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As per the request, and after contacting the admin responsible for the protection, I am unprotecting this article. I can quite understand the reasons which lead the admin to protect this article. Currently, my own opinion is that, given the current state of the article, pretty much any edits are preferable to leaving it as it is. This is not to condone the multiple actions of many different editors which have reduced a featured article to this state: I must remind all concerned that disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is a blockable offense independantly of the three revert rule, as has been confirmed by the Arbitration Committee on several occasions.
For the majority of editors, who are editing in good faith, I invite you to consider that the best way of putting your point is to " write for the enemy" rather than engaging in trench warfare. Wikipedia is neither an election meeting nor a saloon bar; our aim is to be useful to our readers. Physchim62 (talk) 03:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Global Warming Dmcdevit method:
We'll be trying some of Dmcdevit's thoughts out on Global Warming.
We're unprotecting now. Could folks please keep an eye on the page, and block any Edit warriors on sight? (Note that you can block for edit warring even when there has been no strict 3RRvio, but do be careful of what you call an edit war, nevertheless.)
Hopefully no-one will actually be editwarring, but since we're unprotecting a contentious page, you never really know for sure.
-- Kim Bruning 03:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, who just decided it is a good idea to archive discussions which are only an hour old? why is this being done? It seems like it was done by people who are uninvolved in this article. Thanks. -- Sm8900 04:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
(Note: Restoring this talk section from archive, as it was active as of today. Thanks. -- Sm8900 04:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC))
Mediation has got us nowhere, all the discussion has changed little, and edit wars are continual. I believe that the only way to settle this conflict would be through arbitration. What are other people's views on this? Would others support moving the dispute to ArbCom? All other steps seem to have been taken. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 00:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the strangest edit I have seen today! LOL. -- Blue Tie 01:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the problem with this article isn't one that the Wikipedia model can resolve. The Wikipedia model tries to be fair to everyone, and when there's a split in users' opinions that they aren't willing to budge on, the Wikipedia solution is to do nothing or to protect the article from editing ad infinitum. For the article to truly be stable, there would have to be a proprietor who blocks everyone on one side of the argument and makes the official stance the other side of the argument. Obviously the "fair" solution is to include everyone's views on the matter, but one of the requirements the other group has is to not include everyone's views on the matter - and even though that's POV, they're in the majority and very active about reverting out attempts to change it to NPOV (and they can't be outruled as they include several of the administrators and bureaucrats of Wikipedia). So ArbCom is worth a shot, but I predict more of the same. -- Tjsynkral 01:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
First there are the people who are pov and will absolutely NOT compromise. This is not out of evil but out of a belief that they are serving a higher good. I believe that they will tend to be in a minority. I hope this article would not attract the deviants! Second, I think that most people actually want a really good encyclopedia article. (And by the way, if you want to see one, I would recommend looking at Lochry's Defeat which is up for FA. Compare our article to that one, and this one suffers greatly in the comparison, I think.) Third, I think that if people can get over a lack of trust and believe that the other person really doesn't want to push an agenda but only write a good encyclopedia, we can get past these issues. But it has to be true. There has to be no agenda except to write an article that is good. Fourth, I think that in that situation, you can refer to wikipedia guidelines and rules to help resolve issues and problems. Fifth, I think that we need some system to coordinate. There are too many people who want a piece. This means that there would have to be a plan...an outline ... of the article. And probably not of just the article but of the whole area encompassed by this issue of climate change.-- Blue Tie 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There are only two possible solutions. Either limited edit wars are tolerated (because they are perpetrated by a few and they cannot change the article to their liking anyway) or some users will be banned. A consensus was already reached. The article focusses on the science. If we discuss politics and other issues then that can't be used to dispute the science. The science that can be included in this article can only come from reputable peer reviewed sources. This means e.g. that the conclusions of the study by Oreskes can be mentioned in the article, but not those of the Oregon petition.
Reverting people who repeatedly violate these basic principles is i.m.o. not a big deal (In some other science articles these sorts of reverts happen every day). But if some adminstrator thinks that it is a big deal, then he/she should ban the POV pushers. I think that any further block on editing this article won't do much good, because the hard core POV pushers won't ever change their behavior. Count Iblis 02:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we discuss Alkivar's conduct on this page? First he put a 1-week protect on the article without so much as a post to the talk page, now he is aggressively blanking sections of the article and archiving still-active talk page discussions. I for one don't think this behavior is right and it's borderline vandalism. -- Tjsynkral 04:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Nah, the first edit warring was done by Jacob Buerk ( talk · contribs), and he's blocked. Read WP:AN, it's fun! --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd encourage all editors on this page to follow WP:0RR to avoid creating further conflict on the article. Naconkantari 04:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, please follow at least Harmonious editing club guidelines -- Kim Bruning 04:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe wait a little while before you actually edit, and move slowly, while things sort themselves out. -- Kim Bruning 05:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps at some point the disappearance of the FA star can be explained? --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The edits immediately before Tjsynkral's plainly violated WP:NPOV by taking a firm position on a scientific controversy that different scientists disagree about.(e.g., "40%", "primary factors" vs. insert of "insignificant"). There was no commentary on the talk page supporting this new conclusory evaluation of multiple points of view. That's one way to achieve stability for an article if a different standard for blocking is applied to edits that fail to adhere to the favored POV than those that do on grounds of "edit warring". Someone should add an NPOV tag, but I imagine someone has previously removed one, and I don't want to be accused of edit-warring. -- THF 05:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem with the first section. It says:
These conclusions have been endorsed by more than 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized states, and no individual scientists disagree. [1] The only scientific society that denies human-caused global warming is the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. [2] [3]
It can be demonstrated instantly that there are individual scientists who disagree. But even if that cannot be demonstrated, the statement makes a positive assertion that there are none who disagree, but the citation does not say that. The citation only says that in one study of 928 abstracts, a social scientist could not find any abstracts that clearly disagreed with the mainstream views. That is definitely not the same thing as no individual scientists disagree.
It is an un-sourced statement as it is written.
And now, this article makes it clear that at least the following scientists disagree:
Bill Gray, Richard Lindzen, S. Fred Singer, Pat Michaels, Sterling Burnett,
So the statement is wrong that none do. -- Blue Tie 05:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Oreskes in the intro at all? The article is not about Oreskes, and the Oreskes paper is only a single point of view that is contradicted by the refutation of Oreskes by Peiser [1]. THF 06:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Akhilleus, you may think Peiser is "wrong," but NPOV prevents the article from making that evaluation. If Oreskes is included, Peiser's attempt to replicate Oreskes needs to be included with the same prominence. NPOV and NOR means that it matters little to the article content whether you or I think a particular notable reliable source is wrong or right. THF 06:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Oreskes does not belong in the lead - it is excess detail William M. Connolley 09:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
William, I see you put back the sol/vol information back into the lead after your revert (fine). Are you fine if it is removed, as the exact same sentence appears in the solar variation section. I think either Schulz or Arritt moved it originally (excessive detail?). ~ UBeR 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
So apparently I was blocked for making one edit to the page. Not reverting, not doing anything of the sort. The administrator who blocked me never responded to my e-mail, and eventually the hour was up.
We need a template atop the page to warn users: DO NOT EDIT OR YOU MAY BE BLOCKED. Whatever happened to Be Bold? This is a chilling effect when administrators can block someone for making one edit - who is going to try to improve the article when they have to worry about being blocked over it? -- Tjsynkral 05:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Naconkantari added a hidden note to the top of the page. While this is probably a good idea, I feel like the note should probably say "Please do not make any edits or reverts to the article which are reasonably likely to be contested without first discussing on the talk page." We're all aware of the wisdom of discussing controversial edits, but I think as worded the warning might give people the idea that material should only be added, not removed, which is somewhat at odds with the way things currently work. Thoughts on makign this change? -- TeaDrinker 06:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Somewhat to my surprise, I see that the sol var stuff has been considerably downgraded - its out of the causes section and is, it seems, proven to be negligible. I'm surprised the skeptics haven't howled about it. I now think it is underweighted and should be moved back up William M. Connolley 09:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The citation requested in the Solar variation section is on the next sentence. James S. 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any dispute that solar radiant energy falling on the earth has been decreasing for the past five years, and generally stable in the industrial era? James S. 18:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The past-5-years stuff is a red herring: there is fairly clearly no great impact of the 11-y solar cycle on climate. This (I think) is attributed to the thermal buffering of the ocean; though I've never seen it properly discussed. The point about the solar variation stuff is that it *has* been suggested as contributing, and that should be mentioned, even if the majority opinion is against it. James S is being unreasonable William M. Connolley 08:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
As long as the first one-sentence paragraph includes the qualifier "in recent decades" then I will maintain that solar variation is not a "cause." Agree or disagree; why or why not? James S. 18:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
After two days, nobody is willing to offer an opinion? James S. 17:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
There is significant text missing from this article, namely the 7 or so points (paragraphs) that discussed many facts opposing either the hypothesis that the globe is warming and whether or not global warming, if it is occuring, is significantly or even mildly affected by human activities.
