which is never allowed in the rest of scripture.
2. If as conventional Christianity asserts that the Holy Spirit is masculine, then as above, there is polyandry once again for Mary.
3. Even if the the alleged dual nature issue of Jesus (Yahshua) is set aside and Joseph allegedly never has conjugal relations with Mary (as the Roman Catholic Church claims), then in Luke, it is clear that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit were involved in the incarnation of Jesus, and according to convenitonal Christianity, there are 2 male members of the Trinity sharing Mary-- polyandry seems to rear its ugly head again.
4. If the Holy Spirit is viewed to be masculine as is the Father, then you have a Jesus with two daddies-- the same sex marriage advocates are already exploiting this notion-- they already have a T-shirt with the slogan.
5. If the Holy Spirit is viewed to be feminine, as do some Messianic groups and Branch Davadians, then there is no polyandry between the Holy Spirit and God the Father
6. Conventional Christianity will object and say if however there is still an assumption of quasi-sexual union of the Godhead with the mortal Mary and that is combined with position #5, then there is polyamory which is never allowed in the whole of scripture (a possible exception could be the Millenial Kingdom???).
7. Conventional Christianity will also object and say that a feminine Holy Spirit implicates bisexuality for Mary, and implicates lesbianism for one of the members of the trinity.
8.There is apparently an assumption within some areas of Christianity that the incarnation was quasi-sexual (a combining of a human egg with a divine seed/sperm). Yet Mary never viewed herself as a "wife" of God, but rather as a "maid-servant."
9. As seen in Luke chapter 1, if the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaQodesh) is understood as feminine, conceiving Jesus (Yah'shua) in a human or human-like form by Her (the Ruach's) cosmic echad union with the Father (Yahweh), while Mary (Miriam) is viewed as only as a surrogate mother (or literally "conduit" as in at least one [4]Aramaic translation of Luke 1:46) then there are no conflicts. Lil'dummy 12:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
And thank you for illustrating my points (fascinating how the both of you were both on this within 5 hours and then within 32 minutes of each other…;)
Drumpler, discussing in the discussion section how Divine Gender(s) effects major doctrines is relevant. If I were posting what I posted above in the article then, Drumpler, your cry of foul might be legit. What I'm doing is called reasoning and putting two and two together. Fascinating how in the God and gender article there’s a section for Mankind and Humankind [5](seems pretty distant from the main topic), yet in the discussion section, God and gender's effect on the Incarnation is somehow off limits? (Also, let the reader with tons of spare time on his or her hands decide who is more guilty of soapboxing: myself or Drumpler? Oh, and Drumpler, you may cast the first stone, make sure you lift with both legs so you don’t hurt your back.
Regarding the Matthew account, the ISRV (which is translated mostly from the Greek) says “…do not be afraid to take Miryam as your wife, for that which is in her was brought forth from the Set-Apart Spirit.” The Vic Alexander translation from the Aramaic [6] has “He that is born to her is of the Holy Spirit.” “Bringing forth” and “of” sound perfectly suited to feminine action. If you are honest about all the ways the words are used in the "trusted" Greek texts, you will also see that the masculine “fertilization” that you imply is definately not the only way to read it.
Your allegation of divine “sex outside of marriage” (but not sex)— well, I’m speechless on that one…
Incidentally, why do you insist that I’m speaking solely for some particular group? Do you have any evidence of current membership in this supposed particular group? Which Group? What is this, pin the label on the dissident?
Thank you for acknowledging the logical coherence of point 9. However, your criticism of it, does not in fact point out any flaws.
1. Those who hold to the view of feminine gender for the Holy Spirit base it not solely on the noun of Ruach, but rather, that in combination with the predominance of feminine verbs accompanying Ruach in the Tanakh (Old Testament), and, the clarification of what Elohim’s image is in Bereshith/Genesis, and feminine Wisdom in Proverbs 8, and the drash and remez of Nicodemus’ discussion with Yah’shua (Jesus) over what “born again” means, and the fruits of the Ruach (feminine bears fruit), to name a few. Your repeatedly saying about those who hold to the feminine view, that they base it solely on the allegedly non-meaningful gender of the noun “Ruach” is simply setting up a straw-man argument.
2. For the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) the current lack of availability of early Hebrew and/or Aramaic texts older than the Greek texts proves nothing more than the fact that starting with Ignatius, there was a move against the Hebrew-ness of the Gospel. There are far too many Hebraic idioms, wordplays, and acronyms in the New Testament for me to have blind faith in Greek primacy. It’s all a question of: who oppressed who, and who made the power grabs?
