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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
We've discussed adding this lawsuit to the article in the past, but objection was made on the basis that the source (Examiner.com) was a non-edited newsblog. Well, here is another source, an edited publication, by a real journalist. So what do you say? I say that we should include it under the "Legal cases / Advertising controversy" section. I find it relevant and worthy of a single sentence with this source. SageRad ( talk) 12:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Different lawsuit, but Monsanto did lose... BBC Lfstevens ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
The lawsuit is also covered in Alternet which is citing an article in The Ecologist. Is this notable enough? I think so. SageRad ( talk) 02:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Zad
68
03:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)There's been back and forth about the second paragraph. Originally, it said "While glyphosate and formulations such as Roundup have been approved by regulatory bodies worldwide and are widely used, concerns about their effects on humans and the environment persist," and an unregistered editor changed "worldwide" to "in various countries" here, giving the reason ""Worldwide" terminology suggests worldwide when glyphosate is actually not approved worldwide and is increasingly being restricted." Then, user Jytdog reverted this here giving reason ""have been", not 'Is" - and a few small countries is not a revolution" To me, this use of "have been" sounds misleading, and lawyerly in the sense of perhaps semantically correct but giving the wrong impression about reality. I could also say that DDT has been approved by US regulatory agencies, and if i then say nothing after that, it would give the impression that it's still approved. That is what i mean by misleading. I find the language "a few small countries is not a revolution" to be revealing about his/her reasoning, too, speaking to agenda, or a "side". I saw this revert and this reasoning, and i did what i thought was sensible, to cut the language on "have been approved" altogether, since it's being used in a misleading way anyway, and not needed here, and reduce it here to "While glyphosate and formulations such as Roundup are widely used, concerns about their effects on humans and the environment persist." Then, user Mark Marathon reverted by edit here back to the original, with reason "Pertinent and referenced" -- so i'd like to get an understanding of what's pertinent about that, and why the language is needed there, or rather what's the best language we can have there? I like simply stating that, while it's widely used, concerns exist. Simple and done. The regulatory history and current state is described in the article, including recent country-wide bans on the chemical. I'd like to eliminate lawyerly language and simplify to the bare facts. SageRad ( talk) 10:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Glyphosate which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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Editor Jytdog recently deleted three additions to the article by Johann Zaller, in this diff, with the reason being given as "please use secondary sources, not primary sources. Thanks". Now, i know that secondary sources are preferable to primary sources, but primary sources are not disallowed, as stated in the reliable sources guideline. There may have been some synthesis or otherwise disallowed commentary by the editor who added these texts, but that would be another matter. I don't believe that the fact that a source is a primary source is a reason solely in itself to delete content. I post this note to bring this up to the original poster, and others here, and to note that this deletion occurred. We can't have people making up their own rules and acting single-handedly in such ways, if we are to cooperate to refine the article. We could seek out secondary sourcing for these aspects of glyphosate effects on the environment, and on plant symbiotic microbes, but being primary does not outlaw a source solely in itself. I did recently add text on the effects of glyphosate on the endophytic bacterial population of soybean plants, using a primary source, in this diff3. I would be troubled and challenge the action if that were to be deleted solely because the source was a primary research report. SageRad ( talk) 14:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Do you think it is unimportant to note in a single sentence under "Effects on plant health" that the topic of the article has an effect on plant microbiomes, with a citation? Do you think it's not relevant enough to include this sentence in a long article about a chemical that's used on plants widely and has a section called "Effects on plant health"? I think it's very relevant. I *will* look for secondary sources on effects on plant health, and i *will* integrate whatever i find there to reflect secondary source level thinking on the topic, as is the preferred method, but in the interim, do you really think it's justifiable to delete that sentence from the article solely because it's a finding from a primary source? I did *no* synthesis and made *no* leaps of logic from the primary source, as are prohibited in the guidelines. I simply stated the major finding of the source in one brief sentence. SageRad ( talk) 16:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Additions by Johann_Zaller were once again deleted, in this diff, this time by editor Alexbrn. Perhaps Alexbrn was not aware of this talk page discussion, but now should be made aware. Being a primary