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A RfC has been repeatedly mentioned. I don't think it has been requested yet. Should we? In that case, should we agree on the approach? (one of us includes it, Atama includes it, ...; scope of the RfC; other details...) Or should one of us just go ahead? What do you think? Thanks. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 15:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article. -- Atama 頭 17:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Ecemaml
User:Cremallera
User:Imalbornoz
User:Gibnews
User:Justin_A_Kuntz
Hi all, first of all, thank you for taking part in this Request for Comments. Atama's done a great job in the mediation but, as he points out, all of us have been inflexible enough to make a definite deal.
I'd like to set first the framework of this issue.
The disputed article talks about Gibraltar, a former British colony, now a British Overseas Territory, part of the European Union. However, there are no separate articles for the British entity and for the city (that is, the article deals with Gibraltar as a whole, not following, for instance, the approach of Taiwan and the Republic of China). A brief summary of the history of Gibraltar is as follows: Gibraltar was a Spanish town, captured to the Moors in the fifteenth century that become the head of an extensive municipal term (the Campo de Gibraltar) for two centuries and a half. It was captured in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession by a mainly Anglo-Dutch force on behalf of one of the claimants to the Spanish Throne, the Archduke Charles (a Habsburg). As a result of the takeover, the Spanish population of the city left it, settled down in different parts of the municipal term. In 1713, the town, yet occupied, was ceded to Great Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht. In 1713, the history of British Gibraltar formally begun (I focus on this issue since one of the recurrent arguments are that "Gibraltar is not Spain"; well, Gibraltar "was" Spain for two centuries and a half and only was only de iure British since 1713). Therefore, talking about the Spanish period of Gibraltar is perfectly valid. Doing it otherwise would be a evident POV.
The disputed section deals with the capture of Gibraltar in 1704 and the destiny of its population. It's has been argued that once the town was captured (I remember, on behalf of a claimant Spain king) nothing that happens outside the walls of the town (again, I remember that Gibraltar was an extensive municipality in 1704 and remained so, at least formally, until 1713; what nowadays is Gibraltar is of course nothing more than the town) is relevant to the article (there is a graphic statement in [here]: " The main thing to know is the Spanish lost, left and are never coming back"). There has been a long mediation process handled by Atama on the way to describe the capture. Though not confortable with the final result, Cremallera, Imalbornoz and me have agreed to accept a compromise with the text. However, there has been no compromise in how to deal with what happened with the Gibraltar population once they left the city.
My first approach was simply using reliable secondary sources to assess the best way to deal with it. You can see a survey of secondary texts in here (yes, I'll remove extensive quotations once this issue is settled). Mind that only English-speaking bibliography (although it could suffer from systemic bias, I've preferred to use it to avoid any propaganda suspicion). However, if you take the effort to read them (they're just four excerpts), you'll see the following: the Gibraltar population left the head of the municipal term (the very town of Gibraltar) and scattered through the municipal term, but mainly in San Roque (you'll notice phrases such as "the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque" or "Most Catholics (..) transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque").
The important issue here is that all historians of Gibraltar mentions San Roque (and acknowledge that it was the main settlement of the Gibraltar refugees). That is, the movement of mostly of the population of Gibraltar to San Roque is something that is unanimous and extensively described by any secondary sources dealing with the issue (not to talk of Spanish bibliography). That is outside any doubt. That is, as long as Wikipedia principles with regard to original research are concerned, it's factually accurate and supported by any relevant source to ask for the mention of San Roque in this stage of the history of Gibraltar (remember, we're talking about Gibraltar as a whole).
There is an extra point to defend the relevancy of San Roque to the history of Gibraltar. San Roque establised itself as the "continuation" of Gibraltar (as it kept its historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council...). And it did it in the Gibraltar municipal term, taking over the whole of the Gibraltar municipal term. That status was formally recognized in 1706, when the status of the town of Gibraltar was still dubious (it was not British until 1713). Mind also that the status of San Roque was not recognized until the failure of the contrasiege laid by Spanish and French troops in 174-1705 (in which Gibraltar inhabitants took part, see Simón Susarte). It can be argued that the Gibraltar population left the town in many occasions (that's right and should be mentioned), but this time is the first (and only) time in the history of Gibraltar that the regufees keep a vivid (and legal) memory of its roots and its relationship to the lost town.
The current version of the Gibraltar article does not mention (of course only in the section related to the history of Gibraltar, again, not the history of British Gibraltar) anything about the Spanish municipality of Gibraltar (its Campo). It does not mention San Roque. It does not mention its standard, its coat of arms, the motto granted by Philip V ("My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo."). Not mentioning the latter information might be right (as it's mostly relevant to San Roque in itself). But not mentioning the former (that most of the Spanish population of Gibraltar settled down in San Roque) is, IMHO, a blatant POV.
There is a question that should not be forgotten. The fact that Spain actively claims Gibratar to be transferred back to Spain. Spain's pressure during the Franco's dictatorship went further as closing the communication with Gibraltar, which caused a extraordinary suffering to Gibraltarians. It possibly contaminates all discussions related to Gibraltar. When during the Franco's dictatorship, the dictator tried to twist the Gibraltarians hand (he didn't treat their own citizens much better), one of the arguments that the dictatorship used was that the population of Gibraltar was allegedly "artificially planned" to the prejudice of the original population which "had been expelled". Moreover, when the Gibraltar question was analyzed by the UN Committee on Decolonization in 1964, the mayor (a Francoist official) of San Roque was given a hearing as a representative of the 'Town of San Roque where the most noble and loyal city of Gibraltar dwells' (that's only a translation of the San Roque's motto). He described San Roque as the direct continuator of the old town of Gibraltar, occupied by the English, having been established by the original and real Gibraltarians ['gibraltareños' in the original text] and to its inhabitants as the descendants of the original and real Gibratarians [same comment] or the legitimate Gibraltarians [same comment]. Gibraltarians are described as the current population of Gibraltar. I understand that Franco's statements (about real and not real Gibraltarians) deeply hurt Gibraltarians. However, IMHO, only because a fact is malliciously used it does not mean that such a fact must be hidden as long as it is accurately described, without introducing assessments (remember NPOV summary: " Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves").
Finally, with regard to "undue balance", at the moment, the section on history is 135-line long (cutting and pasting the text in a standart word processor). The section devoted to the "Spanish" and Habsburg Gibraltar is 12 + 12-line long (12 in the section named "The Spanish period" and 12 in the opening section named "The British period", which should be renamed to "The Habsburg period", as most of the historians do; otherwise is a new POV). What I'm proposing (see below) add just three lines to the overall text. Mind also that most of what is listed in the section "The Spanish period" is a minor incident that is not recorded by most of the historians dealing with the History of Gibraltar. Nothing is said, however, about the royal donation to the town of Gibraltar to establish its municipal term, for instance.
To sum up (and thank you if you're reached this point), I can't see any valid reason to hide the fact that most of the Gibraltar population that left the town in 1704 established in what nowadays is San Roque, as long as such a mention is included in the proper place, the section on history dealing with this period of time. I'm not proposing a paragraph, only one sentence (in bold the text currently in the article):
“ | By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Most of them took refuge around the hill of San Roque, inside the municipality of Gibraltar, and created a settlement which would later become the town of San Roque and be granted the arms and constitution of Gibraltar. | ” |
Besides, I'm proposing that the first two paragraphs in "The British period" (including my proposals) are set in a section named "The Habsburg period".
Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 18:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Some of the above statements are not entirely correct, in fact I would go so far to state that it is actually disingenuous.
One side of this dispute has been flexible, they have pointed out that the detail of the mention of San Roque belongs in the article History of Gibraltar, whereas this article being more general and an overview, then details of the ultimate destination of the people who left in 1704 is not suitable. The other side insists absolutely it must be mentioned, with additional details and have not been prepared to compromise on that.
The problem with this article is that it is already too long by wikipedia standards. Before this dispute blew up, we were in the process of reducing its size. Hence, we are reluctant to add significant additional detail. As this is an overview article we cannot cover every single aspect of what happened and in summarising the events we have to prune some facts. The people who left in 1704 played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any consequences to their movement and so the details of what happened to them is not necessary for this article. A reader who wishes to know more can simply look at the greater detail on the History of Gibraltar.
Now this position has been explained but the dispute has gotten somewhat bad tempered, with accusations of bias, suppression of the truth, or even vetoing any mention of San Roque; clearly a false accusation since we suggest not unreasonably that it be mentioned on the history article.
I am rather glad that Ecemaml has mentioned in balance a rather nasty and racist aspect of the Spanish claim, that the populace of Gibraltar are not the "real" Gibraltarians but merely implanted colonists whose views are of no consequence. It should also be mentioned in the interests of full disclosure that this extreme Spanish nationalist viewpoint has been espoused off-wiki by one of the protagonists pushing for this proposal (though he does now disown them).
To single out San Roque is also inaccurate, since as noted in Sir William Jackson's Rock of the Gibraltarians the population dispersed in the Campo de Gibraltar seeking temporary homes, with some travelling as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga. The fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras. The most important settlement was established around the Hermitage of San Roque, which, in 1706 Philip V addressed as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo." The city council, banner, and records were moved there, and San Roque become Spanish Gibraltar as the Rock was gradually transformed into British Gibraltar.
So whilst San Roque was one of the main settlements it was not the only one. Further the details belong in the article on San Roque but not necessarily here.
Now a compromise was suggested that mentioned the population left for nearby areas of Spain, wikilinked to the Campo de Gibraltar. This was previously rejected out of hand because it didn't mention San Roque.
So I would suggest the compromise we put forward of mentioning the Campo de Gibraltar and leaving the details for the History of Gibraltar, facts relevant to San Roque are already mentioned in San Roque, Cadiz. It provides due coverage in what is an overview article, wikilinks to find more general information and the two articles History of Gibraltar and San Roque, Cadiz provide the details. This provides the coverage that apparently people desire, without overburdening this article with details of nearby Spanish towns.
One final request, can we please avoid flooding the talk page with contentious argument to avoid smothering any discussion by the none involved. Justin talk 22:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
It's interesting the way to approach the issue by Justin, I must admit. I could go point by point but it would be too verbose, so I'll try to focus on the key elements of his statement. Most of it is simply a set of provocations and slanders towards the rest of participants of this RfC. I won't play that game, although I could (for example, one of the parties is the one that has been openly described as POV editor, and not by the other party). I'm not particularly interested in these role-playing aspects of wikipedia. I'm here to write good articles.
I'd focus, however, in specific statements:
Here you have my proposal, stripping most of the "details"
“ | By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Most of them settled nearby, in which later become the town of San Roque. Others in Algeciras an Los Barrios. | ” |
Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
“ On 7 August a dejected procession filed out of the Land Port with Queen Isabella's banner at their head, followed by the city council, the garrison with their three brass cannon, the religious orders, and all the inhabitants who did not wish to take the oath of allegiance to Charles III. Some four thousand people left the city; only about seventy of the original Spanish inhabitants took the risk of staying behind in the town that at the time had twelve hundred dwellings. (..) Then they disperses into the Campo seeking temporary homes. One of the leading city councillors offered to keep Isabella's banner and the city records in this country house. Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia. But the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque, which, in 1706 Philip V addressed as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo." The city council, banner, and records were moved there, and San Roque become Spanish Gibraltar as the Rock was gradually transformed into British Gibraltar. ”
Just to comment on one aspect of the logic claimed for this proposal, that many authors of historical texts mention San Roque, yes they do. I'm sure reams of citations will be produced for that. However, the logic that because authors mention it in history books it must be inserted in this article is flawed. If we're obliged to mention every single fact that an author deems relevant, we could never have a short article. Noticeably other encyclopedias don't feel the need to mention it [1]. Justin talk 22:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Pfainuk, nice to see you here again. I thought that opinions from uninvolved people was requested, but anyway, your comments are welcome. I've already asked Justin on your statement about that only events with "significant practical impact on the later history of Gibraltar" (in the best case it leads to recentism, in the worst to POV, as the most recent period, the British, would be privileged) must be mentioned. Following your approach I assume that Neanderthals, Tariq ibn Ziyad, the Battle of Gibraltar, the Archduke Charles, the Battle of Gibraltar, the operation Felix or [[Władysław Sikorski] should not be mentioned at all. It's strange that such removals hadn't been suggested in the past.
On the other hand, your statement ("particularly if, as Justin suggests, San Roque was not the primary destination for the former townspeople of Gibraltar") is surprising. I didn't thought Justin was a reliable secondary source. Unfortunately, what Justin "suggests" is simply untrue. Let's see:
“ | Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia. But the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque (..) | ” |
“ | Most Catholics, perhaps 1,500 families, maybe 5,000–6,000 people, transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque | ” |
Unfortunately, as the historians on the topic suggest San Roque was the primary destination for the former townspeople of Gibraltar. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
This article reviews, albeit briefly, most of Gibraltar's history in the appropriate section. The territory has been inhabited since the Stone Age, later populated by the phoenicians, carthaginians and Vandals; it has been part of muslim iberia until conquered by the Kingdom of Castile following the Reconquista, and of Spain since the establishment of the Spanish Crown in 1479, until its cession in 1713. In 1704 it was captured by Anglo-Dutch troops on behalf of the austriacist side of the War of the Spanish Succession, and its population fled from the town, but not from the township, to settle down mostly in the Saint Roch's shrine nearby. Franco-Spanish troops tried to recapture the fortress between 1704 and 1705, eventually lifting up the siege. At this point, in 1706, King Philip V of Spain granted the aforementioned settlement the status of "city". The Crown of Great Britain obtained Gibraltar in 1713, by the means of the Treaty of Utrecht.
All this (and much more) is covered in the history section of the article, except the foundation of the neighbouring town of San Roque as a direct consequence of the 1704 capture. Not every existing municipality can claim to be cause of the foundation of another city. Neither historian disregards this connection in the works concerning Gibraltar's history. You can read some related excerpts of the following books "Rock of the Gibraltarians", "Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar" and "Gibraltar. A History" (written by Sir William Jackson, George Hills, and Maurice Harvey respectively) here. Allen Andrews' "Proud Fortress. The Fighting Story Of Gibraltar" alludes to this incident too, and so does Ayala's "Historia de Gibraltar" (in Spanish, and being quoted as a source by the historians mentioned above) here. I'd like to add that all those unanimous reliable sources constitute the framework by which we understand this particular piece of history, and therefore should be the main criterion to assign objective relevance values to that information, as opposed to some editors' very respectable opinions. And I've used this argument before. Justin, above, anticipates this and states:
And thanks for reading it all! Cheers. Cremallera ( talk) 16:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Atama, I have nothing more to say that what the policy states: secondary sources are preferred to tertiary ones. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
All the historians that have been cited as sources for the History section in the Gibraltar article (most of them English) have considered the following to be relevant enough to be mentioned in their books: Almost all the population of Gibraltar left their village on 7 August 1704, and most of them settled around the chapel of San Roque (6.5 kilometers away from the Rock). Most of these historians also mention that this settlement became permanent and was granted the status of "city" two years later when it was considered as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo" by the then King of Spain, keeping the public records, the standard, etc of the town of Gibraltar. The article currently does not mention San Roque as the final destination of most inhabitants of Gibraltar after their departure in 1704. Some editors argue that the article is already too long and "San Roque" is not relevant enough to be mentioned in the History section of the Gibraltar article.
On the other hand, these same editors are happy to include in the article many other issues which most sources don't consider relevant enough to be mentioned in their books. For example, only three paragraphs above the capture of Gibraltar [3], the article describes that some Sephardim left for "Cordoba" after a stay of only a couple of years in Gibraltar.
If we are going to judge the relevance of events according to their being mentioned by secondary sources, the "San Roque" episode should be considered more relevant than the "Cordoba" episode -for example- and also many other events that have much less coverage in secondary sources than San Roque. Therefore, I think that excluding "San Roque" from the Gibraltar article is not justified.
I have my own opinion about the relevance of "San Roque" in the history of Gibraltar (I honestly think that the fact that the biggest part of previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled down only 6.5 km from their old homes after the capture of the Rock, and stayed there to found a city keeping historical continuity with the old town of Gibraltar is very relevant). But probably it should not be my opinion which counts, but the relative coverage in secondary sources of this event vis a vis other episodes that are indeed mentioned in the article. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 18:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
For your info:
“ | But this time the civilian population’s concerns for their safety under British control were compounded by not unreasonable fears of mistreatment by Protestant troops. Most Catholics, perhaps 1,500 families, maybe 5,000–6,000 people, transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque.[note 9]. [note 9]: Caruana, Cloud, p. 6, suggests a total population before the siege of about 6,000, whereas Hills, Rock, pp. 176–7, estimates a civilian population of 4,000–5,000. |
” |
You're welcome. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC) PS: on the other hand, where does your weird statement "significant chunk of the population settled in Algeciras, Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga" comes from? None of the sources (but you, and you're not a source) talks about "significant chunks"
Any chance we can move the comments by outside parties to a separate section? The extended arguments by participants are making the comments that you've requested difficult to spot. Don't want to do it myself without consensus that it's fair enough since it's a little close to editing others' comments, but I think it would be useful... Pfainuk talk 18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
( ←) How would you all prefer this to be structured? I agree that some comments can be lost in this discussion with the long statements and back-and-forth between disputants. I had considered creating a subpage, like Talk:Gibraltar/RFC Statements and moving the statements there, but then I wasn't sure whether the responses to the statements should also be moved because some of the comments from outside participants are replies to those statements. But leaving the responses without the statements would remove the context and make it more difficult to understand the comments.
