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This article needs a huge amount of clean-up. Posner is an author who has written ten books. But the majority of this article is about some of the content from a single chapter in one of his books. I don't want to turn this article into a debate about conspiracy theories, but we need some perspective. MK2 22:32, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and snipped out the paragraph. I'm reposting it here for, well, whatever you want. Gamaliel 19:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Posner theorized that when Oswald fired his first shot he fired it into the foliage of a closeby tree, only 62' away from Oswald. Posner theorized that first bullet was deflected by a tree branch then traveled some 425', hit the south upper curbstone of Main Street, and caused the right facial cheek wound on James Tague (Tague has always stated he was struck concurrent with the second or third shot --or second or third volley of shots-- Tague remembered hearing). Tague has stated that Posner has never interviewed him, while Posner responds that he has tapes of himself interviewing Tague for his book and cites his phone bill as evidence of conversations with Tague and others. Posner theorized that Oswald fired a second shot less than one second after Kennedy became visible again from behind the tree at Zapruder film frame 207 to 208. Posner theorized that this second bullet was the " single bullet theory" bullet that passed through both Kennedy and Governor John Connally at Zapruder film frame 223, causing seven wounds (counting each entrance and exit wound seperately) while breaking two major body bones, yet the bullet was later found at Parkland Hospital in nearly intact condition, having lost only a documented 1.5% of its average weight. Posner theorized that the third and final 265.3' shot was fired by Oswald and killed Kennedy when it struck him in the right rear of his head between Zapruder frame 312 and 313.
With the "offending" passage removed, shouldn't the article be considered neutral now? Roygbiv666
Someone who cares about this more than I do might want to add this in: The erased CIA tapes that are at the center of a current scandal may have contained footage of the interrogation detailed in Posner's 2003 book. [1] And while you're at it, please clean up that section a bit.-- Rockero ( talk) 07:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Where did that photo come from, and how relevent is it? Posner is over 50 now. He looks like a punk rocker in the pic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.87.221 ( talk) 15:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
CIA agent E. Howard Hunt's confession to being part of the JFK conspiracy has now been made public. Likewise, the evidence, from the NORAD standing down to the obviously controlled demolition of WTC 7, makes it obvious to the un-brainwashed that 9/11 was staged by the US government. Whether this guy just freelances or actually is contracted to cover-up the crimes of the deep state is somewhat irrelevant here, either way this guy is a professional liar and a traitor to the US constitution.
Why does Wikipedia have to lie too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.232.124 ( talk) 20:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
There are no links provided to the quotes--which are attributed to the NY Times, Gary Wills and the LA Times--praising Posner's "investigative journalism" in the bio section. Can these quotes be verified?---
This page was recently vandalized below the References area. (some silliness about being in the Nazi party and killing Michael Jackson. Perhaps it should be locked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.22.158 ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It has been vandalized twice now but it's been cleaned up pretty fast both times -- Trishawiki ( talk) 14:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Critical references and information are repeatedly being removed to minimize the information on plagiarism. The repeated removal of details and portions of the documentation - especially in regard to quote tampering - is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 ( talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The blog article contains clear documentation of many cases of plagiarism not discussed elsewhere, and quote tampering within the plagiarized text. All of these instances of plagiarism and quote tampering link to the sources (the relevant Posner article on the Daily Beast and the source which was plagiarized from). I’m actually the individual who discovered Posner’s serial plagiarism and provided the information to Jack Shafer (resulting in Jack’s articles). The material discussed on the blog is the information which, once forwarded to the editors at Daily Beast, resulted in Posner’s resignation. Since all the sources are linked in the blog article, there is little that can be argued with (in the way of solid documentation). And, incidentally, I’m not a conspiracy buff, and was blissfully unaware of Posner until a week ago. I find plagiarism (and lack of integrity in journalism) offensive, and thus began pursuing it. I also think it’s questionable that you previously edited the discussion page to remove this edit warring section. The point of a discussion page is exactly to resolve disputes to avoid repeated reversions in the primary article. I’m willing to work with you on a consensus product, with professional language, but removal of plagiarism documentation and details is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The following constitutes a large portion of the Gerald Posner biography (i.e. the initial segment of the Gerald Posner Wikipedia entry):
"John Martin of ABC News says ‘Gerald Posner is one of the most resourceful investigators I have encountered in thirty years of journalism.’ Garry Wills calls Posner ‘a superb investigative reporter,’ while the Los Angeles Times dubs him ‘a classic-style investigative journalist.’ ‘His work is painstakingly honest journalism’ concluded the Washington Post. The New York Times lauded his ‘exhaustive research techniques’ and The Boston Globe determined Posner is ‘an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research.’ ‘A resourceful investigator and skillful writer,’ says The Dallas Morning News."
