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Antetokounmpo is a naturalized citizen of both Greece and Nigeria, which means he has two nationalities, not just one. The infobox and lede need to state both of his nationalities in chronological order to be in line with WP:NPOV. It is factually incorrect as it stands right now. [1] [2] [3] [4] Retrofan781 ( talk) 22:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Retrofan781:: is there a reason why you deleted his widely used nickname from the lead? please put it back in ffs. its bad enough already that forcefully put nigerian in there even though 3 different people had reverted it FMSky ( talk) 02:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Comment:
Retrofan781 has violated Wikipedia's rules and I had to throw a warning on his Talk page for editwarring with several other editors and breaking the 3 Rever Rule:
[1]. I highly recommend that the particular editor refrains from further disruptive edit warrings with others who may not share his biased edits and seek
WP:CONSENSUS for applying the chances they seek to the article, or else I will report them to the ANI.
Now, regarding Giannis Antetokounmpo, editor Retrofan is showing clear signs of bias here because they are not only violating
WP:ETHNICITY guidelines for the lead section of the article, but also they have removed information not related to the ethnicity, such as the nickname "Greek Freak". WP:ETHNICITY clearly states that: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME.
" The country, region or territory the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, are Greece, not Nigeria. Giannis was born in Greece, grew and lived there in his whole life before becoming famous and traveling to the USA. His fame and career begun in Greece when he was teenager. When he became 23 years old, he emigrated to the United States. The Nigerian passport was given to him by the time he emigrated to the USA and does not dictate what Giannis's country of birth, nationality and permanent residence were. Many people may have multiple passports for business or career purposes, but Wikipedia has to be careful here to not confuse the nationality of people and the country they were born and resided in, with the passports they may get later in their lives as part of their careers. Furthermore it should not be neglected that that Giannis visited his parent's homeland, Nigeria, only after he emigrated to the US where he continued his career, and the visit was a brief one: he doesn't reside here nor was part of his career that made him notable. The reason of the visit to Nigeria was a personal one: to see his grandparents and his family's roots. Simple as that. A single visit to Nigeria for 24 hours, IMO, does not suffice to overwrite everything else about Giannis's life, be it birthplace, residence, career and notability. Retrofan781 also removed without any valid explanation the nickname "Greek Freak" Giannis has obtained and is part of his notability, which shows the editor's edits have nothing to do with facts and sources. This is simply editorial bias, and this is unacceptable.
The editor had cited
WP:NPOV to justify their edit warring and particularly the part where it says "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
" to convince us that editorial opinion of the other editors who disagree with their edits, do not matter here; only their own editorial opinion matters, and that no consensus is required for their problematic edits because they are "right" and the rest of us who disagree with that editor, are "wrong". But I am afraid this is not the purpose of the NPOV policy. The NPOV policy is to make sure that all the information is presented neutrally to the article, and it already is: information about Giannis's Nigerian roots are already covered by the article. Noting Giannis's birthplace and home of residence was Greece, should not be perceived as POV, because it is a fact and has nothing to do with neutrality here.
For these aforementioned reasons, when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted. I suggest the editor Retrofan781 refrains from further unconstructive edits such as these, and avoids reinstating these edits unless they 1) have the required consensus and 2) they present us strong and indisputable sources confirming that Nigeria was Gianni's birthplace and not Greece, that he lived in Nigeria and not Greece, and that his career and notability begun in Nigeria and not Greece, and last, Nigeria is somehow more weighting on Gianni's notability other than being of Nigerian descent from his parents's side, to warrant inclusion to the lead section. I am afraid, such sources do not exist, as I have searched extensively both the sources present on the article and on the web but I wouldn't find any. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 05:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
... when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted ...It's premature to say what the consensus will be when the article is unlocked. Regards.— Bagumba ( talk) 07:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The Antetokounmpo brothers, Greek citizens- quoted text:
For his part, their agent, Giorgos Dimitropoulos stressed: "The process of naturalization of Thanasis and Yannis was completed and the children took Greek citizenship.) To obtain Greek citizenship, one person has to meet very specific requirements as explained in the Greek Ministry of Internal Affairs: [3] including being born or having lived in Greece for a long time. Which again, is not about Passports, but naturalization. Passports have different requirements.