I may have this archived - I will look and submit for review, but it is my belief that it was maliciously removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jzeman ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
I'm not convinced by the entire removal of the econ para. What was left there seemed a fair discussion of the large uncertainties: propaganda section was unjustified William M. Connolley 13:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm baffled: Sm has reinserted [2] the over-long and badly pro-Stern biased econ section. Even if well-written it wouldn't belong; as written, it certainly doesn't William M. Connolley 15:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no justification for such a long section on econ. I've cut it back down to the first para. James S has a distinctly POV desire to include as much Stern as possible but Stern is an outlier William M. Connolley 08:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Childhoosend just removed the paragraph altogether - I have restored it. I'm guessing that he either didn't read the massive discussion of what content should be included or just disagreed with it. Whichever, I don't believe there was a consensus to restrict the article to science only. QmunkE 14:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sm: I appreciate that you want to forget that the straw polls have all gone against you. But there is nothing "good faith" about ignoring them. As to the econ bit - you are forgetting that the author of that screen has been banned from this page for tendentious editing. Ch: there is no insistence on almost-certain: there is an insistence that we should present the mainstream view as mainstream. As far as I can tell, the mainstream econ view is that they don't really know: so its appropriate to present that, briefly William M. Connolley 16:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I can somewhat agree with "As far as I can tell, the mainstream econ view is that they don't really know: so its appropriate to present that, briefly". So, in this regard and so that the "we dont really know" is fairly clear, how about clarifying this section to something like : "Some economists have tried to estimate the aggregate net economic costs of damages from climate change across the globe (the social cost of carbon (SCC)). Such estimates have so far failed to reach conclusive findings; in a survey of 100 estimates, the values ran from US$-10 per tonne of carbon (tC) (US$-3 per tonne of carbon dioxide) up to US$350/tC (US$95 per tonne of carbon dioxide), with a mean of US$43 per tonne of carbon (US$12 per tonne of carbon dioxide). -- Childhood's End 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the sentence, "The US government has ordered scientists it employs to refrain from discussing subjects related to global warming," is a fair summary of the underlying articles, so I intend to replace it. However, in doing so, I am not making "war," even as it is defined in WP:EW; nor am I engaging in a "revert duel." I am reversing the previous editor's deletion of that sentence because I believe they for some reason were not aware that the sentence correctly summarizes several events in the underlying articles. James S. 15:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
How about this sentence?
James S. 16:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- US officials, such as Philip Cooney, have repeatedly edited scientific reports from US government scientists. [10] It has been alleged that many scientists, such as Thomas Knutson, have been ordered to refrain from discussing climate change and related topics.
If the order are documented, then that sounds good. Could you please cite that direct fact in your text? thanks. -- Sm8900 17:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
James, I agree with your material, only that the summary on the GW page is not intended for details. Summaries do not rely on references, so this material belongs on the Politics of global warming article. Putting this here begins to bring in non-peer-reviewed, non-scientific material to this page, which we've achieved a consensus on remaining focused on global warming itself, not the political fallout from it. -- Skyemoor 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
You admitted so yourself in the following discussion(emphasis mine). -- Skyemoor 19:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
It may be prudent to do a review of the summaries. I've just cut one paragraph which while probably correct, wasn't mentioned in the source article (not to mention poorly sourced - which is why i noticed it). The summaries should be short concise descriptions of the various articles, and (imho) not include new stuff that isn't a reflection of the material or text presented in these. Am i completely wrong in this? -- Kim D. Petersen 22:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This article should abide by WP:RS which does not exclude sources other than peer reviewed journals. I would not even have a problem with some limited inclusion of William's research (he is an expert, particularly in models) but I would want to keep that to a minimum (as I expect he would also) and it would be best if items could be supported not from blogs.
Having said that, the purpose and title of the article make a difference. If the article is renamed The science of global warming then it should significantly favor peer reviewed articles. It is, after all, a science article. But if it retains its current name, Global warming it must be larger and broader than it is now and include topics that are not going to be covered in peer-reviewed journals. -- Blue Tie 01:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Blue Tie, for the second time, please read WP:NPOV which states "Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
I think we should have the percentage. James S. 11:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well - for once i agree with Blue Tie here - that sentence is too much, it reads better as "....other hypotheses have been...". But i still have problems with that paragraph. Particularly this sentence "have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures" - i have been tempted several times to add a tag to that one.... First of all - what hypotheses are these? And secondly - can anyone mention even a single hypotheses which explains "all or most"? (for instance solar variation cannot explain the lack of stratospheric warming). -- Kim D. Petersen 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So can we all agree we should go back to the original wording, which was: "Contrasting with the consensus view, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ."
Also, in accordance with Mr. Petersen, I would be fine with changing "all or most" with "some," as I believe it would be improper synthesis to say "all or most" without any such evidence of this. What do you guys think. ~ UBeR 21:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It appears to me like both sides are in a consensus that "tiny minority" - unsubstantiated by any sources - ought to be removed. -- Tjsynkral 00:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that relying upon the editorial to declare that there is only one scientific society is marginal. Unless they did a poll, that source is simply someone's opinion. For the sake of honesty the quote should really read "and the American Quaternary Association believes that there is only one organization that denies" or something like that. But I have not argued for that because, frankly I suspect that there might be others but I do not know of any; it reads better the way it is and it is not that important to me. But it might be important to others and I would not argue with them.
However, to rely upon that editorial for the use of the weasel word "few" in this article is stretching the limits too far. WP:AWW does not say "weasel words need to be cited". It says they should be avoided. Lets get them out of this article. They are just bait for debate anyway. Remove that. -- Blue Tie 02:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Some points: (1) The statement is not an editorial. It's an "article... presented by the Council of the AMQUA" [3]. (2) AMQA is a reliable external source—not an advocacy organization, but a scientific society which "is a professional organization of North American scientists devoted to studying all aspects of the Quaternary Period, about the last 2 million years of Earth history." [4] (3) The standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. As AMQA is reliable source which uses "few", it is acceptable to use that wording even if this was derived just from the council members' personal opinions. That is, it is not our job to decide ultimate truth; we just give citations. Now, if there are comparably reliable external sources which challenge that wording, then it might require revision. Do you know of any? -- Nethgirb 03:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even an editorial in a peer-reviewed journal is reliable if there is no contradiction to it. Has anyone suggested that there is a second scientific society which agrees with the AAPG? James S. 11:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi James, There is also Category:Former global warming supporters currently with two entries, but I have not checked these out to see if their inclusion is warranted. Replying to your earlier comment, it would be great to include actual numbers and I'd be interested to see if you have references for them. -- Nethgirb 20:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line is that we're allowed to use opinions (or facts, by that matter) of sources such as AMQUA, so long as they attributed to the particular person or organization stating them. One very important underlying principle of Wikipedia is that it is not truth, but rather verifiability.
“ | The 20th century does not stand out as a notably warm period in the long timescale perspective. A medieval period from AD900 – 1100 is markedly warmer than the 20thcentury [6] | ” |
It ought to go in the article, not only couldn't I edit it, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere listing the evidence that contradicts the assertion of the global warming fraternity - it really ought to be in the article - can someone help?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.111.119.165 ( talk • contribs).
I highly believe that the introduction of the article should be changed to reflect that Global Warming is the IDEA that yada yada yada, and not presented as a definite fact.
