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It's a little bit "off" to say that "a region named Germania has been known and documented since 100 AD" since it sound's like it was a country of some sort named that by the inhabitans themselves but this was however just a very diffuse term that the romans used for the area where there lived germanic peoples, which streched all over northern Europe, this article makes it sound like it was specifically located were Germany is today, which is wrong. Some Romans even confused celtic areas for being germanic, so it was very undefinite of what area it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaggsan ( talk • contribs) 12:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A BBC poll from April 2008 shows, that 20 % of Germans think the US has a mainly positive influence in the world, while 72 % think its mainly negativ ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/04_april/02/usa.pdf). It would be great if someone could add this to the footnote section of the article. I think its fair to say, that relations cooled significant not relative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.194.160 ( talk) 09:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as West-central Europe (as mentioned in the introduction)?!? Shouldn't it be just Central Europe ?-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 22:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Here: "(roughly translated as civilian service) , or a longer"... The space before the comma is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.220.129.203 ( talk) 01:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The sentence "The Germany is divided into six states" is incorrect because the six states build the Federal Republic! That is a question of legal quality! The German states could exist without the Federal republic, but the Federal Republic couldn't exist without the states!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.127.54 ( talk) 20:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It is also wrong because Germany has 16 states forming the Bundesrepublik (federal republic) Xuthor ( talk) 00:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I would express it in that way: the Federal Republic of Germany is divided into sixteen German states("Länder") Xuthor ( talk) 01:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Germany is not divided into states, the states (who are older) form together the Federal Republic of Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.180 ( talk) 11:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Does any one know what the current jewish population is in Germany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.17.219.250 ( talk) 00:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, including many officials of the Whermacht during the Nazi period had Jewish ancestry, even direct and known Jewish ancestry as showed by Wikipedia in the article "German Blood Certificate": including Field Marshall Erhard Milch, personnal friend of Hermann Göring who falsified his records to hide the fact that Milch´s father was Jew...it would make a very interesting movie: the relationship of Hermann Goring and his Jewish friends. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.49.59 ( talk) 17:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently the enviroment section reads to blame other countries for Germany's high carbon dioxide emissions, and I take aim at the "we are not responsible" clause that this basically is.
The US, at one time, was a massive exporter as well, and today most of our carbon emissions are from cars, which people use to go shopping and to work, to buy goods from foreign countries. Can it be said then that we are not responsible for these emissions, as we would not go shopping for them if foreign countries did not export?
Or what about the "work" part? Currently US Financial institutions are highly involved in financing many important projects across the globe: are the emissions created by people moving to and from work at these institutions the fault of the other countries?
No. The US is responsible for the carbon emissions it makes, regardless of what reason its making them. Similarly, Germany is accountable for the fact it has such high emissions.
For now, I am deleting that little clause out of the "enviroment" section. And until we have come to a reasonable agreement that it should be there (beyond the base reasoning currently involved), I think I'll delete any such attempts to put it back. Scryer_360 ( talk) 21:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
No, where in my statements do I say that? I mean the US wouldn't produce as many carbon emissions if it was not part of the global economy, but, similar to Germany, it is still responsible for the emissions it makes regardless of that fact. The same is said for Germany: it is responsible for its emissions, even if its goods are mainly consumed in other countries.
It also stands to reason that, of all things, the greatest strides to reduce emissions must be made at the source of the greatest emissions. Hence, the biggest reductions need to come in places like Germany, like the USA, but also like China and Japan. The environment doesn't know what "per capita" means. Signed by Scryer_360, who for some reason is being failed by the log in link... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.91.137.171 ( talk) 04:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the point is the contemporary need for many Germans to blame the USA for everything bad in the world. A curious need considering that German Democracy and the critical rebuilding of Germany post WW II are thanks to the Americans. Germany is itself a great economic power because of it's own qualities as a modern industrial nation and it's own great business culture-- but German Democracy and the huge post-war economic lift-up make many German complaints about the USA look ridiculous if not even childish. Perhaps a section in the article on post Word War II German arrogance should be included, certainly the USA has it's arrogance, but so does Germany and so do many Germans.
24.8.106.182 ( talk) 13:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Germany and I'm wondering a little bit. I don't know the article in the earlier composition and what is different now. But in Germany we're not discussing whether we are responsible for our CO2 output and other pollution, we know we are. There are many problems in reducing pollution as an industrial state and there are many laws (e.g. the EU set since many years pollution standards for cars known as "Euro-Norm" 1/2/3... which is linked with higher taxes for more polluting cars) that reduces pollution more and more, but a growing economy leads in the other direction. But nobody here would say that other states are responible for our pollution. We know our responsibility and try to be a "good" pollution-reducer. But whatever, politics is mostly more slowly than the conviction of the people that economic growth and a healthy enviroment are no contrast. To 24.8.106.182: I think this is no place to discuss this. And no sentence should be wrote in wikipedia, because the "object" of description is so arrogant. But let me tell this: Both Countries (like all countries) have a historical background and all of us would be well advised to know this background of each other and to tolerate what it created and try to understand the other ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.189.221 ( talk) 21:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
No offense to the USA, but i think you should not bring that on table, cause if you can drive with your bicycle, you rather take the car. And your cars, sorry, but when they need around 10- 20 Litres/100kmh then you might think about that. And as well look up what we do for the enviroment, renewable energie and so on. And now, the USA starts slowly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
At least Germany should be thankful to the US, which is nowadays the `bad fella´ of the global-media-discussion. After two disastrous enequities like the WW1 and WW2, germans should be more than thankful for their state in the world! My grandmother lost eight brothers(!!!) in 1915 and both of my grandfathers survived the time after 1945! So I am a product of WW2, which urged my grandmother to flee from east-prussia! We must not complain, despite every professionality of complaining, which became a genuin german-skill. Besides: what would hollywood have done without any german bad boy? I like this page - it is better than the german-wiki itself.-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, that Bonn still is chief seat of six ministries and also that the majority of Germany's ministerial employees are working in Bonn according to de:Berlin/Bonn-Gesetz (Berlin/Bonn law). Therefore, although beeing capital of Germany, Berlin shares the country's political power with Bonn. What about a footnote about these circumstances within the table? 85.179.35.157 ( talk) 20:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note, it says that the law deciding the political fate of Bonn was passed in 2004, yet states it was implimented in 1999, which is right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.237.47.14 ( talk) 10:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
http://cgi-host.uni-marburg.de/~hlgl/atlas/id.cgi?ex=inhalt&lines=0&page=2¤t=22&id=23 Helsinki 193.208.90.130 ( talk) 11:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Germany has accepted Kosovo independence. The map showing where Germany is should be changed, containing an independent Kosovo. Bardhylius ( talk) 12:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Without taking sides for one side or the other, I'd just want to add that this really is a non-problem. There are many articles where a decision over Kosovo is of some importance, but definitely not in this article nor in articles of the same kind ( France, Spain, Monaco etc.) I can guarantee you that not one person comes to the article on Germany with the intention of finding Kosovo on the map. I can understand those who feel it is important to have it included and those who object to its inclusion, but it's really irrelevant to this article and many similar articles where there's currently a big argument over Kosovo. These disputes should be settled at the discussion over Kosovo, not exported to every second Wikipedia articles as they are at the moment. JdeJ ( talk) 14:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
In the Third Reich section, a picture is captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during a official visit to occupied Yugoslavia", when it should be captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during an official visit to occupied Yugoslavia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fumbingehmer ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
"There were COMMUNISTS AND FASCISTS AND SOCIALISTS THAT PRETTY MUCH ruined the country." I'm not going to deny that, but could a registered user please take care of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.77.47 ( talk) 03:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the articleIn the PISA Study, a test of thirty-one countries, in 2000 Germany ranked twenty-first in reading and twentieth in both mathematics and the natural sciences, prompting calls for reform.. However the reference given ( Experts: Germany Needs to Step up School Reforms) does not give any information about the number of countries participating. Also it does not give any information about Germany ranking 21st.
According to this article 43 countries participated in PISA in 2000.
Would someone please take a look at this?
Thanks! Patrick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.252.63 ( talk) 11:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Currently User: Matthead is extending the introduction again and again. I find it too long now. It has this overboarding history part, which should rather go to the respective section. I am very fine with the added content. It is both interesting and relevant, but does it really need to go in the introduction, while the whole Saar issue is not even mentioned in the history section. Tomeasy ( talk) 20:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Often, mistakes are made which I am not willing to tolerate, as Wikipedia would proliferate them even more:
-- Matthead Discuß 03:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to shorten the intro, I suggest to delete the long list of neighboring countries (more than most others, I guess). It's like starting an article about a football player by first mentioning all his neighbors, school mates, team mates, coaches etc. before discussing the person itself. On the other hand, the result of World War I is significant, setting the stage for WWII (as e.g. Foch predicted). Some even call the two WWs "the second 30 years war, against Germany", or similar. -- Matthead Discuß 01:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The list of neighbors is a standard part among country articles. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The Czech Republic article currently states: "The Czech Republic also possesses a 30,000-square-metre (7.4-acre) exclave in the middle of the Hamburg Docks, which was awarded to Czechoslovakia by Article 363 of the Treaty of Versailles to allow the landlocked country a place where goods transported downriver could be transferred to seagoing ships. The territory reverts to Germany in 2018."
Is the above true? While it may have been in the Versaille Treaty, is this still legally the position? Can any one provide a source for this? I have found one source: [1], but it is a magazine article and I would not consider it reliable. The Czech-German territory is not on the list of exclaves so if it can be properly shown that it is true, it should presumably be added to the list. The topic is also being discussed at Talk:Czech Republic. Could any one help in verifying the claim? Redking7 ( talk) 17:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
This post does not directly concern German topics but might benefit from the fresh perspectives of editors of German articles getting involved.
I have proposed that the articles “ foreign relations of the Republic of Ireland; civil service of the Republic of Ireland and public service of the Republic of Ireland" be renamed in each case by deleting the words “the Republic of”.
The main article concerning the Irish state is called Republic of Ireland because the island of Ireland already occupies the Ireland page. I do not propose to move this. However, the correct name of the Irish state is simply "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" is not correct. This is discussed at length at an article I contributed to, Names of the Irish state.
If you are sufficiently interested, you may wish to read the Names of the Irish state article and then contribute your opinions, whatever they may be here. Irish contributors are always a small minority on WP and even the most rational edits often get 'voted down' for essentially political reasons. I think I've put forward pretty convincing reasons for the three moves (and only three moves - try not to be distracted by the smokescreens of those opposed to the moves).
I appreciate few German people are even likely to read this post so we will all still bring our English-speaking perspectives to the debate. However, I am desperate for the level of debate concerning this matter to improve (much of the discussion has consisted of stale rantings over Irish history and politics). Many thanks if you decide to get involved. Redking7 ( talk) 19:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Order of Precedence
It is incoorrect that the chancellor is third in the order of precedensce. The chancellor is fourth in the order. True is that the Federal President is first, second is the President of Bundestag, but here lies the mistake: third in the order is the President of the Bundesrat, who is elected for a half year period and is always a Ministerpräsident (Minister-President) of a Bundesland (state). The President of the Bundesrat is also the debuty to the Federal President if abscent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.232.53 ( talk) 2008-03-29
There are 3 protected minority languages in Germany: Sorbian in Lusatia, Danish in the north and North Frisian in the north west of Schleswig-Holstein. Would that be worth mentioning? VEB Text ( talk) 18:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Only a minor comment, but I believe that the German flag was (relatively) recently updated to include an eagle emblem in the centre? Thus, the flag on the page should probably be updated. Gturkey ( talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
All true. Just to show what we have been talking about. The left flag is the correct national flag and, most important to satisfy Gturkey's concerns, there is no motion whatsoever to change the national flag away from this simple form. The second flag is the Bundesdienstflagge, the German state flag that Boson has mentioned. It is official, but legally only used by governmental institutions. Being from Germany, I have to say that it is quite unlikely Gturkey has seen this flag. At last the flag on the right, which Boson probably refered to at last, and which I guess Gturkey thought of, has absolutely no official purpose but is very widely used (sport events etc.). Tomeasy ( talk) 08:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, my mistake. I bought a copy of the flag on the right in Germany recently, and (incorrectly) assumed it was the official one. Seems a bit odd, though, to have three variations of one flag. Gturkey ( talk) 01:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
There is an additional issue concerning flaggs. The flaggs above use the colors of the democratic movement related to the 1848 revolution. These colors should not be used in connection with fascism, because these colors were in opposition to the Nazi Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.91.129 ( talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Template:Germanic-speaking regions of Europe has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Janneman ( talk) 16:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Germany, and here the Cancelor (Angela Merkel) for us holds an important representative value, more Germans nows her and not Horst Köhler (President). So I miss a Picture of Angela Merkel, because for us (German People) the Cancellor seems to be more important than the President. -- 89.51.18.230 ( talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about, the president is nothing in Germany, its just a represantive of Germany. Not like in the USA, so you might change that!!!! And yes, he is speaking for all germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't miss her at all... Soilentgreen ( talk) 23:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
and sometimes, our dear President just refuses to sign a bill... Anyway, Mr. Köhler is very popular and our head of state. 85 per cent of Germans are content with him according to this survey http://www.welt.de/politik/article2038489/Koehler_beliebt_wie_nie_zuvor_Beck_im_Sturzflug.html "Only" 69 per cent are content with the Federal Chancellor. 91.57.72.64 ( talk) 00:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I would say that Heidi Klum is as an example for German society more up to date. -- 89.51.18.230 ( talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
hello I need info on germany's cutlure please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.36.41 ( talk) 22:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Give your support or opposition at the Central Europe talk page, since we are looking for a single definition for it. It's very important. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 17:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
muy malos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.96.101 ( talk) 00:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all that participated and gave their opinion on Proposal II.