3. Your alleged masculine gender of the Spirit is conveyed by your faith in the Greek translation of John and also your outside assumptions brought in to Matthew, but not from the text of Matthew itself, Greek or otherwise. The Female role in gestating and birthing was understood in ancient times and is necessarily feminine. Hence, born of the Spirit and fruits of the Spirit.
Here is an example (not endorsement) of what is being done with the all male trinity viewpoint and how it's being marketed by some [7] Lil'dummy 04:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
It is entirely relevant if there were a section in the article titled "Logical Coherency." Perhaps there should be such a section. That is what I'm proposing. Oh, and by the way, thank you for setting such a reputable example of flawless adherence to Wikipedia policy through all your writings. Lil'dummy 05:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's why I went about the proper procedure and floated it up on the discussion page to see what possibilities it might have. Lil'dummy 05:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Just for fun, I'm going to list some feminine nouns that would suprise some editors at this page. I'm starting at the beginning of Brown Driver Briggs and working forwards. Feminine nouns:
I could come up with masculine nouns for sugar and spice and all things nice, but I really have better things to do. The point is that maybe 30 to 40% of nouns in the Hebrew Bible are feminine. An abstract feminine noun can be made from almost any three letter root. Therefore abstract feminine nouns for destruction, warfare, desolation, abomination, tyranny, prejudice, arrogance either exist or could be created and understood, and they would imply nothing whatsoever about views of women or femininity.
The Hebrew word for spirit was invented before the Bible was written. It was used to describe God's spirit in the Bible, because the writers believed God has a spirit, not because this was thought by its Jewish authors to communicate the existance of a feminine divinity, perish the thought! There is only one God in Judaism, and, in a sense in Christianity too.
The New Testament, on the other hand, has the Spirit as a distinct person of the Trinity, conceiving Jesus in Mary's womb. The Greek neuter for spirit is referred to with ungrammatically masculine pronouns. It is no surprise that 2,000 years of Christian Bible reading scholars have thought of the Spirit as masculine. Alternative views say much more about our early 21st century cultural confusion regarding gender than they do about the intention of the men who wrote the Bible.
Have a nice day y'all. Alastair Haines 19:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Early Syriac Christianity had a maternal viewpoint of the Holy Spirit. At least some of the early believers held to it, in that they held as cannon, the
Gospel according to the Hebrews. Apparently in Christianity, the alleged masculine view has not always been unilateral.
Lil'dummy
04:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Just curious, could you tell me of what "reputable university" or seminary the apostle Peter/Kepha got his degree from. Oh, um well, how about Ya'akov/James? Oh, well, how about Paul, now he had some education-- oh wait, his peers rejected his teachings. *sigh* Lil'dummy 05:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Prediction: I think someone, Drumpler perhaps(?), will decide very soon that all these people with dial-up will have problems with the length of the discussion and the speed of their browsers, and out of the goodness of his heart will archive this discussion, seldom to be seen again. Lil'dummy 05:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Then why don't you propose it be banned from being a source in Wikipedia? Lil'dummy 05:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Qohelet is a feminine noun in Hebrew, best known to Bible readers in translation as the title of the book of Ecclesiastes. Although the noun inflects like other feminine nouns, masculine forms of words relating to it are used in the Hebrew text. At the end of the book we are told that Qohelet was a "wise man". This is just one of many examples that demonstrate that the grammatical class of a noun in Hebrew doesn't tell us much about how the ancient Jews perceived the real gender of the persons denoted by nouns of either class. Pronouns and adjectives tell us more, but even these can be problematic. Alastair Haines 15:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
So, Alastair, rather than go through point by point the discussion while I was gone, do you have a minute to summarize what I've missed? Also, where do things stand with our discussion? Andowney 20:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I see some things in the article that I think need work, but I'll wait for you to respond to my last query before delving in. :) Andowney 20:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi there! Welcome back to the real world. ;) You know I'm researching Song of Songs? :D
Anyway, I'm not sure there's been that much while you've been gone. Just a bit more to and fro with Lil'dummy (Chris), DRumpler (Derek) and myself on the same-old. I've been looking up every word in the Song and entering grammatical information and other stuff into a database. Every so often, the striking contrast between grammatical gender allocation and stereotypical gender associations reminds me of that line of debate at this page.
