This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
1. Ludwig von Thallóczy and Konstantin Jireček state that the name of Ivan Kastriota in contemporaneous documents is Iuanus (Ivan!) and not the albanized form Gjon:
Ivan Kastriota, Iuanus Castrioti der Zeitgenossen, ist aus dem Urkundenmaterial dieser Zeit gut bekannt.
— Ludwig von Thallóczy, Konstantin Jireček, "Zwei Urkunden aus Nordalbanien", Archiv für slavische Philologie (1899), Vol. 21, p. 88 [1]
2. In a rather harsh critic to Athanase Gegaj and his book L'Albanie et l'Invasion turque au XV-e siècle, François Pall supports Nicolae Iorga and states that the name Ivan is used to refer to Ivan Kastriota in Ragusan and Venetian documents, as well as by the Byzantine historian Laonikos Chalkokondyles:
Ce n'est pas M. Iorga seul qui „attribue“ (ibid) le nom d'„Ivan“ au père de Scanderbeg, ce sont également les documents vénitiens et ragusains (Iuanus; voy un exemple chez M. Gegaj même, p. 40, note 2), aussi bien que Chalkokandyles...
— François Pall, "Une nouvelle histoire de Scanderbeg (Remarques sur le livre de M. Gegaj)", Revue historique du Sud-Est européen (1937), Vol. 14, p. 298 [2]
3. Bogumil Hrabak in one of his studies reiterates the same and states that the name Ivan was the only name by which Ivan Kastriota was recorded:
Gospodar Šufadaja bio je Ivan Kastriot (koji se kao Ivan uvek beleži)...
— Bogumil Hrabak, "Širenje arbanaških stočara po ravnicama i slovenski ratari srednjovekovne Albanije", Stanovništvo slovenskog porijekla u Albaniji (1990) [3]
4. Oliver Jens Schmitt states that when the Ottomans arrived in Albania, that they gave names to the local landscapes after their former masters, which in Ivan Kastriota's case is Yuvan-ili, after his first name Ivan or Jovan:
Die Osmanen bekundeten ohnehin keine Berührungsängste mit den vorosmanischen Zuständen; sie benannten die meisten Landschaften nach ihren früheren Herren, das Balšaland (Balşa-ili) zwischen dem späteren Ort Kavaja und der Shkumbinmündung, Jonima-Land (nördlich des heutigen Peqin), das Land des Pavlo-Kurtik, des Kondo-Miho und des Bogdan Ripe (alles sonst unbekannte Kleinhenen mit typisch orthodoxen Namen) um den Fluss Shkumbin, Ashtin-ili um Permeti, Zenebish-ili um Gjirokastra, im Norden schließlich auch Jovans Land (Yuvan-ili, das Gebiet von Skanderbegs Vater Ivan oder Jovan Kastriota).
— Oliver Jens Schmitt, Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan (2009), p. 24
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
06:23, 8 May 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
The encyclopedicity of the names is in that a user may find a form of the name in various texts, other than albanian made. No serious source and archival source mentions any "Gjon Kastrioti", and so the door is open for missunderstandings. This is the use of WP. Btw, we should start a discussion on the conformity of the present title to the WP rules.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Many articles have a "name" section, including Skanderbeg. Some have a very extensive serction, like Arianiti family. I have more on the name, as it was used by authors as an indication of origin, therefore encyclopedic.
P.S. Commending on users is prohibited by WP, and cannot substitute arguments on the point.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, text should not be duplicated. Also, large pieces of text, other than quotations, are not suppposed to be in the notes.
Personal interpretations of "concensus" are welcome, but we don't have to aggree on them. If a line has been untouched for years, this doesn't necessarily mean concensus. Articles have to be improved.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 07:55, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually, the title of the article, per se, is a bias towards the albanian POV, but let it be. Trying to suppress the info about the name in a footnote, is too much.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhb4SaECGbk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sbh7jj150
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
15:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
What I see in this talk page, is a confused mixture of two different discussions combined with lots of personal comments and accusations and spiced with edit warring in the article. The result is completely useless. Could we please take a time-out now and try to be constructive? We need to sort out two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.
Regarding the title, it has to be solved through a requested move. There was a RM some years ago about moving it to "John Castriot". The result was "no consensus", and the page was not moved. Any new attempt to move the page will have to go through the same procedure. There is no other way.