Proposal II was approved, 13 editors supported it and 5 editors opposed it. Proposal II is now in effect and it redefined Central Europe. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
why doesn't this site have geographical features of germany??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.157.226.146 ( talk) 22:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to compile a list of notable references to support a Wikipedia article concerning a video editor. One I have is in German - if there are any German speakers that could help by reading the articles this would be appreciated. The articles are here: Clesh#References If you believe from the article the video editor is notable please leave some form of comment here: AfD Many thanks, mk ( talk) 20:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why it says Germany was the home of numerous important mathematicians and scientists. I would say Germany was AND still is home to numerous important mathematicians (Fields medalist Gerd Faltings, MPI Mathematics Bonn) and scientists (2008 Physics Nobel Laureate Peter Grünberg, FZ Jülich and 2008 Chemistry Nobel Laureate Gerhard Ertl, FHI MPG Berlin). So I think we should really rewrite this part. Or someone should explain to me why this article gives the impression that German achievements in science belong to the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Werni2 ( talk • contribs) 08:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
In reply to the revert [ [2]. Although this is luckily (!) a very theoretical debate on death penalty provisions in German state constitutions it is simply not right that Bavaria abolished death penalty. First they just removed one of two provision on death penalty but they didn't abolish it (abolishing is stating that capital punishment is prohobited, though it would be redundant as it is exclusively ruled by the Grundgesetz). Second there still is a provision that explicitely rules death penalty: "Der Vollzug der Todesstrafe bedarf der Bestätigung der Staatsregierung." - "The excecution of death penalty requires confirmation of the state government" (Art. 47 §4 Bayerische Verfassung). This sentence could have been removed as well (alongside some other very silly provisions obsoleted by the Grundgesetz). But up to now it is corect to say: "A famous example are articles on enforcement of the death penalty in some federal laws (Art. 21 § 1 Hesse constitution, Art. 43 §4 Bavarian Constitution) that go against the ban of capital punishment by the Basic Law, rendering these provisions invalid." This doesn't mean that death penalty isn't abolished there it just means that some illegal provisions exist in some state constitutions. Arnomane ( talk) 18:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
In Hesse the problem is that always the parliament is splintered in so many parties so since 1948 only a few changes could be done. Often they try to do too much changes so one of the parties, needed for the necessary majority, does not agree with one change and so the complete revision failed. So it happened last in 2004. This time it failed, because the social democratic party did not agree with changes in social matters. http://starweb.hessen.de/cache/hessen/landtag/enquetekommissionverfassung/EKV-Bericht.pdf The death penalty can never be used even if Hesse would leave the federel republic, the constitutional court of Hesse would have to weigh the right to live against the death penalty. The right to live would win, maybe the constitutional court would decide, that the article of the constitution is in contradiction to the constitution of Hesse cancle the article. But the constitutional court only can act, if ones human rights are impaired and would go with this "problem" to the constitutional court. So without death penalty, no correction by the constitutional court. In Germany the constitutional courts can correct changes of the constitution if the change is in contradiction to the constitution. This is called "Verfassungswidriges Verfassungsrecht" constitutional law in contradiction to the constitution. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungswidriges_Verfassungsrecht and this: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20040303_1bvr237898.html is a case where the german constitutional court weigh constitutional law against constitutional law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.194.76 ( talk) 17:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
There is something wrong there. "Nationis Germanicae" does not mean "of the german Nation", but "of German Nationality". Thx. -- 89.13.166.193 ( talk) 21:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
In medieval context of emperor barbarossa´s contemporary comprehension "Nationis Germaniae" does not ment the latter (early modern) "nation", since there was a different meaning in that idea of "natio", which dirived from academic distinction. "natio" could be whether the clerical province of "germania" (including Scottland, Poland, Bohemia a.s.o.) or a pure sign of birthplace and language. The emerging of this title in the late 12th century is a cornerstone of the imperial decline. Struggling with the papal and the eastern church, but also with the danish and english kings, this new self-definition had been a division of self-esteem and feudal heritage. A german nation is perhaps first to be seen in 1871, when prussia led their weaker neighbours out of the "holy empire". (excuse my worse english)-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Holy Empire ceased to exist in 1806, long before the German Empire was founded in 1871. 91.57.72.64 ( talk) 00:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The second highest offical in Germany is the Bundesratspräsident. If the Bundespräsident dies or is absent, the Bundesratspräsident is head of state. The Bundestagspräsident ist just third and the chancelor forth highest official. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.136.7.191 ( talk • contribs) 2008-05-19
Lear21 and me had a little discussion about the picture of the Allianz Arena here. I couldn´t get satisfying answers there and suggest that either the picture on the right stays in the article or the caption is changed to The Allianz Arena is host to the football clubs Bayern Munich, 1860 Munich and was a venue for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, because the blue illumination stands for a home play for 1860 Munich. Any opinions? Thanks, -- Joachim Weckermann ( talk) 08:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The two most internationally known sport arenas in Germany are the Olympiastadion and the Allianz Arena. Both were either opening or final venue for the World Cup 2006. There are several good reasons for both of them getting installed in this article. The main arguments to have the Allianz Arena in the sports section and in the Germany article in general are: 1. Within a very short time the AA has become an iconic modern! building of Germany 2. It is home to the by far most successful and globally known German football club. 3. because of (2.) it has the highest permanent presence in national and international media 4. The AA broadens the range of regions and cities represented in the article.(Berlin is already represented several times in the article). Note that the iconic appearance of the AA is only related to its unique transluscent/ illuminated facade. It would be not wise having a daylight image therefore. Introducing the daylight image would mean introducing a "Gummiboat" which nobody in the world is able to recognize. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The core question for this section is, how to represent "Football", the most important and most popular national sport of Germany. Arena images are one possibility. Again, nobody makes the case against the Olympiastadion but instead for the AA because of 1.-4. I am a Berliner myself and could easily argue for the OS. On the other hand, the article as an entity should represent Germany. Munich is one of the important centers of the country and should be somehow included. One last thing, the AA image has been added to the article long before my first edit more than 2 years ago. It is by no means a mistake to keep it. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I would not consider Thomas Kretschmann as a famous german actor, I had to look him up to remember the face. Maybe he was just included because he is playing in Hollywood. I would rather suggest one of the following: Ulrich Mühe, Alexandra Maria Lara, Moritz Bleibtreu, Til Schweiger, Martina Gedeck.
Or Klaus Kinski's daughter Nastassja Kinski, Udo Kier - both famous in Hollywood. 84.60.164.147 ( talk) 23:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany and face of Nazism, Hitler was the "Fuhrer". Mussolini had zero control of Nazi Germany at all, he was the leader of Italy. I know this is an attempt to say "hey look! there were other bad ones too", but no. An image of Adolf Hitler alone is available, and that is what belongs in the section on German history. Hitler alone, the man who ruled Nazi Germany. Its good enough to be the main pic on his article, its certainly good enough for here. - Gennarous ( talk) 18:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Derblaueengel.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 23:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
From the text: "After World War II, Germany was divided into two separate states along the lines of allied occupation in 1949.[4] The two states became reunified again in 1990. . . ."
Comments: (1) After WW2 [Insert: "RUMP Germany"] eventually emerged as "two separate states [plus the Saarland, plus the Berlin enclave] along the lines of allied occupation . . . "; (2) By "Rump Germany" is meant all German land west of the Oder-Western Neisse line. (3) Prior to 1945, the country known as Germany never had a history of existing separately from the Eastern Provinces (i.e., Silesia, and others, east of the Oder-Neisse line (See: Oder-Neisse line)), so "reunified" or "reunified again" is a non sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 ( talk) 05:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Per Footnote #[4] in the text, Rump Germany [less the Saarland; & less the Berlin enclave] only came into existence in 1949: "In 1949, at East – West Germany division . . . " Use of such a text reference to the DDR/GDR as "East Germany" is misleading, since in 1949 the "Polish Administered Territories" (Silesia, Main Pommerania, Southern East Prussia) were in abeyance . . . and those territories could, at that time, also have been called part of "Eastern Germany" pending the World War Two Peace Treaty.
3 October 1990: the land areas of the nations of the then current "Federal Republic of Germany" ("FRG") and the German Democratic Republic (GDR/DDR), namely (1) the former occupation zones of the U.S., France [to include the Saar Protectorate], & Britain (the sum total of which eventually became "West Germany"/BRD/FRG) and, (2) the former occupation zone of the Soviet Union (and which became the DDR/GDR), were, along with the Soviet, British, U.S., & French Occupation Zones of the Berlin enclave, reunited as the new Federal Republic of Germany. The land area of this Federal Republic of Germany, when combined with the land area of the 1945 ordained Polish Administered Eastern German Territories, plus the 1945 created Russian Province of Kaliningrad (which is the northern part of the former German Province of East Prussia), form the land area of the 1937 pre-WW2 Germany. Note: The determination of the land area of Germany between 1919 and, for example, 1937, was a result of the 1919 Versailles Treaty, following the 11 November 1918 World War 1 armistice. In 1935 the Saar was restored to Germany after being provisionally detached by the 1919 Versailles Treaty; in the early 1920s Versailles Treaty mandated plebliscites were held in East Prussia and southern Silesia, the results of which determined Germany’s borders in those areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 ( talk) 12:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This may not be the best place to ask this, but I am curious as to the meaning/origin/etymology of the Scandinavian terms Tysk and Tyskland. Is this simply the result of a linguistic drift from Deutchsland, or is it a distinctly separate word, like the various Alemagne/Alemannia/Alemán variants of the Romance languages? LordAmeth ( talk) 13:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
In addition, those Romance language terms are derived from the name "Alemanni" - a group of German tribes that inhabited an area roughly corresponding to German Switzerland, and the southern German states of Bavaria and Baden-Würtenberg (among other places). Many of the dialects spoken in these areas are referred to as "Alemannic German". I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, even though you made it clear you were aware the terms had a different etymology. Now if someone could explain why the British referred to the Germans as "huns" in WW1... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warsteiner14 ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Svenska är lagtysk i tolv dialekter! (swedish is low-german in twelve dialects) So you have to go to northgerman tongues, where you will find "tütsch". "sch" is the diminutivum which stands for the scandinavian "sk", and so - as far as i know (I am a "lowgerman"!): "tütsch" means "teutsch" (which is newgerman "Deutsch"). That diphtong "ü"(ue) was written in medieval scandinavia like "y" - besides there was no right way to write, you did that after bare hearing. Facit "tysk" ment "deutsch/teutsch" or - if you like - "Dutch", its funny, but true!-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
It can be generally said, it depends which german tribe lived next door when this terms were coined. For instance, in finnish they call germany "saksa" - probably since the saxons were living closer to them than any other german tribe when the name was coined. Swedish call it "tyskland", the root of that term is disputed. Some assume it could trace back to the "teutons" - which was a danish and north german tribe (according to today's territories) same goes with french "alemannia" (alemanni lived in southwest germany and switzerland, according to today's territories) or italian "germania" (they just keep the old latin term). In england they called the germans once "dutch", during the medieval the netherlands gained independence and since the netherlands are that close to britain they kept calling the people there "dutch" while the other germans got the latin term (->germania) and were from that date on called "germans". Thats also the reason why the country isn't called something like "dutchland" but netherlands in english, the english had difficulties with that chaotic terms due to chaotic and always changing borders due to the german sectionalism. That's why "pennsylvania german" is by mistake called "pennsylvania dutch". Now it's getting difficult, actually bavaria was never ever part of "germania" but part of the roman empire (the "real" one). The territory of the germanic tribes bordered to the roman empire (and bavaria) at the danube river. But since prussia gained dominance during the centuries and prussians are in fact "germanics" the term for them took place for the country as a whole in most languages. germany is not homogenic - it's as diverse as spain (catalonia, galicia,..) or the united kingdom (england, wales, scotland, northern ireland). So, depending on the person you'll ask you might get different explanations, it's just too lang ago to evaluate it impartial. I'm bavarian and that's my point of view ;-) 84.155.84.3 ( talk) 06:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a continuous history of dates covered in the History of Germany section, yet very strangely there is no talk of what took place in Germany (or former Holy Roman Empire) between the years of 1806-1814; thus this is a curiously incomplete account. Granted this article is not the proper History of Germany article, just Germany in general, but how can you account in a broad sense for ALL of the years except for 1806-1814? When I did a little research I found that these 8 years spanned most of the Napoleonic era and the formation of the Confederation of the Rhine, which was very formative to the later development of the German Empire. So why no accounting for these years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.182.200.229 ( talk) 16:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I undid a revert about poverty being not existing in Germany. According to Unicef poverty is existent in Germany: Child Poverty in Rich Countries. German social scientists also hold the opinion that poverty is existent in their country: Armut und Zukunftschancen bei Kindern und Jugendlichen[ http://www.dkhw.de/download/14_DKHW_Forderungskatalog.pdf Deutsches Kinderhilfswerk: Forderungskatalog zur Bekämpfung der Kinderarmut in Deutschland]. Of course we are talking about relative poverty not about absolute poverty here. Studies about Poverty and the "new underclass" haven gotten a lot of media coverage in Germany lately.-- Resilienzi ( talk) 06:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
As I mentionted before, germany isn't uniform but diverse. In bavaria poverty and unemployment exist just like everywhere else on earth, but not in alarming numbers. In the more northern parts of germany (doesn't matter if north-west or north-east) the reverse is true. The former GDR and the struggling ruhrgebiet and old industry in the north (cf. rust belt in the US) provoked a doom loop of job cuts, decreasing spending power, decreasing tax yield, and so on while the southern states of Baden-Wuerttemberg and Bavaria are very prosper. So I think this topic should be handled in that context - generalizations are pointless. Same goes for the education system. Education in germany is the responsibility of the Laender. A German school system is simply non-existent. 84.155.84.3 ( talk) 07:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading "Economy," it states that "A growing number of Germans is poor. Children are more likely to be poor than adults In 1965 only one in 75 children lived on welfare, now one in 6 does."