The first part is in the lead. The part called into question currently reads:
However, it originally read, and should read:
Read carefully and notice overly catastrophic and rhetorical speech, "such as bearing the brunt," in comparison to "deal[ing] with"; "flooding of coastal cities" with "sea level rise"; removal of "difficult to connect specific [weather] events to global warming"; etcetera. It is also in violation of WP:LEAD, in that it does not adequately summarize the article, because all mentions to politics and controversy have been removed (save, of course, Kyoto). ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The obvious is "Contrasting with the predominant scientific view, other tiny minority views have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ." instead the better, "contrasting with the consensus view, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ." (It is also proposed to change "all or most" with "some.") This, however, is probably better discussed in the section on this page already made to cover the issue. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the the paragraph: "Some scientists supporting the mainstream scientific opinion on global warming criticize what they call the "catastrophism and the 'Hollywoodisation'" of some of the expected effects. They argue that sensationalized claims cannot be justified by science. [11]" should be included in the "Effects" section. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, if people are looking for other views, there's always this, published in Nature, and probably many more from respected scientists. This isn't a unique criticism of the catastrophism at all. ~ UBeR 00:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Controversy and politics should be globalized to avoid U.S.-centric rhetoric often associated with Wikipedia. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts are appreciated. Thanks. ~ UBeR 21:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with all 1. The language correctly describes the expected effects. 2. It is deliberately deceptive to state that hypotheses have been proposed when they are known to have been rejected. 3. Why do you want to say "some" when you know the number is two? 4. This is the English Wikipedia, and the US abuses have been the worst in the English-speaking world. James S. 23:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I am removing, as have many before me, the link to the globalboiling.com site from the external links collection. It does not seem to me to be the best of the best when it comes to representing the science, issues, ect. around global warming. A great deal of data is presented, but it is not done so in an accessible form for a layman, since the interpretation is lacking; the site also appears to be linked to theories which do not have mainstream acceptance, such as earthquakes caused by solar radiation. I suggest there is a need to discuss this before adding it back in. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker 23:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Megapixie you are an abusive editor and censoring a relevant site. You are simply now trying to support a bad edit decission. this is not personal. don't make it so.
Even my whole discussion I posted on this discussion page about this censorship of this link is now gone.
globalboiling.com is very readable to the expert and amatuer. In any case there is no requirement that a site be easily readable by someone without any knowledge in order for it to be a good link. i would argue few of the links are as readable by the amatuers as is globalboiling.com.
Furthermore all the other links at the wiki global warming article have amazon or even direct book sale links! the link http://www.aip.org/history/climate for example blatantly pitches a book on the first page with very little other info presented to the reader except "buy the book". why haven't you deleted it megapixie! but you kniow what? I think the link should still stay and i don't have anything to do with it or the book. why? becuase it is better to err on the side of more info than less.
Anyway Amazon referrals are not a reason for exclusion of a link. They also don't qualify a site as commercial or primarily advertising or spam or a reason to exclude a link. most sites today include some sort of amazon referral links. that doesn't make them primarily commercial. Clearly globalboiling.com isn't commercial since the data is presented freely.
Frankly very few of the other links fro the wiki article do much to educate the reader except take them through huge organizational pages eventually asking them to contribute somehow. in fact in comparsion globalboiling is far LESS commercial and MORE relevant than the other links if data is what people want.
I am sorry but first megapixie called my link spam which it obviously is not and now he comes up with nonesense that doesn't even match the criteria for other links already here.
And furthermore -no- I STRNOGLY disagree that the link should stay unlinked until discussion. what are you afraid of? that a few people might actually visit the website?
or have you become too censorship driven thinking the global warming page is your entitlement to control. It isn't. It is a public wiki. unless rules are clearly violated, public contributions should stay first not the other way around.
Unless some overwhelmng reason is given it should stay. That's what wiki is . Poster's stuff stays unless blatant abuse is shown - NOT the otherway around. wiki is not PRECENSORED.
anyway the site is good and very relevant and it is abuse to keep targeting my adds with conesorship. regarding my wiki activity - I like the global boiling site. WHY SHOULDn't I start my first contributions to WIKI with the sites I like! Did you see my patent contributions as well? nothing to do with globalboiling.com Clearly megapixie my contributions extend beyond the globalboiling link. But even that shouldn't be a criteria. are we to deny contributions from people becuase they only refer to one really great thing they have found? of course not.
Don't you contribute the sites and ifo that interests you megapixie? of course.
The link is good and appropriate and very interesting. it should stay. furthermore the way you guys put new contributors through the ringer when they try to contribute frankly is against the spirit of wiki. wiki is not yours. it is all of ours.
now also i ask that you peopel respect the fact that the general public can't continue to return to these pages to protect their contributions. i ask that you "regualrs" leave it alone. it's not spam and you are making it too hard for the public to contribute. it should not be a contest of who has more spare time to keep reediting a page and that's what you are doing.
it's a great link and people who read the article will appreciate the additonal data the link provides and isn't that why the wiki has links! thanks. sorry for the rant but i have had to waste days of time just to get one good link that will help people understand global warming on a supposedly public wiki. Geopilotwiki 00:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC) geopilotwiki
akhilleus i repsectfully say you are actually contributing to the reverting problem problem and in danger of violating the three revert rule along with megapixie yourself since you are obviously working together. Despite my appeal to stop censoring links akhilleaus in league with teadrinker and megapixie seem to be violating the three revert rules when i pointed out that megapixie was already almost doing it. you cannot violate the spirit of the three revert rule by working with three others to repeatedly censor a good link to globalboiling.com. i repectfully ask once AGAIN that people stop censoring this relevant informative link to data on global warming. any logical person will clearly see globalboiling.com is a relevant and good link for the article on global warming.
Regarding your statements: The collection of DATA CANNOT be found elsewhere. only the indivual feeds can in widely disparate places. It is the unique assembly of data that when juxaposed shows the effects of warm oceans on storms etc. to my knowledge it is the ONLY website that does this ingenius thing. I have watched storms on the feeds and been able to clearly see them building becuase of the warm water sensor displays just underneath.
It has a lot of data. Of COURSE it will be slow. but if each image was on a differnet page then it wouldn't fullfill the objective of data juxaposition would it?
I never had a javascript problem on the page. Yes it has a lot of java but it is for the large image animations. your computer may have too little java memeory allocated.
i am redding this and taking it to appeals unless you stop workiongwith others to censor this in violation of the three revert rule. this is silly. you should be censoring this link. dont make it personal. if one of you does reverts it again i will ask for revocation of your admin status. clearly you have other agenda against this page becuase it is so obviously relevant. I suggest you take a breath before reverting the page again and actually ask yourself whether you feel you can justifiy precensoring readers ability to access the public global warming data and on what justification you are deleting a good link in violation of wiki goals and rules. My hope is you will do the right thing but its pretty obvious that a group has claimed unsupportable control of this wiki and acting together to exert it in violation of wiki policy.
Geopilotwiki
00:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)geopilotwiki
Geopilotwiki won't be able to respond to this message quickly; he's been blocked for 3RR. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Non-notable amateur website containing numerous scientific errors and personal conjecture. It has no business being linked here. Raymond Arritt 13:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Whoah, major edit warring going on here. Can I offer some tea? Kyaa the Catlord 13:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
That site is useless. i like how the creator is trying to tie earthquakes to globalwarming. What won't people blame on Global Warming? even if the earth was cooling i bet people would credit the cooling with global warming. Gavinthesavage 20:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to keep harping on about this but:
There are ZERO in-line citations in these three paragraphs, and the vast majority of the content is a discussion of the Greenhouse effect which is then discussed again in further detail below in its own section. A statement like "Adding CO2 or CH4 to Earth's atmosphere, with no other changes, will make the planet's surface warmer" really needs a reliable and relevant source. Can these either be removed, or sourced and the greenhouse effect content merged with this? I'm guessing the major problem in doing this is that Greenhouse effect is very poorly sourced at the moment, so it isn't possible simply to copy the references from there. QmunkE 09:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is another point. The article seems to misqoute the IPCC report, twice. "The IPCC concludes that phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes have probably had a warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950, but a cooling effect since 1950.[1]" in the causes section, and "Other phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes have probably had a warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950, but a cooling effect since 1950.[1]" in the lead. Where does this come from? I can't see it in the IPCC report. Perhaps this came from the previous IPCC report?