Comment: considering that several days have passed but the editor Retrofan781 has failed to address the issues raised here in the talk page and provide adequate answers regarding the problematic changes on the article, and considering that no stronger and more solid sources WP:VERIFYING these changes/claims were provided, considering that the changes aren't in line with the guidelines such as WP:ETHNICITY and are against the common rationale in Wikipedia, and considering that there is no whatsoever WP:CONSENSUS for these edits to stay, their changes have now been reverted: [4]. The editor is welcome to resume this talk page discussion in the future. However they ought to refrain from reinstating the same changes again without addressing the issues pointed here and achieving a minimal consensus first. Have a nice day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:49, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
After winning NBA championships in 2021. Giannis, during the press conference, said he represents Nigeria and Greece and he went on to say, "yes, it can be done". I don't see why we have to force him into "your" own box Amaekuma ( talk) 11:21, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section.Seems like the prose already stated that he's got dual citizenship. I updated the infobox to reflect this as well.— Bagumba ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Here is the link to the interview stated above. [1] He said it on 2:30 Amaekuma ( talk) 11:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Bagumba: A man has stated himself what he is, Here is another link, an article where he explicitly calls himself a "Nigerian-Greek". [2] What do you mean provide you sources? Hearing it from the player's mouth himself isn't good enough? Amaekuma ( talk) 12:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Comment: Currently, the article lede violates WP:MOSETHNICITY since Giannis never lived in Nigeria. He only visited the country for a couple of days but that doesn't make that as noteworthy mentioning on the lede. His only connection to Nigeria is through his family, but Wikipedia cannot include his family's roots on Gianni's lede, in the sentence about his own nationality. Giannis's family roots should be reflected through his parents provided that it is notable (which the lede already does mention since it is notable), on the main body of the article, or and/or the respective articles about his ancestors, provided that their articles do exist in Wikipedia as well.
Also editors have to bear in mind that Giannis's rise to notability is due to his basketball skills. However his rise to fame was accomplished while he played and made a career on Greek and American soil only, not Nigerian; Per WP:RS, Giannis played for Greece's national team, and in the NBA (USA) only. Since he never played for Nigeria, it wasn't in Nigeria that he rose to fame that would otherwise be reasonable to mention his Nigerian ethnicity on Lede.
Editors can not expect that the Wikipedia's guidelines are applied selectively. Like how it was done for all other people of dual citizenship in Wikipedia, such as Tom Hanks (has dual American-Greek citizenship) and Rita Ora (dual British-Albanian citizenship), and many others, the same is true for Giannis as well. WP:MOSETHNICITY has been violated and the changes will be reverted. If any editors here believe that lede should reflect Nigerian nationality, then they should take the discussion to the talk page of the relevant policy and request amendment, or even open a RfC here about Giannis's dual citizenship if they believe that WP:MOSETHNICITY favors their position.
Edit: the disputed addition has now been removed both due to the lack of clear talk page WP:CONSENSUS and due to not being policy-compliant (See WP:MOSETHNICITY). Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 13:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included.". Let alone inclusion in an way that violates the other guidelines such as WP:MOSETHNICITY which states that "
the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.", criteria which Nigerian nationality does not meet since he was born and grew in Greece where he became notable before he migrated to USA to continue his career at NBA. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Restore long-standing consensus version.on your edit summary, so I will kindly ask, once more time to provide me link of that consensus. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Bagumba's wrong interception of WP:MOSETHNICITY...: He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?— Bagumba ( talk) 11:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?. I am afraid Wikipedia functions by a set of rules, not by personal logics, which is what led us to this dispute here. There is no precedence in Wikipedia where all nationalities are mentioned on ledes just because people have multiple citizenships; only the one under which they became notable. Lede has to be compact and summarize only the things that are the most notable about that said person: Giannis is notable for his Nigerian origin, not his Nigerian nationality. He wasn't born in Nigeria, nor lived there. Has Nigerian origin only through his parents. Therefore Lede should reflect that by mentioning his Greek nationality and Nigerian origin through his parents (which it already does). Therefore, your addition of Nigerian nationality despite Wikipedia's guidelines telling you to not do that is not an improvement. The guideline says only the nationality in the country, region or territory the person lived or lives when he became prominent is mentioned on lede. Rest (such as honorary nationalities and citizenships), go to main body instead.
will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident;which per WP:RS is USA, not Nigeria. or,
if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.which per WP:RS is Greece, not Nigeria.