The other question, whether the presentation of names should be made through a note or through a separate "Name" section, would normally be possible to solve through an ordinary talk page discussion, but seeing the temperature of this discussion, I would strongly advice to use a request for comments. It takes time, but the benefits are large: More people would participate (for example those of us who are shunning the current discussion because of the heated tone). Also, it would be possible to close the discussion with a formal consensus, thus avoiding more disruptive debates at least for a while.
The current consensus is to present the names as a note. Yes, that's right: When the introduction of the note some years ago has been unchallenged since, it is defined as a consensus. But consensus can change. Given the temperature here, I see no better way to define the current consensus than to open a RfC.
I suggest that the current discussion is closed immediately and that we start from scratch with the two discussions. And please: WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and all that. This discussion has gone too far off the mark. -- T*U ( talk) 18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
We need to sort out two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.
— User:TU-nor 18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
But there are two different discussions. A change of an article title in Wikipedia is actually a page move, and it requires a consensus for moving. Since the current title is/was decided through a requested move, the only way to do a change is through a new move request. Please note that the article title is usually governed by the Wikipedia guideline WP:COMMONNAME, not by the "official name" or the "authentic name" (whatever that means).
— User:TU-nor 09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Whatever name the article ends up with, I hope you will not disagree that other name forms have to be mentioned in the article. Currently they are mentioned in a note, but some editors want it to be presented in a "Name" section, as is done in many other articles. That is another discussion, regardless of the article title.
— User:TU-nor 09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Ιn the english WP, we don't have to look for the "authentic" name for the title, but the one used in english. The really authentic name is either in greek (Ιβάνης/Ιωάννης Καστριώτης, as written in his contemporary chronographers) or latin, or possibly slavonic. There are no primary sources in albanian about him. An albanian form of name that appeared in the 20th c. can be in the first lines of the LEAD, not in the title. Oliver Schmitt calls him with various forms of the name (including Ivan and Gjon), trying to be politically "unbiased" (he doesn't want to be unwanted in Albania, I suppose). Therefore he cannot be helpful on that. -- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:41, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Xhfgsepfiuh, apart from your account being a wp:SPA, your comments are veering toward WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS in your views about "at least a dozen of other articles" on pagemoves. Your edits here are sophisticated. @Xhfgsepfiuh, are you a returning editor or a new editor? Resnjari ( talk) 06:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Request has been struck, rendering the request void; no consensus. No prejudice towards users in good standing who wish to re-initiate a simpler request. wbm1058 ( talk) 02:36, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
– Current names of these articles do not comply with the
WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. They are a fruit of the 19th and 20th-century romanticist writings by the Albanian National Awakening authors and are therefore not grounded in science nor the testified historical documentation (See past discussion
[20]).
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
07:14, 28 June 2018 (UTC) --> Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
Encyclopedia Britanica, printed edition, 1959, vol. 20, p. 726, artcl "Skanderbeg or George Castriota": "... The founder of the family Castriota was a certain Branilo, ... and whose grandson Giovanni, lord of Mat ... married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate." "Giovanni" is not english, but is neutral and historically correct, as it was used at G.Castrioti's time in official correspondence. It could possibly used here as a safe alternative, with a note that is used by Encyclop. Britanica. I want also to remind that the Albanian and other versions of the name will not vanish from the article. It will be stated in the first line that the name is written such and such in various languages and sources.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britanica online: "Skanderbeg, byname of George Kastrioti, or Castriota, Albanian Gjergj Kastrioti, (born 1405, northern Albania—died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania), national hero of the Albanians. A son of John (Gjon) Kastrioti ...". In this particular case, I think we should rely more on Encycl.Br. than on any Albanian author who writes in english, or the albanophile site of Mr. Elsie.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 06:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Compare with John Chrysostom, who was writing only in Greek, and is mentioned and venerated mostly by Greeks, but nobody demands that english WP calls him "Ioannes". Of course, Albanian WP calls him Gjoni Gojarti, and this is fine.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 11:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Note: If I am not mistaken, in these discussions, arguments count, not votes. Additional "votes" from WikiProjectAlbania do not add credibility to the same recycled arguments.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