Paul Matthews
13:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Would this belong somewhere in the article? [12] -- Childhood's End 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to remind everyone of the following hidden comment at the beginning of our article:
**Note!**
Please do not revert any non-vandalism changes to this article without first discussing on the talk page.
Thanks
William, I noticed you deleted an entire chunk of text of well-sourced text regarding glaciers. I see no reason for this. If information is valid, coherent and well-sourced, i do not think it needs to all be deleted. however, i did not restore the entire chunk of text, but rather just one basic part of it. -- Sm8900 13:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Problem 1: The last part of the following sentence violates WP:SUMMARY (it is not in subarticle and is a minor detail) and WP:NPOV (Undue Weight: a small detail that emphasizes one viewpoint).
Recommendation: Excise the sentence fragment and combine the rest with other effects per WP:Summary, as follows;
Problem 2: The following sentence violates WP:SUMMARY (it is not in subarticle and is a minor detail), WP:AWW (“some” when the real known number is two), and WP:NPOV (Undue Weight: a tiny minority viewpoint);
Recommendation: Excise the two sentences from this article, unless justification can be supported that removes the three violations.
Please comment. Thanks, -- 198.151.13.10 16:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Text from SM900 that has provoked revert war;
If I may be so bold, but is this exactly what you meant? Or did you mean that the initiation of the last warming cycle was Milankovitch based? There's a significant difference. -- Skyemoor 14:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Quick question: Is this a "however" or is this more of a "correlation" or "contributing factor"? -- Kim Bruning 18:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
including eight glacial cycles timed by orbital variations with interglacial warming periods warmer than current temperatures. What is the basis for saying warmer? Is the claim that all 8 periods were warmer? If not, then the text needs correcting. If so, where is the predominant citations to support this? -- Skyemoor
There is no evidence to support the claim that the last eight interglacials were warmer than 'current temperatures' (and what is meant by 'current temperatures'?). This statement should be removed from the article because it is not supported by the literature. For those who believe it is, lets see the references. JP 205.189.26.38 20:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think everyone agrees that the causes section was no great, and there was a lot of repeats between the main bit and the GHG section. I've tried to fix that by reordering some and moving others into a "feedbacks" section.
In principle, the feedbacks apply to most forcings - solar for example. However, there is a rub - if you believe that solar has caused most of the variations, you believe that the GHE of variations in CO2, CH4, and presumably water, is small. So you can't worry about, eg, clathrate releases if you're a solar-ist. Fortunately none of the solar folk get this far, so I've just left it unresolved.
And the article could mention the major negative feedback - R=rhoT^4 - possibly William M. Connolley 20:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The introduction is painfully agenda driven at the moment, it needs to summarise the observed increase in temps, the scientific theory of Global Warming (both natural and anthropogenic). The IPCC has absolutely no place in the introduction. Grimerking 07:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, why is nothing in the introduction referenced? There are many 'statements of fact' with nothing to back them up. Is this deliberate? Grimerking 07:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The reason that the IPCC is in the intro is because of the sources zealots. The article *could* just say (and I would be happier with) The observed global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.3 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century. Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations. but of course people would complain that it was unsourced. Apart from that, the article does what GK wants, as far as I can see. Perhaps GK/BT should put a proposed alternative intro on the talk page for discussion William M. Connolley 14:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is disappointing, even for Wikipedia standards, when it comes to neutrality. Many of these facts are flat out false and many of these assumptions are almost laughable. As for 'sources', all I'm finding are a ton of unreliable sites. The very language of this article is unbalanced. I'd suggest one of those "The Neutrality of this Article Is Disputed" notices on the front page of this article , but seeing as the major editors (meaning people with enough time on their hands, due to a lack of life, to win a foolish edit war) and moderators (who declare it featured and one of the best articles on Wikipedia to make people actually believe a lot of this stuff) are all for this thing, that would be futile. -- squeakytoad 16:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
ST, you started off with Many of these facts are flat out false and many of these assumptions are almost laughable. As for 'sources', all I'm finding are a ton of unreliable sites, were asked with examples, and haven't really produced anything. Please present some of these false facts that you assert William M. Connolley 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Right... well, I'm done. This discussion takes up quite a bit of page. When everyone gets bored of reading it, I have no objections to its deletion. Cheers. -- squeakytoad 08:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The following link provides valuable information on what it would take to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and what technologies would allow one to do so. One can access this information through video streams, power point slides, or a transcript.
http://nsl.caltech.edu/energy.html
131.215.220.112 06:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The article's guiding philosophy as presented in its first sentence (the definition of the concept) is where the article goes wrong relative to pov. From there on, it never recovers.
The philosophy is this: Global warming is a contemporary issue, hence the only history that is relevant is recent history.
In itself, this is a non-neutral point of view. However, it leads to other pov problems and is contrary to wikipedia policies. The article should start with the the recognition that Global Warming is a phenomenon that is believed to have occurred throughout the measured history of the earth's atmosphere.
This definition does not deny it is happening now. It does not deny that mankind may be involved. But it also recognizes a fact of history that may have a bearing on the way that readers interpret the information in the article. It sets the tone for how the article should proceed. In my opinion, without this change in the basic definition (which is easily attributable to many reliable sources) the article will remain fundamentally flawed. -- Blue Tie 16:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
CR. Good grief, the popular usage follows the scientific. Was that all just to avoid responding to the main point I was making. The article you want is climate change for global cooling and warming cycles through geologic time due to non-anthropogenic causes. The current global warming is exceptional and a departure from the natural cycles. Now Blue tie, can you address that - rather than endless talk about who I supposedly disagree with? Vsmith 23:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a legitimate question here about POV. If term global warming is defined as anthropogenic climate change then that should be clearly stated. Ken 21:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is ongoing political and public debate regarding what if any action should be taken to reduce or reverse future warming or to adapt to its expected consequences. Most national governments have signed and ratified the Kyoto Protocol aimed at combating greenhouse gas emissions. Unquote.
Note: Political and Public debate are not the same. The actual debate over AGW in public is certainly not resolved. The political debate seems done and dusted (actual high-ranking environmental politicians consider the debate over) with many western govts (particulary E.U bloc) accepting AGW as fact, citing Stern, IPCC etc. As a result, and despite the debate not being resolved in public these Govts are pressing ahead with measures, at a national and local level. -- Dean1970 23:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
My point is this, and it maybe a minor one, but it's a point nonetheless. The E.U isn't using the "what if" approach. AGW is considered a fact in their estimations. AGW is not considered a fact in Public. They're pressing ahead with measures (not debating "what should we do if anything"). -- Dean1970 23:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
In fact I wouldn't call it debate, the fact that a certain documentary is part of the curriculum in secondary education across europe smacks more of hysterical alarmism than reasoned debate. -- Dean1970 23:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Public debate differs greatly from Political debate, the former can debate all they want and it wouldn't matter to the latter. The E.U considers debate about AGW done and dusted and are pressing ahead with measures (no what if) despite the debate not being resolved in Public. Referendums over the E.U constitution have proven beyond doubt that the public doesn't always agree with the Political desires of Brussels. Public and Political debate vary greatly, they're not the same. -- Dean1970 00:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
An excellent observation. Australia admits AGW as fact based on a recent weather trend to press ahead with measures despite the longest recorded hot spell in the world occuring in that very country at Marble Bar, W. Australia 100'f (or above) for 162 consecutive days Oct 1923-April 1924, I could cite this month (2007) as being unusually very cold as an argument to say that AGW is flawed so no measures are needed.
Stern is now an advisor to U.K govt, Gore is on record as saying the E.U will lead the way. Political debate weighs more to accepting AGW as fact, the public debate is not resolved. The two vary greatly. -- Dean1970 00:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it probably belongs in another section. "Politics of AGW". Just raising a point though. Thank you all for responding. -- Dean1970 00:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the ozone section should read like this:
Ozone The concept of global warming and ozone depletion are commonly conflated, though the two issues are very different and have different roots there is a relationship between the two.
And maybe some detail on how they are related.
I know that many in the public confuse the two issues (though that may be less common than it used to be) but there is a link and the present description I think is misleading.
Ken
21:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
[AAPG] stands alone among scientific societies in its denial of human-induced effects on global warming.