source, in itself, is not sufficient reason to delete another editor's addition, and this holds especially true for recent papers which cannot be expected to be included in review level articles. It comes down to editorial decision making as to what is important. I find plenty of other primary sources in the article, including many that suggest the relative safety of glyphosate. Are all primary sources to be removed? I do not think so. WP:RS prefers secondary sources, but explicitly allows primary sources, with the caution that care must be taken to evaluate weight and validity by other means than review articles if it is done. I did add back one of Zaller's additions, which i think is highly relevant in the passage on earthworms and other soil biota. I also do like his proposed change of the section heading to "Soil biota" which was reverted as well. I'd propose making this change. I also added the Jaworski (1972) paper in the section on soil microbes, as there was a primary-sourced paper that purports to show less inibitory effect on milk bacteria in the section on soil biota, which to me is not so relevant, and therefore an addition on greater sensitivity by an actual soil bacterium seems relevant to me. Both are primary sources. Jaworski (1972) is a seminal paper on glyphosate and cited by 297 other papers. SageRad ( talk) 11:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
The addition was once again deleted by Roxy_the_dog this diff. Just stop. Stop the madness. Stop the complete distortion of policy. You are not justified in doing this. State your case explicitly. I will bring this to a hearing. You are in violation of basic policy and guidelines and norms and good editing practices. You NEED to discuss this on the talk page. You cannot simply single-handedly delete things without working with other editors. Talk page is for talk. Your revert gives reason "Remopve primary sourced material. This is not the place to change sourcing policy." Note that this is NOT changing sourcing policy. I am following sourcing policy to the letter of the law. YOU are in violation and YOU are changing sourcing policy. Please read this discussion and take it seriously. I gave fair warning in my re-add of the Gaupp-Berghausen paper, as i gave my reason as "Added Gaupp-Berghausen paper. Do NOT delete just because primary source. Discuss on TP." Therefore, i noted that there was a discussion on the talk page and Roxy the Dog should have been aware that there is an active discussion on this topic here. Therefore, i call his/her edit heavy-handed. SageRad ( talk) 11:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
No, absolutely not, Alexbrn, and i find it insulting that you would ask. The answer is no, anyway. Absolutely not. I am one identity here, and only one. Do you think i need to be associated with a study in order to find it worth including in an article in a paragraph related to its topic, to give more breadth to the survey of the human knowledge base? Why do you ask? What gives you ANY indication that it would be me? Can you see how it can be insulting to be asked that? SageRad ( talk) 20:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
No, we are NOT expected to wait until it's confirmed by secondary sources. You cannot change policies by repeating what you wish them to be. We have, apparently, a dispute on interpretation of guidelines. You're stating that as a pretty absolute rule, whereas it is not. It's a good rule of thumb to use secondary sources when available, and it's also wise to use some caution in citing new research, but it is NOT prohibited and your continuing to assert this as the rule is not acceptable. It may be time to call a public hearing to get other input into this matter, and to frame the question very carefully to bound it to the guideline interpretation specifically. I will do this soon. SageRad ( talk) 14:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.
In regard to the above few entries:
SageRad ( talk) 16:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Editors have been deleting passages with the sole reason given that the sources are primary. When pressed, they have stated that primary sources are not allowed according to RS standards. You cannot change what was done and said. You can change what you say now, but can't rewrite what was done. The other concerns you mention above are just that, other concerns, to be discussed in themselves. I am going to make one final call-out to the users who appeared to think that Wikipedia policy prohibits use of primary sources as policy. Users
Jytdog,
Kingofaces43,
Alexbrn,
Roxy_the_dog, i am going to assert that policy allows the use of primary sources, with some caveats and conditions, such as no specialized interpretation and no synthesis of course, and with a preference for the use of secondary sources. I am going to give this 24 hours, and if any of you still claim that primary sources are not allowed here as a matter of policy, then i am going to frame a discussion on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'd appreciate if you acknowledge the distinction. (User Alexbrn already has, in the above dialogue, and Kingofaces43 just did so, i think, if i read them correctly.) If you're silent then i have no way of knowing if you acknowledge this, and i will need to bring about a discussion on DRN anyway, to establish policy precedent in interpretation of the guidelines. Especially in light of Roxy the dog's reason for deleting it being "Remopve primary sourced material. This is not the place to change sourcing policy." -- this clearly implies that Roxy is stating that policy is against primary sources, and that must be challenged to establish precedent.