Consensus version because it's been in the article for well over half a year": I find it problematic, as problematic as your actions, because the History log of the article shows you both WP:EDITWARred your preferred version to the article: [6] [7] [8] [9], not by seeking talk page consensus properly, which should have been done by notifying/{{Ping}}ing the involved parties in this old (July 2021) Talk Page discussion which you revived much later, on May 2022 and thus we missed our chance to participate -if we wished- prior to passing these changes on the article. It was only thanks to the fellow editor coming to my talk page that I was notified [10]. I am afraid this is not how things are done in Wikipedia and no proper consensus can come from that. When trying to change the consensus by reviving the old talk thread where other editors participated at, then, you ought to notify/ping them properly so that the disputed changes can be discussed first. Only this way WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE in line with Wikipedia's policies. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 14:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I've skimmed your almost-6kb wall-of-text and am wondering how come we were supposed to ping you in May 2022 but that same requirement didn't extend to you in January '23. /shrug. Nor have I have edit-warred. I don't know what your obsession is with keeping '-Nigerian' out of the lede, but per my reading of MOS:ETHNICITY it is absolutely WP:DUE for inclusion. Likewise, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY would certainly mean it warrants inclusion. Also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a guideline - not a "rule" or a policy. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread...: There is no requirement for that. However, if people are being notified on a previously dead topic, all participants should be notified, not a select few based on their known opinions, per WP:CANVASS. — Bagumba ( talk) 16:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
notify the participants of that thread" as meaning certain participants and not all? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 17:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@
SilentResident: You had stated earlier that if ...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section.
Do you still support that?—
Bagumba (
talk)
16:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I have found no information about Giannis's naturalization in Nigeria at all. If Retrofan781 is able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section." which I still stand by and I will support inclusion.
Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread...- last comment above before yesterday was on 22 May 2022. By Bagumba. Next comment - or "necro-posting", if you like - was by you, SilentResident, yesterday. So by your logic, it was your responsibility to ping everyone. By some guideline or policy you've not mentioned. You're being hypocritical here, even without taking your canvassing into account. Bottom line here is the dude identifies as Greek-Nigerian, has dual citizenship, we spend a fair bit of text in the body discussing his nationality, and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
In our case here, no sources back then did confirm that Giannis was naturalised in Greece or that he originated from Nigeria.The article is currently sourced that he's a dual citizen. Do you currently support its inclusion in the lead and inbobox? — Bagumba ( talk) 17:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
It verifies only that he is owner of multiple nationalities, but not his naturalisation.: Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory.— Bagumba ( talk) 23:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm not talking about conspiracies but reflecting on the WP:RSwhich carefully refrains from implying something you have tried...: The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic facts, I see no benefit to discussing guidelines and policies. — Bagumba ( talk) 05:14, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic factsYes and no. He did get honorary citizenship but he wasn't naturalised in Nigeria to call him Nigerian. The vast majority of the sources mention him just as a Greek, not as Nigerian, even though he holds dual citizenship. Wikipedia reflects on sources, not on your personal POV. Trying to give WP:UNDUE weight to the second, honorary nationality, something which even the sources avoid doing, is a violation of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Even the other international encyclopedias such as Britannica [11] do not do what you are trying to do here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
...do not do what you are trying to do here.: I'm trying to reach an agreement on the facts first. It seems like WP:OR on your part to ignore the cited sources in the body that call him a dual citizen. If we cannot agree on the facts first, it is fruitless to discuss which guidelines apply to the lead, and what is undue or not. — Bagumba ( talk) 15:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: To all the editors: Despite repeatedly asking for
WP:RS verifying that the second citizenship is
WP:DUE 1) through birth, 2) through living, 3) through events (i.e got famous for his skills or for playing in teams) in the second citizenship's country, no such sources were provided. Therefore, I will be initiating a RfC soon, where the Wiki community will have a chance to participate and decide on the matter of dual citizenship for lede. whether we can go by the
WP:UNDUE version Bastun and Bagumba insist with, or restore the previous version and bring the lede in line with Wikipedia's
WP:NPOV policy and
WP:MOSETHNICITY guidelines, by reflecting on the vast majority of the
WP:RS which refer to him with just the nationality of the country he was born, lived, and became notable. Edit: Strinking as it may indeed be perceived as
Poisoning the well.
A note to those unfamiliar with the present dispute: both the dispute and the upcoming RfC, are about the application of MOSETHNICITY on the lead. Any mentions of dual citizenship in the main body are irrelevant to MOSETHNICITY and not disputed. Good day everyone. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: In preparation for a RfC, I want to make sure whether there is or not a precedent in Wikipedia where WP:MOSETHNICITY wasn't followed and a notable person is called by a dual nationality by pairing both the nationality of a country he was born, lived or played in its national team and became notable, with the nationality of another country where he didn't do any of that. After doing an extensive search across Wikipedia, I wouldn't find any other articles following the rationale used here for Giannis's article regarding dual citizenship on lede. I only stumbled upon this case here of Hakeem Olajuwon, another dual-national Nigerian basketball player just like Giannis. However unlike Giannis, Olajuwon is Nigerian by birth, therefore dual nationality makes sense under these criteria. Maybe I am just not good at researching? Or did I just miss any articles? Or there are indeed no articles constituting a precedent? Can someone help me find Wikipedia articles whose ledes follow the same rationale as Giannis's? Any help in finding such articles will be appreciated and will definitely help resolve the dispute we are having here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
...do me the favor and save your arguments for the RfC: Nobody WP:OWNs this discussion. — Bagumba ( talk) 00:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: In preparation of the RfC, while collecting sources, it stumbled to my attention new information absent from the article. According to the sources, [13] Giannis got both citizenships past his notability, and the one is related to the other. According to some sources, the one citizenship might in fact seen its bureaucratic procedures sped up exactly because of the lack of progress in the other citizenship and due to him urgently needing a passport to move abroad (USA). According to these sources always, he would have obtained the second citizenship first (Nigerian) and then the first citizenship (Greek) had not been for the Nigerian Embassy's technical problem with one of the equipment for issuing new passports. Therefore Giannis was stateless even after gaining his notability, and he only got both citizenships much later, roughly at the same time in his life.
Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE, therefore, in my opinion, it no longer requires a dispute resolution. At least not without any WP:RS contradicting that information.
However, the negative impression from resorting to edit-warring to get the disputed information added on the article, and without {{ping}}ing the dispute's opponents at the talk page, so that they would just agree between themselves, didn't help in the WP:CONSENSUS-building process which would potentially resolve the dispute sooner. To not mention the lack of effort in the talk page to acknowledge all opposing editors's legitimate WP:NPOV concerns, while respecting the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, such as WP:MOSETHNICITY. From now and on, I will be monitoring this article more closely. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 01:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE(emphasis in bold). There is a difference between not serious and no UNDUE. When you were asked, you failed to provide any sources eliminating the WP:UNDUE problem the content you wanted to stay, causes. The only positive thing that has been achieved in this discussion is me finding a source helping somewhat your position, but not eliminating the WP:UNDUE problems your addition causes. The only reason I didn't seek dispute resolution is due to the issue not being as egregious as I have originally thought. But this doesn't mean the issue has been resolved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:48, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
When you type in giannis and his Wikipedia pops up, it only lists one child- Liam, but not Maverick (he is mentioned though, in his personal like section). Just wanted to let Wikipedia know! Thanks 98.144.181.7 ( talk) 20:49, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
...it only lists one child...Which "it" are you referring to? As you mentioned, both are found at Giannis Antetokounmpo#Personal life.— Bagumba ( talk) 01:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
AnotherGuyThere why are you removing sourced content? You are in breach of 3rr and may end up blocked unless you discuss your changes and get consensus for them. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Earlier discussion is above at #Antetokounmpo's nationality in infobox/lede.— Bagumba ( talk) 14:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
"Greek national basketball team" is obsolete and is now succeeded by "Greece men's national basketball team". Senior is not necessary since "junior" teams are noted by year "under" in title. 2603:8000:D300:D0F:6532:152A:4FC5:D1EF ( talk) 05:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
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Pretty sure Giannis is an Arsenal fan not Inter Milan. He's been very vocal on Thierry Henry being one of his idols and how Arsenal were his favorite team growing up.
References
https://mobile.twitter.com/arsenal/status/1220767101037793280?lang=en
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/551970/Giannis-Antetokounmpo-Arsenal-fan-Chelsea-shirt
https://mobile.twitter.com/nbauk/status/965014263403302913?lang=en
https://mobile.twitter.com/Bucks/status/1425850061435592712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1425850061435592712%7Ctwgr%5E9da8505e384cd0e80928f28b112aaa51db988b7d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jsonline.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fnba%2Fbucks%2F2021%2F08%2F12%2Fbucks-surprise-giannis-message-idol-thierry-henry%2F8115702002%2F Justlikesleep ( talk) 05:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
In the "personal life" section where it says "being a supporter of Italian football club Inter Milan". It is not acccurate because Giannis supports Arsenal and idolized Thierry Henry growing up. See [14], [15], [16], [17], and [18]. Justlikesleep ( talk) 05:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Should we split the season sections for Giannis into individual sections for each season, for example, instead of having "Early years in Milwaukee (2013–2016)" we have sections for each year like (2013-14), (2014-15) and so on. MasterMatt12 💬 ● Contributions 20:58, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
This
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His name is pronounced wrong, it is "an-tety-coump-poh" as he said in an interview, his first name is also pronounced Guinness, like Guinness world records. Big big name ( talk) 04:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
history irrelevant 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC ( talk) 05:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Please include a full list of the Greek and Nigerian Primary Family of six from the Antetokoumpo Family (his brother who plays on the Milwaukee Buck’s basketball team as “#” 43, said or spoken English as sound iOS Yinnis Antetokoumpo. thank you! Anne Elizabeth Rachwal. 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC ( talk) 05:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 26 § Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo until a consensus is reached. Mazewaxie ( talk • contribs) 07:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
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Antetokounmpo is a naturalized citizen of both Greece and Nigeria, which means he has two nationalities, not just one. The infobox and lede need to state both of his nationalities in chronological order to be in line with WP:NPOV. It is factually incorrect as it stands right now. [1] [2] [3] [4] Retrofan781 ( talk) 22:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Retrofan781:: is there a reason why you deleted his widely used nickname from the lead? please put it back in ffs. its bad enough already that forcefully put nigerian in there even though 3 different people had reverted it FMSky ( talk) 02:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Comment:
Retrofan781 has violated Wikipedia's rules and I had to throw a warning on his Talk page for editwarring with several other editors and breaking the 3 Rever Rule:
[1]. I highly recommend that the particular editor refrains from further disruptive edit warrings with others who may not share his biased edits and seek
WP:CONSENSUS for applying the chances they seek to the article, or else I will report them to the ANI.