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help page).[AAPG] stands alone among scientific societies in its denial of human-induced effects on global warming.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | → | Archive 30 |
As per the request, and after contacting the admin responsible for the protection, I am unprotecting this article. I can quite understand the reasons which lead the admin to protect this article. Currently, my own opinion is that, given the current state of the article, pretty much any edits are preferable to leaving it as it is. This is not to condone the multiple actions of many different editors which have reduced a featured article to this state: I must remind all concerned that disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is a blockable offense independantly of the three revert rule, as has been confirmed by the Arbitration Committee on several occasions.
For the majority of editors, who are editing in good faith, I invite you to consider that the best way of putting your point is to " write for the enemy" rather than engaging in trench warfare. Wikipedia is neither an election meeting nor a saloon bar; our aim is to be useful to our readers. Physchim62 (talk) 03:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Global Warming Dmcdevit method:
We'll be trying some of Dmcdevit's thoughts out on Global Warming.
We're unprotecting now. Could folks please keep an eye on the page, and block any Edit warriors on sight? (Note that you can block for edit warring even when there has been no strict 3RRvio, but do be careful of what you call an edit war, nevertheless.)
Hopefully no-one will actually be editwarring, but since we're unprotecting a contentious page, you never really know for sure.
-- Kim Bruning 03:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, who just decided it is a good idea to archive discussions which are only an hour old? why is this being done? It seems like it was done by people who are uninvolved in this article. Thanks. -- Sm8900 04:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
(Note: Restoring this talk section from archive, as it was active as of today. Thanks. -- Sm8900 04:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC))
Mediation has got us nowhere, all the discussion has changed little, and edit wars are continual. I believe that the only way to settle this conflict would be through arbitration. What are other people's views on this? Would others support moving the dispute to ArbCom? All other steps seem to have been taken. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 00:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the strangest edit I have seen today! LOL. -- Blue Tie 01:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the problem with this article isn't one that the Wikipedia model can resolve. The Wikipedia model tries to be fair to everyone, and when there's a split in users' opinions that they aren't willing to budge on, the Wikipedia solution is to do nothing or to protect the article from editing ad infinitum. For the article to truly be stable, there would have to be a proprietor who blocks everyone on one side of the argument and makes the official stance the other side of the argument. Obviously the "fair" solution is to include everyone's views on the matter, but one of the requirements the other group has is to not include everyone's views on the matter - and even though that's POV, they're in the majority and very active about reverting out attempts to change it to NPOV (and they can't be outruled as they include several of the administrators and bureaucrats of Wikipedia). So ArbCom is worth a shot, but I predict more of the same. -- Tjsynkral 01:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
First there are the people who are pov and will absolutely NOT compromise. This is not out of evil but out of a belief that they are serving a higher good. I believe that they will tend to be in a minority. I hope this article would not attract the deviants! Second, I think that most people actually want a really good encyclopedia article. (And by the way, if you want to see one, I would recommend looking at Lochry's Defeat which is up for FA. Compare our article to that one, and this one suffers greatly in the comparison, I think.) Third, I think that if people can get over a lack of trust and believe that the other person really doesn't want to push an agenda but only write a good encyclopedia, we can get past these issues. But it has to be true. There has to be no agenda except to write an article that is good. Fourth, I think that in that situation, you can refer to wikipedia guidelines and rules to help resolve issues and problems. Fifth, I think that we need some system to coordinate. There are too many people who want a piece. This means that there would have to be a plan...an outline ... of the article. And probably not of just the article but of the whole area encompassed by this issue of climate change.-- Blue Tie 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There are only two possible solutions. Either limited edit wars are tolerated (because they are perpetrated by a few and they cannot change the article to their liking anyway) or some users will be banned. A consensus was already reached. The article focusses on the science. If we discuss politics and other issues then that can't be used to dispute the science. The science that can be included in this article can only come from reputable peer reviewed sources. This means e.g. that the conclusions of the study by Oreskes can be mentioned in the article, but not those of the Oregon petition.
Reverting people who repeatedly violate these basic principles is i.m.o. not a big deal (In some other science articles these sorts of reverts happen every day). But if some adminstrator thinks that it is a big deal, then he/she should ban the POV pushers. I think that any further block on editing this article won't do much good, because the hard core POV pushers won't ever change their behavior. Count Iblis 02:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we discuss Alkivar's conduct on this page? First he put a 1-week protect on the article without so much as a post to the talk page, now he is aggressively blanking sections of the article and archiving still-active talk page discussions. I for one don't think this behavior is right and it's borderline vandalism. -- Tjsynkral 04:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Nah, the first edit warring was done by Jacob Buerk ( talk · contribs), and he's blocked. Read WP:AN, it's fun! --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'd encourage all editors on this page to follow WP:0RR to avoid creating further conflict on the article. Naconkantari 04:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, please follow at least Harmonious editing club guidelines -- Kim Bruning 04:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe wait a little while before you actually edit, and move slowly, while things sort themselves out. -- Kim Bruning 05:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps at some point the disappearance of the FA star can be explained? --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The edits immediately before Tjsynkral's plainly violated WP:NPOV by taking a firm position on a scientific controversy that different scientists disagree about.(e.g., "40%", "primary factors" vs. insert of "insignificant"). There was no commentary on the talk page supporting this new conclusory evaluation of multiple points of view. That's one way to achieve stability for an article if a different standard for blocking is applied to edits that fail to adhere to the favored POV than those that do on grounds of "edit warring". Someone should add an NPOV tag, but I imagine someone has previously removed one, and I don't want to be accused of edit-warring. -- THF 05:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem with the first section. It says:
These conclusions have been endorsed by more than 30 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized states, and no individual scientists disagree. [1] The only scientific society that denies human-caused global warming is the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. [2] [3]
It can be demonstrated instantly that there are individual scientists who disagree. But even if that cannot be demonstrated, the statement makes a positive assertion that there are none who disagree, but the citation does not say that. The citation only says that in one study of 928 abstracts, a social scientist could not find any abstracts that clearly disagreed with the mainstream views. That is definitely not the same thing as no individual scientists disagree.
It is an un-sourced statement as it is written.
And now, this article makes it clear that at least the following scientists disagree:
Bill Gray, Richard Lindzen, S. Fred Singer, Pat Michaels, Sterling Burnett,
So the statement is wrong that none do. -- Blue Tie 05:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Oreskes in the intro at all? The article is not about Oreskes, and the Oreskes paper is only a single point of view that is contradicted by the refutation of Oreskes by Peiser [1]. THF 06:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Akhilleus, you may think Peiser is "wrong," but NPOV prevents the article from making that evaluation. If Oreskes is included, Peiser's attempt to replicate Oreskes needs to be included with the same prominence. NPOV and NOR means that it matters little to the article content whether you or I think a particular notable reliable source is wrong or right. THF 06:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Oreskes does not belong in the lead - it is excess detail William M. Connolley 09:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
William, I see you put back the sol/vol information back into the lead after your revert (fine). Are you fine if it is removed, as the exact same sentence appears in the solar variation section. I think either Schulz or Arritt moved it originally (excessive detail?). ~ UBeR 18:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
So apparently I was blocked for making one edit to the page. Not reverting, not doing anything of the sort. The administrator who blocked me never responded to my e-mail, and eventually the hour was up.
We need a template atop the page to warn users: DO NOT EDIT OR YOU MAY BE BLOCKED. Whatever happened to Be Bold? This is a chilling effect when administrators can block someone for making one edit - who is going to try to improve the article when they have to worry about being blocked over it? -- Tjsynkral 05:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Naconkantari added a hidden note to the top of the page. While this is probably a good idea, I feel like the note should probably say "Please do not make any edits or reverts to the article which are reasonably likely to be contested without first discussing on the talk page." We're all aware of the wisdom of discussing controversial edits, but I think as worded the warning might give people the idea that material should only be added, not removed, which is somewhat at odds with the way things currently work. Thoughts on makign this change? -- TeaDrinker 06:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Somewhat to my surprise, I see that the sol var stuff has been considerably downgraded - its out of the causes section and is, it seems, proven to be negligible. I'm surprised the skeptics haven't howled about it. I now think it is underweighted and should be moved back up William M. Connolley 09:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The citation requested in the Solar variation section is on the next sentence. James S. 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there any dispute that solar radiant energy falling on the earth has been decreasing for the past five years, and generally stable in the industrial era? James S. 18:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The past-5-years stuff is a red herring: there is fairly clearly no great impact of the 11-y solar cycle on climate. This (I think) is attributed to the thermal buffering of the ocean; though I've never seen it properly discussed. The point about the solar variation stuff is that it *has* been suggested as contributing, and that should be mentioned, even if the majority opinion is against it. James S is being unreasonable William M. Connolley 08:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
As long as the first one-sentence paragraph includes the qualifier "in recent decades" then I will maintain that solar variation is not a "cause." Agree or disagree; why or why not? James S. 18:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
After two days, nobody is willing to offer an opinion? James S. 17:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
There is significant text missing from this article, namely the 7 or so points (paragraphs) that discussed many facts opposing either the hypothesis that the globe is warming and whether or not global warming, if it is occuring, is significantly or even mildly affected by human activities.