One or two quotes might not be problematic. But this certainly has the feel of an advertisement. It’s disproportionate in length and especially problematic since it now appears that, in reality, he is neither “painstakingly honest” nor “meticulous” (having plagiarized, falsified quotes in the plagiarized text, etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
There have been a lot of questions recently about how much of Posner's writing is his own (versus plagiarized). One thing we can be sure about is that he did write most of his own Wikipedia biography section (other than the recently added paragraph about plagiarism). Most of the biography is an exact (word for word) match to the advertisement on his website. See: http://www.posner.com/author%20-%20The%20Posner%20File.htm Yet Wikipedia administrators seem content to let Posner's self-written puffery remain, while content elsewhere in this entry has been rewritten to largely minimize information on journalistic transgressions. Let's hear it for Wikipedia professionalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.55.204 ( talk) 03:01, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Critical information regarding the Posner Plagiarism case appears to be missing. Article appears to be biased and lacking in recent data. Information on plagiarism appears to be minimized and deserves its own subheading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.58.205 ( talk) 22:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Much of the Posner biography section appears to have been written by Posner himself. It’s an exact duplicate of the advertisement at his website. There have been complaints that the laudatory quotations were not sourced, so I decided to check them, at least in the case of the newspapers Posner cites. Also, in general, a newspaper as a whole doesn’t make such statements (as Posner’s language would imply) – rather, a particular book reviewer or reporter, writing in the newspaper, is making the statement.
>"A resourceful investigator and skillful writer," says The Dallas Morning News.
An exhaustive text search of the Dallas Morning News archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner.
> The Boston Globe determined Posner is "an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research."
An exhaustive text search of the Boston Globe archives failed to find such a quote referring to Posner.
> "His work is painstakingly honest journalism" concluded the Washington Post.
An exhaustive text search of the Washington Post archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner. However, I was able to find the phrase “painstakingly honest journalism" referring to Posner in an article written by Joe Sharkey in New York Times. The remainder of the quote differed however.
The remaining two quotes (one from the Los Angeles Times and one from the New York Times) were both verified as correct. The language of the biography section has been modified accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.55.204 ( talk) 02:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
[from trishawiki until my signoff] There seems to be some issue with some of the laudatory references to Posner's bio. Upon further research, here is some additional material and specific citations, covering several of his books in particular, and work in general.
“If we can finally accept Oswald as the lone killer, it's not only because of Posner's thorough and hard-edge investigation, it's also because of our own changing times. We are forced to accept chaos as easily as conspiracy now.” Ellen Goodman syndicated column, Boston Globe, November 18, 1993.
Anthony Lewis, NYTBR, April 26, 1998: “Gerald Posner, who tackled the Kennedy conspiracy myths in ‘Case Closed,’ now takes on the claims advanced by James Earl Ray and his supporters. With ‘Killing the Dream,’ he has written a superb book: a model of investigation, meticulous in its discovery and presentation of evidence, unbiased in its exploration of every claim. And it is a wonderfully readable book, as gripping as a first-class detective story.”
Kansas City Star, November 13, 2003: “Also notable from 1993 was a terrific three-hour documentary, ‘Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?’ produced by the PBS series ‘Frontline.’ It will reair at 9 p.m. ET Thursday on KCPT, Channel 19. Using Gerald Posner as an expert witness -- he had just written Case Closed, a meticulous brief for the lone-gunman view – ‘Frontline’ picked apart all of the most plausible alternative scenarios for the killings of both Kennedy and Oswald.”
The Weekend Australian, January 25, 2003: “To connoisseurs of the beat, the new doco-cum-concert film Standing in the Shadows of Motown (opening on January 30) is to the Motown sound and history what The Buena Vista Social Club was to Cuban jazz. If you need more, however, Gerald Posner, no musician but a meticulous researcher, has just published Motown: Money, Power, Sex and Music (Random House) which gives the lowdown on Motown founder Berry Gordy Jr…”
Publishers Weekly, December 16, 2002: “As in his previous works, Posner is at his strongest demonstrating his meticulous research skills, most notably scouring court archives in Detroit to reveal details of how Motown founder Berry Gordy Jr. often unfairly and unscrupulously dealt with artists whom he helped discover, like Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye, the Temptations, Smokey Robinson and Stevie Wonder.”
Florida Today, April 24, 2000: “The industry standard belongs perhaps to lawyer-turned- investigative reporter Gerald Posner, whose meticulous Case Closed in 1993 was an immersion into assassination minutiae.”