Now, regarding Giannis Antetokounmpo, editor Retrofan is showing clear signs of bias here because they are not only violating
WP:ETHNICITY guidelines for the lead section of the article, but also they have removed information not related to the ethnicity, such as the nickname "Greek Freak". WP:ETHNICITY clearly states that: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME.
" The country, region or territory the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, are Greece, not Nigeria. Giannis was born in Greece, grew and lived there in his whole life before becoming famous and traveling to the USA. His fame and career begun in Greece when he was teenager. When he became 23 years old, he emigrated to the United States. The Nigerian passport was given to him by the time he emigrated to the USA and does not dictate what Giannis's country of birth, nationality and permanent residence were. Many people may have multiple passports for business or career purposes, but Wikipedia has to be careful here to not confuse the nationality of people and the country they were born and resided in, with the passports they may get later in their lives as part of their careers. Furthermore it should not be neglected that that Giannis visited his parent's homeland, Nigeria, only after he emigrated to the US where he continued his career, and the visit was a brief one: he doesn't reside here nor was part of his career that made him notable. The reason of the visit to Nigeria was a personal one: to see his grandparents and his family's roots. Simple as that. A single visit to Nigeria for 24 hours, IMO, does not suffice to overwrite everything else about Giannis's life, be it birthplace, residence, career and notability. Retrofan781 also removed without any valid explanation the nickname "Greek Freak" Giannis has obtained and is part of his notability, which shows the editor's edits have nothing to do with facts and sources. This is simply editorial bias, and this is unacceptable.
The editor had cited
WP:NPOV to justify their edit warring and particularly the part where it says "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus.
" to convince us that editorial opinion of the other editors who disagree with their edits, do not matter here; only their own editorial opinion matters, and that no consensus is required for their problematic edits because they are "right" and the rest of us who disagree with that editor, are "wrong". But I am afraid this is not the purpose of the NPOV policy. The NPOV policy is to make sure that all the information is presented neutrally to the article, and it already is: information about Giannis's Nigerian roots are already covered by the article. Noting Giannis's birthplace and home of residence was Greece, should not be perceived as POV, because it is a fact and has nothing to do with neutrality here.
For these aforementioned reasons, when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted. I suggest the editor Retrofan781 refrains from further unconstructive edits such as these, and avoids reinstating these edits unless they 1) have the required consensus and 2) they present us strong and indisputable sources confirming that Nigeria was Gianni's birthplace and not Greece, that he lived in Nigeria and not Greece, and that his career and notability begun in Nigeria and not Greece, and last, Nigeria is somehow more weighting on Gianni's notability other than being of Nigerian descent from his parents's side, to warrant inclusion to the lead section. I am afraid, such sources do not exist, as I have searched extensively both the sources present on the article and on the web but I wouldn't find any. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 05:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
... when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted ...It's premature to say what the consensus will be when the article is unlocked. Regards.— Bagumba ( talk) 07:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
The Antetokounmpo brothers, Greek citizens- quoted text:
For his part, their agent, Giorgos Dimitropoulos stressed: "The process of naturalization of Thanasis and Yannis was completed and the children took Greek citizenship.) To obtain Greek citizenship, one person has to meet very specific requirements as explained in the Greek Ministry of Internal Affairs: [3] including being born or having lived in Greece for a long time. Which again, is not about Passports, but naturalization. Passports have different requirements.
