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This article doesn't cohere very well and there are obvious inaccuracies and unreliable citations. I suggest subdividing the article by century, with 19th, 20th, and 21st century arrangement. With an historical preface that takes readers from entries such as the Cathars, the Bosnian Church, and pre/early modern esoteric movements to the 19th century. Currently, the only mention prior to the 19th century is William Blake, who could be added to such a preface.
These sections would provide an historical context for the modern entries in the Gnosticism section and refer to those articles. I do not know the value of the hodge-podge list of Gnostic groups under the Modern Gnostic revivals section. Ideally, such a list would link to individual articles. The mysticism section does not seem to fit in this article, though the individual cited could be mentioned in the appropriate century section.
Thoughts?
Metagignosko ( talk) 05:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I am going to write more articles on this subject, they will have also references and links to books that can be found at Amazon.com.
Skysurfer
Here's the link to it, now named ' (the most appropriate title)
I agree it's impractical to include all self-identifying gnostic groups in this article. It seems unfair though to cite sources on gnosticism like Eric Voegelin, David Icke, or references to The Matrix without including individuals and groups who have a far more articulated, explicitly gnostic viewpoint, and make a valuable contribution to its understanding, and therefore merit more attention. I obtained a wealth of information from this site on modern Gnosticism and think it should be included on this page:
The Theater And Its Gnostic Double. [1]
There seems to be a dearth of information on modern Gnosticism. This article is already quite clipped and could be improved by including more viewpoints.
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Section entitled 'Modern Gnostic Mysticism' does not really detail mysticism. If it concerns beliefs and scholarly analysis and interpretation of older Gnostic document. Can we do a 'Revival of Gnosticism' or 'Gnostic Schools/Systems Originating from Scholarly Research' instead? Mysticism has been defined as "a religion based on mystical communion with an ultimate reality" or "Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God". Shouldn't we discuss Mysticism proper and not hypothesis or scholarly analysis/interpretation or dogma?
In the article on Scientology, look under "Scientology and other religions", it says:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)(/ref)"I know only a little about Scientology or Gnosticism but it does seem to me that they have some things in common. Is there a problem with mentioning this in the article? Maybe only as one person's opinion? Steve Dufour 05:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I am against including groups that are merely characterized as either gnostic or a form of gnosticism. While such characterizations may have some genuine utility on occasion, they are more often of a polemical nature, and/or make use of a polemical characterization of gnosticism. This would also expand the scope of this article beyond the scope of gnosticism in modern times, or indeed any coherence. Metagignosko ( talk) 03:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
The attached piece on the Gnostics is clearly written as a subtle hit piece; perhaps by a Catholic.
Is Wikipedia a Cathlolic organization? What difference does it make that the Pope, head of the church of ROMA does not agree with them or one of their philosohpies? (e.g. The philosophy that presents our relationship with G-d is personal not requiring a church.)
While the discomfort this gives a huge CHURCH organization such as his is obvious, it's astonishing that supposedly neutral site ;) as Wiki would essentially lend themselves, however subtley, to the Church of Roma.
Anyone researching this should be sure to check out the Christian Gnostics, specifically, one sect called the Cathars. See Google books for "Gold of the Gods" for an interestsing account of just how Christian the church of ROMA was when it came to those groups like the Cathars of France that were labeled as 'heretics' by Pope 'Innocent'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.55.164.23 ( talk) 20:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the fuzzy section on Voegelin is far too long. His analysis is fuzzy and far from relevant since it bunches everything detestable (acc2 him) into one heap and then he, like an illusionist slips the detestability label of "gnosticism" from his sleeve, on that dung heap and screams "Voilá!" like a madman. Besides he has a whole article on his own, so his thinking could be rationalized down to what is relevant for modern "gnosticism". ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 21:37, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
And "totalitarian" applied onto religious anarchists... ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 21:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I read a dissertation that had a well researched section on Voegelin's use of "gnosticism" as a metaphor that he later abandoned. I will try find it again and rewrite this section. Metagignosko ( talk) 05:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV, a cabal of editors have made the article into a walled garden. I agree with Metagignosko that it is a bad idea to include groups which are merely characterized as "gnostic" by others, and Voegelin's article is rightly limited. However, this article is extremely biased to a particular minority school of what makes modern Gnosticism, namely the French, British and American occultist groups that evolved from Blavatsky and then Doinel. This article completely neglects the Gnostic group of Samael Aun Weor, whose membership dwarfs the Doinel groups, neglects Sylvia Browne and her Gnostic church, it neglects SUMMUM from Utah. If I were to wager a guess, this article is primarily authored by a member of the Ecclesia Gnostica, a group mentioned in the article, as it seems to conform to their official narrative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimonster007 ( talk • contribs) 22:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
You are incorrect about a "bias" keeping out late 20th or 21st century organizations that identify as gnostic. As you really should have noticed before calling it biased, the article is structured as an historical account. It has not been expanded beyond the mid twentieth century. Unless anachronism is a bias in history, there is no bias. The article can be updated through the end of the 20th century, however, to account for all of the self-identified gnostic groups arising after the cultural forces stirring around the Da Vinci Code novel and film would be impractical in this format. Before it was structured historically, it was a disorganized list of individuals and an external link list.