Chicago Tribune, April 20, 1998: “Posner, a former Wall Street lawyer, demolishes myths through a meticulous re-examination of the facts. Then he reads the books and magazine articles and newspaper stories that have led conspiracy theorists to their leaping conclusions.”
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, April 14, 1998: “Author Posner comes into this book with wonderful credentials. In 1993, he wrote ‘Case Closed,’ which concluded after meticulous research that conspiracy theories aside, Lee Harvey Oswald had acted alone in putting a bullet through the brain of John F. Kennedy.”
The Commercial Appeal (Memphis, TN), April 3, 1998: “Posner gives us well-researched journalism, thoroughly sourced with on-the-record interviews and meticulous footnoting.” The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), September 29, 1996: “Posner is the author of 1994's masterful ‘Case Closed,’ which made as meticulous and readable an argument as can be made for Lee Harvey Oswald's sole responsibility in the murder of John F. Kennedy.”
Desert News (Salt Lake City), September 1, 1996: “In a meticulous manner, Posner traces Perot's life and motivations from his birth in Texarkana to his formation of a new political party this year.”
New York Daily News, August 14, 1996: “It is a fascinating, lively, instructive and at times knee-slappingly funny story, told with the limited cooperation of Perot, who obviously realized early on that Posner, a meticulous and serious researcher, was not putting together a puff piece.”
The Toronto Sun, February 22, 1994: “In fact, I think all conspiracy theories are blown out of the water by Posner's meticulous research and careful conclusions.”
Sydney Morning Herald, November 27, 1993: “PAINSTAKING re-examination of the greatest murder mystery of modern times: who killed JFK? It's no mystery concludes lawyer/journalist [Posner]: lone assassin Lee Harvey Oswald did it. And who would argue after reading this meticulous analysis, complete with graphics, illustrations and detailed appendices?”
Chicago Tribune, October 3, 1993: “Half of ‘Case Closed’ is a meticulous examination of Oswald's entire life, culminating in an almost day-by-day chronicle of his movements in the last two months before the assassination.”
Newsday (New York), September 16, 1993: “Posner employs meticulous research to reach what counts as a novel conclusion: That, for all its flaws, the Warren Commission was right. Oswald killed JFK without help from anyone.”
USA Today, February 4, 2003: “Posner is thorough. In matter-of-fact style, he recounts the stories behind Shop Around, Please Mr. Postman and other songs. He details the lovemaking, drug-taking and artistic rivalries that characterized Motown as it moved from Hitsville to a Detroit office building and finally to Los Angeles, where Gordy lost sight of the music and began making movies.”
The Herald (Rock Hill, SC), January 16, 2005: “A thorough investigation into the King assassination that concludes James Earl Ray acted alone.”
Sunday News (Lancaster, PA), May 10, 1998: “Posner continues his hole punching with a thorough examination of Ray's varying stories, which have changed over the years.”
The Atlanta Journal and Constitution, March 29, 1998: “A thorough look at Ray, Gerald Posner is the author of a new book on the King assassination, ‘Killing the Dream.’ Posner is a well-credentialed lawyer; among his previous books is ‘Case Closed,’ which most serious journalists and historians regard as far and away the best volume on the assassination of JFK.”
The Herald (Glasgow), March 13, 1998: “This American author's detailed research and thorough analysis expose the myths surrounding Kennedy's and Oswald's deaths for what they are - rumours and conjecture accepted as established facts, and established facts being ignored because they don't fit the desired scenario of a conspiracy.”
The Toronto Sun, December 1, 1996: “Posner's book re-examining the JFK assassination was, according to most critics, the definitive word on that much-discussed tragedy (he found no evidence of a conspiracy). He brings the same balanced, thorough and common-sense approach to this Perot profile.”
Agence France Presse, November 21, 1993: “In the flurry of publications marking the 30th anniversary of Kennedy's death, one book, ‘Case Closed’ by journalist Gerald Posner, was singled out for its thorough and thoughtful treatment of the subject.”
Buffalo News (New York), October 24, 1993: “[P]osner has done an impressively thorough job with the ashes of a 30-year-old case.” The Miami Herald, October 10, 1993: “Richard Reeves' President Kennedy and Gerald Posner's Case Closed are rigorously thorough and finely crafted contributions to a confusing historical record.”
Newsday (New York), September 16, 1993: “Its appeal lies both in its thorough, apparently even-handed research, and the fact that, following the publication in recent years of a near-constant stream of conspiracy books, ‘Case Closed’ may be the first by a respected author to argue persuasively for the Oswald-alone theory, a scenario most Americans dismissed years ago.”