SageRad (
talk)
16:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Glyphosate which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
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Where belongs content like this Supermarkets and garden centres ban Roundup weedkiller suspected of causing cancer. This appears to be a European afford, but the legal section of the article doesn't exactly covers that kind of removal. prokaryotes ( talk) 15:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Why is the IARC classification even mentioned? Only the monograph has been published, the data hasn't been released in full. It's also come under heavy criticism for being misleading as it refers to doses which applicators are exposed to (not consumers) and the 2A classification doesn't mean much (plenty of compounds we ingest are 2A - formaldehyde in fruit, caffeine, ibuprofen, etc). Furthermore, 3 other UN agencies are convinced it does not pose a human health risk. You can find× a series of statements from experts worldwide about the IARC classification here and comments from a pesticide expert here. There is also a GLP post here with sources enclosed. 205.193.114.245 ( talk) 17:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I am opening this space for dialogue on two recent edits that removed claims.
Jytdog here removed a section that was sourced to a recent primary article.
I here removed claims that were sourced to very old review articles.
SageRad ( talk) 15:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Yobol deleted my addition. I added back my addition, with the two old ones, which are favorable to glyphosate. All the review articles are valuable, and the work that editors did to summarize them is valuable. We need more recent review articles. SageRad ( talk) 03:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Last night, some editing regarding toxicity resulted from crossed messages and misunderstandings, much of which was on my part. For example, when Yobol deleted a section saying that glyphosate wasn't mentioned in the source, i re-added the Shinasi review article here and two other review articles that had been in the passage previously, though Yobol had been referring to another statement and source. Sorry about my misunderstanding here.
Yobol is also correct in that some statements and sources are used in two sections, in the same way.
I think that speaks to an underlying problem with the toxicity section as a whole, and i'd like to ask for ideas on how we can clean it up. The problem as i see it, is that toxicity is divided into three sections: glyphosate itself, glyphosate-based formulations, and additives toxicity. This makes it rather complicated when a source speaks to both glyphosate and glyphosate-based formulations. Do we include it in both section? Should we do away with the sections altogether and have a mass of information on toxicity of glyphosate and formulations? Or perhaps just get rid of the section on additives toxicity and combine that information into the formulation toxicity section? On e more problem: at the same heading level, we have a section called "Government and Organization Positions on Glyphosate Toxicity" which is right below the glyphosate toxicity section. Is that right or should that be a subheading under glyphosate toxicity? And to top it all off, in each section, we have subsections on human, soil, and other animals and ecological toxicity.
So, it's a mess, and perhaps that's ok because the reality is in fact a mess, too. But maybe we can clean it up somewhat, simplify the structure. Suggestions?
SageRad ( talk) 12:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I recently introduced "Glyphosate can be lethal to non-human mammals." and a similar sentence about fish and aquatic animals. These were almost immediately reverted. I have a feeling this could very quickly develop into an edit war so I am trying to avoid any more ongoing drama here. Should such statements be included? I believe they should. The problem with simply giving an LD50 dose and then summarising by saying that it has low toxicity as that it conveniently covers up that 50% of the animals died. Shock - the substance can be lethal! In my opinion, a clear statement of the fact that the substance can be lethal should be included.DrChrissy (talk) 13:28, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
My university credential will not allow me to access this journal, oddly. I'd like to read this review paper to update the section on persistence of glyphosate in water. This is a 2014 review and the current statement is based on a very old source.