I may have this archived - I will look and submit for review, but it is my belief that it was maliciously removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jzeman ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
I'm not convinced by the entire removal of the econ para. What was left there seemed a fair discussion of the large uncertainties: propaganda section was unjustified William M. Connolley 13:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm baffled: Sm has reinserted [2] the over-long and badly pro-Stern biased econ section. Even if well-written it wouldn't belong; as written, it certainly doesn't William M. Connolley 15:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no justification for such a long section on econ. I've cut it back down to the first para. James S has a distinctly POV desire to include as much Stern as possible but Stern is an outlier William M. Connolley 08:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Childhoosend just removed the paragraph altogether - I have restored it. I'm guessing that he either didn't read the massive discussion of what content should be included or just disagreed with it. Whichever, I don't believe there was a consensus to restrict the article to science only. QmunkE 14:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sm: I appreciate that you want to forget that the straw polls have all gone against you. But there is nothing "good faith" about ignoring them. As to the econ bit - you are forgetting that the author of that screen has been banned from this page for tendentious editing. Ch: there is no insistence on almost-certain: there is an insistence that we should present the mainstream view as mainstream. As far as I can tell, the mainstream econ view is that they don't really know: so its appropriate to present that, briefly William M. Connolley 16:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I can somewhat agree with "As far as I can tell, the mainstream econ view is that they don't really know: so its appropriate to present that, briefly". So, in this regard and so that the "we dont really know" is fairly clear, how about clarifying this section to something like : "Some economists have tried to estimate the aggregate net economic costs of damages from climate change across the globe (the social cost of carbon (SCC)). Such estimates have so far failed to reach conclusive findings; in a survey of 100 estimates, the values ran from US$-10 per tonne of carbon (tC) (US$-3 per tonne of carbon dioxide) up to US$350/tC (US$95 per tonne of carbon dioxide), with a mean of US$43 per tonne of carbon (US$12 per tonne of carbon dioxide). -- Childhood's End 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the sentence, "The US government has ordered scientists it employs to refrain from discussing subjects related to global warming," is a fair summary of the underlying articles, so I intend to replace it. However, in doing so, I am not making "war," even as it is defined in WP:EW; nor am I engaging in a "revert duel." I am reversing the previous editor's deletion of that sentence because I believe they for some reason were not aware that the sentence correctly summarizes several events in the underlying articles. James S. 15:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
How about this sentence?
James S. 16:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- US officials, such as Philip Cooney, have repeatedly edited scientific reports from US government scientists. [10] It has been alleged that many scientists, such as Thomas Knutson, have been ordered to refrain from discussing climate change and related topics.
If the order are documented, then that sounds good. Could you please cite that direct fact in your text? thanks. -- Sm8900 17:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
James, I agree with your material, only that the summary on the GW page is not intended for details. Summaries do not rely on references, so this material belongs on the Politics of global warming article. Putting this here begins to bring in non-peer-reviewed, non-scientific material to this page, which we've achieved a consensus on remaining focused on global warming itself, not the political fallout from it. -- Skyemoor 17:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
You admitted so yourself in the following discussion(emphasis mine). -- Skyemoor 19:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
It may be prudent to do a review of the summaries. I've just cut one paragraph which while probably correct, wasn't mentioned in the source article (not to mention poorly sourced - which is why i noticed it). The summaries should be short concise descriptions of the various articles, and (imho) not include new stuff that isn't a reflection of the material or text presented in these. Am i completely wrong in this? -- Kim D. Petersen 22:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This article should abide by WP:RS which does not exclude sources other than peer reviewed journals. I would not even have a problem with some limited inclusion of William's research (he is an expert, particularly in models) but I would want to keep that to a minimum (as I expect he would also) and it would be best if items could be supported not from blogs.
Having said that, the purpose and title of the article make a difference. If the article is renamed The science of global warming then it should significantly favor peer reviewed articles. It is, after all, a science article. But if it retains its current name, Global warming it must be larger and broader than it is now and include topics that are not going to be covered in peer-reviewed journals. -- Blue Tie 01:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Blue Tie, for the second time, please read WP:NPOV which states "Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skyemoor ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
I think we should have the percentage. James S. 11:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well - for once i agree with Blue Tie here - that sentence is too much, it reads better as "....other hypotheses have been...". But i still have problems with that paragraph. Particularly this sentence "have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures" - i have been tempted several times to add a tag to that one.... First of all - what hypotheses are these? And secondly - can anyone mention even a single hypotheses which explains "all or most"? (for instance solar variation cannot explain the lack of stratospheric warming). -- Kim D. Petersen 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So can we all agree we should go back to the original wording, which was: "Contrasting with the consensus view, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ."
Also, in accordance with Mr. Petersen, I would be fine with changing "all or most" with "some," as I believe it would be improper synthesis to say "all or most" without any such evidence of this. What do you guys think. ~ UBeR 21:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It appears to me like both sides are in a consensus that "tiny minority" - unsubstantiated by any sources - ought to be removed. -- Tjsynkral 00:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe that relying upon the editorial to declare that there is only one scientific society is marginal. Unless they did a poll, that source is simply someone's opinion. For the sake of honesty the quote should really read "and the American Quaternary Association believes that there is only one organization that denies" or something like that. But I have not argued for that because, frankly I suspect that there might be others but I do not know of any; it reads better the way it is and it is not that important to me. But it might be important to others and I would not argue with them.
However, to rely upon that editorial for the use of the weasel word "few" in this article is stretching the limits too far. WP:AWW does not say "weasel words need to be cited". It says they should be avoided. Lets get them out of this article. They are just bait for debate anyway. Remove that. -- Blue Tie 02:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Some points: (1) The statement is not an editorial. It's an "article... presented by the Council of the AMQUA" [3]. (2) AMQA is a reliable external source—not an advocacy organization, but a scientific society which "is a professional organization of North American scientists devoted to studying all aspects of the Quaternary Period, about the last 2 million years of Earth history." [4] (3) The standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. As AMQA is reliable source which uses "few", it is acceptable to use that wording even if this was derived just from the council members' personal opinions. That is, it is not our job to decide ultimate truth; we just give citations. Now, if there are comparably reliable external sources which challenge that wording, then it might require revision. Do you know of any? -- Nethgirb 03:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Even an editorial in a peer-reviewed journal is reliable if there is no contradiction to it. Has anyone suggested that there is a second scientific society which agrees with the AAPG? James S. 11:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi James, There is also Category:Former global warming supporters currently with two entries, but I have not checked these out to see if their inclusion is warranted. Replying to your earlier comment, it would be great to include actual numbers and I'd be interested to see if you have references for them. -- Nethgirb 20:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line is that we're allowed to use opinions (or facts, by that matter) of sources such as AMQUA, so long as they attributed to the particular person or organization stating them. One very important underlying principle of Wikipedia is that it is not truth, but rather verifiability.
“ | The 20th century does not stand out as a notably warm period in the long timescale perspective. A medieval period from AD900 – 1100 is markedly warmer than the 20thcentury [6] | ” |
It ought to go in the article, not only couldn't I edit it, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere listing the evidence that contradicts the assertion of the global warming fraternity - it really ought to be in the article - can someone help?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.111.119.165 ( talk • contribs).
I highly believe that the introduction of the article should be changed to reflect that Global Warming is the IDEA that yada yada yada, and not presented as a definite fact.