The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec), September 11, 1993: “The author is also thorough in his coverage of Oswald's Marine service and subsequent defection to the Soviet Union (information about which is scarce).”
Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, FL), September 18, 1993: “Posner's exact and thorough destruction of the conspiracy theorists gives you Oswald the man, not Oswald the brilliant secret agent or Oswald the hapless patsy.”
The Toronto Star, November 20, 1993: “Case Closed is not by any means a crackpot work but a thorough job with some pretensions to scholarship.”
(Mixed) Fresno Bee (California), August 11, 1996: “The big question, though, is whether Perot would be a good president. After reading this thorough look at Perot from birth to political death, that question remains unanswered.”
(Negative) Palm Beach Post (Florida), May 3, 1998: “Posner's care in detailing every fact and assertion is so thorough, his book is at times slow going.”
Jeffrey Toobin, Chicago Tribune Review of Case Closed, September 12, 1993: “Unlike many of the 2,000 other books that have been written about the Kennedy assassination, Posner's ‘Case Closed’ is a resolutely sane piece of work. More importantly, ‘Case Closed’ is utterly convincing in its thesis, which seems, in light of all that has transpired over the past 30 years, almost revolutionary. His thesis is this: Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy by himself…. I started ‘Case Closed’ as a skeptic - and slightly put off by the presumptuous title. To my mind historical truth is always a slippery thing. The chances of knowing for sure what happened in any event - much less one as murky as the Kennedy assassination - seem remote. But this fascinating and important book won me over. Case closed, indeed.”
Gene Lyons, Entertainment Weekly, September 24, 1993: “As thorough and incisive a job of reporting and critical thinking as you will ever read, Case Closed does more than buttress the much beleaguered Warren Commission's conclusion ….More than that, Posner's book is written in a penetrating, lucid style that makes it a joy to read. Even the footnotes, often briskly debunking one or another fanciful or imaginary scenario put forth by the conspiracy theorists, rarely fail to enthrall…. Case Closed is a work of genuine patriotism and a monument to the astringent power of reason. ‘A’”
US News & World Report, August 23, 1993: “He [Posner] sweeps away decades of polemical smoke, layer by layer, and builds an unshakable case against JFK's killer.”
NY Times, June 26, 1998: “A recent book on the subject, ‘Killing the Dream,’ by Gerald Posner, which some reviewers said was a definitive study of the assassination, found no credible evidence to support Mr. Ray's contention that he was manipulated into a conspiracy, or that the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the Central Intelligence Agency covered up evidence in Dr. King's murder.”
NYTBR (in the review of Norman Mailer’s Oswald’s Tale), April 30, 1995. “Gerald Posner's ‘Case Closed’ (1993), which argues with an awesome command of evidentiary detail that Oswald did it, period.”
NPR, April 6, 1998: “Gerald Posner's book is a detailed and even exhaustive examination of James Earl Ray and the assassination.”
Dallas Morning News, June 22, 1997: “More than three decades after the Kennedy assassination, there still are Americans who wonder. Gerald Posner's masterful study of that case should have laid those doubts to rest for thinking readers…”
“You've debunked the Kennedy assassination theories. You've debunked the Martin Luther King assassination theories in hardback. You've done this in a magazine article [debunking Princess Di murder theories]. I'm a big fan of yours, obviously, Gerald…. you've done it again.” – Chris Matthews, August 31, 1999
“The famed investigative reporter” – Larry King, April 25, 1999. [[[User:Trishawiki|Trishawiki]] ( talk) 15:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)trishawiki] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trishawiki ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC) --- Trishawiki ( talk) 15:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, "What we need is a work of painstakingly honest journalism, a la ‘Case Closed,’ Gerald Posner's landmark re-examination of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.” Joe Sharkey, "Jeffrey MacDonald's New Jury," NY Times, March 19, 1995.
“After Case Closed, everybody thinks Oswald did it” – Time, January 3, 1994, under “Winners and Losers,” p. 18. Under “Losers,” it says: “JFK CONSPIRACY BUFFS – With the publication of Case Closed, suddenly everyone agrees: Oswald did act alone.” (All caps in original)
May 3, 1998, Craig Flournoy review of Killing the Dream: “Gerald Posner conclusively demonstrates that Mr. Ray shot and killed Dr. King….Mr. Posner, who has written a critically acclaimed book on the assassination of John F. Kennedy….meticulously demolishes the various alibis and conspiracy theories put forth by Mr. Ray, his lawyers and supporters.”-- Trishawiki ( talk) 15:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Based on the history of this article, on August 22, 2007 Gerald Posner added the following sentence: "After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it" - Newsweek.