I also do see this primary research paper that reports half life of 47 to 315 days in seawater in various conditions. This is much longer than the persistence states in the article for pond water. Does anyone have access to the review article and wish to update this section with current state of the science? SageRad ( talk) 14:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog and Yobol are both stating that we should not be using primary sources in this article but instead using reviews. Which PAGs are you using for these statements please?DrChrissy (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
We've discussed adding this lawsuit to the article in the past, but objection was made on the basis that the source (Examiner.com) was a non-edited newsblog. Well, here is another source, an edited publication, by a real journalist. So what do you say? I say that we should include it under the "Legal cases / Advertising controversy" section. I find it relevant and worthy of a single sentence with this source. SageRad ( talk) 12:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Different lawsuit, but Monsanto did lose... BBC Lfstevens ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
The lawsuit is also covered in Alternet which is citing an article in The Ecologist. Is this notable enough? I think so. SageRad ( talk) 02:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Zad
68
03:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)There's been back and forth about the second paragraph. Originally, it said "While glyphosate and formulations such as Roundup have been approved by regulatory bodies worldwide and are widely used, concerns about their effects on humans and the environment persist," and an unregistered editor changed "worldwide" to "in various countries" here, giving the reason ""Worldwide" terminology suggests worldwide when glyphosate is actually not approved worldwide and is increasingly being restricted." Then, user Jytdog reverted this here giving reason ""have been", not 'Is" - and a few small countries is not a revolution" To me, this use of "have been" sounds misleading, and lawyerly in the sense of perhaps semantically correct but giving the wrong impression about reality. I could also say that DDT has been approved by US regulatory agencies, and if i then say nothing after that, it would give the impression that it's still approved. That is what i mean by misleading. I find the language "a few small countries is not a revolution" to be revealing about his/her reasoning, too, speaking to agenda, or a "side". I saw this revert and this reasoning, and i did what i thought was sensible, to cut the language on "have been approved" altogether, since it's being used in a misleading way anyway, and not needed here, and reduce it here to "While glyphosate and formulations such as Roundup are widely used, concerns about their effects on humans and the environment persist." Then, user Mark Marathon reverted by edit here back to the original, with reason "Pertinent and referenced" -- so i'd like to get an understanding of what's pertinent about that, and why the language is needed there, or rather what's the best language we can have there? I like simply stating that, while it's widely used, concerns exist. Simple and done. The regulatory history and current state is described in the article, including recent country-wide bans on the chemical. I'd like to eliminate lawyerly language and simplify to the bare facts. SageRad ( talk) 10:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Glyphosate which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
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on the local blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 17:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Editor Jytdog recently deleted three additions to the article by Johann Zaller, in this diff, with the reason being given as "please use secondary sources, not primary sources. Thanks". Now, i know that secondary sources are preferable to primary sources, but primary sources are not disallowed, as stated in the reliable sources guideline. There may have been some synthesis or otherwise disallowed commentary by the editor who added these texts, but that would be another matter. I don't believe that the fact that a source is a primary source is a reason solely in itself to delete content. I post this note to bring this up to the original poster, and others here, and to note that this deletion occurred. We can't have people making up their own rules and acting single-handedly in such ways, if we are to cooperate to refine the article. We could seek out secondary sourcing for these aspects of glyphosate effects on the environment, and on plant symbiotic microbes, but being primary does not outlaw a source solely in itself. I did recently add text on the effects of glyphosate on the endophytic bacterial population of soybean plants, using a primary source, in this diff3. I would be troubled and challenge the action if that were to be deleted solely because the source was a primary research report. SageRad ( talk) 14:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Do you think it is unimportant to note in a single sentence under "Effects on plant health" that the topic of the article has an effect on plant microbiomes, with a citation? Do you think it's not relevant enough to include this sentence in a long article about a chemical that's used on plants widely and has a section called "Effects on plant health"? I think it's very relevant. I *will* look for secondary sources on effects on plant health, and i *will* integrate whatever i find there to reflect secondary source level thinking on the topic, as is the preferred method, but in the interim, do you really think it's justifiable to delete that sentence from the article solely because it's a finding from a primary source? I did *no* synthesis and made *no* leaps of logic from the primary source, as are prohibited in the guidelines. I simply stated the major finding of the source in one brief