a proposal that no one supports. AjaxSmack supports a move of Gjon Kastrioti to John Castriot(a) and repeated their position presenting valid arguments. This is a discussion. The editor who made initial proposal and other editors are entitled to discuss the proposal and reach consensus, even if the consensus will be different then initial proposal (here, in case of some of three RM proposals). That does not mean that initial proposal has to be withrawn and new proposal started.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:38, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
This proposal was three-in-one, and difficult to deal with. I think we should take the articles one by one. First: Gjon Castrioti > John Castrioti, then Skanderbeg --> George Castrioti/Kastriota/Castriota Skanderbegand, and then the obscure Gjon Muzaka > Giovanni Musacchi (as he signed). Btw, the latter can be confused with the Greek dish Musaka. The above discussion is not wasted. Some arguments can be copy-pasted to the new one. In the meanwhile, Τζερόνυμο can advertise the case to the rest of Eastern Mediterranean.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 22:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 18 July 2018. The result of the move review was endorse. |
Not moved. Both names are permissible, but there is a clear absence of consensus for the proposed move at this time. bd2412 T 03:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Gjon Kastrioti → John Castriot – per WP:COMMONNAMES and WP:UE (use English). The forename Gjon appears to be a neologism and is less common than John. See this Google Ngram for comparison in print sources — AjaxSmack 17:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
In which case, "Ivan" is fine, because is used by Oliver Schmitt.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 13:05, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but I am not going to do a doctoral research on the political use of the Skanderbeg mythology in Albania. There are several articles on that, and some can be found as references in Skanderbeg and eleswhere. I am talking to users who know and mind. If however, the discussion will be reduced to counting "hits" in the google, I am not going to waste my time fighting against the "Allies". In the Greek WP, a single administrator imposed the name Γκιον in the title (only in the title), which is not to be found in any greek text ever, old or new. This is how it works.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:29, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
include sources since BoT(Beginning of Time)and
not the latest literature, both of which are factually wrong. Your comment
would we examine medieval literature as well ... and compare them with modern literatureis close to being hostile. And then
Your method of research seems biased in favor of outdated material.My "method of research" has faithfully examined every Scholar hit and Books hit from 1950 till today. Where is the bias? And to your very last comment: I have considered the last 10 or 20 years, as you will see if you read my post. Could you now stop your misrepresentation of my comments and keep to the case in question. -- T*U ( talk) 17:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
References
Emri Gjon ishte aq tepër i përhapur në mbarë trevat shqiptare sa atë e morën me vete dhe banorët e viseve të jugut, të cilët gjatë shek. XIV dhe XV mërguan në viset e Greqisë kontinentale dhe ishullore. Emrin Gjon e mbanin deri vonë, ndoshta edhe sot, arvanitët si për shembull në ishullin Hidra
A user with no contributions to this page recently moved it to "John of Castriot", falsely claiming this is how he is referred to in English. This is demonstrably not only false, but patently absurd. See Google Scholar: [ [36]]. Admin help in reverting this is requested.-- Calthinus ( talk) 15:35, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The LEAD says that John Kastrioti was "Albanian", on two sources. The one is dated 1978 and the other 1899 (!). No page is indicated on the later. Today I added two other sources, claiming that the man was Greek. The one is dated 2017 Jayoung Che, "The Socio-political Meanings of the Conflict between the Muslims and the Christians around the Western Balkan in the 15th Century", Athens Journal of History, Vol. 3, Issue 4, October 2017, p. 300 and the other 1968 Demus John, "Conferences and studies on Skanderbeg : in Albania", Balkan Studies Vol 9, No 2 (1968), p. 493. The "patrol" deleted this info and both sources, commending only on the one that is "outdated". Does anyone else see the Albanian national POV here? And one more question: If we accept a 1899 source claiming (if it will be veryfied) that he was Albanian, why not some more sources of the same period claiming that he was Serbian? Thanks.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, actually the one source after the "Albanian" claim, in Russian language, doesn't say that he was Albanian. At least not in the quoted phrase. The other, of 1899, i will check. The two users who guard the Albanian national myths in WP are edit warring (and will be reported) and erase the other views as "fringe". Still they are invited here to explain their edits.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
One book says that gjon did not die as johachim but was poisoned by ottoman sultans https://books.google.com/books?id=pgf6GWJxuZgC&pg=PA76&dq=however,+shows+that+he+was+poisoned+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi78MreuvrhAhVphq0KHcREDe0Q6AEIJjAA Gjondeda 13:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Was he there? Two books say he was there !!.. https://books.google.com/books?id=NYsMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=yfXxuDaWNi&sig=ACfU3U0Pdi-kx1lR1AzM3oMxfuTtXleHug&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=bsyCCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=hfx-6llyfV&sig=ACfU3U0uWl-GpxUFmBRNg1HgrqIw9rC7PQ&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hioiim ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
1. Ludwig von Thallóczy and Konstantin Jireček state that the name of Ivan Kastriota in contemporaneous documents is Iuanus (Ivan!) and not the albanized form Gjon:
Ivan Kastriota, Iuanus Castrioti der Zeitgenossen, ist aus dem Urkundenmaterial dieser Zeit gut bekannt.