The history of Victor Rodriguez (aka Samael Aun Weor) is worth including as a continuation of the sex magic line. He actually distanced his teaching from historical gnosticism as he taught a "new gnosis," which is the teaching of the "Arcanum AZF" (sex magic without male ejaculation. He wrote his first book El Matrimonio Perfecto ('the Perfect Matrimony') in 1950. Sylvia Browne as a church founder is a 21st century phenomenon. Metagignosko ( talk) 00:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
This article should also discuss the so-called "Assembly of Good Christians" and their website www.cathar.net. Although, at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I imagine that their absence from this article may be intentional on their part, despite the fact that their PR arm seems to pop up on every website or blog critical of Gnosticism. 162.90.144.23 ( talk)
1) This article sucks. It is undercited, oblique, vague, incomplete and very sloppy by wikipedia standards. 2) That said, I would think editors should consider including stuff on the connections scholars such as Alain Besançon trace between Gnosis and modern ideology, starting with everyone's favorite guy Hegel, and going down to Leninism and 'em guys. Think about it, it's interesting stuff. Dahn ( talk) 17:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Greetings! There's been recently a section about "The Church of St Mary & St John" added by an IP editor [1], and later got restored by another IP editor [2] and user Hegel Eagle [3]. The Hegel Eagle account seems to have been created only three days after I reverted the very additions by IP 86.167.112.236, and so far he has only four edits on his account, all in Gnosticism in modern times [4]'.
The source for the first paragraph is the organization's very own website, and therefore doesn't meet the notability criteria. The second paragraph is sourced by a book called The Secrets of the Serpent Bloodline, authored by the very founder of the organization. Wikipedia is not the venue for promoting one's book, and what doesn't meet notability, Wikipedia shouldn't include either. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya ( talk) 12:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
@Jayaguru-Shishya: This section was not added by the author of the book. The site and book were cited as sources for the information provided, not for promotional purposes. There is also an Altar book that has not been cited, which would have been if promotion were the goal. The author doesn't need Wikipedia to promote her work. She has been invited to speak as a guest on R.O.A.M. Radio 11-24-2013 and The Psychic Connection. Both of those are non-affiliated third parties that approached Tau Tia L Douglass of their own accord after she created a video to announce her book publication. This Church deserves mention as a Gnostic organization in modern times. -- Elabeth ( talk) 05:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm looking into this further for more independent sources. There is an article that was published in The Chorley Guardian on May 6, 2012, but due to the age, it has been put into the newspaper archives at their physical location and not stored online on other than the Church's own site. I'm linking it here just to show the clipping: http://churchsmsj.org/html/May2012.htm -- Elabeth ( talk) 21:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Well now we know this organization exists. But I don't think having this info warrants giving an entire section/two paragraphs of text to the org, especially with wild claims like "The Church of St Mary & St John ... are based on ancient teachings passed through a hereditary tradition" and "... also claims lineages through Mary Magdalene and John The Baptist, from a surviving bloodline tradition which predates the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as well as Eastern religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism." And the second paragraph is a little too enthusiastic; it should be written in a more neutral and understandable manner. If we're going to mention it in the article at all. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 05:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
According to fr.wikipédia, l'Eglise gnostique apostolique ceased activity by the end-70ies [with souce].
Nuremberg / BAVARIA - Ángel.García2001 84.138.71.192 ( talk) 18:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
The popular culture section on this page is very vague and seems to add nothing to the article. "These pop culture stories/games/etc. contain gnostic references" adds nothing of value to the page content itself. I propose deletion if substantial notability cannot be shown. Khalfani Khaldun 17:01, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
References
This article was nominated for deletion on 23 March 2009. The result of the discussion was Procedural keep. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
This article doesn't cohere very well and there are obvious inaccuracies and unreliable citations. I suggest subdividing the article by century, with 19th, 20th, and 21st century arrangement. With an historical preface that takes readers from entries such as the Cathars, the Bosnian Church, and pre/early modern esoteric movements to the 19th century. Currently, the only mention prior to the 19th century is William Blake, who could be added to such a preface.