sentence. SageRad ( talk) 16:39, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Additions by Johann_Zaller were once again deleted, in this diff, this time by editor Alexbrn. Perhaps Alexbrn was not aware of this talk page discussion, but now should be made aware. Being a primary source, in itself, is not sufficient reason to delete another editor's addition, and this holds especially true for recent papers which cannot be expected to be included in review level articles. It comes down to editorial decision making as to what is important. I find plenty of other primary sources in the article, including many that suggest the relative safety of glyphosate. Are all primary sources to be removed? I do not think so. WP:RS prefers secondary sources, but explicitly allows primary sources, with the caution that care must be taken to evaluate weight and validity by other means than review articles if it is done. I did add back one of Zaller's additions, which i think is highly relevant in the passage on earthworms and other soil biota. I also do like his proposed change of the section heading to "Soil biota" which was reverted as well. I'd propose making this change. I also added the Jaworski (1972) paper in the section on soil microbes, as there was a primary-sourced paper that purports to show less inibitory effect on milk bacteria in the section on soil biota, which to me is not so relevant, and therefore an addition on greater sensitivity by an actual soil bacterium seems relevant to me. Both are primary sources. Jaworski (1972) is a seminal paper on glyphosate and cited by 297 other papers. SageRad ( talk) 11:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
The addition was once again deleted by Roxy_the_dog this diff. Just stop. Stop the madness. Stop the complete distortion of policy. You are not justified in doing this. State your case explicitly. I will bring this to a hearing. You are in violation of basic policy and guidelines and norms and good editing practices. You NEED to discuss this on the talk page. You cannot simply single-handedly delete things without working with other editors. Talk page is for talk. Your revert gives reason "Remopve primary sourced material. This is not the place to change sourcing policy." Note that this is NOT changing sourcing policy. I am following sourcing policy to the letter of the law. YOU are in violation and YOU are changing sourcing policy. Please read this discussion and take it seriously. I gave fair warning in my re-add of the Gaupp-Berghausen paper, as i gave my reason as "Added Gaupp-Berghausen paper. Do NOT delete just because primary source. Discuss on TP." Therefore, i noted that there was a discussion on the talk page and Roxy the Dog should have been aware that there is an active discussion on this topic here. Therefore, i call his/her edit heavy-handed. SageRad ( talk) 11:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
No, absolutely not, Alexbrn, and i find it insulting that you would ask. The answer is no, anyway. Absolutely not. I am one identity here, and only one. Do you think i need to be associated with a study in order to find it worth including in an article in a paragraph related to its topic, to give more breadth to the survey of the human knowledge base? Why do you ask? What gives you ANY indication that it would be me? Can you see how it can be insulting to be asked that? SageRad ( talk) 20:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
No, we are NOT expected to wait until it's confirmed by secondary sources. You cannot change policies by repeating what you wish them to be. We have, apparently, a dispute on interpretation of guidelines. You're stating that as a pretty absolute rule, whereas it is not. It's a good rule of thumb to use secondary sources when available, and it's also wise to use some caution in citing new research, but it is NOT prohibited and your continuing to assert this as the rule is not acceptable. It may be time to call a public hearing to get other input into this matter, and to frame the question very carefully to bound it to the guideline interpretation specifically. I will do this soon. SageRad ( talk) 14:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[4] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.
In regard to the above few entries:
SageRad ( talk) 16:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Editors have been deleting passages with the sole reason given that the sources are primary. When pressed, they have stated that primary sources are not allowed according to RS standards. You cannot change what was done and said. You can change what you say now, but can't rewrite what was done. The other concerns you mention above are just that, other concerns, to be discussed in themselves. I am going to make one final call-out to the users who appeared to think that Wikipedia policy prohibits use of primary sources as policy. Users
Jytdog,
Kingofaces43,
Alexbrn,
Roxy_the_dog, i am going to assert that policy allows the use of primary sources, with some caveats and conditions, such as no specialized interpretation and no synthesis of course, and with a preference for the use of secondary sources. I am going to give this 24 hours, and if any of you still claim that primary sources are not allowed here as a matter of policy, then i am going to frame a discussion on the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'd appreciate if you acknowledge the distinction. (User Alexbrn already has, in the above dialogue, and Kingofaces43 just did so, i think, if i read them correctly.) If you're silent then i have no way of knowing if you acknowledge this, and i will need to bring about a discussion on DRN anyway, to establish policy precedent in interpretation of the guidelines. Especially in light of Roxy the dog's reason for deleting it being "Remopve primary sourced material. This is not the place to change sourcing policy." -- this clearly implies that Roxy is stating that policy is against primary sources, and that must be challenged to establish precedent.