— Ludwig von Thallóczy, Konstantin Jireček, "Zwei Urkunden aus Nordalbanien", Archiv für slavische Philologie (1899), Vol. 21, p. 88 [1]
2. In a rather harsh critic to Athanase Gegaj and his book L'Albanie et l'Invasion turque au XV-e siècle, François Pall supports Nicolae Iorga and states that the name Ivan is used to refer to Ivan Kastriota in Ragusan and Venetian documents, as well as by the Byzantine historian Laonikos Chalkokondyles:
Ce n'est pas M. Iorga seul qui „attribue“ (ibid) le nom d'„Ivan“ au père de Scanderbeg, ce sont également les documents vénitiens et ragusains (Iuanus; voy un exemple chez M. Gegaj même, p. 40, note 2), aussi bien que Chalkokandyles...
— François Pall, "Une nouvelle histoire de Scanderbeg (Remarques sur le livre de M. Gegaj)", Revue historique du Sud-Est européen (1937), Vol. 14, p. 298 [2]
3. Bogumil Hrabak in one of his studies reiterates the same and states that the name Ivan was the only name by which Ivan Kastriota was recorded:
Gospodar Šufadaja bio je Ivan Kastriot (koji se kao Ivan uvek beleži)...
— Bogumil Hrabak, "Širenje arbanaških stočara po ravnicama i slovenski ratari srednjovekovne Albanije", Stanovništvo slovenskog porijekla u Albaniji (1990) [3]
4. Oliver Jens Schmitt states that when the Ottomans arrived in Albania, that they gave names to the local landscapes after their former masters, which in Ivan Kastriota's case is Yuvan-ili, after his first name Ivan or Jovan:
Die Osmanen bekundeten ohnehin keine Berührungsängste mit den vorosmanischen Zuständen; sie benannten die meisten Landschaften nach ihren früheren Herren, das Balšaland (Balşa-ili) zwischen dem späteren Ort Kavaja und der Shkumbinmündung, Jonima-Land (nördlich des heutigen Peqin), das Land des Pavlo-Kurtik, des Kondo-Miho und des Bogdan Ripe (alles sonst unbekannte Kleinhenen mit typisch orthodoxen Namen) um den Fluss Shkumbin, Ashtin-ili um Permeti, Zenebish-ili um Gjirokastra, im Norden schließlich auch Jovans Land (Yuvan-ili, das Gebiet von Skanderbegs Vater Ivan oder Jovan Kastriota).
— Oliver Jens Schmitt, Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan (2009), p. 24
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
06:23, 8 May 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
The encyclopedicity of the names is in that a user may find a form of the name in various texts, other than albanian made. No serious source and archival source mentions any "Gjon Kastrioti", and so the door is open for missunderstandings. This is the use of WP. Btw, we should start a discussion on the conformity of the present title to the WP rules.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Many articles have a "name" section, including Skanderbeg. Some have a very extensive serction, like Arianiti family. I have more on the name, as it was used by authors as an indication of origin, therefore encyclopedic.
P.S. Commending on users is prohibited by WP, and cannot substitute arguments on the point.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, text should not be duplicated. Also, large pieces of text, other than quotations, are not suppposed to be in the notes.
Personal interpretations of "concensus" are welcome, but we don't have to aggree on them. If a line has been untouched for years, this doesn't necessarily mean concensus. Articles have to be improved.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 07:55, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually, the title of the article, per se, is a bias towards the albanian POV, but let it be. Trying to suppress the info about the name in a footnote, is too much.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhb4SaECGbk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sbh7jj150
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
15:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC) Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
What I see in this talk page, is a confused mixture of two different discussions combined with lots of personal comments and accusations and spiced with edit warring in the article. The result is completely useless. Could we please take a time-out now and try to be constructive? We need to sort out two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.
Regarding the title, it has to be solved through a requested move. There was a RM some years ago about moving it to "John Castriot". The result was "no consensus", and the page was not moved. Any new attempt to move the page will have to go through the same procedure. There is no other way.