These sections would provide an historical context for the modern entries in the Gnosticism section and refer to those articles. I do not know the value of the hodge-podge list of Gnostic groups under the Modern Gnostic revivals section. Ideally, such a list would link to individual articles. The mysticism section does not seem to fit in this article, though the individual cited could be mentioned in the appropriate century section.
Thoughts?
Metagignosko ( talk) 05:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I am going to write more articles on this subject, they will have also references and links to books that can be found at Amazon.com.
Skysurfer
Here's the link to it, now named ' (the most appropriate title)
I agree it's impractical to include all self-identifying gnostic groups in this article. It seems unfair though to cite sources on gnosticism like Eric Voegelin, David Icke, or references to The Matrix without including individuals and groups who have a far more articulated, explicitly gnostic viewpoint, and make a valuable contribution to its understanding, and therefore merit more attention. I obtained a wealth of information from this site on modern Gnosticism and think it should be included on this page:
The Theater And Its Gnostic Double. [1]
There seems to be a dearth of information on modern Gnosticism. This article is already quite clipped and could be improved by including more viewpoints.
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Section entitled 'Modern Gnostic Mysticism' does not really detail mysticism. If it concerns beliefs and scholarly analysis and interpretation of older Gnostic document. Can we do a 'Revival of Gnosticism' or 'Gnostic Schools/Systems Originating from Scholarly Research' instead? Mysticism has been defined as "a religion based on mystical communion with an ultimate reality" or "Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God". Shouldn't we discuss Mysticism proper and not hypothesis or scholarly analysis/interpretation or dogma?
In the article on Scientology, look under "Scientology and other religions", it says:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)(/ref)"I know only a little about Scientology or Gnosticism but it does seem to me that they have some things in common. Is there a problem with mentioning this in the article? Maybe only as one person's opinion? Steve Dufour 05:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I am against including groups that are merely characterized as either gnostic or a form of gnosticism. While such characterizations may have some genuine utility on occasion, they are more often of a polemical nature, and/or make use of a polemical characterization of gnosticism. This would also expand the scope of this article beyond the scope of gnosticism in modern times, or indeed any coherence. Metagignosko ( talk) 03:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
The attached piece on the Gnostics is clearly written as a subtle hit piece; perhaps by a Catholic.
Is Wikipedia a Cathlolic organization? What difference does it make that the Pope, head of the church of ROMA does not agree with them or one of their philosohpies? (e.g. The philosophy that presents our relationship with G-d is personal not requiring a church.)
While the discomfort this gives a huge CHURCH organization such as his is obvious, it's astonishing that supposedly neutral site ;) as Wiki would essentially lend themselves, however subtley, to the Church of Roma.
Anyone researching this should be sure to check out the Christian Gnostics, specifically, one sect called the Cathars. See Google books for "Gold of the Gods" for an interestsing account of just how Christian the church of ROMA was when it came to those groups like the Cathars of France that were labeled as 'heretics' by Pope 'Innocent'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.55.164.23 ( talk) 20:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I think the fuzzy section on Voegelin is far too long. His analysis is fuzzy and far from relevant since it bunches everything detestable (acc2 him) into one heap and then he, like an illusionist slips the detestability label of "gnosticism" from his sleeve, on that dung heap and screams "Voilá!" like a madman. Besides he has a whole article on his own, so his thinking could be rationalized down to what is relevant for modern "gnosticism". ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 21:37, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
And "totalitarian" applied onto religious anarchists... ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 21:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I read a dissertation that had a well researched section on Voegelin's use of "gnosticism" as a metaphor that he later abandoned. I will try find it again and rewrite this section. Metagignosko ( talk) 05:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV, a cabal of editors have made the article into a walled garden. I agree with Metagignosko that it is a bad idea to include groups which are merely characterized as "gnostic" by others, and Voegelin's article is rightly limited. However, this article is extremely biased to a particular minority school of what makes modern Gnosticism, namely the French, British and American occultist groups that evolved from Blavatsky and then Doinel. This article completely neglects the Gnostic group of Samael Aun Weor, whose membership dwarfs the Doinel groups, neglects Sylvia Browne and her Gnostic church, it neglects SUMMUM from Utah. If I were to wager a guess, this article is primarily authored by a member of the Ecclesia Gnostica, a group mentioned in the article, as it seems to conform to their official narrative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimonster007 ( talk • contribs) 22:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
You are incorrect about a "bias" keeping out late 20th or 21st century organizations that identify as gnostic. As you really should have noticed before calling it biased, the article is structured as an historical account. It has not been expanded beyond the mid twentieth century. Unless anachronism is a bias in history, there is no bias. The article can be updated through the end of the 20th century, however, to account for all of the self-identified gnostic groups arising after the cultural forces stirring around the Da Vinci Code novel and film would be impractical in this format. Before it was structured historically, it was a disorganized list of individuals and an external link list.