SageRad (
talk)
16:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected links on Glyphosate which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Wikipedia. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\bmarketsandmarkets\.com\b
on the local blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:19, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Where belongs content like this Supermarkets and garden centres ban Roundup weedkiller suspected of causing cancer. This appears to be a European afford, but the legal section of the article doesn't exactly covers that kind of removal. prokaryotes ( talk) 15:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Why is the IARC classification even mentioned? Only the monograph has been published, the data hasn't been released in full. It's also come under heavy criticism for being misleading as it refers to doses which applicators are exposed to (not consumers) and the 2A classification doesn't mean much (plenty of compounds we ingest are 2A - formaldehyde in fruit, caffeine, ibuprofen, etc). Furthermore, 3 other UN agencies are convinced it does not pose a human health risk. You can find× a series of statements from experts worldwide about the IARC classification here and comments from a pesticide expert here. There is also a GLP post here with sources enclosed. 205.193.114.245 ( talk) 17:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I am opening this space for dialogue on two recent edits that removed claims.
Jytdog here removed a section that was sourced to a recent primary article.
I here removed claims that were sourced to very old review articles.
SageRad ( talk) 15:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Yobol deleted my addition. I added back my addition, with the two old ones, which are favorable to glyphosate. All the review articles are valuable, and the work that editors did to summarize them is valuable. We need more recent review articles. SageRad ( talk) 03:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Last night, some editing regarding toxicity resulted from crossed messages and misunderstandings, much of which was on my part. For example, when Yobol deleted a section saying that glyphosate wasn't mentioned in the source, i re-added the Shinasi review article here and two other review articles that had been in the passage previously, though Yobol had been referring to another statement and source. Sorry about my misunderstanding here.
Yobol is also correct in that some statements and sources are used in two sections, in the same way.
I think that speaks to an underlying problem with the toxicity section as a whole, and i'd like to ask for ideas on how we can clean it up. The problem as i see it, is that toxicity is divided into three sections: glyphosate itself, glyphosate-based formulations, and additives toxicity. This makes it rather complicated when a source speaks to both glyphosate and glyphosate-based formulations. Do we include it in both section? Should we do away with the sections altogether and have a mass of information on toxicity of glyphosate and formulations? Or perhaps just get rid of the section on additives toxicity and combine that information into the formulation toxicity section? On e more problem: at the same heading level, we have a section called "Government and Organization Positions on Glyphosate Toxicity" which is right below the glyphosate toxicity section. Is that right or should that be a subheading under glyphosate toxicity? And to top it all off, in each section, we have subsections on human, soil, and other animals and ecological toxicity.
So, it's a mess, and perhaps that's ok because the reality is in fact a mess, too. But maybe we can clean it up somewhat, simplify the structure. Suggestions?
SageRad ( talk) 12:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I recently introduced "Glyphosate can be lethal to non-human mammals." and a similar sentence about fish and aquatic animals. These were almost immediately reverted. I have a feeling this could very quickly develop into an edit war so I am trying to avoid any more ongoing drama here. Should such statements be included? I believe they should. The problem with simply giving an LD50 dose and then summarising by saying that it has low toxicity as that it conveniently covers up that 50% of the animals died. Shock - the substance can be lethal! In my opinion, a clear statement of the fact that the substance can be lethal should be included.DrChrissy (talk) 13:28, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
My university credential will not allow me to access this journal, oddly. I'd like to read this review paper to update the section on persistence of glyphosate in water. This is a 2014 review and the current statement is based on a very old source.
I also do see this primary research paper that reports half life of 47 to 315 days in seawater in various conditions. This is much longer than the persistence states in the article for pond water. Does anyone have access to the review article and wish to update this section with current state of the science? SageRad ( talk) 14:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog and Yobol are both stating that we should not be using primary sources in this article but instead using reviews. Which PAGs are you using for these statements please?DrChrissy (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)