The other question, whether the presentation of names should be made through a note or through a separate "Name" section, would normally be possible to solve through an ordinary talk page discussion, but seeing the temperature of this discussion, I would strongly advice to use a request for comments. It takes time, but the benefits are large: More people would participate (for example those of us who are shunning the current discussion because of the heated tone). Also, it would be possible to close the discussion with a formal consensus, thus avoiding more disruptive debates at least for a while.
The current consensus is to present the names as a note. Yes, that's right: When the introduction of the note some years ago has been unchallenged since, it is defined as a consensus. But consensus can change. Given the temperature here, I see no better way to define the current consensus than to open a RfC.
I suggest that the current discussion is closed immediately and that we start from scratch with the two discussions. And please: WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and all that. This discussion has gone too far off the mark. -- T*U ( talk) 18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
We need to sort out two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.
— User:TU-nor 18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
But there are two different discussions. A change of an article title in Wikipedia is actually a page move, and it requires a consensus for moving. Since the current title is/was decided through a requested move, the only way to do a change is through a new move request. Please note that the article title is usually governed by the Wikipedia guideline WP:COMMONNAME, not by the "official name" or the "authentic name" (whatever that means).
— User:TU-nor 09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Whatever name the article ends up with, I hope you will not disagree that other name forms have to be mentioned in the article. Currently they are mentioned in a note, but some editors want it to be presented in a "Name" section, as is done in many other articles. That is another discussion, regardless of the article title.
— User:TU-nor 09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Ιn the english WP, we don't have to look for the "authentic" name for the title, but the one used in english. The really authentic name is either in greek (Ιβάνης/Ιωάννης Καστριώτης, as written in his contemporary chronographers) or latin, or possibly slavonic. There are no primary sources in albanian about him. An albanian form of name that appeared in the 20th c. can be in the first lines of the LEAD, not in the title. Oliver Schmitt calls him with various forms of the name (including Ivan and Gjon), trying to be politically "unbiased" (he doesn't want to be unwanted in Albania, I suppose). Therefore he cannot be helpful on that. -- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:41, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Xhfgsepfiuh, apart from your account being a wp:SPA, your comments are veering toward WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS in your views about "at least a dozen of other articles" on pagemoves. Your edits here are sophisticated. @Xhfgsepfiuh, are you a returning editor or a new editor? Resnjari ( talk) 06:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Request has been struck, rendering the request void; no consensus. No prejudice towards users in good standing who wish to re-initiate a simpler request. wbm1058 ( talk) 02:36, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
– Current names of these articles do not comply with the
WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. They are a fruit of the 19th and 20th-century romanticist writings by the Albanian National Awakening authors and are therefore not grounded in science nor the testified historical documentation (See past discussion
[20]).
Xhfgsepfiuh (
talk)
07:14, 28 June 2018 (UTC) --> Blocked sock:
Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar.
Encyclopedia Britanica, printed edition, 1959, vol. 20, p. 726, artcl "Skanderbeg or George Castriota": "... The founder of the family Castriota was a certain Branilo, ... and whose grandson Giovanni, lord of Mat ... married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate." "Giovanni" is not english, but is neutral and historically correct, as it was used at G.Castrioti's time in official correspondence. It could possibly used here as a safe alternative, with a note that is used by Encyclop. Britanica. I want also to remind that the Albanian and other versions of the name will not vanish from the article. It will be stated in the first line that the name is written such and such in various languages and sources.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britanica online: "Skanderbeg, byname of George Kastrioti, or Castriota, Albanian Gjergj Kastrioti, (born 1405, northern Albania—died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania), national hero of the Albanians. A son of John (Gjon) Kastrioti ...". In this particular case, I think we should rely more on Encycl.Br. than on any Albanian author who writes in english, or the albanophile site of Mr. Elsie.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 06:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Compare with John Chrysostom, who was writing only in Greek, and is mentioned and venerated mostly by Greeks, but nobody demands that english WP calls him "Ioannes". Of course, Albanian WP calls him Gjoni Gojarti, and this is fine.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 11:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Note: If I am not mistaken, in these discussions, arguments count, not votes. Additional "votes" from WikiProjectAlbania do not add credibility to the same recycled arguments.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