The sentence has been retained until the present (the recent form of the sentence is: "After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it," wrote Newsweek.).
An exhaustive search of Newsweek archives (in addition to searches of a full text archive of Newsweek via EBSCOhost, and a search using LexisNexis) failed to find any such quote (or even a similar quote). Such a quote was also not located in searches of databases of all U.S. newspapers.
Consequently, the sentence has been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 ( talk) 09:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Given the recently published revelations (in Slate, Miami New Times, etc.) of Posner’s plagiarism and quote falsification/fabrication, it appears necessary to insert material respecting long-standing concerns about potential interview fabrications (i.e. people who Posner claimed to have interviewed who denied ever having been interviewed by him).
The added material is fully sourced, except for Posner’s rebuttal claims (his assertion regarding tapes and a phone bill). It appears that no sources that meet Wikipedia citation standards exist for Posner’s rebuttal claims, but I’ve added his rebuttal arguments to maintain fairness to Posner.
Full disclosure: I personally believe that Oswald did it, but believe that there are legitimate concerns about Posner’s reporting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I’m performing an undo on edits by user Miamiskull.
These edits violate Wikipedia conflict of interest policy. Miamiskull has openly posted his identity, and is the subject of this article.
From Wikipedia conflict of interest policy: “COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups.”
“the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted.”
Miamiskull has removed reliably sourced critical information on alteration, fabrication, and misattribution of quotes. Specifically, the text mentioning this has been removed from the article, and the accompanying references have been removed as well. In addition, one of the references removed provides the majority of cases of plagiarism reported to date. Moreover, as the plagiarism scandal has grown, a series of increasingly implausible excuses were given, in an attempt to make the plagiarism appear inadvertent. This information has also been removed.
I’m thus performing a simple undo of the Miamiskull edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I left a note at User talk:Miamiskull about COI. I suggested he raise any concerns at this talk page or at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Maurreen ( talk) 18:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
More regarding any of my changes so there is complete transparency as to why I added any recent information to the article itself, as opposed to just making comments or providing info here in talk.
(1) The last two sentences of the first paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" deal with the book being optioned for a miniseries. Before, it had it in the present tense, as if the book was still to be made into a movie. But the correction is to note that David Wolper had optioned it, and then expressed in his memoir that the failure to develop Case Closed into a film was one of his two career disappointments. Considering it is David Wolper, who successfully 'produced' an Olympics, and shows such as Roots, it seems a relevant piece of information. And it is more accurate than what had been there. The citation is to the electronic page of Wolper's book where he makes the statement about Case Closed.
The first sentence of the third paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" - The lead off to this paragraph had been what is now the second sentence. I believe that it is fair to balance the "widespread criticism from assassination researchers" with "widespread critical acclaim from the mainstream media." The citation I provided in support of this includes 18 source citations. I am sure I could get more, but think this is adequate. Also, I very specifically chose the words "mainstream media."
(3) In "External Links" I added in Posner's Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and Linkedin account. People who are researching him can also find him or info on him at those web locations. I added in, as well, links to articles collected by him as collected by The Huffington Post and the Daily Beast. And finally, I deleted the Gerald Posner, Slate.com Weathervane - it is a current 2012 page, Houston chronicle.com = item not found, The Right Perspective podcast blog = doesn't exist.
I will continue to try and add to citations needed in the biographical section, as I have added a couple. But it takes time to find them, so it might be a tad slow.
I hope this helpful in providing the transparent information so anyone who comes to this talk section will agree that my edits are those with which a neutral editor would agree with.-- Trishawiki ( talk) 14:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
There are new charges in the Miami New Times, at http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-05-20/news/posner-plagiarizes-again/. What is the state of play on using the Miami New Times as a source? I don't like the tone of their reporting. I looked through the guidelines on living persons, and I'm worried that their work may not fit the guidelines. What do people think? If people are associated with or against Posner I'd like them to say so in stating their opinions.
Posner also hired Mark Lane as his lawyer, which is strange as Lane is a Kennedy conspiracy theorist. The new charges are grave, and then ther is the Lane stuff, which was also reported in the New York Post. He is thratening to sue the New Times. The NT article also this article in Wikipedia. This is all inflammatory stuff, and we need to handle this appropriately, applying all rules fairly. CheeseStakeholder ( talk) 17:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
07:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Eurytemora ( talk)
Posner was also found to have altered, fabricated, and misattributed quotes [3]
This information should have been removed sooner. Tim Elfrink describes "what look like" and "apparent instances" of plagiarism. If an editor wishes to restore the source, please provide attribution for quotations. Wikispan ( talk) 18:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I acknowledge that I haven't been keeping up with this. The last time I read any of the talk or article was early on 21 May.