The first part is in the lead. The part called into question currently reads:
However, it originally read, and should read:
Read carefully and notice overly catastrophic and rhetorical speech, "such as bearing the brunt," in comparison to "deal[ing] with"; "flooding of coastal cities" with "sea level rise"; removal of "difficult to connect specific [weather] events to global warming"; etcetera. It is also in violation of WP:LEAD, in that it does not adequately summarize the article, because all mentions to politics and controversy have been removed (save, of course, Kyoto). ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The obvious is "Contrasting with the predominant scientific view, other tiny minority views have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ." instead the better, "contrasting with the consensus view, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain all or most of the observed increase in global temperatures . . ." (It is also proposed to change "all or most" with "some.") This, however, is probably better discussed in the section on this page already made to cover the issue. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the the paragraph: "Some scientists supporting the mainstream scientific opinion on global warming criticize what they call the "catastrophism and the 'Hollywoodisation'" of some of the expected effects. They argue that sensationalized claims cannot be justified by science. [11]" should be included in the "Effects" section. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, if people are looking for other views, there's always this, published in Nature, and probably many more from respected scientists. This isn't a unique criticism of the catastrophism at all. ~ UBeR 00:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Controversy and politics should be globalized to avoid U.S.-centric rhetoric often associated with Wikipedia. ~ UBeR 21:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts are appreciated. Thanks. ~ UBeR 21:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with all 1. The language correctly describes the expected effects. 2. It is deliberately deceptive to state that hypotheses have been proposed when they are known to have been rejected. 3. Why do you want to say "some" when you know the number is two? 4. This is the English Wikipedia, and the US abuses have been the worst in the English-speaking world. James S. 23:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I am removing, as have many before me, the link to the globalboiling.com site from the external links collection. It does not seem to me to be the best of the best when it comes to representing the science, issues, ect. around global warming. A great deal of data is presented, but it is not done so in an accessible form for a layman, since the interpretation is lacking; the site also appears to be linked to theories which do not have mainstream acceptance, such as earthquakes caused by solar radiation. I suggest there is a need to discuss this before adding it back in. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker 23:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Megapixie you are an abusive editor and censoring a relevant site. You are simply now trying to support a bad edit decission. this is not personal. don't make it so.
Even my whole discussion I posted on this discussion page about this censorship of this link is now gone.
globalboiling.com is very readable to the expert and amatuer. In any case there is no requirement that a site be easily readable by someone without any knowledge in order for it to be a good link. i would argue few of the links are as readable by the amatuers as is globalboiling.com.
Furthermore all the other links at the wiki global warming article have amazon or even direct book sale links! the link http://www.aip.org/history/climate for example blatantly pitches a book on the first page with very little other info presented to the reader except "buy the book". why haven't you deleted it megapixie! but you kniow what? I think the link should still stay and i don't have anything to do with it or the book. why? becuase it is better to err on the side of more info than less.
Anyway Amazon referrals are not a reason for exclusion of a link. They also don't qualify a site as commercial or primarily advertising or spam or a reason to exclude a link. most sites today include some sort of amazon referral links. that doesn't make them primarily commercial. Clearly globalboiling.com isn't commercial since the data is presented freely.
Frankly very few of the other links fro the wiki article do much to educate the reader except take them through huge organizational pages eventually asking them to contribute somehow. in fact in comparsion globalboiling is far LESS commercial and MORE relevant than the other links if data is what people want.
I am sorry but first megapixie called my link spam which it obviously is not and now he comes up with nonesense that doesn't even match the criteria for other links already here.
And furthermore -no- I STRNOGLY disagree that the link should stay unlinked until discussion. what are you afraid of? that a few people might actually visit the website?
or have you become too censorship driven thinking the global warming page is your entitlement to control. It isn't. It is a public wiki. unless rules are clearly violated, public contributions should stay first not the other way around.
Unless some overwhelmng reason is given it should stay. That's what wiki is . Poster's stuff stays unless blatant abuse is shown - NOT the otherway around. wiki is not PRECENSORED.
anyway the site is good and very relevant and it is abuse to keep targeting my adds with conesorship. regarding my wiki activity - I like the global boiling site. WHY SHOULDn't I start my first contributions to WIKI with the sites I like! Did you see my patent contributions as well? nothing to do with globalboiling.com Clearly megapixie my contributions extend beyond the globalboiling link. But even that shouldn't be a criteria. are we to deny contributions from people becuase they only refer to one really great thing they have found? of course not.
Don't you contribute the sites and ifo that interests you megapixie? of course.
The link is good and appropriate and very interesting. it should stay. furthermore the way you guys put new contributors through the ringer when they try to contribute frankly is against the spirit of wiki. wiki is not yours. it is all of ours.
now also i ask that you peopel respect the fact that the general public can't continue to return to these pages to protect their contributions. i ask that you "regualrs" leave it alone. it's not spam and you are making it too hard for the public to contribute. it should not be a contest of who has more spare time to keep reediting a page and that's what you are doing.
it's a great link and people who read the article will appreciate the additonal data the link provides and isn't that why the wiki has links! thanks. sorry for the rant but i have had to waste days of time just to get one good link that will help people understand global warming on a supposedly public wiki. Geopilotwiki 00:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC) geopilotwiki
akhilleus i repsectfully say you are actually contributing to the reverting problem problem and in danger of violating the three revert rule along with megapixie yourself since you are obviously working together. Despite my appeal to stop censoring links akhilleaus in league with teadrinker and megapixie seem to be violating the three revert rules when i pointed out that megapixie was already almost doing it. you cannot violate the spirit of the three revert rule by working with three others to repeatedly censor a good link to globalboiling.com. i repectfully ask once AGAIN that people stop censoring this relevant informative link to data on global warming. any logical person will clearly see globalboiling.com is a relevant and good link for the article on global warming.
Regarding your statements: The collection of DATA CANNOT be found elsewhere. only the indivual feeds can in widely disparate places. It is the unique assembly of data that when juxaposed shows the effects of warm oceans on storms etc. to my knowledge it is the ONLY website that does this ingenius thing. I have watched storms on the feeds and been able to clearly see them building becuase of the warm water sensor displays just underneath.
It has a lot of data. Of COURSE it will be slow. but if each image was on a differnet page then it wouldn't fullfill the objective of data juxaposition would it?
I never had a javascript problem on the page. Yes it has a lot of java but it is for the large image animations. your computer may have too little java memeory allocated.
i am redding this and taking it to appeals unless you stop workiongwith others to censor this in violation of the three revert rule. this is silly. you should be censoring this link. dont make it personal. if one of you does reverts it again i will ask for revocation of your admin status. clearly you have other agenda against this page becuase it is so obviously relevant. I suggest you take a breath before reverting the page again and actually ask yourself whether you feel you can justifiy precensoring readers ability to access the public global warming data and on what justification you are deleting a good link in violation of wiki goals and rules. My hope is you will do the right thing but its pretty obvious that a group has claimed unsupportable control of this wiki and acting together to exert it in violation of wiki policy.
Geopilotwiki
00:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)geopilotwiki
Geopilotwiki won't be able to respond to this message quickly; he's been blocked for 3RR. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Non-notable amateur website containing numerous scientific errors and personal conjecture. It has no business being linked here. Raymond Arritt 13:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Whoah, major edit warring going on here. Can I offer some tea? Kyaa the Catlord 13:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
That site is useless. i like how the creator is trying to tie earthquakes to globalwarming. What won't people blame on Global Warming? even if the earth was cooling i bet people would credit the cooling with global warming. Gavinthesavage 20:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to keep harping on about this but:
There are ZERO in-line citations in these three paragraphs, and the vast majority of the content is a discussion of the Greenhouse effect which is then discussed again in further detail below in its own section. A statement like "Adding CO2 or CH4 to Earth's atmosphere, with no other changes, will make the planet's surface warmer" really needs a reliable and relevant source. Can these either be removed, or sourced and the greenhouse effect content merged with this? I'm guessing the major problem in doing this is that Greenhouse effect is very poorly sourced at the moment, so it isn't possible simply to copy the references from there. QmunkE 09:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is another point. The article seems to misqoute the IPCC report, twice. "The IPCC concludes that phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes have probably had a warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950, but a cooling effect since 1950.[1]" in the causes section, and "Other phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes have probably had a warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950, but a cooling effect since 1950.[1]" in the lead. Where does this come from? I can't see it in the IPCC report. Perhaps this came from the previous IPCC report?