A friend of mine, who teaches Hebrew at a sister college has pointed me to some interesting literature on current research into gender in Biblical Hebrew. One school of thought allocates three levels of gender to any use of a noun -- morphological (inflection of noun), syntactic (influence on other words) and semantic (gender of referent). One interesting example is the Hebrew for "city" which takes masculine inflections, is referred to by feminine pronouns and adjectives and yet is neuter in reality. There are many examples like this.
But enough! Give us your thoughts. I'm sure there's room for more in the Christianity section, certainly in other sections, and the Bible translation section needs a lot of work, and probably its own article. It'd be great to interact to work on these. Alastair Haines 16:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
In broad terms I agree with you Derek. Christianity is not the only religion where there are disputes about what consitutes orthodoxy. Nor are religions the only areas where there are disputes about who does and who does not belong to a movement.
Consider also, are Taiwan and Tibet part of China? China says "yes", Taiwan says "no", groups in Tibet say "no". Some third parties say "yes", others "no". Political, trade and military issues influence what some third parties say, i.e. they are not objective by virtue of being third parties. Likewise, the answer is either "yes" or "no", in which case, although personally involved, either the Chinese or the Taiwanese or Tibetans are actually correct.
In other words, third parties are not objective by virtue of being third parties. Vice versa, involved parties are not necessarily incorrect by virtue of being involved.
As a general rule, when trying to understand other people's disputes, it is widely held that both points of view are heard, and any matters of fact are independently investigated. Often the facts are actually agreed by two parties in a dispute, however they are explained or evaluated differently.
At Wiki, we should be doing precisely these things, equipping readers with sufficient reliable content that they can make judegements. We need to report objective facts plus disputes about the value or interpretation of those facts. There is a limit ... unpublished views are unreliable and should generally be excluded.
The point I'm getting to is this. We don't have to suggest that all opinions are equally valid, they usually are not! The point is we should not jump up and down pointing out one argument is stronger, or the other is weaker. Nor should we work hard to "balance" things, so the weaker argument is not so disadvantaged. That kind of editing is biased.
On the other hand, saying one argument is a majority view, if verifiable, is worth noting. It doesn't guarantee the view is correct, but it is part of helping readers make a fair assessment.
In the case of gender of the Holy Spirit, the arguments in favour of a feminine Spirit are well known, and weak. Including them makes the case for a masculine Spirit stronger. It shows the translation "He" in John is a deliberate choice, not a dogmatic assertion. When the NRSV translated this way, they did so against deeply held feminist sympathies. They had the chance to consider both points of view, and so should our readers. When views are contradictory, one of them is wrong. Often the best guides to working out which way to go in such cases are the people for whom such issues are life-changing. I can hold bizarre views about brain surgery, but if I'm not responsible for performing operations, my views are not dangerous.
Brain surgeons are both the most reliable guides to brain surgery, AND the ones most likely to be biased -- they will want to justify their mistakes, and boast about their successes. In the same way, Christian theologians are held professionally accountable for their views to a very wide audience. The best will be very cautious in their conclusions, the worst will be very defensive. On the other hand, the best non-Chistian assessments of Christianity can sometimes be helpfully objective, however, the worst are careless or show anti-Christian bias.
I'll stop there. There are some thorny issues, but they are not too complex. It would be a strange day if we were to forbid Muslims from writing about Islam at Wiki, because we believed they would always be biased. The bottom line is we need to evaluate the text, not the writer. Even biased people say unbiased things. :) Alastair Haines 07:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It was painfully obvious that the "a generally held skepticism" was referring to the "Branch Davidians, Some Messianics, and Other Variations." Why? Because that was the title of that section. To think that it was talking about Christianity-in-general would be to completely ignore the title of the section. I did my edit to placate the nit-picking-- apparently it did no good as it upset other grammar inspector(s). I challenge anyone to show me one group or individual who I cited who holds to the feminine Holy Spirit viewpoint but is not skeptical of Greek primacy. Lil'dummy 12:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
LOL, I agree with both of you. I think Derek's reading was reasonable, I also think Chris is right that we can't be slaves to every possible misinterpretation. What consititutes a reasonable misinterpretation? Gosh, I don't know, lol, I suspect our instinctive definition is "if I misread it, anyone could" ... we've got to be more generous than that. ;) Thanks for taking the trouble to show how reasonable your reading was Derek, and thanks Chris for making some concession to it also. I've seen some personal attacks directed at Derek here, it probably comes from long association as friends. I've also seen apologies before ... Anyway, peace everyone! Alastair Haines 09:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Half of this article is about the gender of God. The other half is about gender in general in the Bible. Can we split this into two articles, say Gender of God (currently a redirect) and Gender in Bible translation? -- Alynna 14:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)