But my view is that anyone with direct involvement with Gerald Posner or anything covered by the article should not edit the article. Avoiding even an appearance of such a conflict of interest is consistent with editorial ethics.
I encourage anyone to use this talk page or relevant noticeboards, etc. Maurreen ( talk) 05:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Here’s a suggested alternative for the sentence in dispute: The Miami New Times also found that Posner “seems to add, subtract, or misattribute quotes” and displayed a series of such “apparently altered or misattributed quotes” [5] [6]. For all the examples shown, Posner cited a source article, where an examination of the source showed that the quote given in Posner’s writing was either substantially altered (e.g. words added), never said by the subject, misattributed, or used out of context.
Almost all the language in this alternative comes directly from the referenced articles (this should satisfy even the most stringent “attribution” requirement). The first sentence consists mainly of quotes from the referenced articles, and the second is largely composed of the precise words used in the articles (which refer to “altered quotes”, words “added”, quotes that the person “never says”, quotes that are “misattributed”, and quotes that are “used out of context”). It’s slightly longer and less elegant than the original version, but that’s unavoidable given the request for “attribution” and the need to accurately mirror the information in the referenced articles. Eurytemora ( talk) 21:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
The text that Gerald Posner added to this article on August 31, 2007 [9] appears to contain some major inaccuracies. I was just looking at a sentence Posner added to the Why America Slept section:
“Prince Ahmed, two other Saudi princes named by Posner, and the chief of the Pakistani Air Force, all died within days of each other, either from a blood clot after a simple operation, a car wreck involving only one vehicle, dehydration in the desert, or a sabotaged helicopter explosion.”
This text has remained in the article since his addition (a couple spelling errors have been corrected, but no wording modifications have been made). Posner is essentially trying to claim that all these men were actually assassinated in a conspiracy.
Posner states that the four men “all died within days of each other”. Prince Ahmed ( Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud) died on July 22, 2002. The “chief of the Pakistani Air Force” that Posner is referring to is Mushaf Ali Mir, who died on February 20, 2003. So these men did not die “within days of each other” (i.e. Posner’s description here is a frank inaccuracy). Also, Mushaf Ali Mir died in a crash of a Fokker F27. This is a turboprop airplane, not a helicopter. The plane hit a mountain (3000 foot elevation) obscured by dense clouds (as confirmed by numerous local witnesses in news accounts), near Kohat, Pakistan. An inquiry by the Pakistani Air Force found the crash to have been caused by a combination of pilot error (beginning descent too soon, given the low cloudbank) and poor visibility (both fog and dense clouds are mentioned). Sabotage was specifically excluded as a cause. Here’s the Aviation Safety Network description [10]. So calling it a “sabotaged helicopter explosion” is a frank inaccuracy. Also, the operation that Prince Ahmed underwent was apparently surgery for diverticulitis – this surgery is known to be associated with high mortality and morbidity (i.e. severe complications). E.g. journal articles cite numbers as high as 16.7% mortality and 71% morbidity in surgery for acute diverticulitis (numbers are better, though still rather high in elective surgical cases). So calling it “a simple operation” is rather misleading.