In "A growing number of Germans is poor," the correct grammar would be "A growing number of Germans are poor."
Also, there is no period after the sentence "Children are more likely to be poor than adults". This claim is not backed by any sources.
Nichtsoren ( talk) 17:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Are these nonsense sentences? Read and correct if you understand what they are supposed to mean: 'After the end of the influx of so-called Gastarbeiter (blue-collar guest-workers), refugees were a tolerated exception to this point of view. Today the government and the German society are acknowledging the opinion, that controlled immigration should be allowed based on the qualification of immigrants.' What point of view? And why 'after'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.125.227 ( talk) 22:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
i suggest to move/remove the picture of president horst köhler in the government-section. the head of state is the chancellor, and her picture
should be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.182.46 ( talk) 16:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note, if you dont know it better, dont say something. The Head of Germany is the Chancellor, even if you want it or not. We are not the USA, even if the word president is confusing you. And tell me, were did you get the information that the president is the head of germany?? Tell me, would you! The chancellor is more powerfull, although she is in the third place, but it doesnt matter at all. And if you want to know about the rang of our president, look it up, look up his job and his power, and you will find not so much... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, Mr. Köhler is very popular and our head of state. 85 per cent of Germans are content with him according to this survey http://www.welt.de/politik/article2038489/Koehler_beliebt_wie_nie_zuvor_Beck_im_Sturzflug.html "Only" 69 per cent are content with the Federal Chancellor. 91.57.72.250 ( talk) 00:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This sentence should be rendered into the past tense: Renewable energy is generating 14% of the country's total electricity consumption in 2007.. -- 76.113.200.215 ( talk) 03:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Schleswig-Holstein recently formed a Verfassungsgericht [7], please remove the outdated info from the section "State level". -- Wladi001 ( talk) 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It appears to me that there is a need for discussion on what map -- orange or green -- to use in the info box. I have just reverted a change on this, and I am afraid that the editor will object this revert. So, perhaps it is a good idea to have an open discussion on the issue.
Changing from orange to green, the edit summary stated that it is due to harmonizing the EU locator maps. This is far from being realistic! There is currently a quite even split among EU countries using an orange or green map. The number of orange maps, however, is rather increasing than declining. So, while the standardized version is far from being installed (if ever), it would rather be the orange one, I think. That's why I reverted. However, I can imagine that there are more arguments that motivated the change and I am open to listen to them -- as I have of course arguments for the orange map.
Tomeasy
talk
10:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please correct it?
It says "Hanover" with an "n" missing.
(If this is a reference to a popular German comedy show in the 90s... forget it: The joke is lost around here!!!)
Hello! I just started the article Moldavian-German relations. It would be nice to have an input from German editors who care. The article as it stands today, needs major expansion on history, economy, diplomatical relationsn, etc. Thanks to all interested in advance...
I have added a spoken version of this article in two parts. The link above only points to the first part, but both sections can be accessed from the link under "External Links" in the article itself. Hassocks 5489 (tickets please!) 19:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Please check out the Germany article right now. It looks like it's been hacked by a user named Grawp, but I don't really know what to do to get it back to its normal state. Just a heads up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvmorris ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I would just like to point out that in the "area" section of the sidebar at the top of the page, it says Germany has an area of "357 021 km sq.", and being the 63rd largest country, while the article it hyperlinks to ("List of countries and outlying territories by total area") claims Germany to be the 62nd largest country, with an area of "357,022 km sq.". I am not sure which of these is right, but the data is inconsistant, and needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.235.0 ( talk) 17:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I like Germany and it's peoples. I have been their for seven days in Furankfurt city. The city is very beautyfull, and the people are very cooprative to help others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.74.4 ( talk) 14:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like to open this discussion, because I observe an ongoing revert war related to two these two map. User: Lear21 advocates the long-standing left map, while User: Stor stark7 would like to substitute it by the right version. As you all know, communication merely via edit results is not counter-productive, e.g., it does not allow other users to later see on basis of what one version prevailed. Other limitations of edit wars are well-known.
My proposition is to accept the long-standing version as long as this discussion is ongoing.
Personally, I prefer the right version, since it simply adds information: Germany is shown in its context (other countries borders), the territorial losses of Germany to Poland and the USSR are indicated, and the Saar region is treated more appropriately. Tomeasy talk 14:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The main reasons for the reverts have been: 1. The new map and its caption have been far too big. Emphasizing the situation of Allied forces in Germany through a large image is not justified. Neither is an overlengthy caption. 2. The size does not fit in the layout concept of the article. 3. The section describes the situation IN Germany with its borders we know today. The situation in Poland is a different story and has therefore no place in the historic narrative of the Federal Republic of Germany. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 15:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Something to think about: In the USA there have been numerous instances of books and TV programs showing "Nazi Germany" having the precise borders of the post October 1990 Germany. Who knows how many people assume that the borders of, say, 1937 Germany were precisely the same as the borders of post Oct 1990 Germany?! Lots of sloppy assumptions going on. Even Ken Burns's recent TV documentary "The War" had the 1937 boundaries of Germany incorrect, although not quite as misrepresented as other sources have been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.217.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 22 July 2008
Hey Matthead. As you take part in this thread you must have seen that we are currently discussing with Lear21 the question which map to put. Why do you have to revert him during this discussion? It's a good habit to wait for the ultimate change until consensus is reached. I think, we were anyway not far from this aim. Tomeasy T C 11:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Again, the section deals with the history of Germany from 1945 until now. The clear focus is the partition and the reunifcation of Germany. There is no place for an extended visualisation of surrounding territories. This does not mean territorial losses are not mentioned. In fact, it is mentioned in first sentence, but it is only one sentences among many within the section. The Polish parts have no influence in the history of Germany after 1945, therfore it remains unjustified to present them. Furthermore, two sections above is a map of the former German Reich which is clearly different from the one in the last history section. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 15:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Please people, do not make a big political discussion out of this. Ultra-leftist versus Nazi accusations are simply destructive and are going to loose focus on the real and not so complicated issue itself. To Molobo, you have expressed your criticism with respect to this map already elsewhere, where it is also discussed. Here it is just misplaced, as it was IMHO already when it was put here.
Let's focus on the history we are trying to narrate. There was Nazi Germany until 1945, whose accepted borders are usually depicted as those from 1937. Matthead might have a point of proposing otherwise, but this is uncommon and would certainly be interpreted as POV or original research.
Lear said that the borders of the former German Reich are shown earlier. Well, this is again a different thing as it refers to the state until 1918, which is distinct from 1937. Since we do not have any map showing the German territory from 1918-37, I find it actually a great compromise to mend this by showing the 1945 partition/truncation in a way that also shows this.
Our task is to be as precise as possible without using too much space. That's why I favor the map with territorial losses. Not because I want to show how great Germany was or what others have taken away from us or whatever other stupid reason. It is simply what has happened at that time and it needs to be shown. If this can done without loss of information by simply replacing one map - great, let's do it. Tomeasy T C 16:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the second map, it just shows more information. -- Unify ( talk) 18:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
76.14.217.231 ( talk) 05:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The current history section of the country article Germany is one, if not THE longest of all country articles. The now discussed period is in itself the longest of all sections within the article. The first para deals with the development of the partition of Germany within the NOW existing borders. That´s why we have the 4-Allied-Image. I see absolutely no room for extending content. I see also no room for extending visual content. The current evolving conflict about the accuracy of new-extended-map indicates a highly instable version and a source for future debates. I´m highly opposed to see this one introduced in the main article because it appears to be of marginal relevance. It should be mentioned in the main article "History of Germany". all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote Stor stark7 : "The new map best presents the situation in a seminal period in German history (1945 - 1955)". That is one of the major reasons why the map won´t be installed. The section tells the story of DIVISION!, REUNIFICATION! & some of the RECENT HISTORY!. There is no reason for expanding or shifting the focus of these 3 major issues. There is no room for a map which does not even show the new/contemporary borders of Poland and could possibly confuse new readers. Lear 21 ( talk) 21:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I am also in favor of Map B, since it illustrates what is written in the text. Otherwise, it would not be clear which territorial losses (the Saar? GDR as territorial loss?) the text refers to. Any person with more than a superficial knowledge should moreover be aware of the fact that the Eastern territories were of great importance for German post-war history, at least up to 1991 and probably even up to now. I just want to mention politicians like Kurt Schumacher, Willy Brandt etc and the influence of the electorate originating from the Eastern territories. Even Helmut Kohl had a hard time when he finally decided to acknowledge the border with Poland in 1990/91. The reader not acquainted with German history should get non-biased and thorough information. I think most of the participants in this discussion are in favor of Map B and gave good reasons for their point of view. However, Map B was again reverted to Map A and I am not the person to start an edit war. So how should we proceed? Ulmensis ( talk) 11:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
There's only a single user promoting Map A, unwilling to acknowlegde any kind of arguments and pushing "his" map, he should stop that. Pommerland ( talk) 12:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
...for statistical reasons, read this:
http://www.ftd.de/politik/deutschland/:Weniger_Einwohner_Statistiker_lassen_Deutschland_schrumpfen/388881.html http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,567289,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.83.28.43 ( talk) 18:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
German news agency Deutsche Welle broke a story about how Germany's population statistics are off by 1.3 million people, due to 1.3 million not deregistering themselves from the census when they moved. I dunno if this should be noted in the Demographics section or not.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3506210,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canationalist ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The standard figures used in Wikipedia country articles derive from the IMF not the World Bank. Please change as soon as possible. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
There has been repeatingly attempts to shift the focus of the section. A. Through imposing a new title. B.Through installing a map which captures additional territorial losses of the German Reich after WW2.
Some general facts first:
Conclusion: Both facts indicate a very, I repeat: very, very extended content of history which is unprecedented in Wikipedia country articles. It can be assumed therefore, that the written and visualized content sufficiently represents the historic events.
A. A classic occupation would involve an imposed administrative structure from outside lead by foreign stuff. This has not been the case in former West Germany. Therefore a renaming of the section is not justified (reason 1).
B. The Section "Division and Reunification" covers the historic events within the borders of the internationally recognised Federal Republic of Germany. The written content/ historic events are encompassing the time of 1945-1990 and of the newly reunified FRG. The major developments are accurately emphisized. The territorial losses take only half a sentence of the written content and are not further elaborated. The discussed new map would therefore cover a precedent of German history of marginal relevance (reason 1). Emphazising the territorial losses has almost no relevance of the German history narrative and can be regarded as misleading (reason 2). Because the new map not even presents the complete Polish territory, the map is a source of misinterpretation for new readers and is to elaborated for the purpose of the section (see general facts) (reason 3). The new map would change the focus of the historic narrative of the section and would therefore create an importance of less relevant events (reason 4). The focus now aims at the events within the Russian zone and the 3-Western Zone plus the events before and after the reunification. Not even one single sentence mentions the situation of newly created Poland in the years 1950-2008. Why? Because Poland does not belong to Germany (reason 5) or to say it the other way around, the history of Germany is told not the one of Poland. The Spanish, French and most notably the German (whose history section is significantly longer) Germany-Articles include such a map.(reason 6). To compare the different territories of the German Reich and the new FRG, somebody can easily see the changes by scrolling to the German Reich section.(reason 7) It seems to be redundant to present an almost identical map. The new map includes redundant and misleading information like the inclusion of the Saar protectorate (reason 8). This is highly specific historic narrative and is not mentioned within the text, neither it can be considered of relevance in a broader context. The flag of the protecorate is of highly specific degree. It is hardly known by German experts.
Because of A and B (reason 1-8), it appears not justified to rename the section or extend the visual content through the proposed map. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
My dear Lear 21, it is a bit difficult trying to follow your English, which is odd since you claim near native status, but I will try to respond to your arguments nevertheless.
@Tomeasy@Stor stark7 What comes next? Replacing Beethoven with Tokyo Hotel? Presenting Goebbels instead of Hitler. Mentioning all World Cup Final defeats of the German national football team? Visualizing a VW Beetle from the 70´s instead of the current Daimler S-class? I could go on for hours with these questions. At the center of it is one question: What is relevant and what is not. Both of you gave no evidence of aiming at the center of things. Let me try to ask another rethoric question. Are you both willing to install a map on the Russia article showing the loss of the Soviet Union territories after 1990? Are you both, Tomeasy and Stor stark7, are willing to install a map of territorial losses of the British Empire at the article United Kingdom and it´s history section? Are you both personally ready to install a map of territorial losses of the French colonial Empire in the history section of "France". Would you both argue with the same intensity and logic? I only can imagine what the answer would be like.
The new map would shift the focus of the section to an exclusive act right after the war. The well established old map does represent a whole period, the new map represents a blink in time. The new map does not even show a "real, newly established territory of Poland". @ Tomeasy: The German Reich territory and the last borders of Nazi Germany (1937) are almost the same. The difference of the map two sections above is clearly visible. Lear 21 ( talk) 21:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote Tomeasy: "How can it be that you not know this and still think you have the expertise" This question proofs exactly the attitude of unfocused debates. I´m not interested in discussions wether German Reich or Nazi Germany territory is SLIGHTLY or MASSIVELY different.
What interests me is "How to visually present the history of Germany from 1945 - 2008 in 2 images". The already written text gives a stark and useful hint: 1. Para = Allied forces in Germany 2. Para = Development in 2 German states 3. Para = Reunification 4. Para = Recent history
The developments in Poland/former German territories cover only half a sentence in the whole section. This is not without reason (BTW none of the first 3 paras have been written by myself). The relevant WW2 activities are covered in the Third Reich section. The last history section has a different focus aiming at the events in Germany within the new territory of 1990. And not Poland. You will hear this Hundred times if you want. The new map would shift the focus of the entire section to a brief WW2 aftermath act. This is not wise nor suits it the other major events from 1945-2008. Please, with sugar on the top, realize that the old map represents more of the history of Germany in this period than the new (even incomplete) map. Sometimes less is more, in this case certainly. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 19:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I already expressed my opinion at "History map reverts" because I at first didn't notice the discussion was being continued here. The section "Division and Reunification (1945-)" also covers the years 1945-49, therefore what happened in the Eastern territories is of relevance here. This should be illustrated by Map B, because otherwise the reader unacquainted with German history will be misguided and not know which territories were lost. If the section just covered the year starting from 1949, a map showing the FRG and the GDR only could also be used. However, a map showing the allied occupations zones witout the Eastern territories does not make any sense to me. Either you write about what happened in Germany from 1945-49 - then the former Eastern territories and the expulsion of Germans from there is of great relevance - or you write about later years, when the two German states were established. Ulmensis ( talk) 12:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
How about this one...Blue/Red-Map.... This map seems to cover most of the section´s written content, a significant part of the article´s introduction text (2. para), and the sections topic line. It also seems to be most representative for the period of a divided country. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
@Tomeasy: The missing EU involvement was rather an example of other important developments in German history. It was not a direct proposal to extend content, this should be discussed in another talk topic. BTW, the EU involvement is, even if not in History, covered in the article´s Introduction, in Economy and in Foreign Relations. In fact, it has its representation in the article as a whole. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, my only interest is the article itself and the content of it. I´m not here at Wikipedia to avoid anything uncomfortable nor seeing a so called majority having their way. The Germany article receives 500.000 clicks per month and is one of most read articles in Wikipedia Germany ranks #65 among 2.5 million. It is for many people around the globe the first contact with Germany and all its releated issues. The article has already received the highest merits (FA-class/article of the day) within Wikipedia, that´s why every step of change should be carefully analyzed on its implications.
The new map is a step forward in this stuck discussion and focuses even more the major state of being from 1949-1990. Hope you can support this view while still maintaining an eye on the articles developments. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 14:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I find this map dissatisfying, well, irritating: How are all those people around the globe for who this is the first contact with Germany are supposed to know what the blue and red areas mean ? - there is no explination. Why do the outlines of the Länder only exist in the Western (blue) part? And what on earth is the green thing? A lake? The divided City of Berlin (as mentioned in text)? Or (obviously, but just for me) only West-Berlin?-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 18:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
@User:HerkusMonte At the center of German history from 1945-2008 stands the period of a divided country. Two German states existed for almost 40 years. The new map illustrates that, the others fail in this respect. Lear 21 ( talk) 00:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Its pleasant seeing Map B back on the Article page. The following pertains to the description below the posted map B. I believe it is a mistake to lump both the Soviet and Polish administered Eastern Germany areas in the same statement. I say this because it appears the Soviet takeover of northern East Prussia was granted by Potsdam, etc., and therefore not contingent upon a final WW2 Peace Treaty, whereas the Polish "Temporary Administered Areas" were to be ultimately resolved (in terms of actual size & ethnic composition) at the presumed WW2 Final Peace Treaty. ANNRC ( talk) 09:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Since the section is deigned to be already "too long" (& apparently there is no yielding on making it any longer), the battle of the maps may be endless. In other words, a year from now, for example, the battle of the maps may be ongoing. ANNRC ( talk) 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposed Solution of Maps issue from a fairly new "contributer": Can the system be tweaked to "stack" 2 maps (i.e., the above one & Map B) in the space currently occupied by the above one on the Article page? In other words, if the descriptive text can be dropped & then can the space be used for effecting a stacked map display. Maybe the software doesn't allow such things, and the map wars will continue. ANNRC ( talk) 03:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
While the Reunification with the DDR has been more difficult than expected as the DDR had a different currency, a different political system and a relatively huge population of over 16 million people, Reunification with Austria would be much easier with a common currency and a population of just 8 million people driving Germany´s population to 91 million people.
After all France is talking right now about integrating Wallonia (Belgium), a move that would take its population over 65 million people.
Ein Volk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.49.59 ( talk) 17:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
What is the point? -- 217.83.38.30 ( talk) 20:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Since May 1. 2008 the State of Schleswig-Holstein das its own Constitional Court in Schleswig. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.25.136.186 ( talk) 08:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I endorse the compromise implemented by user: HerkusMonte, i.e., to show two maps.
Of course, it is not our aim to increase the size of the article by another image, but even more it is not my aim to pertain the instability this article had over the past three weeks. Unfortunately, we are not able to discuss this issue without reverting each other on the article itself.
We are facing the problem that Lear insists on showing a map that reflects the two-state history in a very obvious way. This is certainly an argument, even though not the paramount one for the rest of us. In view that many other editors have tried to explain in various ways why a more precise map is better, and seeing that Lear will maintain imposing his wish by reverts on the article, which is the worst for the article, I advocate to urge a stable solution now. That is one that Lear can also support.
Apart from the size problem of the article, I think that the two map compromise is anyway the best approach. Tomeasy T C 10:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The two map proposal indicates only one thing. That the responsible editor or the supporting editors have no experience of creating or maintaining a high quality FA-article. Instead, this proposal clearly lowers the quality and questions the ability of the article to focus on important content in general. You won´t find this over extensive mapping of historic incidents within a period of 10 years in not one, I repeat, not one! comparable country article.
There is a reason why the section is called DIVISION and REUNIFICATION. I seriously wonder if any of the map-B supporters ever lived in Germany or Europe or attended history classes or watches TV (at least). There is only room for one map. This map has to show 2 German states. Everything else is of minor relevance and can be mentioned in the main History article. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It has been more than obvious in the past weeks where the majority stands. Thus, I am pessimistic that this poll is going to help. However, I do not want to obstruct any attempt that leads to a stable version. Therefore, I SUPPORT the usage of Map B. Tomeasy T C 19:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One question for Lear 21 regarding his following words: "There is a reason why the section is called DIVISION and REUNIFICATION. . . . There is only room for one map. This map has to show 2 German states.": Are you saying that TWO German states existed in 1945? (I will answer for you: of course not). In 1949 Germany existed in 4 (FOUR) (or 6 if Saarland & Berlin are considered) areas. The 4 areas would be FRG, DDR, Polish Temporarily Administered Areas, & Soviet Temporarily Administered Area. The only thing "reunified" in 1990 was the 1945 agreed-upon occupation zones, to include Berlin. BTW I am USA born, with 2 German grandparents. JJC ANNRC ( talk) 04:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I also SUPPORT the usage of Map B. for reasons we've meticulously tried to explain in the sections above.-- Stor stark7 Speak 21:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I SUPPORT Map B. As mentioned above, the map used at West German schools to describe the political situation in Germany up to 1990 was something like Map B. It was only after 1990 that the Eastern territories were usually excluded. The Eastern territories played a significant role in German post-war history, as did the millions of refugees from these areas. Ulmensis ( talk) 16:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
but yet it mentions nothing about the fact that much of modern day germany was conquered and occupied by the hunnish hordes-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Th Huns came and went without leaving "significant" trace. No importances for the Germany article. The obscure "facts"/assertions above are semi-fictional. -- 217.83.6.222 ( talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Boson ( talk) 19:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article under indefinite semi protection? Tomeasy T C 13:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I am having Italy on watch and therefore very well understand what you mean. This article is unprotected and about 90% of its edits are reverts or reverted. It's really annoying! What would be the regular procedure to apply for semi-protection? Tomeasy T C 07:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
The correct german term for preventive detention is Sicherungsverwahrung. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.130.136 ( talk) 18:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for protecting this page wikipedia, the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit".
What is this baloney?
"Only the Social Democratic Party of Germany voted against it; the Communists were not able to present opposition, as their deputies had already been murdered or imprisoned.[16][17] A centralised totalitarian state was established by a series of moves and decrees making Germany a single-party state. Industry was closely regulated with quotas and requirements, to shift the economy towards a war production base."
Both facts are most certainly not true. With the first, the links cited mention nothing regarding murders of communist officials prior to 1933. With the former, it is absolute nonsense to say that Germany was moving towards a war production base as early as 1933 and even as late as 1936. Where is the source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.42.218.74 ( talk) 01:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, I've just added a hatlink re. FRG - I hope there are no objections? I saw on the redirect's page, incidentally, that it had been changed from a West Germany to a Germany redirect and thought I'd just offer both links to avoid going back and forth. It Is Me Here ( talk) 21:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
It would be better to say "Belgium an Netherlands at west, and France at south-West of Germany" As a whole France is not west from Germany but also as much south of it. Only about 40% of France is strait west of the southern part of Germany, it is an exception, About 60% of France is situated below Germany's most southern point. all the eastern strip of France is situated strait south from Rheinland; from Lorraine, Alsace to Provence and Corsica passing by Jura and Savoy are directly south from Germany. So... just west ? while Austria, which is far to be a southern than France is south of Germany ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 ( talk) 23:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we take Hegel out of the philosophy section and give him his own section? I recommend placing the Hegel section above Philosophy, Arts, Literature, Music and Culture. Perhaps we can just merge all the subsections under one big section that weaves them all in under one Hegelian masterwork-- The edifice of the German philosopher's conceptual framework encompasses them all, consumes them all, and has outlasted them all. I vote for the immediate merging of all German culture under a heading titled Hegel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.222.59 ( talk) 09:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
It's a little bit "off" to say that "a region named Germania has been known and documented since 100 AD" since it sound's like it was a country of some sort named that by the inhabitans themselves but this was however just a very diffuse term that the romans used for the area where there lived germanic peoples, which streched all over northern Europe, this article makes it sound like it was specifically located were Germany is today, which is wrong. Some Romans even confused celtic areas for being germanic, so it was very undefinite of what area it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaggsan ( talk • contribs) 12:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A BBC poll from April 2008 shows, that 20 % of Germans think the US has a mainly positive influence in the world, while 72 % think its mainly negativ ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/04_april/02/usa.pdf). It would be great if someone could add this to the footnote section of the article. I think its fair to say, that relations cooled significant not relative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.246.194.160 ( talk) 09:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there such a thing as West-central Europe (as mentioned in the introduction)?!? Shouldn't it be just Central Europe ?-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 22:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Here: "(roughly translated as civilian service) , or a longer"... The space before the comma is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.220.129.203 ( talk) 01:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The sentence "The Germany is divided into six states" is incorrect because the six states build the Federal Republic! That is a question of legal quality! The German states could exist without the Federal republic, but the Federal Republic couldn't exist without the states!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.127.54 ( talk) 20:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It is also wrong because Germany has 16 states forming the Bundesrepublik (federal republic) Xuthor ( talk) 00:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I would express it in that way: the Federal Republic of Germany is divided into sixteen German states("Länder") Xuthor ( talk) 01:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Germany is not divided into states, the states (who are older) form together the Federal Republic of Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.180 ( talk) 11:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Does any one know what the current jewish population is in Germany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.17.219.250 ( talk) 00:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, including many officials of the Whermacht during the Nazi period had Jewish ancestry, even direct and known Jewish ancestry as showed by Wikipedia in the article "German Blood Certificate": including Field Marshall Erhard Milch, personnal friend of Hermann Göring who falsified his records to hide the fact that Milch´s father was Jew...it would make a very interesting movie: the relationship of Hermann Goring and his Jewish friends. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.49.59 ( talk) 17:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently the enviroment section reads to blame other countries for Germany's high carbon dioxide emissions, and I take aim at the "we are not responsible" clause that this basically is.
The US, at one time, was a massive exporter as well, and today most of our carbon emissions are from cars, which people use to go shopping and to work, to buy goods from foreign countries. Can it be said then that we are not responsible for these emissions, as we would not go shopping for them if foreign countries did not export?
Or what about the "work" part? Currently US Financial institutions are highly involved in financing many important projects across the globe: are the emissions created by people moving to and from work at these institutions the fault of the other countries?
No. The US is responsible for the carbon emissions it makes, regardless of what reason its making them. Similarly, Germany is accountable for the fact it has such high emissions.
For now, I am deleting that little clause out of the "enviroment" section. And until we have come to a reasonable agreement that it should be there (beyond the base reasoning currently involved), I think I'll delete any such attempts to put it back. Scryer_360 ( talk) 21:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
No, where in my statements do I say that? I mean the US wouldn't produce as many carbon emissions if it was not part of the global economy, but, similar to Germany, it is still responsible for the emissions it makes regardless of that fact. The same is said for Germany: it is responsible for its emissions, even if its goods are mainly consumed in other countries.
It also stands to reason that, of all things, the greatest strides to reduce emissions must be made at the source of the greatest emissions. Hence, the biggest reductions need to come in places like Germany, like the USA, but also like China and Japan. The environment doesn't know what "per capita" means. Signed by Scryer_360, who for some reason is being failed by the log in link... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.91.137.171 ( talk) 04:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the point is the contemporary need for many Germans to blame the USA for everything bad in the world. A curious need considering that German Democracy and the critical rebuilding of Germany post WW II are thanks to the Americans. Germany is itself a great economic power because of it's own qualities as a modern industrial nation and it's own great business culture-- but German Democracy and the huge post-war economic lift-up make many German complaints about the USA look ridiculous if not even childish. Perhaps a section in the article on post Word War II German arrogance should be included, certainly the USA has it's arrogance, but so does Germany and so do many Germans.
24.8.106.182 ( talk) 13:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Germany and I'm wondering a little bit. I don't know the article in the earlier composition and what is different now. But in Germany we're not discussing whether we are responsible for our CO2 output and other pollution, we know we are. There are many problems in reducing pollution as an industrial state and there are many laws (e.g. the EU set since many years pollution standards for cars known as "Euro-Norm" 1/2/3... which is linked with higher taxes for more polluting cars) that reduces pollution more and more, but a growing economy leads in the other direction. But nobody here would say that other states are responible for our pollution. We know our responsibility and try to be a "good" pollution-reducer. But whatever, politics is mostly more slowly than the conviction of the people that economic growth and a healthy enviroment are no contrast. To 24.8.106.182: I think this is no place to discuss this. And no sentence should be wrote in wikipedia, because the "object" of description is so arrogant. But let me tell this: Both Countries (like all countries) have a historical background and all of us would be well advised to know this background of each other and to tolerate what it created and try to understand the other ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.189.221 ( talk) 21:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
No offense to the USA, but i think you should not bring that on table, cause if you can drive with your bicycle, you rather take the car. And your cars, sorry, but when they need around 10- 20 Litres/100kmh then you might think about that. And as well look up what we do for the enviroment, renewable energie and so on. And now, the USA starts slowly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
At least Germany should be thankful to the US, which is nowadays the `bad fella´ of the global-media-discussion. After two disastrous enequities like the WW1 and WW2, germans should be more than thankful for their state in the world! My grandmother lost eight brothers(!!!) in 1915 and both of my grandfathers survived the time after 1945! So I am a product of WW2, which urged my grandmother to flee from east-prussia! We must not complain, despite every professionality of complaining, which became a genuin german-skill. Besides: what would hollywood have done without any german bad boy? I like this page - it is better than the german-wiki itself.-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, that Bonn still is chief seat of six ministries and also that the majority of Germany's ministerial employees are working in Bonn according to de:Berlin/Bonn-Gesetz (Berlin/Bonn law). Therefore, although beeing capital of Germany, Berlin shares the country's political power with Bonn. What about a footnote about these circumstances within the table? 85.179.35.157 ( talk) 20:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note, it says that the law deciding the political fate of Bonn was passed in 2004, yet states it was implimented in 1999, which is right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.237.47.14 ( talk) 10:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
http://cgi-host.uni-marburg.de/~hlgl/atlas/id.cgi?ex=inhalt&lines=0&page=2¤t=22&id=23 Helsinki 193.208.90.130 ( talk) 11:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Germany has accepted Kosovo independence. The map showing where Germany is should be changed, containing an independent Kosovo. Bardhylius ( talk) 12:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Without taking sides for one side or the other, I'd just want to add that this really is a non-problem. There are many articles where a decision over Kosovo is of some importance, but definitely not in this article nor in articles of the same kind ( France, Spain, Monaco etc.) I can guarantee you that not one person comes to the article on Germany with the intention of finding Kosovo on the map. I can understand those who feel it is important to have it included and those who object to its inclusion, but it's really irrelevant to this article and many similar articles where there's currently a big argument over Kosovo. These disputes should be settled at the discussion over Kosovo, not exported to every second Wikipedia articles as they are at the moment. JdeJ ( talk) 14:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
In the Third Reich section, a picture is captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during a official visit to occupied Yugoslavia", when it should be captioned as "Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini during an official visit to occupied Yugoslavia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fumbingehmer ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
"There were COMMUNISTS AND FASCISTS AND SOCIALISTS THAT PRETTY MUCH ruined the country." I'm not going to deny that, but could a registered user please take care of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.77.47 ( talk) 03:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
According to the articleIn the PISA Study, a test of thirty-one countries, in 2000 Germany ranked twenty-first in reading and twentieth in both mathematics and the natural sciences, prompting calls for reform.. However the reference given ( Experts: Germany Needs to Step up School Reforms) does not give any information about the number of countries participating. Also it does not give any information about Germany ranking 21st.
According to this article 43 countries participated in PISA in 2000.
Would someone please take a look at this?
Thanks! Patrick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.252.63 ( talk) 11:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Currently User: Matthead is extending the introduction again and again. I find it too long now. It has this overboarding history part, which should rather go to the respective section. I am very fine with the added content. It is both interesting and relevant, but does it really need to go in the introduction, while the whole Saar issue is not even mentioned in the history section. Tomeasy ( talk) 20:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Often, mistakes are made which I am not willing to tolerate, as Wikipedia would proliferate them even more:
-- Matthead Discuß 03:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to shorten the intro, I suggest to delete the long list of neighboring countries (more than most others, I guess). It's like starting an article about a football player by first mentioning all his neighbors, school mates, team mates, coaches etc. before discussing the person itself. On the other hand, the result of World War I is significant, setting the stage for WWII (as e.g. Foch predicted). Some even call the two WWs "the second 30 years war, against Germany", or similar. -- Matthead Discuß 01:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The list of neighbors is a standard part among country articles. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The Czech Republic article currently states: "The Czech Republic also possesses a 30,000-square-metre (7.4-acre) exclave in the middle of the Hamburg Docks, which was awarded to Czechoslovakia by Article 363 of the Treaty of Versailles to allow the landlocked country a place where goods transported downriver could be transferred to seagoing ships. The territory reverts to Germany in 2018."
Is the above true? While it may have been in the Versaille Treaty, is this still legally the position? Can any one provide a source for this? I have found one source: [1], but it is a magazine article and I would not consider it reliable. The Czech-German territory is not on the list of exclaves so if it can be properly shown that it is true, it should presumably be added to the list. The topic is also being discussed at Talk:Czech Republic. Could any one help in verifying the claim? Redking7 ( talk) 17:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
This post does not directly concern German topics but might benefit from the fresh perspectives of editors of German articles getting involved.
I have proposed that the articles “ foreign relations of the Republic of Ireland; civil service of the Republic of Ireland and public service of the Republic of Ireland" be renamed in each case by deleting the words “the Republic of”.
The main article concerning the Irish state is called Republic of Ireland because the island of Ireland already occupies the Ireland page. I do not propose to move this. However, the correct name of the Irish state is simply "Ireland". "Republic of Ireland" is not correct. This is discussed at length at an article I contributed to, Names of the Irish state.
If you are sufficiently interested, you may wish to read the Names of the Irish state article and then contribute your opinions, whatever they may be here. Irish contributors are always a small minority on WP and even the most rational edits often get 'voted down' for essentially political reasons. I think I've put forward pretty convincing reasons for the three moves (and only three moves - try not to be distracted by the smokescreens of those opposed to the moves).
I appreciate few German people are even likely to read this post so we will all still bring our English-speaking perspectives to the debate. However, I am desperate for the level of debate concerning this matter to improve (much of the discussion has consisted of stale rantings over Irish history and politics). Many thanks if you decide to get involved. Redking7 ( talk) 19:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Order of Precedence
It is incoorrect that the chancellor is third in the order of precedensce. The chancellor is fourth in the order. True is that the Federal President is first, second is the President of Bundestag, but here lies the mistake: third in the order is the President of the Bundesrat, who is elected for a half year period and is always a Ministerpräsident (Minister-President) of a Bundesland (state). The President of the Bundesrat is also the debuty to the Federal President if abscent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.78.232.53 ( talk) 2008-03-29
There are 3 protected minority languages in Germany: Sorbian in Lusatia, Danish in the north and North Frisian in the north west of Schleswig-Holstein. Would that be worth mentioning? VEB Text ( talk) 18:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Only a minor comment, but I believe that the German flag was (relatively) recently updated to include an eagle emblem in the centre? Thus, the flag on the page should probably be updated. Gturkey ( talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
All true. Just to show what we have been talking about. The left flag is the correct national flag and, most important to satisfy Gturkey's concerns, there is no motion whatsoever to change the national flag away from this simple form. The second flag is the Bundesdienstflagge, the German state flag that Boson has mentioned. It is official, but legally only used by governmental institutions. Being from Germany, I have to say that it is quite unlikely Gturkey has seen this flag. At last the flag on the right, which Boson probably refered to at last, and which I guess Gturkey thought of, has absolutely no official purpose but is very widely used (sport events etc.). Tomeasy ( talk) 08:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, my mistake. I bought a copy of the flag on the right in Germany recently, and (incorrectly) assumed it was the official one. Seems a bit odd, though, to have three variations of one flag. Gturkey ( talk) 01:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
There is an additional issue concerning flaggs. The flaggs above use the colors of the democratic movement related to the 1848 revolution. These colors should not be used in connection with fascism, because these colors were in opposition to the Nazi Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.51.91.129 ( talk) 20:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Template:Germanic-speaking regions of Europe has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Janneman ( talk) 16:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm from Germany, and here the Cancelor (Angela Merkel) for us holds an important representative value, more Germans nows her and not Horst Köhler (President). So I miss a Picture of Angela Merkel, because for us (German People) the Cancellor seems to be more important than the President. -- 89.51.18.230 ( talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about, the president is nothing in Germany, its just a represantive of Germany. Not like in the USA, so you might change that!!!! And yes, he is speaking for all germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't miss her at all... Soilentgreen ( talk) 23:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
and sometimes, our dear President just refuses to sign a bill... Anyway, Mr. Köhler is very popular and our head of state. 85 per cent of Germans are content with him according to this survey http://www.welt.de/politik/article2038489/Koehler_beliebt_wie_nie_zuvor_Beck_im_Sturzflug.html "Only" 69 per cent are content with the Federal Chancellor. 91.57.72.64 ( talk) 00:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I would say that Heidi Klum is as an example for German society more up to date. -- 89.51.18.230 ( talk) 18:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
hello I need info on germany's cutlure please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.36.41 ( talk) 22:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Give your support or opposition at the Central Europe talk page, since we are looking for a single definition for it. It's very important. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 17:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
muy malos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.96.101 ( talk) 00:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all that participated and gave their opinion on Proposal II.
Proposal II was approved, 13 editors supported it and 5 editors opposed it. Proposal II is now in effect and it redefined Central Europe. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 23:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
why doesn't this site have geographical features of germany??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.157.226.146 ( talk) 22:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm trying to compile a list of notable references to support a Wikipedia article concerning a video editor. One I have is in German - if there are any German speakers that could help by reading the articles this would be appreciated. The articles are here: Clesh#References If you believe from the article the video editor is notable please leave some form of comment here: AfD Many thanks, mk ( talk) 20:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why it says Germany was the home of numerous important mathematicians and scientists. I would say Germany was AND still is home to numerous important mathematicians (Fields medalist Gerd Faltings, MPI Mathematics Bonn) and scientists (2008 Physics Nobel Laureate Peter Grünberg, FZ Jülich and 2008 Chemistry Nobel Laureate Gerhard Ertl, FHI MPG Berlin). So I think we should really rewrite this part. Or someone should explain to me why this article gives the impression that German achievements in science belong to the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Werni2 ( talk • contribs) 08:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
In reply to the revert [ [2]. Although this is luckily (!) a very theoretical debate on death penalty provisions in German state constitutions it is simply not right that Bavaria abolished death penalty. First they just removed one of two provision on death penalty but they didn't abolish it (abolishing is stating that capital punishment is prohobited, though it would be redundant as it is exclusively ruled by the Grundgesetz). Second there still is a provision that explicitely rules death penalty: "Der Vollzug der Todesstrafe bedarf der Bestätigung der Staatsregierung." - "The excecution of death penalty requires confirmation of the state government" (Art. 47 §4 Bayerische Verfassung). This sentence could have been removed as well (alongside some other very silly provisions obsoleted by the Grundgesetz). But up to now it is corect to say: "A famous example are articles on enforcement of the death penalty in some federal laws (Art. 21 § 1 Hesse constitution, Art. 43 §4 Bavarian Constitution) that go against the ban of capital punishment by the Basic Law, rendering these provisions invalid." This doesn't mean that death penalty isn't abolished there it just means that some illegal provisions exist in some state constitutions. Arnomane ( talk) 18:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
In Hesse the problem is that always the parliament is splintered in so many parties so since 1948 only a few changes could be done. Often they try to do too much changes so one of the parties, needed for the necessary majority, does not agree with one change and so the complete revision failed. So it happened last in 2004. This time it failed, because the social democratic party did not agree with changes in social matters. http://starweb.hessen.de/cache/hessen/landtag/enquetekommissionverfassung/EKV-Bericht.pdf The death penalty can never be used even if Hesse would leave the federel republic, the constitutional court of Hesse would have to weigh the right to live against the death penalty. The right to live would win, maybe the constitutional court would decide, that the article of the constitution is in contradiction to the constitution of Hesse cancle the article. But the constitutional court only can act, if ones human rights are impaired and would go with this "problem" to the constitutional court. So without death penalty, no correction by the constitutional court. In Germany the constitutional courts can correct changes of the constitution if the change is in contradiction to the constitution. This is called "Verfassungswidriges Verfassungsrecht" constitutional law in contradiction to the constitution. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungswidriges_Verfassungsrecht and this: http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20040303_1bvr237898.html is a case where the german constitutional court weigh constitutional law against constitutional law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.194.76 ( talk) 17:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
There is something wrong there. "Nationis Germanicae" does not mean "of the german Nation", but "of German Nationality". Thx. -- 89.13.166.193 ( talk) 21:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
In medieval context of emperor barbarossa´s contemporary comprehension "Nationis Germaniae" does not ment the latter (early modern) "nation", since there was a different meaning in that idea of "natio", which dirived from academic distinction. "natio" could be whether the clerical province of "germania" (including Scottland, Poland, Bohemia a.s.o.) or a pure sign of birthplace and language. The emerging of this title in the late 12th century is a cornerstone of the imperial decline. Struggling with the papal and the eastern church, but also with the danish and english kings, this new self-definition had been a division of self-esteem and feudal heritage. A german nation is perhaps first to be seen in 1871, when prussia led their weaker neighbours out of the "holy empire". (excuse my worse english)-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Holy Empire ceased to exist in 1806, long before the German Empire was founded in 1871. 91.57.72.64 ( talk) 00:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The second highest offical in Germany is the Bundesratspräsident. If the Bundespräsident dies or is absent, the Bundesratspräsident is head of state. The Bundestagspräsident ist just third and the chancelor forth highest official. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.136.7.191 ( talk • contribs) 2008-05-19
Lear21 and me had a little discussion about the picture of the Allianz Arena here. I couldn´t get satisfying answers there and suggest that either the picture on the right stays in the article or the caption is changed to The Allianz Arena is host to the football clubs Bayern Munich, 1860 Munich and was a venue for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, because the blue illumination stands for a home play for 1860 Munich. Any opinions? Thanks, -- Joachim Weckermann ( talk) 08:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The two most internationally known sport arenas in Germany are the Olympiastadion and the Allianz Arena. Both were either opening or final venue for the World Cup 2006. There are several good reasons for both of them getting installed in this article. The main arguments to have the Allianz Arena in the sports section and in the Germany article in general are: 1. Within a very short time the AA has become an iconic modern! building of Germany 2. It is home to the by far most successful and globally known German football club. 3. because of (2.) it has the highest permanent presence in national and international media 4. The AA broadens the range of regions and cities represented in the article.(Berlin is already represented several times in the article). Note that the iconic appearance of the AA is only related to its unique transluscent/ illuminated facade. It would be not wise having a daylight image therefore. Introducing the daylight image would mean introducing a "Gummiboat" which nobody in the world is able to recognize. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The core question for this section is, how to represent "Football", the most important and most popular national sport of Germany. Arena images are one possibility. Again, nobody makes the case against the Olympiastadion but instead for the AA because of 1.-4. I am a Berliner myself and could easily argue for the OS. On the other hand, the article as an entity should represent Germany. Munich is one of the important centers of the country and should be somehow included. One last thing, the AA image has been added to the article long before my first edit more than 2 years ago. It is by no means a mistake to keep it. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I would not consider Thomas Kretschmann as a famous german actor, I had to look him up to remember the face. Maybe he was just included because he is playing in Hollywood. I would rather suggest one of the following: Ulrich Mühe, Alexandra Maria Lara, Moritz Bleibtreu, Til Schweiger, Martina Gedeck.
Or Klaus Kinski's daughter Nastassja Kinski, Udo Kier - both famous in Hollywood. 84.60.164.147 ( talk) 23:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany and face of Nazism, Hitler was the "Fuhrer". Mussolini had zero control of Nazi Germany at all, he was the leader of Italy. I know this is an attempt to say "hey look! there were other bad ones too", but no. An image of Adolf Hitler alone is available, and that is what belongs in the section on German history. Hitler alone, the man who ruled Nazi Germany. Its good enough to be the main pic on his article, its certainly good enough for here. - Gennarous ( talk) 18:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Derblaueengel.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 23:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
From the text: "After World War II, Germany was divided into two separate states along the lines of allied occupation in 1949.[4] The two states became reunified again in 1990. . . ."
Comments: (1) After WW2 [Insert: "RUMP Germany"] eventually emerged as "two separate states [plus the Saarland, plus the Berlin enclave] along the lines of allied occupation . . . "; (2) By "Rump Germany" is meant all German land west of the Oder-Western Neisse line. (3) Prior to 1945, the country known as Germany never had a history of existing separately from the Eastern Provinces (i.e., Silesia, and others, east of the Oder-Neisse line (See: Oder-Neisse line)), so "reunified" or "reunified again" is a non sequitur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 ( talk) 05:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Per Footnote #[4] in the text, Rump Germany [less the Saarland; & less the Berlin enclave] only came into existence in 1949: "In 1949, at East – West Germany division . . . " Use of such a text reference to the DDR/GDR as "East Germany" is misleading, since in 1949 the "Polish Administered Territories" (Silesia, Main Pommerania, Southern East Prussia) were in abeyance . . . and those territories could, at that time, also have been called part of "Eastern Germany" pending the World War Two Peace Treaty.
3 October 1990: the land areas of the nations of the then current "Federal Republic of Germany" ("FRG") and the German Democratic Republic (GDR/DDR), namely (1) the former occupation zones of the U.S., France [to include the Saar Protectorate], & Britain (the sum total of which eventually became "West Germany"/BRD/FRG) and, (2) the former occupation zone of the Soviet Union (and which became the DDR/GDR), were, along with the Soviet, British, U.S., & French Occupation Zones of the Berlin enclave, reunited as the new Federal Republic of Germany. The land area of this Federal Republic of Germany, when combined with the land area of the 1945 ordained Polish Administered Eastern German Territories, plus the 1945 created Russian Province of Kaliningrad (which is the northern part of the former German Province of East Prussia), form the land area of the 1937 pre-WW2 Germany. Note: The determination of the land area of Germany between 1919 and, for example, 1937, was a result of the 1919 Versailles Treaty, following the 11 November 1918 World War 1 armistice. In 1935 the Saar was restored to Germany after being provisionally detached by the 1919 Versailles Treaty; in the early 1920s Versailles Treaty mandated plebliscites were held in East Prussia and southern Silesia, the results of which determined Germany’s borders in those areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.106.18.161 ( talk) 12:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This may not be the best place to ask this, but I am curious as to the meaning/origin/etymology of the Scandinavian terms Tysk and Tyskland. Is this simply the result of a linguistic drift from Deutchsland, or is it a distinctly separate word, like the various Alemagne/Alemannia/Alemán variants of the Romance languages? LordAmeth ( talk) 13:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
In addition, those Romance language terms are derived from the name "Alemanni" - a group of German tribes that inhabited an area roughly corresponding to German Switzerland, and the southern German states of Bavaria and Baden-Würtenberg (among other places). Many of the dialects spoken in these areas are referred to as "Alemannic German". I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, even though you made it clear you were aware the terms had a different etymology. Now if someone could explain why the British referred to the Germans as "huns" in WW1... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warsteiner14 ( talk • contribs) 17:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Svenska är lagtysk i tolv dialekter! (swedish is low-german in twelve dialects) So you have to go to northgerman tongues, where you will find "tütsch". "sch" is the diminutivum which stands for the scandinavian "sk", and so - as far as i know (I am a "lowgerman"!): "tütsch" means "teutsch" (which is newgerman "Deutsch"). That diphtong "ü"(ue) was written in medieval scandinavia like "y" - besides there was no right way to write, you did that after bare hearing. Facit "tysk" ment "deutsch/teutsch" or - if you like - "Dutch", its funny, but true!-- 139.30.24.101 ( talk) 15:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
It can be generally said, it depends which german tribe lived next door when this terms were coined. For instance, in finnish they call germany "saksa" - probably since the saxons were living closer to them than any other german tribe when the name was coined. Swedish call it "tyskland", the root of that term is disputed. Some assume it could trace back to the "teutons" - which was a danish and north german tribe (according to today's territories) same goes with french "alemannia" (alemanni lived in southwest germany and switzerland, according to today's territories) or italian "germania" (they just keep the old latin term). In england they called the germans once "dutch", during the medieval the netherlands gained independence and since the netherlands are that close to britain they kept calling the people there "dutch" while the other germans got the latin term (->germania) and were from that date on called "germans". Thats also the reason why the country isn't called something like "dutchland" but netherlands in english, the english had difficulties with that chaotic terms due to chaotic and always changing borders due to the german sectionalism. That's why "pennsylvania german" is by mistake called "pennsylvania dutch". Now it's getting difficult, actually bavaria was never ever part of "germania" but part of the roman empire (the "real" one). The territory of the germanic tribes bordered to the roman empire (and bavaria) at the danube river. But since prussia gained dominance during the centuries and prussians are in fact "germanics" the term for them took place for the country as a whole in most languages. germany is not homogenic - it's as diverse as spain (catalonia, galicia,..) or the united kingdom (england, wales, scotland, northern ireland). So, depending on the person you'll ask you might get different explanations, it's just too lang ago to evaluate it impartial. I'm bavarian and that's my point of view ;-) 84.155.84.3 ( talk) 06:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is a continuous history of dates covered in the History of Germany section, yet very strangely there is no talk of what took place in Germany (or former Holy Roman Empire) between the years of 1806-1814; thus this is a curiously incomplete account. Granted this article is not the proper History of Germany article, just Germany in general, but how can you account in a broad sense for ALL of the years except for 1806-1814? When I did a little research I found that these 8 years spanned most of the Napoleonic era and the formation of the Confederation of the Rhine, which was very formative to the later development of the German Empire. So why no accounting for these years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.182.200.229 ( talk) 16:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I undid a revert about poverty being not existing in Germany. According to Unicef poverty is existent in Germany: Child Poverty in Rich Countries. German social scientists also hold the opinion that poverty is existent in their country: Armut und Zukunftschancen bei Kindern und Jugendlichen[ http://www.dkhw.de/download/14_DKHW_Forderungskatalog.pdf Deutsches Kinderhilfswerk: Forderungskatalog zur Bekämpfung der Kinderarmut in Deutschland]. Of course we are talking about relative poverty not about absolute poverty here. Studies about Poverty and the "new underclass" haven gotten a lot of media coverage in Germany lately.-- Resilienzi ( talk) 06:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
As I mentionted before, germany isn't uniform but diverse. In bavaria poverty and unemployment exist just like everywhere else on earth, but not in alarming numbers. In the more northern parts of germany (doesn't matter if north-west or north-east) the reverse is true. The former GDR and the struggling ruhrgebiet and old industry in the north (cf. rust belt in the US) provoked a doom loop of job cuts, decreasing spending power, decreasing tax yield, and so on while the southern states of Baden-Wuerttemberg and Bavaria are very prosper. So I think this topic should be handled in that context - generalizations are pointless. Same goes for the education system. Education in germany is the responsibility of the Laender. A German school system is simply non-existent. 84.155.84.3 ( talk) 07:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading "Economy," it states that "A growing number of Germans is poor. Children are more likely to be poor than adults In 1965 only one in 75 children lived on welfare, now one in 6 does."
In "A growing number of Germans is poor," the correct grammar would be "A growing number of Germans are poor."
Also, there is no period after the sentence "Children are more likely to be poor than adults". This claim is not backed by any sources.
Nichtsoren ( talk) 17:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Are these nonsense sentences? Read and correct if you understand what they are supposed to mean: 'After the end of the influx of so-called Gastarbeiter (blue-collar guest-workers), refugees were a tolerated exception to this point of view. Today the government and the German society are acknowledging the opinion, that controlled immigration should be allowed based on the qualification of immigrants.' What point of view? And why 'after'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.125.227 ( talk) 22:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
i suggest to move/remove the picture of president horst köhler in the government-section. the head of state is the chancellor, and her picture
should be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.182.46 ( talk) 16:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note, if you dont know it better, dont say something. The Head of Germany is the Chancellor, even if you want it or not. We are not the USA, even if the word president is confusing you. And tell me, were did you get the information that the president is the head of germany?? Tell me, would you! The chancellor is more powerfull, although she is in the third place, but it doesnt matter at all. And if you want to know about the rang of our president, look it up, look up his job and his power, and you will find not so much... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.102.123.211 ( talk) 21:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, Mr. Köhler is very popular and our head of state. 85 per cent of Germans are content with him according to this survey http://www.welt.de/politik/article2038489/Koehler_beliebt_wie_nie_zuvor_Beck_im_Sturzflug.html "Only" 69 per cent are content with the Federal Chancellor. 91.57.72.250 ( talk) 00:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This sentence should be rendered into the past tense: Renewable energy is generating 14% of the country's total electricity consumption in 2007.. -- 76.113.200.215 ( talk) 03:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Schleswig-Holstein recently formed a Verfassungsgericht [7], please remove the outdated info from the section "State level". -- Wladi001 ( talk) 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
It appears to me that there is a need for discussion on what map -- orange or green -- to use in the info box. I have just reverted a change on this, and I am afraid that the editor will object this revert. So, perhaps it is a good idea to have an open discussion on the issue.
Changing from orange to green, the edit summary stated that it is due to harmonizing the EU locator maps. This is far from being realistic! There is currently a quite even split among EU countries using an orange or green map. The number of orange maps, however, is rather increasing than declining. So, while the standardized version is far from being installed (if ever), it would rather be the orange one, I think. That's why I reverted. However, I can imagine that there are more arguments that motivated the change and I am open to listen to them -- as I have of course arguments for the orange map.
Tomeasy
talk
10:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please correct it?
It says "Hanover" with an "n" missing.
(If this is a reference to a popular German comedy show in the 90s... forget it: The joke is lost around here!!!)
Hello! I just started the article Moldavian-German relations. It would be nice to have an input from German editors who care. The article as it stands today, needs major expansion on history, economy, diplomatical relationsn, etc. Thanks to all interested in advance...
I have added a spoken version of this article in two parts. The link above only points to the first part, but both sections can be accessed from the link under "External Links" in the article itself. Hassocks 5489 (tickets please!) 19:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Please check out the Germany article right now. It looks like it's been hacked by a user named Grawp, but I don't really know what to do to get it back to its normal state. Just a heads up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvmorris ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I would just like to point out that in the "area" section of the sidebar at the top of the page, it says Germany has an area of "357 021 km sq.", and being the 63rd largest country, while the article it hyperlinks to ("List of countries and outlying territories by total area") claims Germany to be the 62nd largest country, with an area of "357,022 km sq.". I am not sure which of these is right, but the data is inconsistant, and needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.235.0 ( talk) 17:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I like Germany and it's peoples. I have been their for seven days in Furankfurt city. The city is very beautyfull, and the people are very cooprative to help others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.74.4 ( talk) 14:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like to open this discussion, because I observe an ongoing revert war related to two these two map. User: Lear21 advocates the long-standing left map, while User: Stor stark7 would like to substitute it by the right version. As you all know, communication merely via edit results is not counter-productive, e.g., it does not allow other users to later see on basis of what one version prevailed. Other limitations of edit wars are well-known.
My proposition is to accept the long-standing version as long as this discussion is ongoing.
Personally, I prefer the right version, since it simply adds information: Germany is shown in its context (other countries borders), the territorial losses of Germany to Poland and the USSR are indicated, and the Saar region is treated more appropriately. Tomeasy talk 14:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The main reasons for the reverts have been: 1. The new map and its caption have been far too big. Emphasizing the situation of Allied forces in Germany through a large image is not justified. Neither is an overlengthy caption. 2. The size does not fit in the layout concept of the article. 3. The section describes the situation IN Germany with its borders we know today. The situation in Poland is a different story and has therefore no place in the historic narrative of the Federal Republic of Germany. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 15:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Something to think about: In the USA there have been numerous instances of books and TV programs showing "Nazi Germany" having the precise borders of the post October 1990 Germany. Who knows how many people assume that the borders of, say, 1937 Germany were precisely the same as the borders of post Oct 1990 Germany?! Lots of sloppy assumptions going on. Even Ken Burns's recent TV documentary "The War" had the 1937 boundaries of Germany incorrect, although not quite as misrepresented as other sources have been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.217.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 22 July 2008
Hey Matthead. As you take part in this thread you must have seen that we are currently discussing with Lear21 the question which map to put. Why do you have to revert him during this discussion? It's a good habit to wait for the ultimate change until consensus is reached. I think, we were anyway not far from this aim. Tomeasy T C 11:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Again, the section deals with the history of Germany from 1945 until now. The clear focus is the partition and the reunifcation of Germany. There is no place for an extended visualisation of surrounding territories. This does not mean territorial losses are not mentioned. In fact, it is mentioned in first sentence, but it is only one sentences among many within the section. The Polish parts have no influence in the history of Germany after 1945, therfore it remains unjustified to present them. Furthermore, two sections above is a map of the former German Reich which is clearly different from the one in the last history section. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 15:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Please people, do not make a big political discussion out of this. Ultra-leftist versus Nazi accusations are simply destructive and are going to loose focus on the real and not so complicated issue itself. To Molobo, you have expressed your criticism with respect to this map already elsewhere, where it is also discussed. Here it is just misplaced, as it was IMHO already when it was put here.
Let's focus on the history we are trying to narrate. There was Nazi Germany until 1945, whose accepted borders are usually depicted as those from 1937. Matthead might have a point of proposing otherwise, but this is uncommon and would certainly be interpreted as POV or original research.
Lear said that the borders of the former German Reich are shown earlier. Well, this is again a different thing as it refers to the state until 1918, which is distinct from 1937. Since we do not have any map showing the German territory from 1918-37, I find it actually a great compromise to mend this by showing the 1945 partition/truncation in a way that also shows this.
Our task is to be as precise as possible without using too much space. That's why I favor the map with territorial losses. Not because I want to show how great Germany was or what others have taken away from us or whatever other stupid reason. It is simply what has happened at that time and it needs to be shown. If this can done without loss of information by simply replacing one map - great, let's do it. Tomeasy T C 16:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I prefer the second map, it just shows more information. -- Unify ( talk) 18:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
76.14.217.231 ( talk) 05:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The current history section of the country article Germany is one, if not THE longest of all country articles. The now discussed period is in itself the longest of all sections within the article. The first para deals with the development of the partition of Germany within the NOW existing borders. That´s why we have the 4-Allied-Image. I see absolutely no room for extending content. I see also no room for extending visual content. The current evolving conflict about the accuracy of new-extended-map indicates a highly instable version and a source for future debates. I´m highly opposed to see this one introduced in the main article because it appears to be of marginal relevance. It should be mentioned in the main article "History of Germany". all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote Stor stark7 : "The new map best presents the situation in a seminal period in German history (1945 - 1955)". That is one of the major reasons why the map won´t be installed. The section tells the story of DIVISION!, REUNIFICATION! & some of the RECENT HISTORY!. There is no reason for expanding or shifting the focus of these 3 major issues. There is no room for a map which does not even show the new/contemporary borders of Poland and could possibly confuse new readers. Lear 21 ( talk) 21:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I am also in favor of Map B, since it illustrates what is written in the text. Otherwise, it would not be clear which territorial losses (the Saar? GDR as territorial loss?) the text refers to. Any person with more than a superficial knowledge should moreover be aware of the fact that the Eastern territories were of great importance for German post-war history, at least up to 1991 and probably even up to now. I just want to mention politicians like Kurt Schumacher, Willy Brandt etc and the influence of the electorate originating from the Eastern territories. Even Helmut Kohl had a hard time when he finally decided to acknowledge the border with Poland in 1990/91. The reader not acquainted with German history should get non-biased and thorough information. I think most of the participants in this discussion are in favor of Map B and gave good reasons for their point of view. However, Map B was again reverted to Map A and I am not the person to start an edit war. So how should we proceed? Ulmensis ( talk) 11:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
There's only a single user promoting Map A, unwilling to acknowlegde any kind of arguments and pushing "his" map, he should stop that. Pommerland ( talk) 12:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
...for statistical reasons, read this:
http://www.ftd.de/politik/deutschland/:Weniger_Einwohner_Statistiker_lassen_Deutschland_schrumpfen/388881.html http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,567289,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.83.28.43 ( talk) 18:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
German news agency Deutsche Welle broke a story about how Germany's population statistics are off by 1.3 million people, due to 1.3 million not deregistering themselves from the census when they moved. I dunno if this should be noted in the Demographics section or not.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3506210,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canationalist ( talk • contribs) 07:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The standard figures used in Wikipedia country articles derive from the IMF not the World Bank. Please change as soon as possible. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
There has been repeatingly attempts to shift the focus of the section. A. Through imposing a new title. B.Through installing a map which captures additional territorial losses of the German Reich after WW2.
Some general facts first:
Conclusion: Both facts indicate a very, I repeat: very, very extended content of history which is unprecedented in Wikipedia country articles. It can be assumed therefore, that the written and visualized content sufficiently represents the historic events.
A. A classic occupation would involve an imposed administrative structure from outside lead by foreign stuff. This has not been the case in former West Germany. Therefore a renaming of the section is not justified (reason 1).
B. The Section "Division and Reunification" covers the historic events within the borders of the internationally recognised Federal Republic of Germany. The written content/ historic events are encompassing the time of 1945-1990 and of the newly reunified FRG. The major developments are accurately emphisized. The territorial losses take only half a sentence of the written content and are not further elaborated. The discussed new map would therefore cover a precedent of German history of marginal relevance (reason 1). Emphazising the territorial losses has almost no relevance of the German history narrative and can be regarded as misleading (reason 2). Because the new map not even presents the complete Polish territory, the map is a source of misinterpretation for new readers and is to elaborated for the purpose of the section (see general facts) (reason 3). The new map would change the focus of the historic narrative of the section and would therefore create an importance of less relevant events (reason 4). The focus now aims at the events within the Russian zone and the 3-Western Zone plus the events before and after the reunification. Not even one single sentence mentions the situation of newly created Poland in the years 1950-2008. Why? Because Poland does not belong to Germany (reason 5) or to say it the other way around, the history of Germany is told not the one of Poland. The Spanish, French and most notably the German (whose history section is significantly longer) Germany-Articles include such a map.(reason 6). To compare the different territories of the German Reich and the new FRG, somebody can easily see the changes by scrolling to the German Reich section.(reason 7) It seems to be redundant to present an almost identical map. The new map includes redundant and misleading information like the inclusion of the Saar protectorate (reason 8). This is highly specific historic narrative and is not mentioned within the text, neither it can be considered of relevance in a broader context. The flag of the protecorate is of highly specific degree. It is hardly known by German experts.
Because of A and B (reason 1-8), it appears not justified to rename the section or extend the visual content through the proposed map. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
My dear Lear 21, it is a bit difficult trying to follow your English, which is odd since you claim near native status, but I will try to respond to your arguments nevertheless.
@Tomeasy@Stor stark7 What comes next? Replacing Beethoven with Tokyo Hotel? Presenting Goebbels instead of Hitler. Mentioning all World Cup Final defeats of the German national football team? Visualizing a VW Beetle from the 70´s instead of the current Daimler S-class? I could go on for hours with these questions. At the center of it is one question: What is relevant and what is not. Both of you gave no evidence of aiming at the center of things. Let me try to ask another rethoric question. Are you both willing to install a map on the Russia article showing the loss of the Soviet Union territories after 1990? Are you both, Tomeasy and Stor stark7, are willing to install a map of territorial losses of the British Empire at the article United Kingdom and it´s history section? Are you both personally ready to install a map of territorial losses of the French colonial Empire in the history section of "France". Would you both argue with the same intensity and logic? I only can imagine what the answer would be like.
The new map would shift the focus of the section to an exclusive act right after the war. The well established old map does represent a whole period, the new map represents a blink in time. The new map does not even show a "real, newly established territory of Poland". @ Tomeasy: The German Reich territory and the last borders of Nazi Germany (1937) are almost the same. The difference of the map two sections above is clearly visible. Lear 21 ( talk) 21:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote Tomeasy: "How can it be that you not know this and still think you have the expertise" This question proofs exactly the attitude of unfocused debates. I´m not interested in discussions wether German Reich or Nazi Germany territory is SLIGHTLY or MASSIVELY different.
What interests me is "How to visually present the history of Germany from 1945 - 2008 in 2 images". The already written text gives a stark and useful hint: 1. Para = Allied forces in Germany 2. Para = Development in 2 German states 3. Para = Reunification 4. Para = Recent history
The developments in Poland/former German territories cover only half a sentence in the whole section. This is not without reason (BTW none of the first 3 paras have been written by myself). The relevant WW2 activities are covered in the Third Reich section. The last history section has a different focus aiming at the events in Germany within the new territory of 1990. And not Poland. You will hear this Hundred times if you want. The new map would shift the focus of the entire section to a brief WW2 aftermath act. This is not wise nor suits it the other major events from 1945-2008. Please, with sugar on the top, realize that the old map represents more of the history of Germany in this period than the new (even incomplete) map. Sometimes less is more, in this case certainly. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 19:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I already expressed my opinion at "History map reverts" because I at first didn't notice the discussion was being continued here. The section "Division and Reunification (1945-)" also covers the years 1945-49, therefore what happened in the Eastern territories is of relevance here. This should be illustrated by Map B, because otherwise the reader unacquainted with German history will be misguided and not know which territories were lost. If the section just covered the year starting from 1949, a map showing the FRG and the GDR only could also be used. However, a map showing the allied occupations zones witout the Eastern territories does not make any sense to me. Either you write about what happened in Germany from 1945-49 - then the former Eastern territories and the expulsion of Germans from there is of great relevance - or you write about later years, when the two German states were established. Ulmensis ( talk) 12:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
How about this one...Blue/Red-Map.... This map seems to cover most of the section´s written content, a significant part of the article´s introduction text (2. para), and the sections topic line. It also seems to be most representative for the period of a divided country. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
@Tomeasy: The missing EU involvement was rather an example of other important developments in German history. It was not a direct proposal to extend content, this should be discussed in another talk topic. BTW, the EU involvement is, even if not in History, covered in the article´s Introduction, in Economy and in Foreign Relations. In fact, it has its representation in the article as a whole. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Look, my only interest is the article itself and the content of it. I´m not here at Wikipedia to avoid anything uncomfortable nor seeing a so called majority having their way. The Germany article receives 500.000 clicks per month and is one of most read articles in Wikipedia Germany ranks #65 among 2.5 million. It is for many people around the globe the first contact with Germany and all its releated issues. The article has already received the highest merits (FA-class/article of the day) within Wikipedia, that´s why every step of change should be carefully analyzed on its implications.
The new map is a step forward in this stuck discussion and focuses even more the major state of being from 1949-1990. Hope you can support this view while still maintaining an eye on the articles developments. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 14:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I find this map dissatisfying, well, irritating: How are all those people around the globe for who this is the first contact with Germany are supposed to know what the blue and red areas mean ? - there is no explination. Why do the outlines of the Länder only exist in the Western (blue) part? And what on earth is the green thing? A lake? The divided City of Berlin (as mentioned in text)? Or (obviously, but just for me) only West-Berlin?-- Zarbi1 ( talk) 18:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
@User:HerkusMonte At the center of German history from 1945-2008 stands the period of a divided country. Two German states existed for almost 40 years. The new map illustrates that, the others fail in this respect. Lear 21 ( talk) 00:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Its pleasant seeing Map B back on the Article page. The following pertains to the description below the posted map B. I believe it is a mistake to lump both the Soviet and Polish administered Eastern Germany areas in the same statement. I say this because it appears the Soviet takeover of northern East Prussia was granted by Potsdam, etc., and therefore not contingent upon a final WW2 Peace Treaty, whereas the Polish "Temporary Administered Areas" were to be ultimately resolved (in terms of actual size & ethnic composition) at the presumed WW2 Final Peace Treaty. ANNRC ( talk) 09:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Since the section is deigned to be already "too long" (& apparently there is no yielding on making it any longer), the battle of the maps may be endless. In other words, a year from now, for example, the battle of the maps may be ongoing. ANNRC ( talk) 23:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposed Solution of Maps issue from a fairly new "contributer": Can the system be tweaked to "stack" 2 maps (i.e., the above one & Map B) in the space currently occupied by the above one on the Article page? In other words, if the descriptive text can be dropped & then can the space be used for effecting a stacked map display. Maybe the software doesn't allow such things, and the map wars will continue. ANNRC ( talk) 03:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
While the Reunification with the DDR has been more difficult than expected as the DDR had a different currency, a different political system and a relatively huge population of over 16 million people, Reunification with Austria would be much easier with a common currency and a population of just 8 million people driving Germany´s population to 91 million people.
After all France is talking right now about integrating Wallonia (Belgium), a move that would take its population over 65 million people.
Ein Volk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.57.49.59 ( talk) 17:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
What is the point? -- 217.83.38.30 ( talk) 20:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Since May 1. 2008 the State of Schleswig-Holstein das its own Constitional Court in Schleswig. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.25.136.186 ( talk) 08:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I endorse the compromise implemented by user: HerkusMonte, i.e., to show two maps.
Of course, it is not our aim to increase the size of the article by another image, but even more it is not my aim to pertain the instability this article had over the past three weeks. Unfortunately, we are not able to discuss this issue without reverting each other on the article itself.
We are facing the problem that Lear insists on showing a map that reflects the two-state history in a very obvious way. This is certainly an argument, even though not the paramount one for the rest of us. In view that many other editors have tried to explain in various ways why a more precise map is better, and seeing that Lear will maintain imposing his wish by reverts on the article, which is the worst for the article, I advocate to urge a stable solution now. That is one that Lear can also support.
Apart from the size problem of the article, I think that the two map compromise is anyway the best approach. Tomeasy T C 10:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The two map proposal indicates only one thing. That the responsible editor or the supporting editors have no experience of creating or maintaining a high quality FA-article. Instead, this proposal clearly lowers the quality and questions the ability of the article to focus on important content in general. You won´t find this over extensive mapping of historic incidents within a period of 10 years in not one, I repeat, not one! comparable country article.
There is a reason why the section is called DIVISION and REUNIFICATION. I seriously wonder if any of the map-B supporters ever lived in Germany or Europe or attended history classes or watches TV (at least). There is only room for one map. This map has to show 2 German states. Everything else is of minor relevance and can be mentioned in the main History article. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It has been more than obvious in the past weeks where the majority stands. Thus, I am pessimistic that this poll is going to help. However, I do not want to obstruct any attempt that leads to a stable version. Therefore, I SUPPORT the usage of Map B. Tomeasy T C 19:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One question for Lear 21 regarding his following words: "There is a reason why the section is called DIVISION and REUNIFICATION. . . . There is only room for one map. This map has to show 2 German states.": Are you saying that TWO German states existed in 1945? (I will answer for you: of course not). In 1949 Germany existed in 4 (FOUR) (or 6 if Saarland & Berlin are considered) areas. The 4 areas would be FRG, DDR, Polish Temporarily Administered Areas, & Soviet Temporarily Administered Area. The only thing "reunified" in 1990 was the 1945 agreed-upon occupation zones, to include Berlin. BTW I am USA born, with 2 German grandparents. JJC ANNRC ( talk) 04:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I also SUPPORT the usage of Map B. for reasons we've meticulously tried to explain in the sections above.-- Stor stark7 Speak 21:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I SUPPORT Map B. As mentioned above, the map used at West German schools to describe the political situation in Germany up to 1990 was something like Map B. It was only after 1990 that the Eastern territories were usually excluded. The Eastern territories played a significant role in German post-war history, as did the millions of refugees from these areas. Ulmensis ( talk) 16:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
but yet it mentions nothing about the fact that much of modern day germany was conquered and occupied by the hunnish hordes-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 23:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Th Huns came and went without leaving "significant" trace. No importances for the Germany article. The obscure "facts"/assertions above are semi-fictional. -- 217.83.6.222 ( talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Boson ( talk) 19:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article under indefinite semi protection? Tomeasy T C 13:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I am having Italy on watch and therefore very well understand what you mean. This article is unprotected and about 90% of its edits are reverts or reverted. It's really annoying! What would be the regular procedure to apply for semi-protection? Tomeasy T C 07:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
The correct german term for preventive detention is Sicherungsverwahrung. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.130.136 ( talk) 18:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for protecting this page wikipedia, the encyclopedia that "anyone can edit".
What is this baloney?
"Only the Social Democratic Party of Germany voted against it; the Communists were not able to present opposition, as their deputies had already been murdered or imprisoned.[16][17] A centralised totalitarian state was established by a series of moves and decrees making Germany a single-party state. Industry was closely regulated with quotas and requirements, to shift the economy towards a war production base."
Both facts are most certainly not true. With the first, the links cited mention nothing regarding murders of communist officials prior to 1933. With the former, it is absolute nonsense to say that Germany was moving towards a war production base as early as 1933 and even as late as 1936. Where is the source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.42.218.74 ( talk) 01:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, I've just added a hatlink re. FRG - I hope there are no objections? I saw on the redirect's page, incidentally, that it had been changed from a West Germany to a Germany redirect and thought I'd just offer both links to avoid going back and forth. It Is Me Here ( talk) 21:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
It would be better to say "Belgium an Netherlands at west, and France at south-West of Germany" As a whole France is not west from Germany but also as much south of it. Only about 40% of France is strait west of the southern part of Germany, it is an exception, About 60% of France is situated below Germany's most southern point. all the eastern strip of France is situated strait south from Rheinland; from Lorraine, Alsace to Provence and Corsica passing by Jura and Savoy are directly south from Germany. So... just west ? while Austria, which is far to be a southern than France is south of Germany ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 ( talk) 23:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we take Hegel out of the philosophy section and give him his own section? I recommend placing the Hegel section above Philosophy, Arts, Literature, Music and Culture. Perhaps we can just merge all the subsections under one big section that weaves them all in under one Hegelian masterwork-- The edifice of the German philosopher's conceptual framework encompasses them all, consumes them all, and has outlasted them all. I vote for the immediate merging of all German culture under a heading titled Hegel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.222.59 ( talk) 09:26, 28 September 2008 (UTC)