The history of Victor Rodriguez (aka Samael Aun Weor) is worth including as a continuation of the sex magic line. He actually distanced his teaching from historical gnosticism as he taught a "new gnosis," which is the teaching of the "Arcanum AZF" (sex magic without male ejaculation. He wrote his first book El Matrimonio Perfecto ('the Perfect Matrimony') in 1950. Sylvia Browne as a church founder is a 21st century phenomenon. Metagignosko ( talk) 00:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
This article should also discuss the so-called "Assembly of Good Christians" and their website www.cathar.net. Although, at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I imagine that their absence from this article may be intentional on their part, despite the fact that their PR arm seems to pop up on every website or blog critical of Gnosticism. 162.90.144.23 ( talk)
1) This article sucks. It is undercited, oblique, vague, incomplete and very sloppy by wikipedia standards. 2) That said, I would think editors should consider including stuff on the connections scholars such as Alain Besançon trace between Gnosis and modern ideology, starting with everyone's favorite guy Hegel, and going down to Leninism and 'em guys. Think about it, it's interesting stuff. Dahn ( talk) 17:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Greetings! There's been recently a section about "The Church of St Mary & St John" added by an IP editor [1], and later got restored by another IP editor [2] and user Hegel Eagle [3]. The Hegel Eagle account seems to have been created only three days after I reverted the very additions by IP 86.167.112.236, and so far he has only four edits on his account, all in Gnosticism in modern times [4]'.
The source for the first paragraph is the organization's very own website, and therefore doesn't meet the notability criteria. The second paragraph is sourced by a book called The Secrets of the Serpent Bloodline, authored by the very founder of the organization. Wikipedia is not the venue for promoting one's book, and what doesn't meet notability, Wikipedia shouldn't include either. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya ( talk) 12:58, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
@Jayaguru-Shishya: This section was not added by the author of the book. The site and book were cited as sources for the information provided, not for promotional purposes. There is also an Altar book that has not been cited, which would have been if promotion were the goal. The author doesn't need Wikipedia to promote her work. She has been invited to speak as a guest on R.O.A.M. Radio 11-24-2013 and The Psychic Connection. Both of those are non-affiliated third parties that approached Tau Tia L Douglass of their own accord after she created a video to announce her book publication. This Church deserves mention as a Gnostic organization in modern times. -- Elabeth ( talk) 05:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm looking into this further for more independent sources. There is an article that was published in The Chorley Guardian on May 6, 2012, but due to the age, it has been put into the newspaper archives at their physical location and not stored online on other than the Church's own site. I'm linking it here just to show the clipping: http://churchsmsj.org/html/May2012.htm -- Elabeth ( talk) 21:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Well now we know this organization exists. But I don't think having this info warrants giving an entire section/two paragraphs of text to the org, especially with wild claims like "The Church of St Mary & St John ... are based on ancient teachings passed through a hereditary tradition" and "... also claims lineages through Mary Magdalene and John The Baptist, from a surviving bloodline tradition which predates the Abrahamic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as well as Eastern religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism." And the second paragraph is a little too enthusiastic; it should be written in a more neutral and understandable manner. If we're going to mention it in the article at all. — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 05:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
According to fr.wikipédia, l'Eglise gnostique apostolique ceased activity by the end-70ies [with souce].
Nuremberg / BAVARIA - Ángel.García2001 84.138.71.192 ( talk) 18:54, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
The popular culture section on this page is very vague and seems to add nothing to the article. "These pop culture stories/games/etc. contain gnostic references" adds nothing of value to the page content itself. I propose deletion if substantial notability cannot be shown. Khalfani Khaldun 17:01, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
References