Hopefully, at some point, this section of the article will be fully researched and corrected. Eurytemora ( talk) 07:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
This edit is pretty funny.— Chowbok ☠ 00:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the following:
Per WP:WEIGHT, a single letter to the editor is not enough to support the contention that the veracity of his testimony is in question. Per WP:SYNTH, it is not acceptable to cherry-pick then string together primary source material in the above manner. This is a BLP, so secondary source coverage is required for these types of claims. Location ( talk) 00:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
i don't see any mention of "bio-assassins" in the posner wikipedia article, apart from the name of the book. is it because "bio-assassins" is too hot to handle, too provocative even to mention? the book is about biological terrorism. there have been rumors that "bio-assassins" includes information about actual events and that gerald posner had acquired classified information from the cia which he "leaked" in this book. in light of the anthrax scare and other events, are there people who want any knowledge of this book swept under the rug? (the plot of "bio-assassins" makes the cia look very, very bad. if it IS based on actual events, knowledge of some scandalous doings has been kept from the american public.)````
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This article needs a huge amount of clean-up. Posner is an author who has written ten books. But the majority of this article is about some of the content from a single chapter in one of his books. I don't want to turn this article into a debate about conspiracy theories, but we need some perspective. MK2 22:32, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and snipped out the paragraph. I'm reposting it here for, well, whatever you want. Gamaliel 19:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Posner theorized that when Oswald fired his first shot he fired it into the foliage of a closeby tree, only 62' away from Oswald. Posner theorized that first bullet was deflected by a tree branch then traveled some 425', hit the south upper curbstone of Main Street, and caused the right facial cheek wound on James Tague (Tague has always stated he was struck concurrent with the second or third shot --or second or third volley of shots-- Tague remembered hearing). Tague has stated that Posner has never interviewed him, while Posner responds that he has tapes of himself interviewing Tague for his book and cites his phone bill as evidence of conversations with Tague and others. Posner theorized that Oswald fired a second shot less than one second after Kennedy became visible again from behind the tree at Zapruder film frame 207 to 208. Posner theorized that this second bullet was the " single bullet theory" bullet that passed through both Kennedy and Governor John Connally at Zapruder film frame 223, causing seven wounds (counting each entrance and exit wound seperately) while breaking two major body bones, yet the bullet was later found at Parkland Hospital in nearly intact condition, having lost only a documented 1.5% of its average weight. Posner theorized that the third and final 265.3' shot was fired by Oswald and killed Kennedy when it struck him in the right rear of his head between Zapruder frame 312 and 313.
With the "offending" passage removed, shouldn't the article be considered neutral now? Roygbiv666
Someone who cares about this more than I do might want to add this in: The erased CIA tapes that are at the center of a current scandal may have contained footage of the interrogation detailed in Posner's 2003 book. [1] And while you're at it, please clean up that section a bit.-- Rockero ( talk) 07:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Where did that photo come from, and how relevent is it? Posner is over 50 now. He looks like a punk rocker in the pic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.87.221 ( talk) 15:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
CIA agent E. Howard Hunt's confession to being part of the JFK conspiracy has now been made public. Likewise, the evidence, from the NORAD standing down to the obviously controlled demolition of WTC 7, makes it obvious to the un-brainwashed that 9/11 was staged by the US government. Whether this guy just freelances or actually is contracted to cover-up the crimes of the deep state is somewhat irrelevant here, either way this guy is a professional liar and a traitor to the US constitution.
Why does Wikipedia have to lie too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.232.124 ( talk) 20:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
There are no links provided to the quotes--which are attributed to the NY Times, Gary Wills and the LA Times--praising Posner's "investigative journalism" in the bio section. Can these quotes be verified?---
This page was recently vandalized below the References area. (some silliness about being in the Nazi party and killing Michael Jackson. Perhaps it should be locked.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.22.158 ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It has been vandalized twice now but it's been cleaned up pretty fast both times -- Trishawiki ( talk) 14:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Critical references and information are repeatedly being removed to minimize the information on plagiarism. The repeated removal of details and portions of the documentation - especially in regard to quote tampering - is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 ( talk) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The blog article contains clear documentation of many cases of plagiarism not discussed elsewhere, and quote tampering within the plagiarized text. All of these instances of plagiarism and quote tampering link to the sources (the relevant Posner article on the Daily Beast and the source which was plagiarized from). I’m actually the individual who discovered Posner’s serial plagiarism and provided the information to Jack Shafer (resulting in Jack’s articles). The material discussed on the blog is the information which, once forwarded to the editors at Daily Beast, resulted in Posner’s resignation. Since all the sources are linked in the blog article, there is little that can be argued with (in the way of solid documentation). And, incidentally, I’m not a conspiracy buff, and was blissfully unaware of Posner until a week ago. I find plagiarism (and lack of integrity in journalism) offensive, and thus began pursuing it. I also think it’s questionable that you previously edited the discussion page to remove this edit warring section. The point of a discussion page is exactly to resolve disputes to avoid repeated reversions in the primary article. I’m willing to work with you on a consensus product, with professional language, but removal of plagiarism documentation and details is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The following constitutes a large portion of the Gerald Posner biography (i.e. the initial segment of the Gerald Posner Wikipedia entry):
"John Martin of ABC News says ‘Gerald Posner is one of the most resourceful investigators I have encountered in thirty years of journalism.’ Garry Wills calls Posner ‘a superb investigative reporter,’ while the Los Angeles Times dubs him ‘a classic-style investigative journalist.’ ‘His work is painstakingly honest journalism’ concluded the Washington Post. The New York Times lauded his ‘exhaustive research techniques’ and The Boston Globe determined Posner is ‘an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research.’ ‘A resourceful investigator and skillful writer,’ says The Dallas Morning News."