Comment: considering that several days have passed but the editor Retrofan781 has failed to address the issues raised here in the talk page and provide adequate answers regarding the problematic changes on the article, and considering that no stronger and more solid sources WP:VERIFYING these changes/claims were provided, considering that the changes aren't in line with the guidelines such as WP:ETHNICITY and are against the common rationale in Wikipedia, and considering that there is no whatsoever WP:CONSENSUS for these edits to stay, their changes have now been reverted: [4]. The editor is welcome to resume this talk page discussion in the future. However they ought to refrain from reinstating the same changes again without addressing the issues pointed here and achieving a minimal consensus first. Have a nice day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:49, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
After winning NBA championships in 2021. Giannis, during the press conference, said he represents Nigeria and Greece and he went on to say, "yes, it can be done". I don't see why we have to force him into "your" own box Amaekuma ( talk) 11:21, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section.Seems like the prose already stated that he's got dual citizenship. I updated the infobox to reflect this as well.— Bagumba ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Here is the link to the interview stated above. [1] He said it on 2:30 Amaekuma ( talk) 11:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Bagumba: A man has stated himself what he is, Here is another link, an article where he explicitly calls himself a "Nigerian-Greek". [2] What do you mean provide you sources? Hearing it from the player's mouth himself isn't good enough? Amaekuma ( talk) 12:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Comment: Currently, the article lede violates WP:MOSETHNICITY since Giannis never lived in Nigeria. He only visited the country for a couple of days but that doesn't make that as noteworthy mentioning on the lede. His only connection to Nigeria is through his family, but Wikipedia cannot include his family's roots on Gianni's lede, in the sentence about his own nationality. Giannis's family roots should be reflected through his parents provided that it is notable (which the lede already does mention since it is notable), on the main body of the article, or and/or the respective articles about his ancestors, provided that their articles do exist in Wikipedia as well.
Also editors have to bear in mind that Giannis's rise to notability is due to his basketball skills. However his rise to fame was accomplished while he played and made a career on Greek and American soil only, not Nigerian; Per WP:RS, Giannis played for Greece's national team, and in the NBA (USA) only. Since he never played for Nigeria, it wasn't in Nigeria that he rose to fame that would otherwise be reasonable to mention his Nigerian ethnicity on Lede.
Editors can not expect that the Wikipedia's guidelines are applied selectively. Like how it was done for all other people of dual citizenship in Wikipedia, such as Tom Hanks (has dual American-Greek citizenship) and Rita Ora (dual British-Albanian citizenship), and many others, the same is true for Giannis as well. WP:MOSETHNICITY has been violated and the changes will be reverted. If any editors here believe that lede should reflect Nigerian nationality, then they should take the discussion to the talk page of the relevant policy and request amendment, or even open a RfC here about Giannis's dual citizenship if they believe that WP:MOSETHNICITY favors their position.
Edit: the disputed addition has now been removed both due to the lack of clear talk page WP:CONSENSUS and due to not being policy-compliant (See WP:MOSETHNICITY). Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 13:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included.". Let alone inclusion in an way that violates the other guidelines such as WP:MOSETHNICITY which states that "
the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.", criteria which Nigerian nationality does not meet since he was born and grew in Greece where he became notable before he migrated to USA to continue his career at NBA. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Restore long-standing consensus version.on your edit summary, so I will kindly ask, once more time to provide me link of that consensus. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Bagumba's wrong interception of WP:MOSETHNICITY...: He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?— Bagumba ( talk) 11:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?. I am afraid Wikipedia functions by a set of rules, not by personal logics, which is what led us to this dispute here. There is no precedence in Wikipedia where all nationalities are mentioned on ledes just because people have multiple citizenships; only the one under which they became notable. Lede has to be compact and summarize only the things that are the most notable about that said person: Giannis is notable for his Nigerian origin, not his Nigerian nationality. He wasn't born in Nigeria, nor lived there. Has Nigerian origin only through his parents. Therefore Lede should reflect that by mentioning his Greek nationality and Nigerian origin through his parents (which it already does). Therefore, your addition of Nigerian nationality despite Wikipedia's guidelines telling you to not do that is not an improvement. The guideline says only the nationality in the country, region or territory the person lived or lives when he became prominent is mentioned on lede. Rest (such as honorary nationalities and citizenships), go to main body instead.
will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident;which per WP:RS is USA, not Nigeria. or,
if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.which per WP:RS is Greece, not Nigeria.