What about collapsing the statements? Anyone who wants to read them can expand them to do so, but when not expanded the RFC section would be much smaller. How does that sound? -- Atama 頭 23:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] The bottom line is that all the information about what happened at that time is unreliable, most of the histories simply quote what others have written, but changing the wording slightly. The only important thing is that the Spanish inhabitants left and since then Gibraltar has developed and prospered. That is what the article should be focused on and not what happens in San Roque as that has an article of its own which has grown from a simple whinge about 1704 to something more useful. -- Gibnews ( talk) 00:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, I've changed the phrasing of the mention to this extraordinarily relevant report.
There are two main reasons. The first one is that it's misleading in the sense that it suggests it has taken one year to analyze Gibraltar. The second and most important is that the report is only about "risk" and not about "prosperity". The source of the mistake is not in the wikipedist that included the text but in the source, which takes some "literary" licenses when describing the report. The Times talks about the most stable and "prosperous" nations. However, when other news agencies talk about this report, only mentions "stability" and not prosperity. See Reuters and UPI. Furthermore, if you go to the original source (that is, Jane's and its parent company, IHS), they talk only about stability (see press release by Jane's, description by Jane's and explicit mentions to Gibraltar in IHS press release and report summary). -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
What seems definitely worthless is wasting our time in your ridiculous assessments. Let's see:
The Jane’s Country Risk Ratings measures the stability of all 235 country, territory and political entities in the world.
The ratings provide a holistic assessment of the various factors that affect stability. The service measures 24 factors across five fundamental categories—political, social, economic, external and military and security.
According to the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008, which measures the stability of 235 countries, territories and political entities in the world, Gibraltar is the 5th most stable territory worldwide, and the highest ranked British territory.
So, at the end, the one who's lying it's not me. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC) PS: how does your edition complies with your statements about about avoiding "excessive detail"? Double standard? Possibly yes.
After the edit war created when I allegedly tried to "make a point" including some Spaniards among the Gibraltar-born people, I have to recognize that this time Justin has surprised me once again, since I didn't expected him to start yet another edit war with no apparent justification. Let's see.
Unfortunately, I've got very familiar with Gibraltar-related issues, so, when I read the following text in the section on Demographics, something sounded very strange to me:
“ | By 1753 Genoese, Maltese, and Portuguese people formed the majority of this new population. Other groups include Minorcans (due to the links between both British possessions during the 18th century; immigration begun in that century and continued even after Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens [1] [2]) Sardinians, Sicilians and other Italians, French, Germans, and the British. | ” |
The first strange issue was the lack of mention to Jews in Gibraltar, as I know they were one of the main "nations" in 18th century Gibraltar. The second was the lack of mention to the Spaniards, as they has been for the whole history of British Gibraltar more than the Portuguese. The third, and even weirder, was the mention to Maltese people. It's widely known that Malta become a British territory in 1802 so it was impossible such a massive presence.
Well, in this point I could have included a {{ fact}} template. But it was not sensible, as I have the means to access the right information. I took one of my books (William Jackson (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (Second ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, United Kingdom: Gibraltar Books. ISBN 0-948466-14-6.) and looked for the information. It provided information about the 1753 census (I don't know which this specific date has been chosen) and got the following figures: British: 351; Genoese: 597; Jews: 575; Spaniards: 185; and Portuguese: 25; without further mentions to other nationalities. I was right (Maltese out; Jews and Spaniards in). So, I included the following text:
“ | By 1753 Genoese, Jews, British, Spanish and Portuguese people formed the majority of this new population. [3] | ” |
For me, it was simply a "routine" task (fixing an obvious mistake). To my surprise, Justin A Kuntz reverted my edition with a weird edition summary "happens to be sourced and correct, ask Imalabornoz who helped draft it on Demographics of Gibraltar". As I've shown, the paragraph was neither sourced nor correct (as I had verified data with a proper source; today I've double-checked it with other source and, as couldn't be otherwise, the same data is provided). So I reverted, explaining why ("your edition doesn't happen to have a source (Maltese stock in 1753? :-D). I have provided one (Jackson) and unless you provide a source on the 1753 census (I did) I needn't ask anyone"). Well, I thought it was solved, but unfortunately wasn't. New reversion by Justin, with a new and weird edition summary ("FFS will you stop edit warring over every fucking thing. IT IS SOURCED ON Demographics of Gibraltar"). Obvious to say that Demographics of Gibraltar does not talk about any census or similar information dated in 1753).
So, at the end, I wonder why this is happening. Is it because my text includes any banned word? Which one? Can we bet? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC) PS: this section is on the "disputed" text. The edit war is discussed here
Nice small talk, Justin, but the issue remains. Why do you insist in including false information in Wikipedia? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Your usual defamations, Gibnews. The most interesting thing is how you see a trouble in the most unsuspected editions. It's too boring. Can you provide any diff of your dubious statements? No, as usual. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Imalbornoz, your suggestion is pretty good. I can try, as the books I have are very good. However, the current statements are false. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, as you haven't been able to explain why you reverted my editions, I'll fix them again. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Although one can guess at the ethnic origins of people from names on the electoral roll, its misleading because of marriage, and eligibility. The term 'Spanish Gibraltarian' is an oxymoron as to be Gibraltarian one must be British, although it is possible to be British with dual nationality, Spain does not allow it. Its also a sweeping statement that the Spanish population left in 1704 - a good number came back which is why there are so many Spanish names in Gibraltar. Since Spain joined the EU there is nothing unusual about actual Spanish nationals living in Gibraltar and they are enumerated as such in the 2001 census. -- Gibnews ( talk) 23:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
The Rfc by Atama was: :Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article.
The subsequent debates do not seem to have settled a long-running discussion, which I suggest has too often become sidetracked by irrelevancies. I'd like to propose a week for consensus on the arguments - the arguments only, not the answer - for and against the proposal that something like the following comment should be included at the end of the first paragraph of the British period section of the Gibraltar article: "By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Many of them settled nearby, within the previous territory of Gibraltar, founding the town of San Roque, Cádiz. Others went to Algeciras and Los Barrios."
Comments are invited. I propose to edit them ruthlessly, removing in particular anything that I think is a personal comment or in any other way brings irrelevancies into the issue. I may put such comments into a separate section, but in any case the two subsections below will contain the briefest statement of the arguments that I can produce. In effect I will be taking ownership, for a week, of this section. If you don't like it, well, this is Wikipedia and you can edit as you wish. But if you can support this process for a week, keeping this section to relevant arguments with supporting links, we may hope to produce a brief consensus statement of the arguments. (Some will find some of these arguments tendentious or feeble or both, but please keep your opinion of the arguments out of this section until the 21st.) This in turn may help us to arrive at a reasonably courteous consensus on the issue.
(Numbered purely for convenience, no further implications intended)
1. The facts (as drafted above, hereinafter just "the facts") are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy.
2. The town of San Roque has, because of the facts, some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. It is within the former territory of the Campos de Gibraltar. Many of the previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled in San Roque, which kept Gibraltar's historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council. Thus it has some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. This is notable to both Spanish nationalists and Gibraltarians.
3. Gibraltar can claim the unusual distinction of having founded San Roque.
OK, thanks for your patience. Do we have any further comments on the arguments to be included, or is my summary tolerable? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Thanks Imalbornoz for doing the research. I'd rather not comment on your argument just now, but I hope we can all agree that it and the counter-arguments have been adequately summarized in my now-numbered list. I do have opinions on which arguments are relevant to our encyclopedic task, and which are of decisive importance. But before I express them I'd like to ask for a consensus that the arguments for and against inclusion are well-represented, and then for comments on which arguments should be excluded as not relevant to an encyclopedia, and which are of high importance. Before anyone starts on my biases, let me say that despite one grandfather born in the County Cork and another in Mumbai I'm British and nobody's ever questioned my patriotism. My Spanish is limited to what I picked up on a cycling trip in the Andes in 1984; the perra gorda, for example, was news to me and I can merely read Spanish with some difficulty. I will however do my very best to achieve a neutral point of view and I hope a consensus on the original issue. Please follow here with reasons why some of the numbered arguments are, or are not, relevant. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
(Numbered purely for convenience, no further implications intended)
1. The town of San Roque is no more than a fairly close neighbour of the modern British territory of Gibraltar, the actual subject of the article.
2. San Roque is described as the most important settlement to result only because the administrative functions were transferred there, but many of the residents dispersed elsewhere into the Campo de Gibraltar, founding Algeciras and San Roque, some going even farther afield.
3. The people who left Gibraltar played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any significant repercussions from their departure.
4. The article is too long already and the facts surrounding the founding of San Roque could be trimmed for brevity in what is an overview article. Other encyclopedias do not mention the facts.
5. The facts belong in the History of Gibraltar article not necessarily an overview article.
6. The facts are only notable to people who want Spain to have sovereignty over Gibraltar.
7. San Roque's claim to be the real Gibraltar is irrelevant to Gibraltarian, UK, or international law. Such claims can be offensive to Gibraltarians.
Your suggestion of legal and demographic continuity depends on a specific definition of "Gibraltar" based on the administrative divisions of Spain prior to 1713 (the Campo de Gibraltar). I would note that this is an article on the Town and British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar (generally now known as "Gibraltar" as opposed to the "Campo de Gibraltar"), ceded to the United Kingdom in 1713, and recognised as British territory by Spain.
This is an important point that I think a lot of people miss. Spain considers Gibraltar to be British territory. It disputes the location of the border and it disputes the extent of British sovereignty as regards territorial waters and airspace, but that's it. Spain fully accepts that Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory and is not part of the Campo de Gibraltar.
Under Spanish law, I believe there is legal continuity between the former administrative division of Gibraltar and the modern Campo de Gibraltar. But there is no legal continuity between the former administrative division of Gibraltar and the modern British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar (the subject of this article). There is some demographic continuity, as San Roque was founded by some of those who fled the Town of Gibraltar in 1704. But this only applies in one direction: it is possible for Gibraltar to be important in the history of San Roque without San Roque being important in the history of Gibraltar. I would contend that this is the case. (last two sentences added Pfainuk talk 19:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC))
Now, on to my argument, which I do not believe is represented above: that the circumstances surrounding the foundation of San Roque are not directly relevant to an article on the Town/BOT of Gibraltar (as opposed to the Campo de Gibraltar), as they have not had a significant impact on the important events in the later history of the Town/BOT of Gibraltar, or on the modern Town/BOT of Gibraltar. Pfainuk talk 18:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
"Motorists, and on occasion pedestrians, crossing the border with Spain have been subjected to long delays and searches by the Spanish authorities. Spain has closed the border during disputes or incidents involving the Gibraltar authorities, such as the Aurora cruise ship incident and when fishermen from the Spanish fishing vessel Pirana were arrested for illegal fishing in Gibraltar waters.[88]"
Could this be expanded to show that, in an NPOV, that the Spanish border guards hold up the traffic on purpose for no apparent reason using this source?. The source holds a lot of info so could probably be used to add/reference quite a bit of other stuff too. Just my thoughts. Wouldn't want to destabilise the page by starting an edit war - imagine that!! :P Willdow ( talk) 12:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
It is certainly civil. We do share some history here already, thus possibly you read my words with a preconceived idea. But the response has been largely more considerate than the statement it is replying to. Tell me, do you approve Gibnews' comment? Because I can't understand why you are engaging me instead of both of us, if you have to. And last but not least, I can't see how our little dialogue is in any way helpful at all either. -- Cremallera ( talk) 14:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't wish to intrude on your conversation, but why has this section turned into another bickering episode? I have been away for five days and have come back to see what progress had been made on my initial comments (closing the border if you have forgotten). Instead I come back to see more discussions which seem all too common on this talk page. I don't pretend to be perfect or even overly academically gifted, but honestly?? I feel like a teacher telling off naughty school children!! I'm pretty new here and therefore consider myself to be more of a neutral outsider looking in on things. Please please please don't think that I am having a go at anyone, but on this section of the talk page, I notice that what Gibnews and Justin say could potentially be interpreted as having negative bias towards Spain. Yes? But at the same time, Cremallera's comments don't seem the best way to go about pointing this out... As I said, I don't want it to seem that I'm singling anyone out, or for anyone to think that I'm having a go at them; there are some very good contributions from all three people I have mentioned amongst others, but enough with the counter-productive bickering!! For the sake of the article!
If anyone thinks I've got the wrong end of the stick, or am missing the point, please let me know...
Willdow (
talk)
12:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
You are both right. And I apologise for rising to the bait. It's just that I am already tired of this particular editor constantly maligning a country or its government pointlessly. The above comments aren't even the last time in this row (here are some diffs to illustrate my statement). Am I really expected to just endure this forevermore? Are there any alternatives to it? I am sincerely open to suggestions. Cheers. Cremallera ( talk) 14:28, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I've started on RFC on these articles here [18]. Justin talk 20:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see this section for a suggestion. -- Narson ~ Talk • 15:02, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The mother article. So what troubles the Gibraltar page?
-- Narson ~ Talk • 14:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Gibraltar had a very high CO2 per capita rate (because of water desalination?). I checked List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita but the latest worldwide data is from 2007, and Gibraltar ranks high but under the US. Is it relevant enough to be mentioned? -- Error ( talk) 20:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Error, you can read the whole story in the archive. The US statistics are not flawed or meaningless at all. That's simply the way they calculate them. And that's sensible given the fact that although not "emitted" in Gibraltar, such fuel is sold by Gibraltar and therefore, it's responsible for it. It's simply that, given that it gives a "bad view" on Gibraltar, it must be carefully hidden. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Carbon Dioxide Emissions in Gibraltar were 4.551 million metric tons in 2007. Due to its relatively small population, Gibraltar had in 2007 the higher per capita carbon emission in the world: 159.063 metric tons. However, upon the publication of the statistics in March 2009, the Gibratar-based Environment Safety Group heavily criticised the report as it could suggest Gibraltar is "a world leader in carbon dioxide emissions" and linked the figures to both the small population and the vast amount of fuel sold locally for export for Spanish cars (fuel is less expensive than in Spain) and to the bunkering service for international shipping. Therefore, they explain that Gibraltar does not emit such high carbon dioxide levels locally.
Gibraltar is not a self-governing or independent territory. It is a Non-self-governing territory of Great Britain. There are many sources which say so. Here is the UN Sixty-fourth General Assembly (Fourth Committee) statement from October 2009 [19]:
Please accept this verifiable information and stop reverting it. JCRB ( talk) 13:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
The above comments obviously referred to the lead, given that the opening of the discussion clearly stated it ("Since April 2009, the first sentence of the introduction to this article has the expression “Gibraltar is a self-governing (...) territory”"). You can also see direct references to the lead in some comments (e.g.: "(...) I don't see the need to mention that Gibraltar is self-governing in the lede at all (...)" Blueboar ( talk) 21:57, 20 August 2009). Everybody has admitted that the UN's position and some limits to self-governance are mentioned (much) later in the article.
Let me state this clearly: I think that, in case self-governance is mentioned in the lead, it should keep a NPOV (summarising all POVs and all limits to self-governance). The fact that other POVs and limits to self-governance are mentioned several tens of paragraphs below does not make the lead of this article NPOV and accurate enough, especially in such a sensitive question as this one. The fact that the lead has to be short does not justify that it only includes one POV and forgets very important limits to the statement it makes, even if they are included later in the article.
In case you think you won't be able to reach an agreement with me only by discussing in this page (which is very possible, given that you are again saying things like "There isn't any agreement and you will not wear people down tendentiously repeating the same crap"), what would you (and other editors) propose to do? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 08:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC) (PS: I would thank you if you could graciously avoid using the word "tendentious" -or derivatives of it- when you refer to me, or the word "crap" when you refer to my comments: some people could interpret that you are being offensive. Also, I would feel a bit better and I think it would help me to avoid talking about your attitude if you could apologise for those comments. I'm making these recommendations because I think they will help us to better reach consensus -and make the process a bit less uncomfortable, slow and painful. Thank you)
UNINDENT
I don't intend and -for sure- do not propose to go through the same again: We have already gone through it and -although it was worth the try- it has clearly not worked. I propose to try new ways to solve this dispute.
What has already been tried (chronologically)?
What has not been tried yet?
Justin and Gibnews, which of these methods are you ready to use? Or are you saying that you just won't accept any? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 16:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
That Gibraltar is Non-Self-Governing is my POV? What are you talking about? It happens to be the United Nation's POV. Give it up, will you? This is about verifiable information, not your personal opinions. Plus, we don't care who is trying to block or change the status of Gibraltar in the UN. Go and complain to Ban Ki-moon if you don't like the list. For the last time, stop blocking verifiable information or we will go to arbitration/dispute resolution. JCRB ( talk) 00:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Gibnews, I have only explained the UN General Assembly's position. It has never changed (or do you have any General Assembly declaration contradicting the previous statement about Gibraltar?). On the other hand, I have not said that I share the opinion of the UN. I have only said that it is notable. Also, I have never said that the people in San Roque are the "real Gibraltarians".
Justin, the complete sentence about "normally self-governing countries" was "disregards the advice of its people but reports to the Secretary of State of a foreign power." Do you know of any equivalent normally self-governing example? Or are any equivalent cases all "special" (as opposed to normal) self-governing cases?
The lead would imply the degree of self-government that Gibraltar has even if it only stated that "Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory" (all BOTs have a degree of self-government), as outside editor Blueboar proposed in the noticeboard some time ago (an outside comment that you seem to have forgotten). Maybe you should think about it again.
In any case, we are all repeating old arguments. I will ask this once more: which next step of dispute resolution are you ready to accept?
I have proposed you to accept a dispute resolution alternative six times in this talk page (not counting the mediation requests that were disregarded in August); you can see my previous requests to you in this talk page: 08:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC); 13:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC); 16:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC); 18:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC); 22:11, 20 January 2010 (UTC); 06:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC). I think that disregarding seven requests would be enough to start to suspect that you just don't want this dispute to be resolved. Please tell me that you wish to move on to one of those alternatives. Thank you. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 11:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading the reference you supplied, the Chief Minister's address to the UN C24 in 2007, there may have been some confusion over what he says and his refutation of the arguments used by the Spanish representative, this is part of his argument hightly appropriate to this topic and he says it better than me, being a QC :
“ | our ex-administering power does not, under our Constitution, retain a legislative or executive role or power in Gibraltar. In her attempts to undermine the significance and effect of our new Constitution, Spain has recourse to a number of arguments which are simply wrong. She points to various aspects of our Constitution in an attempt to demonstrate the continuing power of the UK and what Spain calls “the administering authorities in the person of the Governor”. These remarks, most recently made by the Spanish Representative at the Grenada Seminar, demonstrate a clear lack of understanding by Spain of the Constitutional model and of the proper legal analysis of the relationship that it creates. The United Kingdom Government has no powers in Gibraltar under our Constitution. It has no legislative powers and it has no executive powers. Under our system of Government, as in much of the Commonwealth, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second is the head of State and the source of all executive and legislative authority in Gibraltar. In exactly the same way as in the UK itself, Australia, Canada and the other Commonwealth countries. The Queen is separately Queen of all territories recognising and acknowledging Her as Head of State, including Gibraltar. Powers vested by the Constitution of Gibraltar in the Governor are vested in him as Representative of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second in her capacity as Queen of Gibraltar, and not in Her capacity as Queen of the United Kingdom. The Governor is not the representative in Gibraltar of the Crown in right of the Government of the United Kingdom. | ” |
“ | Accordingly on each occasion that Spain points to powers of the Governor or of the Administering Power as demonstrating that Gibraltar must therefore still be a colony because these are powers of the administering power, she is completely wrong in law, based on a failure to properly understand the constitutional status of the Queen as our head of state, of the Governor and the Constitutional relationship between the UK and its Overseas Territories, in consequence of which Spain systematically misrepresents the position. | ” |
I hope that helps explain the position. -- Gibnews ( talk) 17:33, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | The new Constitution is now in place and in operation. It maximises our self Government in all areas of Governance except defence, external affairs and internal security which, under our own Constitution vest in the Governor as a matter of distribution of powers. All other matters are the competence of the Gibraltar Government, the Gibraltar Parliament or other Gibraltar legal institutions. | ” |
Just to note that I have removed the term "self-governing" from the lede as it is uncited and we have at least one excellent source saying the precise opposite. As disputed and contentious material it should remain out of the article until the matter is properly settled. If both views can be properly sourced then by all means discuss the dispute, otherwise go with the one that can be sourced, but please do not reinsert any reference to self-government at this stage. I agree with the comment at the top of this thread that stating one POV as fact in the lede when there is a competing POV with apparent parity of sourcing is unacceptable ( WP:NPOV forbids this, in fact). Guy ( Help!) 16:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this true? In most democracies members of the government are appointed by the head of government, even if they are drawn entirely from an elected legislature. Do Gibraltarians get to vote on which member of parliament fills which ministerial portfolio? Dab14763 ( talk) 23:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The Rfc by Atama was: :Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article.
We have, I hope, a fair summary of the arguments for and against inclusion, copied from above. In italic, after each one, I have put my opinion on whether the argument is one that helps us to write a good encyclopedia article. As with the procedure suggested above, please feel free to add, after the italicized sections, your ideas on whether the argument concerned is helpful. I will rewrite my own italicized comments below in an attempt to reflect any developing consensus. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
1. The facts (as drafted above, hereinafter just "the facts") are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy.
2. The town of San Roque has, because of the facts, some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. It is within the former territory of the Campos de Gibraltar. Many of the previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled in San Roque, which kept Gibraltar's historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council. Thus it has some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. This is notable to both Spanish nationalists and Gibraltarians.
3. Gibraltar can claim the unusual distinction of having founded San Roque.
1. The town of San Roque is no more than a fairly close neighbour of the modern British territory of Gibraltar, the actual subject of the article.
2. San Roque is described as the most important settlement to result only because the administrative functions were transferred there, but many of the residents dispersed elsewhere into the Campo de Gibraltar, founding Algeciras and San Roque, some going even farther afield.
3. The people who left Gibraltar played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any significant repercussions from their departure.
4. The article is too long already and the facts surrounding the founding of San Roque could be trimmed for brevity in what is an overview article. Other encyclopedias do not mention the facts.
5. The facts belong in the History of Gibraltar article not necessarily an overview article.
6. The facts are only notable to people who want Spain to have sovereignty over Gibraltar.
7. San Roque's claim to be the real Gibraltar is irrelevant to Gibraltarian, UK, or international law. Such claims can be offensive to Gibraltarians.
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Due to the persist disruption of the article by JCRB for over 2 years now, I have opened a thread on AN/I. I've also reverted the article to the current consensus. Thats it for me, I've had enough for now. Justin talk 00:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Atama, what's factually incorrect? I don't quite follow. Allegations such as these are hard to prove, I admit it. You cannot exactly quantify the extent to which these editors have rejected sourced information over a long period of time. Perhaps you can count how many times they have blocked legitimate contributions, but we do not have the time to do this. In any case these are not attacks. They are pretty reasonable accusations based on long, mostly fruitless discussions with these gentlemen. If you have the patience, please have a look at the many points made by User:Ecemaml, User:Imalbornoz, other editors and myself in the last two years. Every single time, no matter how constructive and well-supported the fact was, these editors rejected it, either by downplaying the sources ("UN resolutions are not worth the paper they're printed on" - Gibnews) or countering them with arguments like "the article is too long already", or calling it a "minor detail" or "irrelevant", or simply denying the information out of personal skepticism. Curiously, the article is not "too long" when it's time to include the pro-British elements such as the Jane's Country Risk analysis, or mention the wish of the "overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians" or Britain's "commitment" to respecting their "wishes", when in fact according to the Treaty that binds Spain and Britain, the sovereignty of Gibraltar is not with the people who inhabit it, but with the "Mother Country" which colonizes, rules or administers the territory, meaning Britain. Thus, the wish of Gibraltarians to remain under British rule is quite irrelevant from a legal point of view. Again, this is ignored in the text. Let us remember that this is an article on a disputed territory, meaning 2 countries disputing sovereignty (therefore 2 points of view). However, it dedicates long sentences to explain the "positive" side of British rule, thereby subtly justifying it, but ignores the claims made by the other country (Spain) not only regarding sovereignty (explained above: territorial integrity and UN Resolutions on decolonization) but more serious matters such as: illegal trafficking, trespassing Spanish territorial waters, illegal building of the airport, shifting of the Gibraltar-Spain border over time, and others. This is a tricky and sensitive issue so I will not expand on it. The point is that the Spanish or Andalusian POV is completely avoided in this article. It needs to be more balanced and unbiased. I will make the following point again: I am not pushing for a Spanish POV, but for a more neutral and objective wording of the article. JCRB ( talk) 04:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | We conclude that the series of allegations which Spain makes against Gibraltar appear almost wholly to be without substance. In many cases, it is not just the Government of Gibraltar but the British Government as well which is traduced. It is deeply regrettable that allegations are made that cannot be sustained by a basis in fact. If concrete evidence of wrong-doing were produced, the British Government should act promptly to deal with the problem. But so long as allegations are unsubstantiated, the British Government should continue to rebut them promptly and decisively. ... 'UK Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee Report.' | ” |
“ | "Money laundering on an all-crimes basis was criminalized in 1995, All financial institutions, insurance companies, bureaux de change, accountants, company formation agents, casinos, attorneys and others are obliged to report suspicious transactions. Gibraltar is within the EU as part of the UK Member State. It implemented the EU Money Laundering Directive in 1995, and its anti-money laundering legislation is fully in line with EU requirements. ... 'US State department.' | ” |
“ | The Government of the United Kingdom has no doubt about the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Gibraltar, including its territorial waters. ... HMG. | ” |
Under "Language" we read Gibraltarians also call themselves Llanitos. Should the latter term be added in the Infobox as an additional demonym? Irv ( talk) 21:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Whether its PC or not to say it, most of the disputes on this page boil down to the difference in the view of Gibraltar between Spanish POV and Gibraltarian POV editors, and the dispute spills over onto a number of other pages. At present we have two major disagreements;
Both of these directly impact the validity Spanish sovereignty claim.
I propose that we limit the discussion of disputes to the article disputed status of Gibraltar and that the entire description of the capture of Gibraltar is farmed out to an article of that title, which is referenced from all the other pages that contain the various POV ridden descriptions of the events of 1704.
AND it can include detail of San Roque, how noble it is, and how the natives link hands and dance around the refinery stack every year calling for the return of the rock, should that happen - although I suspect like the Gibraltarians they have other more pressing concerns and golf courses.
OR we can just go on and on for the foreseeable future, until everyone gets banned from editing, or drops out. However, for as long as the propaganda and dispute rages undoubtedly others will pick up when the existing editors get bored or die of old age. -- Gibnews ( talk) 22:08, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
The status of Gibraltar as self-governing is disputed, this is separate for the long-standing territorial dispute between UK and Spain. This has been the subject of a see-saw revert war in the lead sentence.
In favour of the view that Gib is self-governing are these sources (though some appear to be equivocal):
*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/1386334/Gibraltar-makes-plans-for-self-government.html] David Blair, Gibraltar makes plans for self-government, Daily Telegraph, 28 February 2002 "GIBRALTAR'S parliament approved an ambitious package of constitutional reform yesterday designed to give the colony almost complete self-government.
Note from Imalbornoz This last source belongs in the "not complete self-government" category
Against the view are these sources:
*
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gi.html Government type: N/A I struck through this source as if you look at the link for Government type on the CIA website there is no category for governments like GoG.
Justin
talk
21:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Supporting the view that Gibraltar is either "self-governing except for" or has "almost complete self-government" (not simply "self-governing"):
Note from Imalbornoz I have added this new category of sources supporting a third POV (self-governing with notable exceptions) Note from Justin There isn't a 3rd POV category as Self-government of itself is a qualification in that it does not indicate a sovereign state, only sovereign states control all aspects of Government.
Supporting neither view but indicating that the question is not as simple as is/is not self-governing:
Note from Justin This sources actually states Gibraltar is an overseas territory of the United Kingdom and is self-governing in all matters but defense.
Unfortunately someone forgot to include this cite as to why Gibraltar remains on the UN list:
Note from
Imalbornoz This cite only proves that Spain is against delisting Gibraltar, not that this is the only reason (or even the main reason) "why" Gibraltar is on that list of 16 territories. In fact there are 9 BOTs on that list besides Gibraltar: it sounds very reasonable that they share some common "why" with Gibraltar (besides the very specific position of Spain in the case of Gibraltar).
Striking through comments as misleading and only Gibraltar asked to be delisted. This is
WP:OR and is not permitted on wikipedia.
Justin
talk 18:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Again forced to strike through comments, Gibraltar is the only BOT to ask to be delisted. The comments were designed to give a misleading impression.
Justin
talk 19:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Struck through comments again, irrelevant info and editor opinion presented as fact.
Justin
talk 16:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC) Struck through comments by editor who has modified the RFC after filing, for his personal opinion and not to correct an error by the person filing. --I've deleted my warning, can you just leave one explanation of the strike thrus so the intro is not packed by our comments? (I'll delete this comment myself) --
Imalbornoz (
talk)
08:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Statement above is, I think, an accurate description of the dispute. For the avoidance of doubt I am English, this may be considered significant by those Spanish editors involved but I hope I have acted as an honest broker in stating the dispute above. Guy ( Help!) 10:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
My view is that:
I also think that any editor associated with either POV - and the majority here appear to favour the British side - should be topic banned or blocked if they edit the contentious text during the period of the RfC, it should be left to a neutral third party to make any final summary and change to the article. Guy ( Help!) 10:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
“ |
|
” |
While some editors are making a genuine effort to find a neutral wording, Justin and Gibnews keep pushing their POV based on their personal opinions and what "reasonable people" would say. Then they accuse those who favour neutrality of "disrupting" the article. Judge for yourselves. Gibraltar is two things: a disputed territory and a colony of Great Britain. It is not a state in free association with another state, it is not an integral part of a sovereign state (it has a Governor, like Brunei or Saint Kitts, or Grenada, or Mauritius or Fiji or Hong Kong had Governors), and it is definitely not a sovereign state. Even the sources presented by these editors say that Gibraltar does not have self-government in defense and foreign affairs. Plus, the United Nations has issued several mandates requesting its decolonization since the 1960's, and has since listed the territory as Non-Self-Governing. Not much more need be said. JCRB ( talk) 00:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
My view is that if there is a disputed viewpoint on whether Gibraltar is self-governed or not, and it's important to note in the lead section then it would be best to say explicitly that whether Gibraltar is self-governed is disputed. But is it important to have in the lead section? Probably not. Best to explain the situation in the main article. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The British Government has maintained a policy since the '60s of either granting independence or devolving self-government onto the former colonies of the British Empire. This is easily cited.
Since 1969, Gibraltar has increasingly become self-governing. Again this is easily cited.
The most recent constitution (2006) has devolved almost total self-government upon Gibraltar. Again this is easily cited. The limits are defence and foreign relations; although Gibraltar has represented itself at the UN. Easily cited.
The original purpose of the UN C24 was to assist colonial peoples toward independence. Like many UN organisations that original purpose has now been subverted, it now represents a forum for nation states to advance their sovereignty claims; though as a body it has no powers to rule on sovereignty. Again this is easily cited.
In pursuit of its territorial claim, Spain opposes Gibraltar being removed from the list. Hence, Gibraltar remains on the list. Easily cited, it was in the article.
The article as I changed it last night reads that it is self-governing but remains on the UN list due to Spanish pressure, that is a neutral summary of the facts.
In pursuit of its sovereignty claim, Spain denies Gibraltar is self-governing, this is to portray it as a colony that needs decolonisation by transfer, funnily enough, to Spain. However, the population of Gibraltar do not wish to be transferred to Spain and have made that overwhelmingly plain in two referenda (that independent observers have held up as a model of democratic practise). Both facts easily cited.
To remove the fact that Gibraltar is self-governing thus favours one particular POV and is not a neutral summary of the facts.
A neutral summary is that Gibraltar as a BOT, has received increasing self-government. It remains on the UN list due to Spanish opposition to removing it. That is what the article said until it was changed. That is what it should say. This is not a British view, it is a neutral summary of the facts.
I have had enough of the tendentious editing by a few editors who are abusing UN resolutions, to claim that Gibraltar is not self-governing. The intervention to remove verifiable information and threatening topic bans and blocks on editors who restore it is unhelpful and is only going to encourage the disruptive editors who've tied this page up for months; they've got what they wanted. Justin talk 12:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Question 1
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Most definitely, it is not supporting one of two POV, it is presenting a NPOV of the facts.
Question 2
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
Most definitely, it is presenting a NPOV of the facts. To suppress it, is favouring a POV that seeks to deny self-government as part of a nationalist agenda. Question 3
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Gibraltar (pronounced /dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a self-governing [4] [5] [6] British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. [7] It nonetheless remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories as Spain (in pursuit of its territorial claim) opposes any attempt to remove it from the list [8].
Despite being someone who does not live in Gibraltar and who is not Gibraltarian, Justin expresses the wikipedia arguments better than me.
Having personally struggled to achieve self-government, I'm very proud of the way Gibraltar has achieved it. For most nations the process involves a dark period of guns, bombs and killing. Gibraltar has managed to do so peacefully and suppressing the result to pander to the sensibilities of a foreign state, which is not involved in the affairs of Gibraltar, is not what a reliable international online reference work should consider. -- Gibnews ( talk) 13:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
According to the sources provided, it's fairly simple (I think) to comply to WP:NPOV. Which are the facts that can be asserted for sure?
Therefore, redaction should be like this:
A shorter version could be:
Fairy simple, isn't it? Especially considering this: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves"
As an aside, the fact of Spain opposing the delisting of Gibraltar is simply a half-truth. Spain opposes, but it would be irrelevant if its position weren't shared by a not insignificant number of countries. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 13:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
An interesting point in this discussion is the assertion made by some participants (Justin and RedCoat the most notable) related to the actual meaning of self-government.
Justin has referred many times to "Self-governing" describing "a territory that administers its own affairs but is not completely sovereign or independent". However, the source he provides is quite weak (in fact there's no source, as the wikipedia article he takes as source lacks reliable sources in itself). The most obvious solution would be asking for reliable sources about such a concept, in order to determine whether, as it is claimed, "self-government" equals to "internal self-government". Unfortunately the sources provided above (of course that they not reliable in the sense that wikipedia defines them, but can give some clues) are far from supporting it. Let's see:
Although it's not valid to extract a conclusion from only two media sources (in fact it would be WP:OR), both of them consider a definition of self-government that equals a self-governing territory to one controlling defence and foreign affairs (BBC does not say simply "Gibraltar is self-governing"; The Telegraph does not talk about "complete self-government")
On the other hand, if you consider the source from the Government of Gibraltar:
It can be noticed that it supports clearly the definition supported by Justin and RedCoat ("Gibraltar is a democratically advanced, modern, economically independent and prosperous, and politically, administratively and legislatively self governing country"). Thus, it may lead to think that the statement "Gibraltar is a self-governing territory" is a POV in itself and therefore cannot be endorsed by our article.
Therefore, and regardless of the prominence of the self-governing issue, I support the option of qualifying the mention to "self-government" ("Gibraltar is self-governing in all areas except defence and foreign affairs"; there are other not so significant) in order to meet both the policy on reliable sources and on NPOV. Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar is described as "self-governing in all matters except defence and foreign policy". This is not my opinion but a fact that can be cited. To assert otherwise would be an error of fact.
The term "self-governing" cannot in common usage extend to defence and foreign policy as these responsibilities are, by definition, not internal matters. Were we to treat "self-governing" as an umbrella term that includes defence and foreign policy, it would follow that Andorra too is not "self-governing". This lands us in an absurd situation.
The Falkland Islands article on Wikipedia has used "self-governing" for a number of years and no one has thus far raised an eyebrow. Similarly, when the United Kingdom imposed direct rule in the Turks and Caicos Islands, it is interesting to note that WP:ITN run the headline as follows:
Unsurprisingly, no one raised an eyebrow. This, if anything, reflects the degree to which the word "self-governing" is used to refer to roughly analogous territories without let or hindrance. Quite why Gibraltar should be any different is beyond me.
I would also like to point out that Gibraltar's presence on a list does not make it non-self-governing. The list has been challenged and is, in the minds of many people, wholly unreliable. Those who are unfamiliar with the Committee of 24 can be forgiven for thinking "if the UN says Gibraltar is non-self-governing, then Gibraltar must indeed be non-self-governing". I would urge such readers to familiarise themselves with some of the criticisms that have been levelled at the list. This makes for a good overview (courtesy of User: Pfainuk)
For these reasons I believe Gibraltar should still be described as "self-governing", in much the same way as the Falklands are. However, I also believe that we should not omit a reference to the UN list, albeit in the politics section, along with its criticisms. -- RedCoat10 ( talk) 13:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
For benefit of those who have not been here for long, I should note that I was, for a few years, a long-standing editor of this article, but have not actually edited it since late July - largely because I got bored of the constant disputes over the same things in which nothing is actually achieved.
Let me start with the three questions:
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Redcoat10 references my points on the UN from August in his comment. I would still cite the same issues with that list. When it comes down to it, "Non-Self-Governing" in a UN context is jargon: the fact that a territory is a "Non-Self-Governing Territory" does not imply that it is a territory that does not govern itself (equally, the converse - the fact that a territory is not on the list does not imply that it does govern itself).
"Self-governing" is not implicit in "British Overseas Territory". There are several BOTs that are not self-governing. Mostly they are uninhabited or under military rule, but the Turks and Caicos Islands in particular are an example of a non-self-governing BOT.
But while there is no reason why we shouldn't say that Gibraltar is self-governing - and good reason to mention self-government - I equally don't see that it has to be mentioned right there in the very first sentence.
Ecemaml makes a couple of suggestions for wordings. I would argue that both give too much emphasis to this in the lede - as indeed does the current version. The first sentence and paragraph should be giving a very basic overview of the article. What it is, why it's important. Detail of the C24 is unnecessary, too much at this stage in the article. If there was a compromise version that we could put into a couple of words, then great. If not, then we can and should move it elsewhere in the lede.
Restricting my changes to this dispute in particular, I would suggest:
Gibraltar (pronounced /dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. [9] The territory covers 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) and shares a land border with Spain to the north. Gibraltar has historically been an important base for the British Armed Forces and is the site of a Royal Navy base.
According to the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008, which measures the stability of 235 countries, territories and political entities in the world, Gibraltar is the 5th most stable territory worldwide, and the highest ranked British territory. The ratings are based on five fundamental categories: political, social, economic, external and military and security. [10]
The sovereignty of Gibraltar has been a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations. Gibraltar was ceded by Spain to the Crown of Great Britain in perpetuity, under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, though Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.Cite error: There are
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). The overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians strongly oppose this, along with any proposal of shared sovereignty. [11] [12] The British government has stated that it is committed to respecting the Gibraltarians' wishes. [13]
Though Gibraltar is self-governing in all areas except foreign affairs and defence, [14] it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories due to the Spanish claim. [15]
Thoughts? Pfainuk talk 14:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Support. In spite of my initial proposal (which is rather similar but with a different approach on the "importance" of the statements), this one seems extremely simple and a good compromise agreement. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 15:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (pronounced
/dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a
British overseas territory located on the southern end of the
Iberian Peninsula and
Europe at the entrance of the
Mediterranean overlooking (...)
Though Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [45], it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories. [16] |
” |
Would anybody have a problem with that? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
OK. I'll toss in my two cents rather than screaming 'Pox on all your houses for the extra drama'. I believe that Gibraltar is effectivly self governing, lets get that straight from the start. That is reality. Now. This is wikipedia, so lets ignore reality. We care about verification rather than reality. It is certainly a British Overseas Territory and that is cieable. I believe one could make a good argument for the neutral (and I do believe citable) explanation being that it is a 'British Overseas Territory with limited self-governance'. Plenty of alternatives out there.
While we are here, can we please stake through the heart that the UN view is automatically neutral or never the view of one memberstate repeated through an organ, and also stop saying 'UN view' unless it comes from the General Assembly, Security Council or UNSG (even the last I'm dubious on). The UN has clear objectives and stated beliefs and ideologies. This makes it as biased as any other organisation. I say this not to attack the UN (I am a rather large fan) but because the assumption is false and is unacademic.
So, what is my view? We should certainly cover the controversy. We also need to establish compromise wording for the start. The current wording could be far too resolute and thus glossing over the problem. 'Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territoy that is classified as 'Self Governing' by the British, though this is disputed' or somesuch, assuming we can cite. -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC) (PfainUK edit conflicted me. I need an adult)
There is a recent book about Gibraltar called Sovereignty and the Stateless Nation Gibraltar in the Modern Legal Context (2009). [46] It might be helpful if someone could refer to this book to get a clear neutral description of the Gibraltan state. The Four Deuces ( talk) 16:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Don't think I would agree with you on whether the matter is central enough to be included in the lead sentence, I'd say it is, though I'm willing to agree it is to some extent a case of Wikipedia:lead fixation. There is actually a wealth of sources to support the view and the reasons behind it remaining on the UN C24 list. The thing is people have done their homework. The matter is of great interest to the people of Gibraltar, who are central to this, but strangely seem to be left out of much of the discussions on their future. As to stopping the arguing. The argument has become circular, you explain things again and again, and think you've made the impression on the person, then they'll simply turn around and parrot what they've said at the start. Its the devil's job to get someone outside interested enough to go through the arguments enough to realise that its a case of gaming the system to skew the article to favour a particular POV. The intention then becomes clear, to block the page with tendentious arguments, drive away the moderate editors, and skew the article in a particular direction. Justin talk 18:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
If you can't choose whether to have your own army, whether to declare war, or whether to establish any treaty that you wish with other states, then clearly you are not self-governing in all respects, and it would be misleading to imply that you are by using "self-governing" with no disclaimer. On the other hand, if you manage domestic matters such as education, transport, justice and housing then you are self-governing in those respects. That is why sources use the statement "self-governing except in matters relating to defence and foreign affairs". My vote is to simply state in the first sentence that "Gibraltar is a BOT". (No BOT is self-governing in relation to defence and foreign affairs). And then, in the politics section, discuss where it is self-governing, and alongside that, mention the UN list. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
A few days ago I explained my opinion on this very issue in the Administrator's noticeboard.
The degree of self-governance exerted by Gibraltar's institutions is, at least, disputed amongst distinct sources. So far, I've seen some of them explicitly stating that Gibraltar isn't self-governing ( UN), and some qualifying the BOT as self-governing with the exception of a few matters -such as defence- or, more often, those currently attributed to HM Governor by the Constitution Order ( Britannica, for instance).
Reference to HM Governor's powers as endorsed by the 2006 Gibraltar Constitution Order. |
---|
|
In short, I agree with The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick's comment above: from my perspective, the lede isn't the best place to portray such details; the Politics section being more apropriate. Speaking of which, I've noticed this latter addition to it. As it stands now, it's both unreferenced (althought part of it is a direct transcript of the -equally disputed- Olivenza article) and original research, and shouldn't be in the article in my opinion.
Finally, and along the same lines, the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008 displayed in the lead section should be placed in the economy section, if considered relevant enough to even appear in the article (which I don't, by the way). -- Cremallera ( talk) 18:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
unindent
A couple of comments
The section about Ceuta and Melila is referenced, Olivenza could be removed.
Secondly regarding NPA, Gibnews you were out of order with the comment, Cremallera's argument isn't sustainable, since the Spanish Head of State is also unelected for one, lets comment on the argument not the person. RHoPF, please, you know you're not the person to speak to Gibnews on this, lets not add petrol to the fire please. For once the discussion has been reasonably well-tempered.
Cremallera, if Gibnews upsets you let me know and I'll bang heads. Justin talk 21:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The thrust of the arguments against including it are
a) The UN C24 List b) Spain disputes that Gibraltar is self-governing c) Gibraltar has a Governor or does not have full control of its defence or foreign relations
Taking each one in turn. A) The UN C24 List
The UN defines self-government according to:
What the UN classifies as self-government actually bears no relation to what responsibility a territory has for governing itself. Secondly the fact that Gibraltar remains on the list is solely due to Spanish lobbying, nothing whatsoever to do with the level or otherwise of self-government. No one objects to mentioning this I note. It does not of itself invalidate the statement that Gibraltar is self-governing.
Next B) Spain disputes that Gibraltar is self-governing.
Let us turn to the Flat Earth Society for a parallel. Do we edit Earth to state that it is round or maybe flat according to some POV. No, we give due prominence to such views and Spain is disputing it for dogmatic reasons, unrelated to whether Gibraltar is self-governing. Stating Gibraltar is self-governing and mentioning the fact it remains on the UN C24 list covers this point.
C) Gibraltar is not responsible for its defence or foreign relations. So what. "Self-governing" describes a territory that administers its own affairs but is not completely sovereign or independent. The very use of the phrase self-government means that Gibraltar is not responsible for external affairs.
The fact that Gibraltar retains a Governor is neither here nor there in regards to self-government, right now Gibraltar governs itself through the GoG. If the Governor dissolves the GoG and imposes direct rule, then it changes but we don't change that now. If the unelected Head of State argument is brought to bear, Spain has an unelected Head of State in Juan Carlos I. SO is Spain self-governing or not?
The other argument is that NPOV requires us to be neutral and if Spain disputes this, then mentioning it is not neutral. This is the most fatuous argument of them all. IF we don't mention that Gibraltar is self-governing, we are not being neutral. We are in fact favouring the POV that seeks to diminish that GoG in order to advance a territorial claim.
Thus far a sustainable argument to excise self-government has not been put forward. A neutral summary is that Gibraltar is self-governing but remains on the UN C24 list for reasons related to the Spanish territorial claim. Lets leave it at that. Justin talk 21:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
And if I may borrow someone else words, "The British sources questioned as 'partisan' are quite reliable as they only describe the naked fact of a political decision, not a posture.". Thanks,
Justin
talk
22:41, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I was attracted here by an RfC on a different point, but comment on Guy's questions anyway:
Question 1 Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion?
No, it should not.
Question 2 Should self-government remain in the lede long-term?
No, the statement that Gibraltar is a BOT is sufficient.
Question 3
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status?
It should start with the constitutional position with the extent to which Gibraltar is self-governing, mention any limits, and then mention the "UN" and any other rhetorical positions in reference to available respectable definitions of self-government. Given the recency of the relevant constitutional changes this may be difficult to do from conventional academic sources, but I note that ignorance is not the problem in editing this article; there are editors who I'm sure can provide reputable secondary sources for all of this. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 07:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar is a disputed territory administered by Great Britain and claimed by Spain. As several editors have pointed out, there are several sources that say Gibralar has some self-government (in matters except defense and foreign policy) and others that it does not (for example the UN List of Non-Self-Governing Territories). Objectively therefore, Gibraltar is partly self-governing at best. This is the wording I suggested in the Talk Page. However some editors reject this step towards neutrality, and continue pushing their POV. As explained, this is only a small example of the general bias in the Gibraltar article. Other POV's will need to be addressed at a later date. In this case, by calling an overseas territory "self-governing" and not explaining the limitations of the term, it subtly justifies its colonial status (or foreign rule). The question is how to solve this.
First, editors should avoid editing the article while the discussion is going on. I agree with Guy that any editor associated with either POV should be topic banned or blocked if they edit the contentious text during the period of the RfC. Second, I agree with Ecemaml's first proposed text which includes both sides of the argument:
However, in order to reach a consensus, the best option is probably to take the self-governing issue off the lead sentence, as JzG originally suggested. I believe Tbsdy, Pfainuk, Fut.Perf., The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick and Cremallera have all supported this suggestion. JCRB ( talk) 01:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibnews, could it be possible a) stop assuming bad faith in other participants (may some of them have an agenda; possibly most of them haven't; in the same way you might or not have an agenda... that is, those uncivil remarks help no one); b) stop assuming that only one nationality is allowed (or better, forbidden) to write in this article. Believe or not, but Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia everybody can edit. Best regard -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Indeed it does. Justin, you and Gibnews might like to consider the prospect of a clearly-restrained, carefully-NPOV, low-prominence description of the issue, as suggested by other editors. And ask yourselves if such an approach actually strengthens your underlying position on the politics and legalities. To put it another way, does the solution suggested by other editors make clear the weakness of certain claims over Gibraltar? I think it does, and that this solution may apply to other issues. I'll be back to San Roque when we've settled this one, but I suggest that in general giving a careful unbiased summary of feeble arguments is quite a good way to make their feebleness apparent. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I can see that, so far, there are three options that have been proposed: 1) keep the current lead as it is; 2) keep the reference to self-government but with the detail of the exceptions to self-government and mentioning the UN list; 3) return to the version pre-April 2009 just saying that "Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory".
IMO, the best option is number 3, because: the term British Overseas Territory already implies a degree of self-government (in inhabited territories), is neutral (in that it does not give more weight to one POV or other regarding self-government) and less verbose.
As a second option, I would support number 2. The thing here is that we have to find a text that supports all POVs about the exceptions to self-government in Gibraltar. So far, I have seen different POVs on the exceptions from relevant sources, for example:
Of all those different versions, you can see that the common denominator is that Gibraltar has a very important level of internal self-government (or, as the UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee puts it "almost complete internal self-government"). I don't think that anyone or any source has said anything that may disagree with that statement.
Therefore, I propose the following text:
“ | Gibraltar (pronounced
/dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a
British overseas territory located on the southern end of the
Iberian Peninsula and
Europe at the entrance of the
Mediterranean overlooking (...)
According to the Jane's (...)
The sovereignty of Gibraltar has been (...) Though Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [57], it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories. [17] |
” |
Would anybody have a problem with that? Any suggestions? Thanks. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 09:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC) "IMO, the best option is number 3", "As a second option, I would support number 3", which I don't find surprising in any way shape or form. Justin talk 12:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi all.
I am not involved at all on this issue, and I am not Spanish nor English. I don't understand why it is important to decide whether Gibraltar is self-governing or not, since self governing seems to be more an international law concept than a descriptive concept.
Why not write the first paragraph of the introduction in a purely descriptive manner, something like this:
"Gibraltar is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. The territory benefits from a very large autonomy, except in matters of diplomacy and defense."
And then, at the paragraph about "politics", the reader has already a full legal information:
"Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories (as it was nominated by the UK in 1947) considered annually by the United Nations Committee on Decolonization, though politicians both from the British Foreign Office and Gibraltar wish to see it removed citing that Gibraltar has effectively been decolonised."
Voui ( talk) 22:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the government of a country, nation, etc., by its own people 2. the state of being self-controlled 3. an archaic term for self-control self-governed adj self-governing adj
UNIDENT
I disagree, but I find your attitude totally lovable (you remind me of my discussions with my children...) ; - )
About the UN: Really, Gibnews, do you seriously mean that you have taken a look at the link to the UN website (which I've posted like 15 times) where it says "Non Self-Governing Territories listed by General Assembly 2002" AND YET you insist that the UN does not say anything? Come on, my friend, take a look at it and tell me which part of "NSGT-LISTED-BY-GENERAL-ASSEMBLY-2002" you don't understand. (you are right about one thing, though: the General Assembly has not changed its position on Gibraltar since the 60s, although it has quite accurately updated the Constitutional changes in its reports; why no changes in position? I don't know but those are the facts...)
About the UN procedures: I imagine that they are pretty Kafkian (the bigger the organisation and the more far away the "owners" or "taxpayers" the more it is so, like in the EU Commission, etc.), but it is a notable source...
About all the rest of sources: What part of the text "self-governing-EXCEPT-FOR" is difficult for you to connect with the concept that Gibraltar's self-government is not full or complete?
No bad feelings. Please read the sources and then we talk. Thanks! -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 12:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help):
“ | The open frontier helped to increase the Spanish share, and naval links with Minorca produced the small Minorcan contingent. | ” |
Gibraltar is an overseas territory of the United Kingdom and is self-governing in all matters but defence.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
A RfC has been repeatedly mentioned. I don't think it has been requested yet. Should we? In that case, should we agree on the approach? (one of us includes it, Atama includes it, ...; scope of the RfC; other details...) Or should one of us just go ahead? What do you think? Thanks. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 15:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article. -- Atama 頭 17:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
User:Ecemaml
User:Cremallera
User:Imalbornoz
User:Gibnews
User:Justin_A_Kuntz
Hi all, first of all, thank you for taking part in this Request for Comments. Atama's done a great job in the mediation but, as he points out, all of us have been inflexible enough to make a definite deal.
I'd like to set first the framework of this issue.
The disputed article talks about Gibraltar, a former British colony, now a British Overseas Territory, part of the European Union. However, there are no separate articles for the British entity and for the city (that is, the article deals with Gibraltar as a whole, not following, for instance, the approach of Taiwan and the Republic of China). A brief summary of the history of Gibraltar is as follows: Gibraltar was a Spanish town, captured to the Moors in the fifteenth century that become the head of an extensive municipal term (the Campo de Gibraltar) for two centuries and a half. It was captured in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession by a mainly Anglo-Dutch force on behalf of one of the claimants to the Spanish Throne, the Archduke Charles (a Habsburg). As a result of the takeover, the Spanish population of the city left it, settled down in different parts of the municipal term. In 1713, the town, yet occupied, was ceded to Great Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht. In 1713, the history of British Gibraltar formally begun (I focus on this issue since one of the recurrent arguments are that "Gibraltar is not Spain"; well, Gibraltar "was" Spain for two centuries and a half and only was only de iure British since 1713). Therefore, talking about the Spanish period of Gibraltar is perfectly valid. Doing it otherwise would be a evident POV.
The disputed section deals with the capture of Gibraltar in 1704 and the destiny of its population. It's has been argued that once the town was captured (I remember, on behalf of a claimant Spain king) nothing that happens outside the walls of the town (again, I remember that Gibraltar was an extensive municipality in 1704 and remained so, at least formally, until 1713; what nowadays is Gibraltar is of course nothing more than the town) is relevant to the article (there is a graphic statement in [here]: " The main thing to know is the Spanish lost, left and are never coming back"). There has been a long mediation process handled by Atama on the way to describe the capture. Though not confortable with the final result, Cremallera, Imalbornoz and me have agreed to accept a compromise with the text. However, there has been no compromise in how to deal with what happened with the Gibraltar population once they left the city.
My first approach was simply using reliable secondary sources to assess the best way to deal with it. You can see a survey of secondary texts in here (yes, I'll remove extensive quotations once this issue is settled). Mind that only English-speaking bibliography (although it could suffer from systemic bias, I've preferred to use it to avoid any propaganda suspicion). However, if you take the effort to read them (they're just four excerpts), you'll see the following: the Gibraltar population left the head of the municipal term (the very town of Gibraltar) and scattered through the municipal term, but mainly in San Roque (you'll notice phrases such as "the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque" or "Most Catholics (..) transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque").
The important issue here is that all historians of Gibraltar mentions San Roque (and acknowledge that it was the main settlement of the Gibraltar refugees). That is, the movement of mostly of the population of Gibraltar to San Roque is something that is unanimous and extensively described by any secondary sources dealing with the issue (not to talk of Spanish bibliography). That is outside any doubt. That is, as long as Wikipedia principles with regard to original research are concerned, it's factually accurate and supported by any relevant source to ask for the mention of San Roque in this stage of the history of Gibraltar (remember, we're talking about Gibraltar as a whole).
There is an extra point to defend the relevancy of San Roque to the history of Gibraltar. San Roque establised itself as the "continuation" of Gibraltar (as it kept its historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council...). And it did it in the Gibraltar municipal term, taking over the whole of the Gibraltar municipal term. That status was formally recognized in 1706, when the status of the town of Gibraltar was still dubious (it was not British until 1713). Mind also that the status of San Roque was not recognized until the failure of the contrasiege laid by Spanish and French troops in 174-1705 (in which Gibraltar inhabitants took part, see Simón Susarte). It can be argued that the Gibraltar population left the town in many occasions (that's right and should be mentioned), but this time is the first (and only) time in the history of Gibraltar that the regufees keep a vivid (and legal) memory of its roots and its relationship to the lost town.
The current version of the Gibraltar article does not mention (of course only in the section related to the history of Gibraltar, again, not the history of British Gibraltar) anything about the Spanish municipality of Gibraltar (its Campo). It does not mention San Roque. It does not mention its standard, its coat of arms, the motto granted by Philip V ("My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo."). Not mentioning the latter information might be right (as it's mostly relevant to San Roque in itself). But not mentioning the former (that most of the Spanish population of Gibraltar settled down in San Roque) is, IMHO, a blatant POV.
There is a question that should not be forgotten. The fact that Spain actively claims Gibratar to be transferred back to Spain. Spain's pressure during the Franco's dictatorship went further as closing the communication with Gibraltar, which caused a extraordinary suffering to Gibraltarians. It possibly contaminates all discussions related to Gibraltar. When during the Franco's dictatorship, the dictator tried to twist the Gibraltarians hand (he didn't treat their own citizens much better), one of the arguments that the dictatorship used was that the population of Gibraltar was allegedly "artificially planned" to the prejudice of the original population which "had been expelled". Moreover, when the Gibraltar question was analyzed by the UN Committee on Decolonization in 1964, the mayor (a Francoist official) of San Roque was given a hearing as a representative of the 'Town of San Roque where the most noble and loyal city of Gibraltar dwells' (that's only a translation of the San Roque's motto). He described San Roque as the direct continuator of the old town of Gibraltar, occupied by the English, having been established by the original and real Gibraltarians ['gibraltareños' in the original text] and to its inhabitants as the descendants of the original and real Gibratarians [same comment] or the legitimate Gibraltarians [same comment]. Gibraltarians are described as the current population of Gibraltar. I understand that Franco's statements (about real and not real Gibraltarians) deeply hurt Gibraltarians. However, IMHO, only because a fact is malliciously used it does not mean that such a fact must be hidden as long as it is accurately described, without introducing assessments (remember NPOV summary: " Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves").
Finally, with regard to "undue balance", at the moment, the section on history is 135-line long (cutting and pasting the text in a standart word processor). The section devoted to the "Spanish" and Habsburg Gibraltar is 12 + 12-line long (12 in the section named "The Spanish period" and 12 in the opening section named "The British period", which should be renamed to "The Habsburg period", as most of the historians do; otherwise is a new POV). What I'm proposing (see below) add just three lines to the overall text. Mind also that most of what is listed in the section "The Spanish period" is a minor incident that is not recorded by most of the historians dealing with the History of Gibraltar. Nothing is said, however, about the royal donation to the town of Gibraltar to establish its municipal term, for instance.
To sum up (and thank you if you're reached this point), I can't see any valid reason to hide the fact that most of the Gibraltar population that left the town in 1704 established in what nowadays is San Roque, as long as such a mention is included in the proper place, the section on history dealing with this period of time. I'm not proposing a paragraph, only one sentence (in bold the text currently in the article):
“ | By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Most of them took refuge around the hill of San Roque, inside the municipality of Gibraltar, and created a settlement which would later become the town of San Roque and be granted the arms and constitution of Gibraltar. | ” |
Besides, I'm proposing that the first two paragraphs in "The British period" (including my proposals) are set in a section named "The Habsburg period".
Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 18:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Some of the above statements are not entirely correct, in fact I would go so far to state that it is actually disingenuous.
One side of this dispute has been flexible, they have pointed out that the detail of the mention of San Roque belongs in the article History of Gibraltar, whereas this article being more general and an overview, then details of the ultimate destination of the people who left in 1704 is not suitable. The other side insists absolutely it must be mentioned, with additional details and have not been prepared to compromise on that.
The problem with this article is that it is already too long by wikipedia standards. Before this dispute blew up, we were in the process of reducing its size. Hence, we are reluctant to add significant additional detail. As this is an overview article we cannot cover every single aspect of what happened and in summarising the events we have to prune some facts. The people who left in 1704 played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any consequences to their movement and so the details of what happened to them is not necessary for this article. A reader who wishes to know more can simply look at the greater detail on the History of Gibraltar.
Now this position has been explained but the dispute has gotten somewhat bad tempered, with accusations of bias, suppression of the truth, or even vetoing any mention of San Roque; clearly a false accusation since we suggest not unreasonably that it be mentioned on the history article.
I am rather glad that Ecemaml has mentioned in balance a rather nasty and racist aspect of the Spanish claim, that the populace of Gibraltar are not the "real" Gibraltarians but merely implanted colonists whose views are of no consequence. It should also be mentioned in the interests of full disclosure that this extreme Spanish nationalist viewpoint has been espoused off-wiki by one of the protagonists pushing for this proposal (though he does now disown them).
To single out San Roque is also inaccurate, since as noted in Sir William Jackson's Rock of the Gibraltarians the population dispersed in the Campo de Gibraltar seeking temporary homes, with some travelling as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga. The fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras. The most important settlement was established around the Hermitage of San Roque, which, in 1706 Philip V addressed as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo." The city council, banner, and records were moved there, and San Roque become Spanish Gibraltar as the Rock was gradually transformed into British Gibraltar.
So whilst San Roque was one of the main settlements it was not the only one. Further the details belong in the article on San Roque but not necessarily here.
Now a compromise was suggested that mentioned the population left for nearby areas of Spain, wikilinked to the Campo de Gibraltar. This was previously rejected out of hand because it didn't mention San Roque.
So I would suggest the compromise we put forward of mentioning the Campo de Gibraltar and leaving the details for the History of Gibraltar, facts relevant to San Roque are already mentioned in San Roque, Cadiz. It provides due coverage in what is an overview article, wikilinks to find more general information and the two articles History of Gibraltar and San Roque, Cadiz provide the details. This provides the coverage that apparently people desire, without overburdening this article with details of nearby Spanish towns.
One final request, can we please avoid flooding the talk page with contentious argument to avoid smothering any discussion by the none involved. Justin talk 22:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
It's interesting the way to approach the issue by Justin, I must admit. I could go point by point but it would be too verbose, so I'll try to focus on the key elements of his statement. Most of it is simply a set of provocations and slanders towards the rest of participants of this RfC. I won't play that game, although I could (for example, one of the parties is the one that has been openly described as POV editor, and not by the other party). I'm not particularly interested in these role-playing aspects of wikipedia. I'm here to write good articles.
I'd focus, however, in specific statements:
Here you have my proposal, stripping most of the "details"
“ | By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Most of them settled nearby, in which later become the town of San Roque. Others in Algeciras an Los Barrios. | ” |
Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
“ On 7 August a dejected procession filed out of the Land Port with Queen Isabella's banner at their head, followed by the city council, the garrison with their three brass cannon, the religious orders, and all the inhabitants who did not wish to take the oath of allegiance to Charles III. Some four thousand people left the city; only about seventy of the original Spanish inhabitants took the risk of staying behind in the town that at the time had twelve hundred dwellings. (..) Then they disperses into the Campo seeking temporary homes. One of the leading city councillors offered to keep Isabella's banner and the city records in this country house. Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia. But the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque, which, in 1706 Philip V addressed as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo." The city council, banner, and records were moved there, and San Roque become Spanish Gibraltar as the Rock was gradually transformed into British Gibraltar. ”
Just to comment on one aspect of the logic claimed for this proposal, that many authors of historical texts mention San Roque, yes they do. I'm sure reams of citations will be produced for that. However, the logic that because authors mention it in history books it must be inserted in this article is flawed. If we're obliged to mention every single fact that an author deems relevant, we could never have a short article. Noticeably other encyclopedias don't feel the need to mention it [1]. Justin talk 22:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Pfainuk, nice to see you here again. I thought that opinions from uninvolved people was requested, but anyway, your comments are welcome. I've already asked Justin on your statement about that only events with "significant practical impact on the later history of Gibraltar" (in the best case it leads to recentism, in the worst to POV, as the most recent period, the British, would be privileged) must be mentioned. Following your approach I assume that Neanderthals, Tariq ibn Ziyad, the Battle of Gibraltar, the Archduke Charles, the Battle of Gibraltar, the operation Felix or [[Władysław Sikorski] should not be mentioned at all. It's strange that such removals hadn't been suggested in the past.
On the other hand, your statement ("particularly if, as Justin suggests, San Roque was not the primary destination for the former townspeople of Gibraltar") is surprising. I didn't thought Justin was a reliable secondary source. Unfortunately, what Justin "suggests" is simply untrue. Let's see:
“ | Some people travelled as far as Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga to find refuge. Most of the fishermen and their families moved into the ruins of Algeciras and restarted not only their own lives there but the life of Algeciras. Other families settled nearby at Los Barrios that had grown into a small town by 1716. Members of the religious orders found havens in the monasteries and nunneries throughout southern Andalucia. But the most important settlement to be established was around the Hermitage of San Roque (..) | ” |
“ | Most Catholics, perhaps 1,500 families, maybe 5,000–6,000 people, transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque | ” |
Unfortunately, as the historians on the topic suggest San Roque was the primary destination for the former townspeople of Gibraltar. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:08, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
This article reviews, albeit briefly, most of Gibraltar's history in the appropriate section. The territory has been inhabited since the Stone Age, later populated by the phoenicians, carthaginians and Vandals; it has been part of muslim iberia until conquered by the Kingdom of Castile following the Reconquista, and of Spain since the establishment of the Spanish Crown in 1479, until its cession in 1713. In 1704 it was captured by Anglo-Dutch troops on behalf of the austriacist side of the War of the Spanish Succession, and its population fled from the town, but not from the township, to settle down mostly in the Saint Roch's shrine nearby. Franco-Spanish troops tried to recapture the fortress between 1704 and 1705, eventually lifting up the siege. At this point, in 1706, King Philip V of Spain granted the aforementioned settlement the status of "city". The Crown of Great Britain obtained Gibraltar in 1713, by the means of the Treaty of Utrecht.
All this (and much more) is covered in the history section of the article, except the foundation of the neighbouring town of San Roque as a direct consequence of the 1704 capture. Not every existing municipality can claim to be cause of the foundation of another city. Neither historian disregards this connection in the works concerning Gibraltar's history. You can read some related excerpts of the following books "Rock of the Gibraltarians", "Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar" and "Gibraltar. A History" (written by Sir William Jackson, George Hills, and Maurice Harvey respectively) here. Allen Andrews' "Proud Fortress. The Fighting Story Of Gibraltar" alludes to this incident too, and so does Ayala's "Historia de Gibraltar" (in Spanish, and being quoted as a source by the historians mentioned above) here. I'd like to add that all those unanimous reliable sources constitute the framework by which we understand this particular piece of history, and therefore should be the main criterion to assign objective relevance values to that information, as opposed to some editors' very respectable opinions. And I've used this argument before. Justin, above, anticipates this and states:
And thanks for reading it all! Cheers. Cremallera ( talk) 16:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Atama, I have nothing more to say that what the policy states: secondary sources are preferred to tertiary ones. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
All the historians that have been cited as sources for the History section in the Gibraltar article (most of them English) have considered the following to be relevant enough to be mentioned in their books: Almost all the population of Gibraltar left their village on 7 August 1704, and most of them settled around the chapel of San Roque (6.5 kilometers away from the Rock). Most of these historians also mention that this settlement became permanent and was granted the status of "city" two years later when it was considered as "My City of Gibraltar resident in its Campo" by the then King of Spain, keeping the public records, the standard, etc of the town of Gibraltar. The article currently does not mention San Roque as the final destination of most inhabitants of Gibraltar after their departure in 1704. Some editors argue that the article is already too long and "San Roque" is not relevant enough to be mentioned in the History section of the Gibraltar article.
On the other hand, these same editors are happy to include in the article many other issues which most sources don't consider relevant enough to be mentioned in their books. For example, only three paragraphs above the capture of Gibraltar [3], the article describes that some Sephardim left for "Cordoba" after a stay of only a couple of years in Gibraltar.
If we are going to judge the relevance of events according to their being mentioned by secondary sources, the "San Roque" episode should be considered more relevant than the "Cordoba" episode -for example- and also many other events that have much less coverage in secondary sources than San Roque. Therefore, I think that excluding "San Roque" from the Gibraltar article is not justified.
I have my own opinion about the relevance of "San Roque" in the history of Gibraltar (I honestly think that the fact that the biggest part of previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled down only 6.5 km from their old homes after the capture of the Rock, and stayed there to found a city keeping historical continuity with the old town of Gibraltar is very relevant). But probably it should not be my opinion which counts, but the relative coverage in secondary sources of this event vis a vis other episodes that are indeed mentioned in the article. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 18:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
For your info:
“ | But this time the civilian population’s concerns for their safety under British control were compounded by not unreasonable fears of mistreatment by Protestant troops. Most Catholics, perhaps 1,500 families, maybe 5,000–6,000 people, transported themselves and their movables across the new frontier to the Campo de Gibraltar, and especially to San Roque.[note 9]. [note 9]: Caruana, Cloud, p. 6, suggests a total population before the siege of about 6,000, whereas Hills, Rock, pp. 176–7, estimates a civilian population of 4,000–5,000. |
” |
You're welcome. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC) PS: on the other hand, where does your weird statement "significant chunk of the population settled in Algeciras, Medina Sidonia, Ronda, and Malaga" comes from? None of the sources (but you, and you're not a source) talks about "significant chunks"
Any chance we can move the comments by outside parties to a separate section? The extended arguments by participants are making the comments that you've requested difficult to spot. Don't want to do it myself without consensus that it's fair enough since it's a little close to editing others' comments, but I think it would be useful... Pfainuk talk 18:37, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
( ←) How would you all prefer this to be structured? I agree that some comments can be lost in this discussion with the long statements and back-and-forth between disputants. I had considered creating a subpage, like Talk:Gibraltar/RFC Statements and moving the statements there, but then I wasn't sure whether the responses to the statements should also be moved because some of the comments from outside participants are replies to those statements. But leaving the responses without the statements would remove the context and make it more difficult to understand the comments.
What about collapsing the statements? Anyone who wants to read them can expand them to do so, but when not expanded the RFC section would be much smaller. How does that sound? -- Atama 頭 23:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
[unindent] The bottom line is that all the information about what happened at that time is unreliable, most of the histories simply quote what others have written, but changing the wording slightly. The only important thing is that the Spanish inhabitants left and since then Gibraltar has developed and prospered. That is what the article should be focused on and not what happens in San Roque as that has an article of its own which has grown from a simple whinge about 1704 to something more useful. -- Gibnews ( talk) 00:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, I've changed the phrasing of the mention to this extraordinarily relevant report.