a proposal that no one supports. AjaxSmack supports a move of Gjon Kastrioti to John Castriot(a) and repeated their position presenting valid arguments. This is a discussion. The editor who made initial proposal and other editors are entitled to discuss the proposal and reach consensus, even if the consensus will be different then initial proposal (here, in case of some of three RM proposals). That does not mean that initial proposal has to be withrawn and new proposal started.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:38, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
This proposal was three-in-one, and difficult to deal with. I think we should take the articles one by one. First: Gjon Castrioti > John Castrioti, then Skanderbeg --> George Castrioti/Kastriota/Castriota Skanderbegand, and then the obscure Gjon Muzaka > Giovanni Musacchi (as he signed). Btw, the latter can be confused with the Greek dish Musaka. The above discussion is not wasted. Some arguments can be copy-pasted to the new one. In the meanwhile, Τζερόνυμο can advertise the case to the rest of Eastern Mediterranean.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 22:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 18 July 2018. The result of the move review was endorse. |
Not moved. Both names are permissible, but there is a clear absence of consensus for the proposed move at this time. bd2412 T 03:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Gjon Kastrioti → John Castriot – per WP:COMMONNAMES and WP:UE (use English). The forename Gjon appears to be a neologism and is less common than John. See this Google Ngram for comparison in print sources — AjaxSmack 17:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
In which case, "Ivan" is fine, because is used by Oliver Schmitt.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 13:05, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, but I am not going to do a doctoral research on the political use of the Skanderbeg mythology in Albania. There are several articles on that, and some can be found as references in Skanderbeg and eleswhere. I am talking to users who know and mind. If however, the discussion will be reduced to counting "hits" in the google, I am not going to waste my time fighting against the "Allies". In the Greek WP, a single administrator imposed the name Γκιον in the title (only in the title), which is not to be found in any greek text ever, old or new. This is how it works.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 10:29, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
include sources since BoT(Beginning of Time)and
not the latest literature, both of which are factually wrong. Your comment
would we examine medieval literature as well ... and compare them with modern literatureis close to being hostile. And then
Your method of research seems biased in favor of outdated material.My "method of research" has faithfully examined every Scholar hit and Books hit from 1950 till today. Where is the bias? And to your very last comment: I have considered the last 10 or 20 years, as you will see if you read my post. Could you now stop your misrepresentation of my comments and keep to the case in question. -- T*U ( talk) 17:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
References
Emri Gjon ishte aq tepër i përhapur në mbarë trevat shqiptare sa atë e morën me vete dhe banorët e viseve të jugut, të cilët gjatë shek. XIV dhe XV mërguan në viset e Greqisë kontinentale dhe ishullore. Emrin Gjon e mbanin deri vonë, ndoshta edhe sot, arvanitët si për shembull në ishullin Hidra
A user with no contributions to this page recently moved it to "John of Castriot", falsely claiming this is how he is referred to in English. This is demonstrably not only false, but patently absurd. See Google Scholar: [ [36]]. Admin help in reverting this is requested.-- Calthinus ( talk) 15:35, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The LEAD says that John Kastrioti was "Albanian", on two sources. The one is dated 1978 and the other 1899 (!). No page is indicated on the later. Today I added two other sources, claiming that the man was Greek. The one is dated 2017 Jayoung Che, "The Socio-political Meanings of the Conflict between the Muslims and the Christians around the Western Balkan in the 15th Century", Athens Journal of History, Vol. 3, Issue 4, October 2017, p. 300 and the other 1968 Demus John, "Conferences and studies on Skanderbeg : in Albania", Balkan Studies Vol 9, No 2 (1968), p. 493. The "patrol" deleted this info and both sources, commending only on the one that is "outdated". Does anyone else see the Albanian national POV here? And one more question: If we accept a 1899 source claiming (if it will be veryfied) that he was Albanian, why not some more sources of the same period claiming that he was Serbian? Thanks.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, actually the one source after the "Albanian" claim, in Russian language, doesn't say that he was Albanian. At least not in the quoted phrase. The other, of 1899, i will check. The two users who guard the Albanian national myths in WP are edit warring (and will be reported) and erase the other views as "fringe". Still they are invited here to explain their edits.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
One book says that gjon did not die as johachim but was poisoned by ottoman sultans https://books.google.com/books?id=pgf6GWJxuZgC&pg=PA76&dq=however,+shows+that+he+was+poisoned+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi78MreuvrhAhVphq0KHcREDe0Q6AEIJjAA Gjondeda 13:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Was he there? Two books say he was there !!.. https://books.google.com/books?id=NYsMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=yfXxuDaWNi&sig=ACfU3U0Pdi-kx1lR1AzM3oMxfuTtXleHug&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=bsyCCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=hfx-6llyfV&sig=ACfU3U0uWl-GpxUFmBRNg1HgrqIw9rC7PQ&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hioiim ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC)