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As far as I know, Overmans does not list losses during the battles in Germany 1945 as separated on the two fronts, but simply as losses in Germany during 1945. These losses of 1,230,045 men, could however, according to Overmans be attributed at the rate of a certain percent to the Western front (I am not sure, but I think it is 40 %), but as it looks in the article, these losses are fully attributed to the Eastern front, since the losses on the Western front until the 31/12 1944 has not been adjusted with these losses (Overmans put the losses on the Western front until the 31/12 1944 as 339,000, and as you can see, this is the same number as the one quoted for the Western front during the whole war). Maybe the same mistake is done in the article about the Eastern front, I have not checked, but someone with access to Overmans writings needs to take a close look at these numbers. /Best regards. EriFr ( talk) 11:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The numbers listed on the German civilian casualties are almost certainly too low. And the numbers for the Allied bombing are too high. The German government has estimated that about 250,000 civilian dies during the western Allied bombing offensive. The US Strategic bombing survey estimated 305,000 civilian deaths due to the Western allies bombing.
As for total civilian deaths, the "History of the Second World War" published by Marshall Cavendish estimated upwards of 3.9 Million German civilain deaths - most of the during the winter of 44/45 when the Soviets pushed into East Prussia and the other eastern German territories. And this does not even count the approximately 2 Million German deats from 45-47 for the expulsion of Germans from the eastern territiries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekozak ( talk • contribs) 16:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC) ( Mekozak ( talk) 16:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC))
3 million expellees were killed or died during their forced flight and expulsion after 1945. This is the historically correct number.-- 92.230.232.28 ( talk) 17:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Here [ [2]] I have made some general remarks on Overmans' statistical methods some months ago. In fact, he reaches his figures not by going into an archive and using official documents, but by spot-checking a few thousand card files as a sample for the fate of single German soldiers. Then he makes extrapolations to get an overall picture for about 18.000.000 soldiers. The most dubious matter are, however, his tables which give very exact figures up to the last digit. Of course everyone will get to tables first, especially readers who do not speak German and are not willing to work through the whole book. And in an appendix tables are easily accessible all the more. For example, he states that exactly 2.742.909 died on the Eastern Front until 31/12/1944. But this seemingly exact figure has been reached by an extrapolation and will never be found in any OKW document or archive. But by giving exact figures in tables Overmans is able to give the impression that he is right. On the other hand he states that the registration system used by the Wehrmacht to count the casualties was simply inaccurate. For criticism on Overmans' method see here [ [3]]. We should give other sources for this article as well (the page ww2stats.com could serve as a starting point, there are original documents from OKW and so on) and try to "liberalize" the matter by expanding the text.-- Akribes ( talk) 19:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Today I corrected the figures per Overmans. I own the book and have verified the figures. The figures that were there before are not in Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is page 336 of Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg on Google books, this backs up my corrections [4] -- Woogie10w ( talk) 17:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the resume of Rüdiger Overmans in German. For those who do read German, do a Google translation. His credentials are impeccable. [5] -- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The previous entry above mentions "the resume of Rüdiger Overmans in German". The line of text in the article: "Overmans believes that there is not sufficient data..." appears just after the first table.
The initial statement assumes that the reader understands German, the second part assumes that the reader knows who 'Overmans' is or was. As far as this reader is concerned, neither is the case.
It was not until I got to note 5 that I found out that he is/was a doctor.
A doctor of what?
If he was introduced in an article lede (as per the MoS), things would be a lot more clear. Something like "The author/historian Dr Rüdiger Overmans, in his research..."
I would write one myself, but I don't know the gentleman from Adam!
RASAM ( talk) 21:46, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
For detailed figures of the German Prisoners of War held by the Western Allies, a lot of information is available in the SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force) Weekly Intelligence Summaries, held at the Eisenhower Library. These figures give the monthly totals of PoWs on the Western Front from DDay through to April 26th 1945. I suggest these figures could supplement Rudiger Overmans table of German PoW's held by Western Allies in the section German Prisoners of War. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 15:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Were these figures published in a reliable source that can be verified? If so please provide a citation. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. These Weekly Intelligence Summaries are available from the Eisenhower Library http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/. Copies can be obtained for the cost of postage and photocopying. These are primary sources and are freely available. They hold an enormous amount of very factual information, which was compiled within a few days of the events happening. It is noticable how many figures of German PoWs captured are given. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 16:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
These are primary sources that cannot be used on Wikipedia. We need to find a reliable published source that cite these figures. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. I have many published sources. Here is just one. Eisenhower's 'Crusade in Europe' published 1948 by Heinemann page 452, 'During the first three weeks of April the western Allies captured more than a million prisoners.' Footnote 18.
Footnote 18 states 'SHAEF G-2 Summary, Diary, Office C-in-C, Book XV, under date April 22, 1945'. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 10:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for replying and pointing towards General George Marshall's Biennal Report, Center of Military History,1996 which looked with some interest.There alternative figures for the number of Germans and Italians who surrendered in Tunisia. Eisenhower in his book 'Crusade in Europe' on page 172 gives to be 240,000, of whom approximately 125,000 were German. Montgomery in his 'Memoirs' published 1958 gives the figure of 248,000 men on page 153. Ellis in his 'World War 2 Databook' 1993 gives the figure 266,000 Germans and Italians pows in Tunisia only. Hastings in 'All hell let loose' gives the figure of 238,000 prisoners taken on May 13th,1943 on page 379. The Daily Telegraph on May 12th,1943 states, 'The African campaign is over ... of the prisoners 110,000 are German.' Is it possible that General Marshall when he states in his table of German and Italian losses that 130,000 Germans and Italians were captured in Tunisia, he actually means 130,000 Germans were captured in Tunisia, which is in much closer agreement with other accounts. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 11:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
IMO the alternative figures for the number of Germans and Italians who surrendered in Tunisia belong here: German casualties in World War II#A compilation of published statistics for German casualties. Your research drives home the point that statistics for German World War II military casualties are divergent and contradictory. It is not our job as editors of Wikipedia to comment on the veracity of George Marshall's Biennial Report, we can only post what our sources tell us. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
A possible explanation for the discrepancy is that following the Italian surrender in 1943, 100,000 Italians volunteered to work as 'co-operators'. They were given considerable freedom and mixed with local people. [6] (click on read more) -- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does it look like he was shot through the helmet from behind with a high velocity bullet? If so quite a suspicious KIA designation, no? 86.131.45.27 ( talk) 07:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Possibly one of those fourteen year olds ordered by Hitler in the last month to defend Berlin to the death, who was executed trying to escape. Profhum ( talk) 13:47, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Really, this page should be for serious discussion of the topic, not a chat room.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:04, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
What did happen to this data [7] - please do not remove it from the article: "The West German government in October 1956 estimated 635,000 civilian deaths during the air war in Germany and the annexed territories, 500,000 killed by strategic bombing and 135,000 from air raids in the 1945 flight and evacuations on the eastern front. They also estimated an additional 20,000 civilians, not included here, who were killed during the land campaign in Germany but are included in the schedule below for Total Population Losses 1939-1946. Civilian deaths in the 1945 air raids on eastern Front after 1/31/1945 are also included with the figures for the losses during the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50) → Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50.Herausgeber: Statistisches Bundesamt - Wiesbaden. - Stuttgart: Verlag W. Kohlhammer, 1958 p. 14" -- IIIraute ( talk) 20:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The numbers are still there-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
What's that all about? → [8] -- IIIraute ( talk) 20:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Overy is a well known and respected historian. His recent analysis needs to be brought to the attention of readers. The official figures of 1956 are by no means the final word on the topic.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I intend to take a peek at the Overy book when I go to Barnes and Noble. We need to know how Overy arrived at the 353,000. Stay tuned.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I have borrowed the Overy book from the local library and intend to include his analysis in the article. An important point that must be made is that the 353,000 air raid dead is based Overy's calculations.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
A minor point that must be made is that Overy is clearly in error when he cites the official figures for German total air raid dead at 625,000, that correct total is 635,000. The doubting Thomas's can check the official German figures here on page 142 Erich Hampe "Der Zivile Luftschutz im Zweiten Weltkrieg" pp.138-142 -- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
So according to Overy, circa 350,000 Germans were killed by strategic bombing campaigns 1940-1945? In order to contrast that better with the 90,000 casualties due to the bombing of Britain within the same timeframe and the 26,000 civilian casualties due to the 4-week bombing of Warsaw in 1939, it could be noteworthy to include Overy's precise figures (if he gives them) minus Austrians and ethnic Germans outside of Germany's 1937 borders, German military and police personnel, forced laborers and POWs in Germany.
After all, the Nazi regime had sort of made it an official policy to purposefully not shelter POWs and forced laborers from air raids in order to include them in propaganda figures of air raid deaths, and Austria as well as ethnic Germans were part of the regime's aggressive and völkisch propaganda expansion campaigns, whereas neither the UK nor Poland had either during WWII.
One reason to re-examine the figures that way is that currently there's a growing New Right movement in Germany (think (anti-Muslim) Pegida/(anti-American) Pegada, Reichsbürgerbewegung, Alternative for Germany, Hogesa, identitarian movement, and last but not least National Democratic Party of Germany who have propagated this for decades) demanding to classify the WWII strategic bombings by the RAF as well as the US Air Force (and also similarly absurdly bloated casualty figures ranging up to tens of millions for those Rheinwiesenlager POW camps that were run by the US Army) as a war crime and a crime against humanity on par with the Holocaust. -- 2003:56:6D1B:C673:512F:21E5:254A:ABEE ( talk) 11:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you have a reliable source that supports your comments, on Wikipedia we cannot post our personal POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Overy's book does not support your comments. The bottom line here is that Wikipedia is not a soapbox to push our own POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Overy does not breakout German civilians within the German borders of 1937, b.) German military and police personnel, c.) Austrian and ethnic German civilians, d.) POWs and forced laborers in Germany. But He does include in a separate section the deaths of civilians killed by Allied bombing in France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands. My suggestion is that you get the Overy book rather than speculate on its content-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
The neo Nazi propaganda in Germany [9] is unknown in the English speaking world. Let's leave sleeping dogs lay and keep it off Wikipedia. As a young American guest in German homes 45 years ago the older people would bring up this topic, I kept my mouth shut. This is nothing new.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering what you think of the work done by Rudiger Overmans regarding German WWII casualties. I have been trying to research casualties specifically against the Western Allies, and well as early in the war. I saw for example Overmans list total dead for the Italian Campaign as 150,660, but then Feldgrau.com states it was till November of 11/30/44 47,873. Why is there such a big difference in numbers? Thanks for your time! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregcorssino ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Please read this article which outlines the study by Overmans who maintains that the statistics compiled during the war by the high commard are incomplete. The figure of 47,873 war dead in Italy are German high command statistics taken from Müller-Hillebrand Das Heer 1933–1945 Vol.3 Page 265 The statistics on the Feldgrau webpage are for the Feldheer(Army) only and cover up until November 30, 1944.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
There is a self published webpage Human Losses in World War II that has copied statistical data on WW2 casualties from German documents prepared during the war [10] This compiliation should be used with caution because the documents are primary source material that can only be used on Wikipedia to support material that is in a secondary source. An important caveat is that the figures they list do not add down in all cases, the authors of this webpage have not proof read the material they posted. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the response and information.
Gregcorssino (
talk) 19:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)Gregcorssino
You are welcome, feel free to drop a line if you need additional information.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
In response to Woogie's question about my edit: I tried to briefly summarize with the edit, but let me expand upon that. I wanted to first paragraph to be broader, stating the "official" figure, but also pointing out that there are several other dissenting viewpoints (the previous version of that paragraph focused on Overy - his estimates are valuable and likely more accurate than the 1956 report, but he's not the only one discussed in the following paragraphs). I also moved Overy's analysis below that of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, not because his was any less important or accurate, but for the sake of chronology (USSBS came shortly after WW2, Overy's came just a couple of years ago - It's true that the German estimate came a little later than USSBS's, but it should remain first in the listing because that is the "official" report against which the others are compared). As far as my deletion of the Bombing of Dresden paragraph, I did so because it is already discussed 2 paragraphs earlier, so it was redundant (the earlier paragraph does not include the now-accepted 25,000 death figure, so if you want to put that in there you can; however, I think it suffices to have it say that the death toll was inflated, and have the link to the main Dresden Bombing article for people to click on if they want more details). There were a few other minor edits (e.g. link to the Eastern Front article), but I don't think those are the ones you're asking me to explain. Hope that helps. DoctorEric ( talk) 23:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm currently reading Hartmann, Christian (2013). Operations Barbarossa: Nazi Germany's War in the East, 1941–1945. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
ISBN
978-0-19-966078-0. {{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) and the book states:
The book is short (only 160 pages, so Hartmann does not go into detail, but I believe the book is reflective of the current German historiography. Here's the German wiki article for the author: de:Christian Hartmann (Historiker) -
How does this square with this sentence in the lead?
References
K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
A recent study by the German historian Rüdiger Overmans found that the German High Command statistics are not reliable, he estimated German military dead at 5.3 million. [1] [2] However the German government still maintains that its records list 4.3 million dead and missing military personnel. [3] [4]
References
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) "Since the end of the 1990s, we have known that the total German military losses were actually far higher that had long been believed: close to 5,318,000 men"
Thank you for implementing the change. K.e.coffman ( talk) 17:47, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Götz Aly quotes numbers of death penalties - both civilian and military. I don't know, if the numbers include Czech and Polish citizens in annexed lands. Xx236 ( talk) 08:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
German sources quoted in this page assume that only (Volks)Germans were drafted. Poles in the Wehrmacht describes forced VolksGermanization. Xx236 ( talk) 08:13, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Good point Xx236, I will add details-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a section headed “Total Missing and Presumed Dead (not including POW) per Overmans” describing the number of civilians presumed dead. Under there, in the table, is a column headed “Amount”. Despite current trends in social media, the English language does not refer to “amounts” of people. It refers to numbers of people. As I don’t want to damage the page because I don’t know what I’m doing, would somebody mind altering this to reflect standard English please? Flanker235 ( talk) 22:30, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
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As far as I know, Overmans does not list losses during the battles in Germany 1945 as separated on the two fronts, but simply as losses in Germany during 1945. These losses of 1,230,045 men, could however, according to Overmans be attributed at the rate of a certain percent to the Western front (I am not sure, but I think it is 40 %), but as it looks in the article, these losses are fully attributed to the Eastern front, since the losses on the Western front until the 31/12 1944 has not been adjusted with these losses (Overmans put the losses on the Western front until the 31/12 1944 as 339,000, and as you can see, this is the same number as the one quoted for the Western front during the whole war). Maybe the same mistake is done in the article about the Eastern front, I have not checked, but someone with access to Overmans writings needs to take a close look at these numbers. /Best regards. EriFr ( talk) 11:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The numbers listed on the German civilian casualties are almost certainly too low. And the numbers for the Allied bombing are too high. The German government has estimated that about 250,000 civilian dies during the western Allied bombing offensive. The US Strategic bombing survey estimated 305,000 civilian deaths due to the Western allies bombing.
As for total civilian deaths, the "History of the Second World War" published by Marshall Cavendish estimated upwards of 3.9 Million German civilain deaths - most of the during the winter of 44/45 when the Soviets pushed into East Prussia and the other eastern German territories. And this does not even count the approximately 2 Million German deats from 45-47 for the expulsion of Germans from the eastern territiries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekozak ( talk • contribs) 16:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC) ( Mekozak ( talk) 16:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC))
3 million expellees were killed or died during their forced flight and expulsion after 1945. This is the historically correct number.-- 92.230.232.28 ( talk) 17:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Here [ [2]] I have made some general remarks on Overmans' statistical methods some months ago. In fact, he reaches his figures not by going into an archive and using official documents, but by spot-checking a few thousand card files as a sample for the fate of single German soldiers. Then he makes extrapolations to get an overall picture for about 18.000.000 soldiers. The most dubious matter are, however, his tables which give very exact figures up to the last digit. Of course everyone will get to tables first, especially readers who do not speak German and are not willing to work through the whole book. And in an appendix tables are easily accessible all the more. For example, he states that exactly 2.742.909 died on the Eastern Front until 31/12/1944. But this seemingly exact figure has been reached by an extrapolation and will never be found in any OKW document or archive. But by giving exact figures in tables Overmans is able to give the impression that he is right. On the other hand he states that the registration system used by the Wehrmacht to count the casualties was simply inaccurate. For criticism on Overmans' method see here [ [3]]. We should give other sources for this article as well (the page ww2stats.com could serve as a starting point, there are original documents from OKW and so on) and try to "liberalize" the matter by expanding the text.-- Akribes ( talk) 19:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Today I corrected the figures per Overmans. I own the book and have verified the figures. The figures that were there before are not in Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:56, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is page 336 of Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg on Google books, this backs up my corrections [4] -- Woogie10w ( talk) 17:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is the resume of Rüdiger Overmans in German. For those who do read German, do a Google translation. His credentials are impeccable. [5] -- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
The previous entry above mentions "the resume of Rüdiger Overmans in German". The line of text in the article: "Overmans believes that there is not sufficient data..." appears just after the first table.
The initial statement assumes that the reader understands German, the second part assumes that the reader knows who 'Overmans' is or was. As far as this reader is concerned, neither is the case.
It was not until I got to note 5 that I found out that he is/was a doctor.
A doctor of what?
If he was introduced in an article lede (as per the MoS), things would be a lot more clear. Something like "The author/historian Dr Rüdiger Overmans, in his research..."
I would write one myself, but I don't know the gentleman from Adam!
RASAM ( talk) 21:46, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
For detailed figures of the German Prisoners of War held by the Western Allies, a lot of information is available in the SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force) Weekly Intelligence Summaries, held at the Eisenhower Library. These figures give the monthly totals of PoWs on the Western Front from DDay through to April 26th 1945. I suggest these figures could supplement Rudiger Overmans table of German PoW's held by Western Allies in the section German Prisoners of War. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 15:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Were these figures published in a reliable source that can be verified? If so please provide a citation. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 15:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. These Weekly Intelligence Summaries are available from the Eisenhower Library http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/. Copies can be obtained for the cost of postage and photocopying. These are primary sources and are freely available. They hold an enormous amount of very factual information, which was compiled within a few days of the events happening. It is noticable how many figures of German PoWs captured are given. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 16:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
These are primary sources that cannot be used on Wikipedia. We need to find a reliable published source that cite these figures. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for replying. I have many published sources. Here is just one. Eisenhower's 'Crusade in Europe' published 1948 by Heinemann page 452, 'During the first three weeks of April the western Allies captured more than a million prisoners.' Footnote 18.
Footnote 18 states 'SHAEF G-2 Summary, Diary, Office C-in-C, Book XV, under date April 22, 1945'. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 10:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for replying and pointing towards General George Marshall's Biennal Report, Center of Military History,1996 which looked with some interest.There alternative figures for the number of Germans and Italians who surrendered in Tunisia. Eisenhower in his book 'Crusade in Europe' on page 172 gives to be 240,000, of whom approximately 125,000 were German. Montgomery in his 'Memoirs' published 1958 gives the figure of 248,000 men on page 153. Ellis in his 'World War 2 Databook' 1993 gives the figure 266,000 Germans and Italians pows in Tunisia only. Hastings in 'All hell let loose' gives the figure of 238,000 prisoners taken on May 13th,1943 on page 379. The Daily Telegraph on May 12th,1943 states, 'The African campaign is over ... of the prisoners 110,000 are German.' Is it possible that General Marshall when he states in his table of German and Italian losses that 130,000 Germans and Italians were captured in Tunisia, he actually means 130,000 Germans were captured in Tunisia, which is in much closer agreement with other accounts. Jtbrown43 ( talk) 11:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
IMO the alternative figures for the number of Germans and Italians who surrendered in Tunisia belong here: German casualties in World War II#A compilation of published statistics for German casualties. Your research drives home the point that statistics for German World War II military casualties are divergent and contradictory. It is not our job as editors of Wikipedia to comment on the veracity of George Marshall's Biennial Report, we can only post what our sources tell us. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
A possible explanation for the discrepancy is that following the Italian surrender in 1943, 100,000 Italians volunteered to work as 'co-operators'. They were given considerable freedom and mixed with local people. [6] (click on read more) -- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does it look like he was shot through the helmet from behind with a high velocity bullet? If so quite a suspicious KIA designation, no? 86.131.45.27 ( talk) 07:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Possibly one of those fourteen year olds ordered by Hitler in the last month to defend Berlin to the death, who was executed trying to escape. Profhum ( talk) 13:47, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Really, this page should be for serious discussion of the topic, not a chat room.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:04, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
What did happen to this data [7] - please do not remove it from the article: "The West German government in October 1956 estimated 635,000 civilian deaths during the air war in Germany and the annexed territories, 500,000 killed by strategic bombing and 135,000 from air raids in the 1945 flight and evacuations on the eastern front. They also estimated an additional 20,000 civilians, not included here, who were killed during the land campaign in Germany but are included in the schedule below for Total Population Losses 1939-1946. Civilian deaths in the 1945 air raids on eastern Front after 1/31/1945 are also included with the figures for the losses during the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50) → Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50.Herausgeber: Statistisches Bundesamt - Wiesbaden. - Stuttgart: Verlag W. Kohlhammer, 1958 p. 14" -- IIIraute ( talk) 20:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The numbers are still there-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
What's that all about? → [8] -- IIIraute ( talk) 20:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Overy is a well known and respected historian. His recent analysis needs to be brought to the attention of readers. The official figures of 1956 are by no means the final word on the topic.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I intend to take a peek at the Overy book when I go to Barnes and Noble. We need to know how Overy arrived at the 353,000. Stay tuned.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 01:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I have borrowed the Overy book from the local library and intend to include his analysis in the article. An important point that must be made is that the 353,000 air raid dead is based Overy's calculations.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
A minor point that must be made is that Overy is clearly in error when he cites the official figures for German total air raid dead at 625,000, that correct total is 635,000. The doubting Thomas's can check the official German figures here on page 142 Erich Hampe "Der Zivile Luftschutz im Zweiten Weltkrieg" pp.138-142 -- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
So according to Overy, circa 350,000 Germans were killed by strategic bombing campaigns 1940-1945? In order to contrast that better with the 90,000 casualties due to the bombing of Britain within the same timeframe and the 26,000 civilian casualties due to the 4-week bombing of Warsaw in 1939, it could be noteworthy to include Overy's precise figures (if he gives them) minus Austrians and ethnic Germans outside of Germany's 1937 borders, German military and police personnel, forced laborers and POWs in Germany.
After all, the Nazi regime had sort of made it an official policy to purposefully not shelter POWs and forced laborers from air raids in order to include them in propaganda figures of air raid deaths, and Austria as well as ethnic Germans were part of the regime's aggressive and völkisch propaganda expansion campaigns, whereas neither the UK nor Poland had either during WWII.
One reason to re-examine the figures that way is that currently there's a growing New Right movement in Germany (think (anti-Muslim) Pegida/(anti-American) Pegada, Reichsbürgerbewegung, Alternative for Germany, Hogesa, identitarian movement, and last but not least National Democratic Party of Germany who have propagated this for decades) demanding to classify the WWII strategic bombings by the RAF as well as the US Air Force (and also similarly absurdly bloated casualty figures ranging up to tens of millions for those Rheinwiesenlager POW camps that were run by the US Army) as a war crime and a crime against humanity on par with the Holocaust. -- 2003:56:6D1B:C673:512F:21E5:254A:ABEE ( talk) 11:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you have a reliable source that supports your comments, on Wikipedia we cannot post our personal POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Overy's book does not support your comments. The bottom line here is that Wikipedia is not a soapbox to push our own POV-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Overy does not breakout German civilians within the German borders of 1937, b.) German military and police personnel, c.) Austrian and ethnic German civilians, d.) POWs and forced laborers in Germany. But He does include in a separate section the deaths of civilians killed by Allied bombing in France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands. My suggestion is that you get the Overy book rather than speculate on its content-- Woogie10w ( talk) 12:49, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
The neo Nazi propaganda in Germany [9] is unknown in the English speaking world. Let's leave sleeping dogs lay and keep it off Wikipedia. As a young American guest in German homes 45 years ago the older people would bring up this topic, I kept my mouth shut. This is nothing new.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello, I was wondering what you think of the work done by Rudiger Overmans regarding German WWII casualties. I have been trying to research casualties specifically against the Western Allies, and well as early in the war. I saw for example Overmans list total dead for the Italian Campaign as 150,660, but then Feldgrau.com states it was till November of 11/30/44 47,873. Why is there such a big difference in numbers? Thanks for your time! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregcorssino ( talk • contribs) 02:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Please read this article which outlines the study by Overmans who maintains that the statistics compiled during the war by the high commard are incomplete. The figure of 47,873 war dead in Italy are German high command statistics taken from Müller-Hillebrand Das Heer 1933–1945 Vol.3 Page 265 The statistics on the Feldgrau webpage are for the Feldheer(Army) only and cover up until November 30, 1944.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 11:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
There is a self published webpage Human Losses in World War II that has copied statistical data on WW2 casualties from German documents prepared during the war [10] This compiliation should be used with caution because the documents are primary source material that can only be used on Wikipedia to support material that is in a secondary source. An important caveat is that the figures they list do not add down in all cases, the authors of this webpage have not proof read the material they posted. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 16:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the response and information.
Gregcorssino (
talk) 19:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)Gregcorssino
You are welcome, feel free to drop a line if you need additional information.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 20:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
In response to Woogie's question about my edit: I tried to briefly summarize with the edit, but let me expand upon that. I wanted to first paragraph to be broader, stating the "official" figure, but also pointing out that there are several other dissenting viewpoints (the previous version of that paragraph focused on Overy - his estimates are valuable and likely more accurate than the 1956 report, but he's not the only one discussed in the following paragraphs). I also moved Overy's analysis below that of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, not because his was any less important or accurate, but for the sake of chronology (USSBS came shortly after WW2, Overy's came just a couple of years ago - It's true that the German estimate came a little later than USSBS's, but it should remain first in the listing because that is the "official" report against which the others are compared). As far as my deletion of the Bombing of Dresden paragraph, I did so because it is already discussed 2 paragraphs earlier, so it was redundant (the earlier paragraph does not include the now-accepted 25,000 death figure, so if you want to put that in there you can; however, I think it suffices to have it say that the death toll was inflated, and have the link to the main Dresden Bombing article for people to click on if they want more details). There were a few other minor edits (e.g. link to the Eastern Front article), but I don't think those are the ones you're asking me to explain. Hope that helps. DoctorEric ( talk) 23:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm currently reading Hartmann, Christian (2013). Operations Barbarossa: Nazi Germany's War in the East, 1941–1945. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
ISBN
978-0-19-966078-0. {{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) and the book states:
The book is short (only 160 pages, so Hartmann does not go into detail, but I believe the book is reflective of the current German historiography. Here's the German wiki article for the author: de:Christian Hartmann (Historiker) -
How does this square with this sentence in the lead?
References
K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
A recent study by the German historian Rüdiger Overmans found that the German High Command statistics are not reliable, he estimated German military dead at 5.3 million. [1] [2] However the German government still maintains that its records list 4.3 million dead and missing military personnel. [3] [4]
References
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) "Since the end of the 1990s, we have known that the total German military losses were actually far higher that had long been believed: close to 5,318,000 men"
Thank you for implementing the change. K.e.coffman ( talk) 17:47, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Götz Aly quotes numbers of death penalties - both civilian and military. I don't know, if the numbers include Czech and Polish citizens in annexed lands. Xx236 ( talk) 08:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
German sources quoted in this page assume that only (Volks)Germans were drafted. Poles in the Wehrmacht describes forced VolksGermanization. Xx236 ( talk) 08:13, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Good point Xx236, I will add details-- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
There is a section headed “Total Missing and Presumed Dead (not including POW) per Overmans” describing the number of civilians presumed dead. Under there, in the table, is a column headed “Amount”. Despite current trends in social media, the English language does not refer to “amounts” of people. It refers to numbers of people. As I don’t want to damage the page because I don’t know what I’m doing, would somebody mind altering this to reflect standard English please? Flanker235 ( talk) 22:30, 2 November 2018 (UTC)