There are two main reasons. The first one is that it's misleading in the sense that it suggests it has taken one year to analyze Gibraltar. The second and most important is that the report is only about "risk" and not about "prosperity". The source of the mistake is not in the wikipedist that included the text but in the source, which takes some "literary" licenses when describing the report. The Times talks about the most stable and "prosperous" nations. However, when other news agencies talk about this report, only mentions "stability" and not prosperity. See Reuters and UPI. Furthermore, if you go to the original source (that is, Jane's and its parent company, IHS), they talk only about stability (see press release by Jane's, description by Jane's and explicit mentions to Gibraltar in IHS press release and report summary). -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
What seems definitely worthless is wasting our time in your ridiculous assessments. Let's see:
The Jane’s Country Risk Ratings measures the stability of all 235 country, territory and political entities in the world.
The ratings provide a holistic assessment of the various factors that affect stability. The service measures 24 factors across five fundamental categories—political, social, economic, external and military and security.
According to the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008, which measures the stability of 235 countries, territories and political entities in the world, Gibraltar is the 5th most stable territory worldwide, and the highest ranked British territory.
So, at the end, the one who's lying it's not me. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 00:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC) PS: how does your edition complies with your statements about about avoiding "excessive detail"? Double standard? Possibly yes.
After the edit war created when I allegedly tried to "make a point" including some Spaniards among the Gibraltar-born people, I have to recognize that this time Justin has surprised me once again, since I didn't expected him to start yet another edit war with no apparent justification. Let's see.
Unfortunately, I've got very familiar with Gibraltar-related issues, so, when I read the following text in the section on Demographics, something sounded very strange to me:
“ | By 1753 Genoese, Maltese, and Portuguese people formed the majority of this new population. Other groups include Minorcans (due to the links between both British possessions during the 18th century; immigration begun in that century and continued even after Minorca was returned to Spain in 1802 by the Treaty of Amiens [1] [2]) Sardinians, Sicilians and other Italians, French, Germans, and the British. | ” |
The first strange issue was the lack of mention to Jews in Gibraltar, as I know they were one of the main "nations" in 18th century Gibraltar. The second was the lack of mention to the Spaniards, as they has been for the whole history of British Gibraltar more than the Portuguese. The third, and even weirder, was the mention to Maltese people. It's widely known that Malta become a British territory in 1802 so it was impossible such a massive presence.
Well, in this point I could have included a {{ fact}} template. But it was not sensible, as I have the means to access the right information. I took one of my books (William Jackson (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (Second ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, United Kingdom: Gibraltar Books. ISBN 0-948466-14-6.) and looked for the information. It provided information about the 1753 census (I don't know which this specific date has been chosen) and got the following figures: British: 351; Genoese: 597; Jews: 575; Spaniards: 185; and Portuguese: 25; without further mentions to other nationalities. I was right (Maltese out; Jews and Spaniards in). So, I included the following text:
“ | By 1753 Genoese, Jews, British, Spanish and Portuguese people formed the majority of this new population. [3] | ” |
For me, it was simply a "routine" task (fixing an obvious mistake). To my surprise, Justin A Kuntz reverted my edition with a weird edition summary "happens to be sourced and correct, ask Imalabornoz who helped draft it on Demographics of Gibraltar". As I've shown, the paragraph was neither sourced nor correct (as I had verified data with a proper source; today I've double-checked it with other source and, as couldn't be otherwise, the same data is provided). So I reverted, explaining why ("your edition doesn't happen to have a source (Maltese stock in 1753? :-D). I have provided one (Jackson) and unless you provide a source on the 1753 census (I did) I needn't ask anyone"). Well, I thought it was solved, but unfortunately wasn't. New reversion by Justin, with a new and weird edition summary ("FFS will you stop edit warring over every fucking thing. IT IS SOURCED ON Demographics of Gibraltar"). Obvious to say that Demographics of Gibraltar does not talk about any census or similar information dated in 1753).
So, at the end, I wonder why this is happening. Is it because my text includes any banned word? Which one? Can we bet? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 23:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC) PS: this section is on the "disputed" text. The edit war is discussed here
Nice small talk, Justin, but the issue remains. Why do you insist in including false information in Wikipedia? -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Your usual defamations, Gibnews. The most interesting thing is how you see a trouble in the most unsuspected editions. It's too boring. Can you provide any diff of your dubious statements? No, as usual. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Imalbornoz, your suggestion is pretty good. I can try, as the books I have are very good. However, the current statements are false. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, as you haven't been able to explain why you reverted my editions, I'll fix them again. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Although one can guess at the ethnic origins of people from names on the electoral roll, its misleading because of marriage, and eligibility. The term 'Spanish Gibraltarian' is an oxymoron as to be Gibraltarian one must be British, although it is possible to be British with dual nationality, Spain does not allow it. Its also a sweeping statement that the Spanish population left in 1704 - a good number came back which is why there are so many Spanish names in Gibraltar. Since Spain joined the EU there is nothing unusual about actual Spanish nationals living in Gibraltar and they are enumerated as such in the 2001 census. -- Gibnews ( talk) 23:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
The Rfc by Atama was: :Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article.
The subsequent debates do not seem to have settled a long-running discussion, which I suggest has too often become sidetracked by irrelevancies. I'd like to propose a week for consensus on the arguments - the arguments only, not the answer - for and against the proposal that something like the following comment should be included at the end of the first paragraph of the British period section of the Gibraltar article: "By 7 August 1704, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and departed for the Campo de Gibraltar. Many of them settled nearby, within the previous territory of Gibraltar, founding the town of San Roque, Cádiz. Others went to Algeciras and Los Barrios."
Comments are invited. I propose to edit them ruthlessly, removing in particular anything that I think is a personal comment or in any other way brings irrelevancies into the issue. I may put such comments into a separate section, but in any case the two subsections below will contain the briefest statement of the arguments that I can produce. In effect I will be taking ownership, for a week, of this section. If you don't like it, well, this is Wikipedia and you can edit as you wish. But if you can support this process for a week, keeping this section to relevant arguments with supporting links, we may hope to produce a brief consensus statement of the arguments. (Some will find some of these arguments tendentious or feeble or both, but please keep your opinion of the arguments out of this section until the 21st.) This in turn may help us to arrive at a reasonably courteous consensus on the issue.
(Numbered purely for convenience, no further implications intended)
1. The facts (as drafted above, hereinafter just "the facts") are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy.
2. The town of San Roque has, because of the facts, some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. It is within the former territory of the Campos de Gibraltar. Many of the previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled in San Roque, which kept Gibraltar's historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council. Thus it has some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. This is notable to both Spanish nationalists and Gibraltarians.
3. Gibraltar can claim the unusual distinction of having founded San Roque.
OK, thanks for your patience. Do we have any further comments on the arguments to be included, or is my summary tolerable? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Thanks Imalbornoz for doing the research. I'd rather not comment on your argument just now, but I hope we can all agree that it and the counter-arguments have been adequately summarized in my now-numbered list. I do have opinions on which arguments are relevant to our encyclopedic task, and which are of decisive importance. But before I express them I'd like to ask for a consensus that the arguments for and against inclusion are well-represented, and then for comments on which arguments should be excluded as not relevant to an encyclopedia, and which are of high importance. Before anyone starts on my biases, let me say that despite one grandfather born in the County Cork and another in Mumbai I'm British and nobody's ever questioned my patriotism. My Spanish is limited to what I picked up on a cycling trip in the Andes in 1984; the perra gorda, for example, was news to me and I can merely read Spanish with some difficulty. I will however do my very best to achieve a neutral point of view and I hope a consensus on the original issue. Please follow here with reasons why some of the numbered arguments are, or are not, relevant. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
(Numbered purely for convenience, no further implications intended)
1. The town of San Roque is no more than a fairly close neighbour of the modern British territory of Gibraltar, the actual subject of the article.
2. San Roque is described as the most important settlement to result only because the administrative functions were transferred there, but many of the residents dispersed elsewhere into the Campo de Gibraltar, founding Algeciras and San Roque, some going even farther afield.
3. The people who left Gibraltar played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any significant repercussions from their departure.
4. The article is too long already and the facts surrounding the founding of San Roque could be trimmed for brevity in what is an overview article. Other encyclopedias do not mention the facts.
5. The facts belong in the History of Gibraltar article not necessarily an overview article.
6. The facts are only notable to people who want Spain to have sovereignty over Gibraltar.
7. San Roque's claim to be the real Gibraltar is irrelevant to Gibraltarian, UK, or international law. Such claims can be offensive to Gibraltarians.
Your suggestion of legal and demographic continuity depends on a specific definition of "Gibraltar" based on the administrative divisions of Spain prior to 1713 (the Campo de Gibraltar). I would note that this is an article on the Town and British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar (generally now known as "Gibraltar" as opposed to the "Campo de Gibraltar"), ceded to the United Kingdom in 1713, and recognised as British territory by Spain.
This is an important point that I think a lot of people miss. Spain considers Gibraltar to be British territory. It disputes the location of the border and it disputes the extent of British sovereignty as regards territorial waters and airspace, but that's it. Spain fully accepts that Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory and is not part of the Campo de Gibraltar.
Under Spanish law, I believe there is legal continuity between the former administrative division of Gibraltar and the modern Campo de Gibraltar. But there is no legal continuity between the former administrative division of Gibraltar and the modern British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar (the subject of this article). There is some demographic continuity, as San Roque was founded by some of those who fled the Town of Gibraltar in 1704. But this only applies in one direction: it is possible for Gibraltar to be important in the history of San Roque without San Roque being important in the history of Gibraltar. I would contend that this is the case. (last two sentences added Pfainuk talk 19:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC))
Now, on to my argument, which I do not believe is represented above: that the circumstances surrounding the foundation of San Roque are not directly relevant to an article on the Town/BOT of Gibraltar (as opposed to the Campo de Gibraltar), as they have not had a significant impact on the important events in the later history of the Town/BOT of Gibraltar, or on the modern Town/BOT of Gibraltar. Pfainuk talk 18:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
"Motorists, and on occasion pedestrians, crossing the border with Spain have been subjected to long delays and searches by the Spanish authorities. Spain has closed the border during disputes or incidents involving the Gibraltar authorities, such as the Aurora cruise ship incident and when fishermen from the Spanish fishing vessel Pirana were arrested for illegal fishing in Gibraltar waters.[88]"
Could this be expanded to show that, in an NPOV, that the Spanish border guards hold up the traffic on purpose for no apparent reason using this source?. The source holds a lot of info so could probably be used to add/reference quite a bit of other stuff too. Just my thoughts. Wouldn't want to destabilise the page by starting an edit war - imagine that!! :P Willdow ( talk) 12:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
It is certainly civil. We do share some history here already, thus possibly you read my words with a preconceived idea. But the response has been largely more considerate than the statement it is replying to. Tell me, do you approve Gibnews' comment? Because I can't understand why you are engaging me instead of both of us, if you have to. And last but not least, I can't see how our little dialogue is in any way helpful at all either. -- Cremallera ( talk) 14:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't wish to intrude on your conversation, but why has this section turned into another bickering episode? I have been away for five days and have come back to see what progress had been made on my initial comments (closing the border if you have forgotten). Instead I come back to see more discussions which seem all too common on this talk page. I don't pretend to be perfect or even overly academically gifted, but honestly?? I feel like a teacher telling off naughty school children!! I'm pretty new here and therefore consider myself to be more of a neutral outsider looking in on things. Please please please don't think that I am having a go at anyone, but on this section of the talk page, I notice that what Gibnews and Justin say could potentially be interpreted as having negative bias towards Spain. Yes? But at the same time, Cremallera's comments don't seem the best way to go about pointing this out... As I said, I don't want it to seem that I'm singling anyone out, or for anyone to think that I'm having a go at them; there are some very good contributions from all three people I have mentioned amongst others, but enough with the counter-productive bickering!! For the sake of the article!
If anyone thinks I've got the wrong end of the stick, or am missing the point, please let me know...
Willdow (
talk)
12:00, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
You are both right. And I apologise for rising to the bait. It's just that I am already tired of this particular editor constantly maligning a country or its government pointlessly. The above comments aren't even the last time in this row (here are some diffs to illustrate my statement). Am I really expected to just endure this forevermore? Are there any alternatives to it? I am sincerely open to suggestions. Cheers. Cremallera ( talk) 14:28, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I've started on RFC on these articles here [18]. Justin talk 20:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see this section for a suggestion. -- Narson ~ Talk • 15:02, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
The mother article. So what troubles the Gibraltar page?
-- Narson ~ Talk • 14:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Gibraltar had a very high CO2 per capita rate (because of water desalination?). I checked List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita but the latest worldwide data is from 2007, and Gibraltar ranks high but under the US. Is it relevant enough to be mentioned? -- Error ( talk) 20:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Error, you can read the whole story in the archive. The US statistics are not flawed or meaningless at all. That's simply the way they calculate them. And that's sensible given the fact that although not "emitted" in Gibraltar, such fuel is sold by Gibraltar and therefore, it's responsible for it. It's simply that, given that it gives a "bad view" on Gibraltar, it must be carefully hidden. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 22:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Carbon Dioxide Emissions in Gibraltar were 4.551 million metric tons in 2007. Due to its relatively small population, Gibraltar had in 2007 the higher per capita carbon emission in the world: 159.063 metric tons. However, upon the publication of the statistics in March 2009, the Gibratar-based Environment Safety Group heavily criticised the report as it could suggest Gibraltar is "a world leader in carbon dioxide emissions" and linked the figures to both the small population and the vast amount of fuel sold locally for export for Spanish cars (fuel is less expensive than in Spain) and to the bunkering service for international shipping. Therefore, they explain that Gibraltar does not emit such high carbon dioxide levels locally.
Gibraltar is not a self-governing or independent territory. It is a Non-self-governing territory of Great Britain. There are many sources which say so. Here is the UN Sixty-fourth General Assembly (Fourth Committee) statement from October 2009 [19]:
Please accept this verifiable information and stop reverting it. JCRB ( talk) 13:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
The above comments obviously referred to the lead, given that the opening of the discussion clearly stated it ("Since April 2009, the first sentence of the introduction to this article has the expression “Gibraltar is a self-governing (...) territory”"). You can also see direct references to the lead in some comments (e.g.: "(...) I don't see the need to mention that Gibraltar is self-governing in the lede at all (...)" Blueboar ( talk) 21:57, 20 August 2009). Everybody has admitted that the UN's position and some limits to self-governance are mentioned (much) later in the article.
Let me state this clearly: I think that, in case self-governance is mentioned in the lead, it should keep a NPOV (summarising all POVs and all limits to self-governance). The fact that other POVs and limits to self-governance are mentioned several tens of paragraphs below does not make the lead of this article NPOV and accurate enough, especially in such a sensitive question as this one. The fact that the lead has to be short does not justify that it only includes one POV and forgets very important limits to the statement it makes, even if they are included later in the article.
In case you think you won't be able to reach an agreement with me only by discussing in this page (which is very possible, given that you are again saying things like "There isn't any agreement and you will not wear people down tendentiously repeating the same crap"), what would you (and other editors) propose to do? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 08:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC) (PS: I would thank you if you could graciously avoid using the word "tendentious" -or derivatives of it- when you refer to me, or the word "crap" when you refer to my comments: some people could interpret that you are being offensive. Also, I would feel a bit better and I think it would help me to avoid talking about your attitude if you could apologise for those comments. I'm making these recommendations because I think they will help us to better reach consensus -and make the process a bit less uncomfortable, slow and painful. Thank you)
UNINDENT
I don't intend and -for sure- do not propose to go through the same again: We have already gone through it and -although it was worth the try- it has clearly not worked. I propose to try new ways to solve this dispute.
What has already been tried (chronologically)?
What has not been tried yet?
Justin and Gibnews, which of these methods are you ready to use? Or are you saying that you just won't accept any? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 16:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
That Gibraltar is Non-Self-Governing is my POV? What are you talking about? It happens to be the United Nation's POV. Give it up, will you? This is about verifiable information, not your personal opinions. Plus, we don't care who is trying to block or change the status of Gibraltar in the UN. Go and complain to Ban Ki-moon if you don't like the list. For the last time, stop blocking verifiable information or we will go to arbitration/dispute resolution. JCRB ( talk) 00:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Gibnews, I have only explained the UN General Assembly's position. It has never changed (or do you have any General Assembly declaration contradicting the previous statement about Gibraltar?). On the other hand, I have not said that I share the opinion of the UN. I have only said that it is notable. Also, I have never said that the people in San Roque are the "real Gibraltarians".
Justin, the complete sentence about "normally self-governing countries" was "disregards the advice of its people but reports to the Secretary of State of a foreign power." Do you know of any equivalent normally self-governing example? Or are any equivalent cases all "special" (as opposed to normal) self-governing cases?
The lead would imply the degree of self-government that Gibraltar has even if it only stated that "Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory" (all BOTs have a degree of self-government), as outside editor Blueboar proposed in the noticeboard some time ago (an outside comment that you seem to have forgotten). Maybe you should think about it again.
In any case, we are all repeating old arguments. I will ask this once more: which next step of dispute resolution are you ready to accept?