Paul Matthews
13:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Would this belong somewhere in the article? [12] -- Childhood's End 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to remind everyone of the following hidden comment at the beginning of our article:
**Note!**
Please do not revert any non-vandalism changes to this article without first discussing on the talk page.
Thanks
William, I noticed you deleted an entire chunk of text of well-sourced text regarding glaciers. I see no reason for this. If information is valid, coherent and well-sourced, i do not think it needs to all be deleted. however, i did not restore the entire chunk of text, but rather just one basic part of it. -- Sm8900 13:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Problem 1: The last part of the following sentence violates WP:SUMMARY (it is not in subarticle and is a minor detail) and WP:NPOV (Undue Weight: a small detail that emphasizes one viewpoint).
Recommendation: Excise the sentence fragment and combine the rest with other effects per WP:Summary, as follows;
Problem 2: The following sentence violates WP:SUMMARY (it is not in subarticle and is a minor detail), WP:AWW (“some” when the real known number is two), and WP:NPOV (Undue Weight: a tiny minority viewpoint);
Recommendation: Excise the two sentences from this article, unless justification can be supported that removes the three violations.
Please comment. Thanks, -- 198.151.13.10 16:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Text from SM900 that has provoked revert war;
If I may be so bold, but is this exactly what you meant? Or did you mean that the initiation of the last warming cycle was Milankovitch based? There's a significant difference. -- Skyemoor 14:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Quick question: Is this a "however" or is this more of a "correlation" or "contributing factor"? -- Kim Bruning 18:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
including eight glacial cycles timed by orbital variations with interglacial warming periods warmer than current temperatures. What is the basis for saying warmer? Is the claim that all 8 periods were warmer? If not, then the text needs correcting. If so, where is the predominant citations to support this? -- Skyemoor
There is no evidence to support the claim that the last eight interglacials were warmer than 'current temperatures' (and what is meant by 'current temperatures'?). This statement should be removed from the article because it is not supported by the literature. For those who believe it is, lets see the references. JP 205.189.26.38 20:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think everyone agrees that the causes section was no great, and there was a lot of repeats between the main bit and the GHG section. I've tried to fix that by reordering some and moving others into a "feedbacks" section.
In principle, the feedbacks apply to most forcings - solar for example. However, there is a rub - if you believe that solar has caused most of the variations, you believe that the GHE of variations in CO2, CH4, and presumably water, is small. So you can't worry about, eg, clathrate releases if you're a solar-ist. Fortunately none of the solar folk get this far, so I've just left it unresolved.
And the article could mention the major negative feedback - R=rhoT^4 - possibly William M. Connolley 20:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The introduction is painfully agenda driven at the moment, it needs to summarise the observed increase in temps, the scientific theory of Global Warming (both natural and anthropogenic). The IPCC has absolutely no place in the introduction. Grimerking 07:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, why is nothing in the introduction referenced? There are many 'statements of fact' with nothing to back them up. Is this deliberate? Grimerking 07:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The reason that the IPCC is in the intro is because of the sources zealots. The article *could* just say (and I would be happier with) The observed global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.3 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century. Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations. but of course people would complain that it was unsourced. Apart from that, the article does what GK wants, as far as I can see. Perhaps GK/BT should put a proposed alternative intro on the talk page for discussion William M. Connolley 14:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is disappointing, even for Wikipedia standards, when it comes to neutrality. Many of these facts are flat out false and many of these assumptions are almost laughable. As for 'sources', all I'm finding are a ton of unreliable sites. The very language of this article is unbalanced. I'd suggest one of those "The Neutrality of this Article Is Disputed" notices on the front page of this article , but seeing as the major editors (meaning people with enough time on their hands, due to a lack of life, to win a foolish edit war) and moderators (who declare it featured and one of the best articles on Wikipedia to make people actually believe a lot of this stuff) are all for this thing, that would be futile. -- squeakytoad 16:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
ST, you started off with Many of these facts are flat out false and many of these assumptions are almost laughable. As for 'sources', all I'm finding are a ton of unreliable sites, were asked with examples, and haven't really produced anything. Please present some of these false facts that you assert William M. Connolley 12:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Right... well, I'm done. This discussion takes up quite a bit of page. When everyone gets bored of reading it, I have no objections to its deletion. Cheers. -- squeakytoad 08:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The following link provides valuable information on what it would take to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, and what technologies would allow one to do so. One can access this information through video streams, power point slides, or a transcript.
http://nsl.caltech.edu/energy.html
131.215.220.112 06:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The article's guiding philosophy as presented in its first sentence (the definition of the concept) is where the article goes wrong relative to pov. From there on, it never recovers.
The philosophy is this: Global warming is a contemporary issue, hence the only history that is relevant is recent history.
In itself, this is a non-neutral point of view. However, it leads to other pov problems and is contrary to wikipedia policies. The article should start with the the recognition that Global Warming is a phenomenon that is believed to have occurred throughout the measured history of the earth's atmosphere.
This definition does not deny it is happening now. It does not deny that mankind may be involved. But it also recognizes a fact of history that may have a bearing on the way that readers interpret the information in the article. It sets the tone for how the article should proceed. In my opinion, without this change in the basic definition (which is easily attributable to many reliable sources) the article will remain fundamentally flawed. -- Blue Tie 16:39, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
CR. Good grief, the popular usage follows the scientific. Was that all just to avoid responding to the main point I was making. The article you want is climate change for global cooling and warming cycles through geologic time due to non-anthropogenic causes. The current global warming is exceptional and a departure from the natural cycles. Now Blue tie, can you address that - rather than endless talk about who I supposedly disagree with? Vsmith 23:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a legitimate question here about POV. If term global warming is defined as anthropogenic climate change then that should be clearly stated. Ken 21:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is ongoing political and public debate regarding what if any action should be taken to reduce or reverse future warming or to adapt to its expected consequences. Most national governments have signed and ratified the Kyoto Protocol aimed at combating greenhouse gas emissions. Unquote.
Note: Political and Public debate are not the same. The actual debate over AGW in public is certainly not resolved. The political debate seems done and dusted (actual high-ranking environmental politicians consider the debate over) with many western govts (particulary E.U bloc) accepting AGW as fact, citing Stern, IPCC etc. As a result, and despite the debate not being resolved in public these Govts are pressing ahead with measures, at a national and local level. -- Dean1970 23:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
My point is this, and it maybe a minor one, but it's a point nonetheless. The E.U isn't using the "what if" approach. AGW is considered a fact in their estimations. AGW is not considered a fact in Public. They're pressing ahead with measures (not debating "what should we do if anything"). -- Dean1970 23:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
In fact I wouldn't call it debate, the fact that a certain documentary is part of the curriculum in secondary education across europe smacks more of hysterical alarmism than reasoned debate. -- Dean1970 23:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Public debate differs greatly from Political debate, the former can debate all they want and it wouldn't matter to the latter. The E.U considers debate about AGW done and dusted and are pressing ahead with measures (no what if) despite the debate not being resolved in Public. Referendums over the E.U constitution have proven beyond doubt that the public doesn't always agree with the Political desires of Brussels. Public and Political debate vary greatly, they're not the same. -- Dean1970 00:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
An excellent observation. Australia admits AGW as fact based on a recent weather trend to press ahead with measures despite the longest recorded hot spell in the world occuring in that very country at Marble Bar, W. Australia 100'f (or above) for 162 consecutive days Oct 1923-April 1924, I could cite this month (2007) as being unusually very cold as an argument to say that AGW is flawed so no measures are needed.
Stern is now an advisor to U.K govt, Gore is on record as saying the E.U will lead the way. Political debate weighs more to accepting AGW as fact, the public debate is not resolved. The two vary greatly. -- Dean1970 00:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it probably belongs in another section. "Politics of AGW". Just raising a point though. Thank you all for responding. -- Dean1970 00:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the ozone section should read like this:
Ozone The concept of global warming and ozone depletion are commonly conflated, though the two issues are very different and have different roots there is a relationship between the two.
And maybe some detail on how they are related.
I know that many in the public confuse the two issues (though that may be less common than it used to be) but there is a link and the present description I think is misleading.
Ken
21:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
[AAPG] stands alone among scientific societies in its denial of human-induced effects on global warming.
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