Consensus version because it's been in the article for well over half a year": I find it problematic, as problematic as your actions, because the History log of the article shows you both WP:EDITWARred your preferred version to the article: [6] [7] [8] [9], not by seeking talk page consensus properly, which should have been done by notifying/{{Ping}}ing the involved parties in this old (July 2021) Talk Page discussion which you revived much later, on May 2022 and thus we missed our chance to participate -if we wished- prior to passing these changes on the article. It was only thanks to the fellow editor coming to my talk page that I was notified [10]. I am afraid this is not how things are done in Wikipedia and no proper consensus can come from that. When trying to change the consensus by reviving the old talk thread where other editors participated at, then, you ought to notify/ping them properly so that the disputed changes can be discussed first. Only this way WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE in line with Wikipedia's policies. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 14:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I've skimmed your almost-6kb wall-of-text and am wondering how come we were supposed to ping you in May 2022 but that same requirement didn't extend to you in January '23. /shrug. Nor have I have edit-warred. I don't know what your obsession is with keeping '-Nigerian' out of the lede, but per my reading of MOS:ETHNICITY it is absolutely WP:DUE for inclusion. Likewise, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY would certainly mean it warrants inclusion. Also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a guideline - not a "rule" or a policy. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread...: There is no requirement for that. However, if people are being notified on a previously dead topic, all participants should be notified, not a select few based on their known opinions, per WP:CANVASS. — Bagumba ( talk) 16:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
notify the participants of that thread" as meaning certain participants and not all? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 17:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@
SilentResident: You had stated earlier that if ...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section.
Do you still support that?—
Bagumba (
talk)
16:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I have found no information about Giannis's naturalization in Nigeria at all. If Retrofan781 is able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section." which I still stand by and I will support inclusion.
Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread...- last comment above before yesterday was on 22 May 2022. By Bagumba. Next comment - or "necro-posting", if you like - was by you, SilentResident, yesterday. So by your logic, it was your responsibility to ping everyone. By some guideline or policy you've not mentioned. You're being hypocritical here, even without taking your canvassing into account. Bottom line here is the dude identifies as Greek-Nigerian, has dual citizenship, we spend a fair bit of text in the body discussing his nationality, and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
In our case here, no sources back then did confirm that Giannis was naturalised in Greece or that he originated from Nigeria.The article is currently sourced that he's a dual citizen. Do you currently support its inclusion in the lead and inbobox? — Bagumba ( talk) 17:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
It verifies only that he is owner of multiple nationalities, but not his naturalisation.: Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory.— Bagumba ( talk) 23:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm not talking about conspiracies but reflecting on the WP:RSwhich carefully refrains from implying something you have tried...: The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic facts, I see no benefit to discussing guidelines and policies. — Bagumba ( talk) 05:14, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic factsYes and no. He did get honorary citizenship but he wasn't naturalised in Nigeria to call him Nigerian. The vast majority of the sources mention him just as a Greek, not as Nigerian, even though he holds dual citizenship. Wikipedia reflects on sources, not on your personal POV. Trying to give WP:UNDUE weight to the second, honorary nationality, something which even the sources avoid doing, is a violation of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Even the other international encyclopedias such as Britannica [11] do not do what you are trying to do here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
...do not do what you are trying to do here.: I'm trying to reach an agreement on the facts first. It seems like WP:OR on your part to ignore the cited sources in the body that call him a dual citizen. If we cannot agree on the facts first, it is fruitless to discuss which guidelines apply to the lead, and what is undue or not. — Bagumba ( talk) 15:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: To all the editors: Despite repeatedly asking for
WP:RS verifying that the second citizenship is
WP:DUE 1) through birth, 2) through living, 3) through events (i.e got famous for his skills or for playing in teams) in the second citizenship's country, no such sources were provided. Therefore, I will be initiating a RfC soon, where the Wiki community will have a chance to participate and decide on the matter of dual citizenship for lede. whether we can go by the
WP:UNDUE version Bastun and Bagumba insist with, or restore the previous version and bring the lede in line with Wikipedia's
WP:NPOV policy and
WP:MOSETHNICITY guidelines, by reflecting on the vast majority of the
WP:RS which refer to him with just the nationality of the country he was born, lived, and became notable. Edit: Strinking as it may indeed be perceived as
Poisoning the well.
A note to those unfamiliar with the present dispute: both the dispute and the upcoming RfC, are about the application of MOSETHNICITY on the lead. Any mentions of dual citizenship in the main body are irrelevant to MOSETHNICITY and not disputed. Good day everyone. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 16:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: In preparation for a RfC, I want to make sure whether there is or not a precedent in Wikipedia where WP:MOSETHNICITY wasn't followed and a notable person is called by a dual nationality by pairing both the nationality of a country he was born, lived or played in its national team and became notable, with the nationality of another country where he didn't do any of that. After doing an extensive search across Wikipedia, I wouldn't find any other articles following the rationale used here for Giannis's article regarding dual citizenship on lede. I only stumbled upon this case here of Hakeem Olajuwon, another dual-national Nigerian basketball player just like Giannis. However unlike Giannis, Olajuwon is Nigerian by birth, therefore dual nationality makes sense under these criteria. Maybe I am just not good at researching? Or did I just miss any articles? Or there are indeed no articles constituting a precedent? Can someone help me find Wikipedia articles whose ledes follow the same rationale as Giannis's? Any help in finding such articles will be appreciated and will definitely help resolve the dispute we are having here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
...do me the favor and save your arguments for the RfC: Nobody WP:OWNs this discussion. — Bagumba ( talk) 00:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Comment: In preparation of the RfC, while collecting sources, it stumbled to my attention new information absent from the article. According to the sources, [13] Giannis got both citizenships past his notability, and the one is related to the other. According to some sources, the one citizenship might in fact seen its bureaucratic procedures sped up exactly because of the lack of progress in the other citizenship and due to him urgently needing a passport to move abroad (USA). According to these sources always, he would have obtained the second citizenship first (Nigerian) and then the first citizenship (Greek) had not been for the Nigerian Embassy's technical problem with one of the equipment for issuing new passports. Therefore Giannis was stateless even after gaining his notability, and he only got both citizenships much later, roughly at the same time in his life.
Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE, therefore, in my opinion, it no longer requires a dispute resolution. At least not without any WP:RS contradicting that information.
However, the negative impression from resorting to edit-warring to get the disputed information added on the article, and without {{ping}}ing the dispute's opponents at the talk page, so that they would just agree between themselves, didn't help in the WP:CONSENSUS-building process which would potentially resolve the dispute sooner. To not mention the lack of effort in the talk page to acknowledge all opposing editors's legitimate WP:NPOV concerns, while respecting the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, such as WP:MOSETHNICITY. From now and on, I will be monitoring this article more closely. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 01:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE(emphasis in bold). There is a difference between not serious and no UNDUE. When you were asked, you failed to provide any sources eliminating the WP:UNDUE problem the content you wanted to stay, causes. The only positive thing that has been achieved in this discussion is me finding a source helping somewhat your position, but not eliminating the WP:UNDUE problems your addition causes. The only reason I didn't seek dispute resolution is due to the issue not being as egregious as I have originally thought. But this doesn't mean the issue has been resolved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:48, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
When you type in giannis and his Wikipedia pops up, it only lists one child- Liam, but not Maverick (he is mentioned though, in his personal like section). Just wanted to let Wikipedia know! Thanks 98.144.181.7 ( talk) 20:49, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
...it only lists one child...Which "it" are you referring to? As you mentioned, both are found at Giannis Antetokounmpo#Personal life.— Bagumba ( talk) 01:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
AnotherGuyThere why are you removing sourced content? You are in breach of 3rr and may end up blocked unless you discuss your changes and get consensus for them. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Earlier discussion is above at #Antetokounmpo's nationality in infobox/lede.— Bagumba ( talk) 14:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
"Greek national basketball team" is obsolete and is now succeeded by "Greece men's national basketball team". Senior is not necessary since "junior" teams are noted by year "under" in title. 2603:8000:D300:D0F:6532:152A:4FC5:D1EF ( talk) 05:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
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Pretty sure Giannis is an Arsenal fan not Inter Milan. He's been very vocal on Thierry Henry being one of his idols and how Arsenal were his favorite team growing up.
References
https://mobile.twitter.com/arsenal/status/1220767101037793280?lang=en
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/551970/Giannis-Antetokounmpo-Arsenal-fan-Chelsea-shirt
https://mobile.twitter.com/nbauk/status/965014263403302913?lang=en
https://mobile.twitter.com/Bucks/status/1425850061435592712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1425850061435592712%7Ctwgr%5E9da8505e384cd0e80928f28b112aaa51db988b7d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jsonline.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fnba%2Fbucks%2F2021%2F08%2F12%2Fbucks-surprise-giannis-message-idol-thierry-henry%2F8115702002%2F Justlikesleep ( talk) 05:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
In the "personal life" section where it says "being a supporter of Italian football club Inter Milan". It is not acccurate because Giannis supports Arsenal and idolized Thierry Henry growing up. See [14], [15], [16], [17], and [18]. Justlikesleep ( talk) 05:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Should we split the season sections for Giannis into individual sections for each season, for example, instead of having "Early years in Milwaukee (2013–2016)" we have sections for each year like (2013-14), (2014-15) and so on. MasterMatt12 💬 ● Contributions 20:58, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
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His name is pronounced wrong, it is "an-tety-coump-poh" as he said in an interview, his first name is also pronounced Guinness, like Guinness world records. Big big name ( talk) 04:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
history irrelevant 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC ( talk) 05:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
Please include a full list of the Greek and Nigerian Primary Family of six from the Antetokoumpo Family (his brother who plays on the Milwaukee Buck’s basketball team as “#” 43, said or spoken English as sound iOS Yinnis Antetokoumpo. thank you! Anne Elizabeth Rachwal. 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC ( talk) 05:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 26 § Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo until a consensus is reached. Mazewaxie ( talk • contribs) 07:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)