I have proposed you to accept a dispute resolution alternative six times in this talk page (not counting the mediation requests that were disregarded in August); you can see my previous requests to you in this talk page: 08:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC); 13:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC); 16:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC); 18:44, 19 January 2010 (UTC); 22:11, 20 January 2010 (UTC); 06:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC). I think that disregarding seven requests would be enough to start to suspect that you just don't want this dispute to be resolved. Please tell me that you wish to move on to one of those alternatives. Thank you. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 11:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Reading the reference you supplied, the Chief Minister's address to the UN C24 in 2007, there may have been some confusion over what he says and his refutation of the arguments used by the Spanish representative, this is part of his argument hightly appropriate to this topic and he says it better than me, being a QC :
“ | our ex-administering power does not, under our Constitution, retain a legislative or executive role or power in Gibraltar. In her attempts to undermine the significance and effect of our new Constitution, Spain has recourse to a number of arguments which are simply wrong. She points to various aspects of our Constitution in an attempt to demonstrate the continuing power of the UK and what Spain calls “the administering authorities in the person of the Governor”. These remarks, most recently made by the Spanish Representative at the Grenada Seminar, demonstrate a clear lack of understanding by Spain of the Constitutional model and of the proper legal analysis of the relationship that it creates. The United Kingdom Government has no powers in Gibraltar under our Constitution. It has no legislative powers and it has no executive powers. Under our system of Government, as in much of the Commonwealth, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second is the head of State and the source of all executive and legislative authority in Gibraltar. In exactly the same way as in the UK itself, Australia, Canada and the other Commonwealth countries. The Queen is separately Queen of all territories recognising and acknowledging Her as Head of State, including Gibraltar. Powers vested by the Constitution of Gibraltar in the Governor are vested in him as Representative of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second in her capacity as Queen of Gibraltar, and not in Her capacity as Queen of the United Kingdom. The Governor is not the representative in Gibraltar of the Crown in right of the Government of the United Kingdom. | ” |
“ | Accordingly on each occasion that Spain points to powers of the Governor or of the Administering Power as demonstrating that Gibraltar must therefore still be a colony because these are powers of the administering power, she is completely wrong in law, based on a failure to properly understand the constitutional status of the Queen as our head of state, of the Governor and the Constitutional relationship between the UK and its Overseas Territories, in consequence of which Spain systematically misrepresents the position. | ” |
I hope that helps explain the position. -- Gibnews ( talk) 17:33, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | The new Constitution is now in place and in operation. It maximises our self Government in all areas of Governance except defence, external affairs and internal security which, under our own Constitution vest in the Governor as a matter of distribution of powers. All other matters are the competence of the Gibraltar Government, the Gibraltar Parliament or other Gibraltar legal institutions. | ” |
Just to note that I have removed the term "self-governing" from the lede as it is uncited and we have at least one excellent source saying the precise opposite. As disputed and contentious material it should remain out of the article until the matter is properly settled. If both views can be properly sourced then by all means discuss the dispute, otherwise go with the one that can be sourced, but please do not reinsert any reference to self-government at this stage. I agree with the comment at the top of this thread that stating one POV as fact in the lede when there is a competing POV with apparent parity of sourcing is unacceptable ( WP:NPOV forbids this, in fact). Guy ( Help!) 16:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this true? In most democracies members of the government are appointed by the head of government, even if they are drawn entirely from an elected legislature. Do Gibraltarians get to vote on which member of parliament fills which ministerial portfolio? Dab14763 ( talk) 23:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
The Rfc by Atama was: :Should the main Gibraltar article include information about the town's population founding San Roque following a mass departure after the town was surrendered to British forces? One suggestion is to include that detail of the exodus, and other details, in the History of Gibraltar article and leave it out of the main article. But others feel that the information is too important to leave out of the summary in the main article.
We have, I hope, a fair summary of the arguments for and against inclusion, copied from above. In italic, after each one, I have put my opinion on whether the argument is one that helps us to write a good encyclopedia article. As with the procedure suggested above, please feel free to add, after the italicized sections, your ideas on whether the argument concerned is helpful. I will rewrite my own italicized comments below in an attempt to reflect any developing consensus. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
1. The facts (as drafted above, hereinafter just "the facts") are verifiably included in several reputable English-language histories of Gibraltar. No such history has been produced which omits the facts. They are found to be more notable to reputable historians than several points which have been included without controversy.
2. The town of San Roque has, because of the facts, some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. It is within the former territory of the Campos de Gibraltar. Many of the previous inhabitants of Gibraltar settled in San Roque, which kept Gibraltar's historical standard, granted by the Catholic Monarchs, its establishment privilege, its coat of arms, its records, its city council. Thus it has some legal and demographic continuity with Gibraltar. This is notable to both Spanish nationalists and Gibraltarians.
3. Gibraltar can claim the unusual distinction of having founded San Roque.
1. The town of San Roque is no more than a fairly close neighbour of the modern British territory of Gibraltar, the actual subject of the article.
2. San Roque is described as the most important settlement to result only because the administrative functions were transferred there, but many of the residents dispersed elsewhere into the Campo de Gibraltar, founding Algeciras and San Roque, some going even farther afield.
3. The people who left Gibraltar played no further part in the history of Gibraltar, nor were there any significant repercussions from their departure.
4. The article is too long already and the facts surrounding the founding of San Roque could be trimmed for brevity in what is an overview article. Other encyclopedias do not mention the facts.
5. The facts belong in the History of Gibraltar article not necessarily an overview article.
6. The facts are only notable to people who want Spain to have sovereignty over Gibraltar.
7. San Roque's claim to be the real Gibraltar is irrelevant to Gibraltarian, UK, or international law. Such claims can be offensive to Gibraltarians.
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Due to the persist disruption of the article by JCRB for over 2 years now, I have opened a thread on AN/I. I've also reverted the article to the current consensus. Thats it for me, I've had enough for now. Justin talk 00:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Atama, what's factually incorrect? I don't quite follow. Allegations such as these are hard to prove, I admit it. You cannot exactly quantify the extent to which these editors have rejected sourced information over a long period of time. Perhaps you can count how many times they have blocked legitimate contributions, but we do not have the time to do this. In any case these are not attacks. They are pretty reasonable accusations based on long, mostly fruitless discussions with these gentlemen. If you have the patience, please have a look at the many points made by User:Ecemaml, User:Imalbornoz, other editors and myself in the last two years. Every single time, no matter how constructive and well-supported the fact was, these editors rejected it, either by downplaying the sources ("UN resolutions are not worth the paper they're printed on" - Gibnews) or countering them with arguments like "the article is too long already", or calling it a "minor detail" or "irrelevant", or simply denying the information out of personal skepticism. Curiously, the article is not "too long" when it's time to include the pro-British elements such as the Jane's Country Risk analysis, or mention the wish of the "overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians" or Britain's "commitment" to respecting their "wishes", when in fact according to the Treaty that binds Spain and Britain, the sovereignty of Gibraltar is not with the people who inhabit it, but with the "Mother Country" which colonizes, rules or administers the territory, meaning Britain. Thus, the wish of Gibraltarians to remain under British rule is quite irrelevant from a legal point of view. Again, this is ignored in the text. Let us remember that this is an article on a disputed territory, meaning 2 countries disputing sovereignty (therefore 2 points of view). However, it dedicates long sentences to explain the "positive" side of British rule, thereby subtly justifying it, but ignores the claims made by the other country (Spain) not only regarding sovereignty (explained above: territorial integrity and UN Resolutions on decolonization) but more serious matters such as: illegal trafficking, trespassing Spanish territorial waters, illegal building of the airport, shifting of the Gibraltar-Spain border over time, and others. This is a tricky and sensitive issue so I will not expand on it. The point is that the Spanish or Andalusian POV is completely avoided in this article. It needs to be more balanced and unbiased. I will make the following point again: I am not pushing for a Spanish POV, but for a more neutral and objective wording of the article. JCRB ( talk) 04:52, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | We conclude that the series of allegations which Spain makes against Gibraltar appear almost wholly to be without substance. In many cases, it is not just the Government of Gibraltar but the British Government as well which is traduced. It is deeply regrettable that allegations are made that cannot be sustained by a basis in fact. If concrete evidence of wrong-doing were produced, the British Government should act promptly to deal with the problem. But so long as allegations are unsubstantiated, the British Government should continue to rebut them promptly and decisively. ... 'UK Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee Report.' | ” |
“ | "Money laundering on an all-crimes basis was criminalized in 1995, All financial institutions, insurance companies, bureaux de change, accountants, company formation agents, casinos, attorneys and others are obliged to report suspicious transactions. Gibraltar is within the EU as part of the UK Member State. It implemented the EU Money Laundering Directive in 1995, and its anti-money laundering legislation is fully in line with EU requirements. ... 'US State department.' | ” |
“ | The Government of the United Kingdom has no doubt about the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Gibraltar, including its territorial waters. ... HMG. | ” |
Under "Language" we read Gibraltarians also call themselves Llanitos. Should the latter term be added in the Infobox as an additional demonym? Irv ( talk) 21:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Whether its PC or not to say it, most of the disputes on this page boil down to the difference in the view of Gibraltar between Spanish POV and Gibraltarian POV editors, and the dispute spills over onto a number of other pages. At present we have two major disagreements;
Both of these directly impact the validity Spanish sovereignty claim.
I propose that we limit the discussion of disputes to the article disputed status of Gibraltar and that the entire description of the capture of Gibraltar is farmed out to an article of that title, which is referenced from all the other pages that contain the various POV ridden descriptions of the events of 1704.
AND it can include detail of San Roque, how noble it is, and how the natives link hands and dance around the refinery stack every year calling for the return of the rock, should that happen - although I suspect like the Gibraltarians they have other more pressing concerns and golf courses.
OR we can just go on and on for the foreseeable future, until everyone gets banned from editing, or drops out. However, for as long as the propaganda and dispute rages undoubtedly others will pick up when the existing editors get bored or die of old age. -- Gibnews ( talk) 22:08, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
The status of Gibraltar as self-governing is disputed, this is separate for the long-standing territorial dispute between UK and Spain. This has been the subject of a see-saw revert war in the lead sentence.
In favour of the view that Gib is self-governing are these sources (though some appear to be equivocal):
*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/1386334/Gibraltar-makes-plans-for-self-government.html] David Blair, Gibraltar makes plans for self-government, Daily Telegraph, 28 February 2002 "GIBRALTAR'S parliament approved an ambitious package of constitutional reform yesterday designed to give the colony almost complete self-government.
Note from Imalbornoz This last source belongs in the "not complete self-government" category
Against the view are these sources:
*
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gi.html Government type: N/A I struck through this source as if you look at the link for Government type on the CIA website there is no category for governments like GoG.
Justin
talk
21:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Supporting the view that Gibraltar is either "self-governing except for" or has "almost complete self-government" (not simply "self-governing"):
Note from Imalbornoz I have added this new category of sources supporting a third POV (self-governing with notable exceptions) Note from Justin There isn't a 3rd POV category as Self-government of itself is a qualification in that it does not indicate a sovereign state, only sovereign states control all aspects of Government.
Supporting neither view but indicating that the question is not as simple as is/is not self-governing:
Note from Justin This sources actually states Gibraltar is an overseas territory of the United Kingdom and is self-governing in all matters but defense.
Unfortunately someone forgot to include this cite as to why Gibraltar remains on the UN list:
Note from
Imalbornoz This cite only proves that Spain is against delisting Gibraltar, not that this is the only reason (or even the main reason) "why" Gibraltar is on that list of 16 territories. In fact there are 9 BOTs on that list besides Gibraltar: it sounds very reasonable that they share some common "why" with Gibraltar (besides the very specific position of Spain in the case of Gibraltar).
Striking through comments as misleading and only Gibraltar asked to be delisted. This is
WP:OR and is not permitted on wikipedia.
Justin
talk 18:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Again forced to strike through comments, Gibraltar is the only BOT to ask to be delisted. The comments were designed to give a misleading impression.
Justin
talk 19:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Struck through comments again, irrelevant info and editor opinion presented as fact.
Justin
talk 16:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC) Struck through comments by editor who has modified the RFC after filing, for his personal opinion and not to correct an error by the person filing. --I've deleted my warning, can you just leave one explanation of the strike thrus so the intro is not packed by our comments? (I'll delete this comment myself) --
Imalbornoz (
talk)
08:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Statement above is, I think, an accurate description of the dispute. For the avoidance of doubt I am English, this may be considered significant by those Spanish editors involved but I hope I have acted as an honest broker in stating the dispute above. Guy ( Help!) 10:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
My view is that:
I also think that any editor associated with either POV - and the majority here appear to favour the British side - should be topic banned or blocked if they edit the contentious text during the period of the RfC, it should be left to a neutral third party to make any final summary and change to the article. Guy ( Help!) 10:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
“ |
|
” |
While some editors are making a genuine effort to find a neutral wording, Justin and Gibnews keep pushing their POV based on their personal opinions and what "reasonable people" would say. Then they accuse those who favour neutrality of "disrupting" the article. Judge for yourselves. Gibraltar is two things: a disputed territory and a colony of Great Britain. It is not a state in free association with another state, it is not an integral part of a sovereign state (it has a Governor, like Brunei or Saint Kitts, or Grenada, or Mauritius or Fiji or Hong Kong had Governors), and it is definitely not a sovereign state. Even the sources presented by these editors say that Gibraltar does not have self-government in defense and foreign affairs. Plus, the United Nations has issued several mandates requesting its decolonization since the 1960's, and has since listed the territory as Non-Self-Governing. Not much more need be said. JCRB ( talk) 00:21, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
My view is that if there is a disputed viewpoint on whether Gibraltar is self-governed or not, and it's important to note in the lead section then it would be best to say explicitly that whether Gibraltar is self-governed is disputed. But is it important to have in the lead section? Probably not. Best to explain the situation in the main article. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
The British Government has maintained a policy since the '60s of either granting independence or devolving self-government onto the former colonies of the British Empire. This is easily cited.
Since 1969, Gibraltar has increasingly become self-governing. Again this is easily cited.
The most recent constitution (2006) has devolved almost total self-government upon Gibraltar. Again this is easily cited. The limits are defence and foreign relations; although Gibraltar has represented itself at the UN. Easily cited.
The original purpose of the UN C24 was to assist colonial peoples toward independence. Like many UN organisations that original purpose has now been subverted, it now represents a forum for nation states to advance their sovereignty claims; though as a body it has no powers to rule on sovereignty. Again this is easily cited.
In pursuit of its territorial claim, Spain opposes Gibraltar being removed from the list. Hence, Gibraltar remains on the list. Easily cited, it was in the article.
The article as I changed it last night reads that it is self-governing but remains on the UN list due to Spanish pressure, that is a neutral summary of the facts.
In pursuit of its sovereignty claim, Spain denies Gibraltar is self-governing, this is to portray it as a colony that needs decolonisation by transfer, funnily enough, to Spain. However, the population of Gibraltar do not wish to be transferred to Spain and have made that overwhelmingly plain in two referenda (that independent observers have held up as a model of democratic practise). Both facts easily cited.
To remove the fact that Gibraltar is self-governing thus favours one particular POV and is not a neutral summary of the facts.
A neutral summary is that Gibraltar as a BOT, has received increasing self-government. It remains on the UN list due to Spanish opposition to removing it. That is what the article said until it was changed. That is what it should say. This is not a British view, it is a neutral summary of the facts.
I have had enough of the tendentious editing by a few editors who are abusing UN resolutions, to claim that Gibraltar is not self-governing. The intervention to remove verifiable information and threatening topic bans and blocks on editors who restore it is unhelpful and is only going to encourage the disruptive editors who've tied this page up for months; they've got what they wanted. Justin talk 12:17, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Question 1
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Most definitely, it is not supporting one of two POV, it is presenting a NPOV of the facts.
Question 2
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
Most definitely, it is presenting a NPOV of the facts. To suppress it, is favouring a POV that seeks to deny self-government as part of a nationalist agenda. Question 3
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Gibraltar (pronounced /dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a self-governing [4] [5] [6] British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. [7] It nonetheless remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories as Spain (in pursuit of its territorial claim) opposes any attempt to remove it from the list [8].
Despite being someone who does not live in Gibraltar and who is not Gibraltarian, Justin expresses the wikipedia arguments better than me.
Having personally struggled to achieve self-government, I'm very proud of the way Gibraltar has achieved it. For most nations the process involves a dark period of guns, bombs and killing. Gibraltar has managed to do so peacefully and suppressing the result to pander to the sensibilities of a foreign state, which is not involved in the affairs of Gibraltar, is not what a reliable international online reference work should consider. -- Gibnews ( talk) 13:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
According to the sources provided, it's fairly simple (I think) to comply to WP:NPOV. Which are the facts that can be asserted for sure?
Therefore, redaction should be like this:
A shorter version could be:
Fairy simple, isn't it? Especially considering this: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves"
As an aside, the fact of Spain opposing the delisting of Gibraltar is simply a half-truth. Spain opposes, but it would be irrelevant if its position weren't shared by a not insignificant number of countries. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 13:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
An interesting point in this discussion is the assertion made by some participants (Justin and RedCoat the most notable) related to the actual meaning of self-government.
Justin has referred many times to "Self-governing" describing "a territory that administers its own affairs but is not completely sovereign or independent". However, the source he provides is quite weak (in fact there's no source, as the wikipedia article he takes as source lacks reliable sources in itself). The most obvious solution would be asking for reliable sources about such a concept, in order to determine whether, as it is claimed, "self-government" equals to "internal self-government". Unfortunately the sources provided above (of course that they not reliable in the sense that wikipedia defines them, but can give some clues) are far from supporting it. Let's see:
Although it's not valid to extract a conclusion from only two media sources (in fact it would be WP:OR), both of them consider a definition of self-government that equals a self-governing territory to one controlling defence and foreign affairs (BBC does not say simply "Gibraltar is self-governing"; The Telegraph does not talk about "complete self-government")
On the other hand, if you consider the source from the Government of Gibraltar:
It can be noticed that it supports clearly the definition supported by Justin and RedCoat ("Gibraltar is a democratically advanced, modern, economically independent and prosperous, and politically, administratively and legislatively self governing country"). Thus, it may lead to think that the statement "Gibraltar is a self-governing territory" is a POV in itself and therefore cannot be endorsed by our article.
Therefore, and regardless of the prominence of the self-governing issue, I support the option of qualifying the mention to "self-government" ("Gibraltar is self-governing in all areas except defence and foreign affairs"; there are other not so significant) in order to meet both the policy on reliable sources and on NPOV. Best regards -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar is described as "self-governing in all matters except defence and foreign policy". This is not my opinion but a fact that can be cited. To assert otherwise would be an error of fact.
The term "self-governing" cannot in common usage extend to defence and foreign policy as these responsibilities are, by definition, not internal matters. Were we to treat "self-governing" as an umbrella term that includes defence and foreign policy, it would follow that Andorra too is not "self-governing". This lands us in an absurd situation.
The Falkland Islands article on Wikipedia has used "self-governing" for a number of years and no one has thus far raised an eyebrow. Similarly, when the United Kingdom imposed direct rule in the Turks and Caicos Islands, it is interesting to note that WP:ITN run the headline as follows:
Unsurprisingly, no one raised an eyebrow. This, if anything, reflects the degree to which the word "self-governing" is used to refer to roughly analogous territories without let or hindrance. Quite why Gibraltar should be any different is beyond me.
I would also like to point out that Gibraltar's presence on a list does not make it non-self-governing. The list has been challenged and is, in the minds of many people, wholly unreliable. Those who are unfamiliar with the Committee of 24 can be forgiven for thinking "if the UN says Gibraltar is non-self-governing, then Gibraltar must indeed be non-self-governing". I would urge such readers to familiarise themselves with some of the criticisms that have been levelled at the list. This makes for a good overview (courtesy of User: Pfainuk)
For these reasons I believe Gibraltar should still be described as "self-governing", in much the same way as the Falklands are. However, I also believe that we should not omit a reference to the UN list, albeit in the politics section, along with its criticisms. -- RedCoat10 ( talk) 13:09, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
For benefit of those who have not been here for long, I should note that I was, for a few years, a long-standing editor of this article, but have not actually edited it since late July - largely because I got bored of the constant disputes over the same things in which nothing is actually achieved.
Let me start with the three questions:
Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion.
Should self-government remain in the lede long-term
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status
Redcoat10 references my points on the UN from August in his comment. I would still cite the same issues with that list. When it comes down to it, "Non-Self-Governing" in a UN context is jargon: the fact that a territory is a "Non-Self-Governing Territory" does not imply that it is a territory that does not govern itself (equally, the converse - the fact that a territory is not on the list does not imply that it does govern itself).
"Self-governing" is not implicit in "British Overseas Territory". There are several BOTs that are not self-governing. Mostly they are uninhabited or under military rule, but the Turks and Caicos Islands in particular are an example of a non-self-governing BOT.
But while there is no reason why we shouldn't say that Gibraltar is self-governing - and good reason to mention self-government - I equally don't see that it has to be mentioned right there in the very first sentence.
Ecemaml makes a couple of suggestions for wordings. I would argue that both give too much emphasis to this in the lede - as indeed does the current version. The first sentence and paragraph should be giving a very basic overview of the article. What it is, why it's important. Detail of the C24 is unnecessary, too much at this stage in the article. If there was a compromise version that we could put into a couple of words, then great. If not, then we can and should move it elsewhere in the lede.
Restricting my changes to this dispute in particular, I would suggest:
Gibraltar (pronounced /dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. [9] The territory covers 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) and shares a land border with Spain to the north. Gibraltar has historically been an important base for the British Armed Forces and is the site of a Royal Navy base.
According to the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008, which measures the stability of 235 countries, territories and political entities in the world, Gibraltar is the 5th most stable territory worldwide, and the highest ranked British territory. The ratings are based on five fundamental categories: political, social, economic, external and military and security. [10]
The sovereignty of Gibraltar has been a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations. Gibraltar was ceded by Spain to the Crown of Great Britain in perpetuity, under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, though Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.Cite error: There are
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). The overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians strongly oppose this, along with any proposal of shared sovereignty. [11] [12] The British government has stated that it is committed to respecting the Gibraltarians' wishes. [13]
Though Gibraltar is self-governing in all areas except foreign affairs and defence, [14] it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories due to the Spanish claim. [15]
Thoughts? Pfainuk talk 14:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Support. In spite of my initial proposal (which is rather similar but with a different approach on the "importance" of the statements), this one seems extremely simple and a good compromise agreement. -- Ecemaml ( talk) 15:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (pronounced
/dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a
British overseas territory located on the southern end of the
Iberian Peninsula and
Europe at the entrance of the
Mediterranean overlooking (...)
Though Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [45], it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories. [16] |
” |
Would anybody have a problem with that? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 19:10, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
OK. I'll toss in my two cents rather than screaming 'Pox on all your houses for the extra drama'. I believe that Gibraltar is effectivly self governing, lets get that straight from the start. That is reality. Now. This is wikipedia, so lets ignore reality. We care about verification rather than reality. It is certainly a British Overseas Territory and that is cieable. I believe one could make a good argument for the neutral (and I do believe citable) explanation being that it is a 'British Overseas Territory with limited self-governance'. Plenty of alternatives out there.
While we are here, can we please stake through the heart that the UN view is automatically neutral or never the view of one memberstate repeated through an organ, and also stop saying 'UN view' unless it comes from the General Assembly, Security Council or UNSG (even the last I'm dubious on). The UN has clear objectives and stated beliefs and ideologies. This makes it as biased as any other organisation. I say this not to attack the UN (I am a rather large fan) but because the assumption is false and is unacademic.
So, what is my view? We should certainly cover the controversy. We also need to establish compromise wording for the start. The current wording could be far too resolute and thus glossing over the problem. 'Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territoy that is classified as 'Self Governing' by the British, though this is disputed' or somesuch, assuming we can cite. -- Narson ~ Talk • 14:41, 23 January 2010 (UTC) (PfainUK edit conflicted me. I need an adult)
There is a recent book about Gibraltar called Sovereignty and the Stateless Nation Gibraltar in the Modern Legal Context (2009). [46] It might be helpful if someone could refer to this book to get a clear neutral description of the Gibraltan state. The Four Deuces ( talk) 16:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Don't think I would agree with you on whether the matter is central enough to be included in the lead sentence, I'd say it is, though I'm willing to agree it is to some extent a case of Wikipedia:lead fixation. There is actually a wealth of sources to support the view and the reasons behind it remaining on the UN C24 list. The thing is people have done their homework. The matter is of great interest to the people of Gibraltar, who are central to this, but strangely seem to be left out of much of the discussions on their future. As to stopping the arguing. The argument has become circular, you explain things again and again, and think you've made the impression on the person, then they'll simply turn around and parrot what they've said at the start. Its the devil's job to get someone outside interested enough to go through the arguments enough to realise that its a case of gaming the system to skew the article to favour a particular POV. The intention then becomes clear, to block the page with tendentious arguments, drive away the moderate editors, and skew the article in a particular direction. Justin talk 18:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
If you can't choose whether to have your own army, whether to declare war, or whether to establish any treaty that you wish with other states, then clearly you are not self-governing in all respects, and it would be misleading to imply that you are by using "self-governing" with no disclaimer. On the other hand, if you manage domestic matters such as education, transport, justice and housing then you are self-governing in those respects. That is why sources use the statement "self-governing except in matters relating to defence and foreign affairs". My vote is to simply state in the first sentence that "Gibraltar is a BOT". (No BOT is self-governing in relation to defence and foreign affairs). And then, in the politics section, discuss where it is self-governing, and alongside that, mention the UN list. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
A few days ago I explained my opinion on this very issue in the Administrator's noticeboard.
The degree of self-governance exerted by Gibraltar's institutions is, at least, disputed amongst distinct sources. So far, I've seen some of them explicitly stating that Gibraltar isn't self-governing ( UN), and some qualifying the BOT as self-governing with the exception of a few matters -such as defence- or, more often, those currently attributed to HM Governor by the Constitution Order ( Britannica, for instance).
Reference to HM Governor's powers as endorsed by the 2006 Gibraltar Constitution Order. |
---|
|
In short, I agree with The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick's comment above: from my perspective, the lede isn't the best place to portray such details; the Politics section being more apropriate. Speaking of which, I've noticed this latter addition to it. As it stands now, it's both unreferenced (althought part of it is a direct transcript of the -equally disputed- Olivenza article) and original research, and shouldn't be in the article in my opinion.
Finally, and along the same lines, the Jane's Country Risk Ratings 2008 displayed in the lead section should be placed in the economy section, if considered relevant enough to even appear in the article (which I don't, by the way). -- Cremallera ( talk) 18:39, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
unindent
A couple of comments
The section about Ceuta and Melila is referenced, Olivenza could be removed.
Secondly regarding NPA, Gibnews you were out of order with the comment, Cremallera's argument isn't sustainable, since the Spanish Head of State is also unelected for one, lets comment on the argument not the person. RHoPF, please, you know you're not the person to speak to Gibnews on this, lets not add petrol to the fire please. For once the discussion has been reasonably well-tempered.
Cremallera, if Gibnews upsets you let me know and I'll bang heads. Justin talk 21:42, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The thrust of the arguments against including it are
a) The UN C24 List b) Spain disputes that Gibraltar is self-governing c) Gibraltar has a Governor or does not have full control of its defence or foreign relations
Taking each one in turn. A) The UN C24 List
The UN defines self-government according to:
What the UN classifies as self-government actually bears no relation to what responsibility a territory has for governing itself. Secondly the fact that Gibraltar remains on the list is solely due to Spanish lobbying, nothing whatsoever to do with the level or otherwise of self-government. No one objects to mentioning this I note. It does not of itself invalidate the statement that Gibraltar is self-governing.
Next B) Spain disputes that Gibraltar is self-governing.
Let us turn to the Flat Earth Society for a parallel. Do we edit Earth to state that it is round or maybe flat according to some POV. No, we give due prominence to such views and Spain is disputing it for dogmatic reasons, unrelated to whether Gibraltar is self-governing. Stating Gibraltar is self-governing and mentioning the fact it remains on the UN C24 list covers this point.
C) Gibraltar is not responsible for its defence or foreign relations. So what. "Self-governing" describes a territory that administers its own affairs but is not completely sovereign or independent. The very use of the phrase self-government means that Gibraltar is not responsible for external affairs.
The fact that Gibraltar retains a Governor is neither here nor there in regards to self-government, right now Gibraltar governs itself through the GoG. If the Governor dissolves the GoG and imposes direct rule, then it changes but we don't change that now. If the unelected Head of State argument is brought to bear, Spain has an unelected Head of State in Juan Carlos I. SO is Spain self-governing or not?
The other argument is that NPOV requires us to be neutral and if Spain disputes this, then mentioning it is not neutral. This is the most fatuous argument of them all. IF we don't mention that Gibraltar is self-governing, we are not being neutral. We are in fact favouring the POV that seeks to diminish that GoG in order to advance a territorial claim.
Thus far a sustainable argument to excise self-government has not been put forward. A neutral summary is that Gibraltar is self-governing but remains on the UN C24 list for reasons related to the Spanish territorial claim. Lets leave it at that. Justin talk 21:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
And if I may borrow someone else words, "The British sources questioned as 'partisan' are quite reliable as they only describe the naked fact of a political decision, not a posture.". Thanks,
Justin
talk
22:41, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I was attracted here by an RfC on a different point, but comment on Guy's questions anyway:
Question 1 Should self-government remain in the lead sentence, supporting only one of the two POVs (whichever it might be) during discussion?
No, it should not.
Question 2 Should self-government remain in the lede long-term?
No, the statement that Gibraltar is a BOT is sufficient.
Question 3
What form of words will correctly and neutrally cover the disputed status?
It should start with the constitutional position with the extent to which Gibraltar is self-governing, mention any limits, and then mention the "UN" and any other rhetorical positions in reference to available respectable definitions of self-government. Given the recency of the relevant constitutional changes this may be difficult to do from conventional academic sources, but I note that ignorance is not the problem in editing this article; there are editors who I'm sure can provide reputable secondary sources for all of this. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 07:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar is a disputed territory administered by Great Britain and claimed by Spain. As several editors have pointed out, there are several sources that say Gibralar has some self-government (in matters except defense and foreign policy) and others that it does not (for example the UN List of Non-Self-Governing Territories). Objectively therefore, Gibraltar is partly self-governing at best. This is the wording I suggested in the Talk Page. However some editors reject this step towards neutrality, and continue pushing their POV. As explained, this is only a small example of the general bias in the Gibraltar article. Other POV's will need to be addressed at a later date. In this case, by calling an overseas territory "self-governing" and not explaining the limitations of the term, it subtly justifies its colonial status (or foreign rule). The question is how to solve this.
First, editors should avoid editing the article while the discussion is going on. I agree with Guy that any editor associated with either POV should be topic banned or blocked if they edit the contentious text during the period of the RfC. Second, I agree with Ecemaml's first proposed text which includes both sides of the argument:
However, in order to reach a consensus, the best option is probably to take the self-governing issue off the lead sentence, as JzG originally suggested. I believe Tbsdy, Pfainuk, Fut.Perf., The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick and Cremallera have all supported this suggestion. JCRB ( talk) 01:03, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Gibnews, could it be possible a) stop assuming bad faith in other participants (may some of them have an agenda; possibly most of them haven't; in the same way you might or not have an agenda... that is, those uncivil remarks help no one); b) stop assuming that only one nationality is allowed (or better, forbidden) to write in this article. Believe or not, but Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia everybody can edit. Best regard -- Ecemaml ( talk) 21:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Indeed it does. Justin, you and Gibnews might like to consider the prospect of a clearly-restrained, carefully-NPOV, low-prominence description of the issue, as suggested by other editors. And ask yourselves if such an approach actually strengthens your underlying position on the politics and legalities. To put it another way, does the solution suggested by other editors make clear the weakness of certain claims over Gibraltar? I think it does, and that this solution may apply to other issues. I'll be back to San Roque when we've settled this one, but I suggest that in general giving a careful unbiased summary of feeble arguments is quite a good way to make their feebleness apparent. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I can see that, so far, there are three options that have been proposed: 1) keep the current lead as it is; 2) keep the reference to self-government but with the detail of the exceptions to self-government and mentioning the UN list; 3) return to the version pre-April 2009 just saying that "Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory".
IMO, the best option is number 3, because: the term British Overseas Territory already implies a degree of self-government (in inhabited territories), is neutral (in that it does not give more weight to one POV or other regarding self-government) and less verbose.
As a second option, I would support number 2. The thing here is that we have to find a text that supports all POVs about the exceptions to self-government in Gibraltar. So far, I have seen different POVs on the exceptions from relevant sources, for example:
Of all those different versions, you can see that the common denominator is that Gibraltar has a very important level of internal self-government (or, as the UK House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee puts it "almost complete internal self-government"). I don't think that anyone or any source has said anything that may disagree with that statement.
Therefore, I propose the following text:
“ | Gibraltar (pronounced
/dʒɨˈbrɔːltər/) is a
British overseas territory located on the southern end of the
Iberian Peninsula and
Europe at the entrance of the
Mediterranean overlooking (...)
According to the Jane's (...)
The sovereignty of Gibraltar has been (...) Though Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [57], it remains on the UN list of non-self-governing territories. [17] |
” |
Would anybody have a problem with that? Any suggestions? Thanks. -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 09:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC) "IMO, the best option is number 3", "As a second option, I would support number 3", which I don't find surprising in any way shape or form. Justin talk 12:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Hi all.
I am not involved at all on this issue, and I am not Spanish nor English. I don't understand why it is important to decide whether Gibraltar is self-governing or not, since self governing seems to be more an international law concept than a descriptive concept.
Why not write the first paragraph of the introduction in a purely descriptive manner, something like this:
"Gibraltar is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula and Europe at the entrance of the Mediterranean overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. The territory benefits from a very large autonomy, except in matters of diplomacy and defense."
And then, at the paragraph about "politics", the reader has already a full legal information:
"Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories (as it was nominated by the UK in 1947) considered annually by the United Nations Committee on Decolonization, though politicians both from the British Foreign Office and Gibraltar wish to see it removed citing that Gibraltar has effectively been decolonised."
Voui ( talk) 22:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the government of a country, nation, etc., by its own people 2. the state of being self-controlled 3. an archaic term for self-control self-governed adj self-governing adj
UNIDENT
I disagree, but I find your attitude totally lovable (you remind me of my discussions with my children...) ; - )
About the UN: Really, Gibnews, do you seriously mean that you have taken a look at the link to the UN website (which I've posted like 15 times) where it says "Non Self-Governing Territories listed by General Assembly 2002" AND YET you insist that the UN does not say anything? Come on, my friend, take a look at it and tell me which part of "NSGT-LISTED-BY-GENERAL-ASSEMBLY-2002" you don't understand. (you are right about one thing, though: the General Assembly has not changed its position on Gibraltar since the 60s, although it has quite accurately updated the Constitutional changes in its reports; why no changes in position? I don't know but those are the facts...)
About the UN procedures: I imagine that they are pretty Kafkian (the bigger the organisation and the more far away the "owners" or "taxpayers" the more it is so, like in the EU Commission, etc.), but it is a notable source...
About all the rest of sources: What part of the text "self-governing-EXCEPT-FOR" is difficult for you to connect with the concept that Gibraltar's self-government is not full or complete?
No bad feelings. Please read the sources and then we talk. Thanks! -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 12:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |edition=
has extra text (
help):
“ | The open frontier helped to increase the Spanish share, and naval links with Minorca produced the small Minorcan contingent. | ” |
Gibraltar is an overseas territory of the United Kingdom and is self-governing in all matters but defence.