One or two quotes might not be problematic. But this certainly has the feel of an advertisement. It’s disproportionate in length and especially problematic since it now appears that, in reality, he is neither “painstakingly honest” nor “meticulous” (having plagiarized, falsified quotes in the plagiarized text, etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
There have been a lot of questions recently about how much of Posner's writing is his own (versus plagiarized). One thing we can be sure about is that he did write most of his own Wikipedia biography section (other than the recently added paragraph about plagiarism). Most of the biography is an exact (word for word) match to the advertisement on his website. See: http://www.posner.com/author%20-%20The%20Posner%20File.htm Yet Wikipedia administrators seem content to let Posner's self-written puffery remain, while content elsewhere in this entry has been rewritten to largely minimize information on journalistic transgressions. Let's hear it for Wikipedia professionalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.55.204 ( talk) 03:01, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Critical information regarding the Posner Plagiarism case appears to be missing. Article appears to be biased and lacking in recent data. Information on plagiarism appears to be minimized and deserves its own subheading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.58.205 ( talk) 22:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Much of the Posner biography section appears to have been written by Posner himself. It’s an exact duplicate of the advertisement at his website. There have been complaints that the laudatory quotations were not sourced, so I decided to check them, at least in the case of the newspapers Posner cites. Also, in general, a newspaper as a whole doesn’t make such statements (as Posner’s language would imply) – rather, a particular book reviewer or reporter, writing in the newspaper, is making the statement.
>"A resourceful investigator and skillful writer," says The Dallas Morning News.
An exhaustive text search of the Dallas Morning News archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner.
> The Boston Globe determined Posner is "an investigative journalist whose work is marked by his thorough and meticulous research."
An exhaustive text search of the Boston Globe archives failed to find such a quote referring to Posner.
> "His work is painstakingly honest journalism" concluded the Washington Post.
An exhaustive text search of the Washington Post archives failed to find any such quote referring to Posner. However, I was able to find the phrase “painstakingly honest journalism" referring to Posner in an article written by Joe Sharkey in New York Times. The remainder of the quote differed however.
The remaining two quotes (one from the Los Angeles Times and one from the New York Times) were both verified as correct. The language of the biography section has been modified accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.55.204 ( talk) 02:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
[from trishawiki until my signoff] There seems to be some issue with some of the laudatory references to Posner's bio. Upon further research, here is some additional material and specific citations, covering several of his books in particular, and work in general.
“If we can finally accept Oswald as the lone killer, it's not only because of Posner's thorough and hard-edge investigation, it's also because of our own changing times. We are forced to accept chaos as easily as conspiracy now.” Ellen Goodman syndicated column, Boston Globe, November 18, 1993.
Anthony Lewis, NYTBR, April 26, 1998: “Gerald Posner, who tackled the Kennedy conspiracy myths in ‘Case Closed,’ now takes on the claims advanced by James Earl Ray and his supporters. With ‘Killing the Dream,’ he has written a superb book: a model of investigation, meticulous in its discovery and presentation of evidence, unbiased in its exploration of every claim. And it is a wonderfully readable book, as gripping as a first-class detective story.”
Kansas City Star, November 13, 2003: “Also notable from 1993 was a terrific three-hour documentary, ‘Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?’ produced by the PBS series ‘Frontline.’ It will reair at 9 p.m. ET Thursday on KCPT, Channel 19. Using Gerald Posner as an expert witness -- he had just written Case Closed, a meticulous brief for the lone-gunman view – ‘Frontline’ picked apart all of the most plausible alternative scenarios for the killings of both Kennedy and Oswald.”
The Weekend Australian, January 25, 2003: “To connoisseurs of the beat, the new doco-cum-concert film Standing in the Shadows of Motown (opening on January 30) is to the Motown sound and history what The Buena Vista Social Club was to Cuban jazz. If you need more, however, Gerald Posner, no musician but a meticulous researcher, has just published Motown: Money, Power, Sex and Music (Random House) which gives the lowdown on Motown founder Berry Gordy Jr…”
Publishers Weekly, December 16, 2002: “As in his previous works, Posner is at his strongest demonstrating his meticulous research skills, most notably scouring court archives in Detroit to reveal details of how Motown founder Berry Gordy Jr. often unfairly and unscrupulously dealt with artists whom he helped discover, like Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye, the Temptations, Smokey Robinson and Stevie Wonder.”
Florida Today, April 24, 2000: “The industry standard belongs perhaps to lawyer-turned- investigative reporter Gerald Posner, whose meticulous Case Closed in 1993 was an immersion into assassination minutiae.”
Chicago Tribune, April 20, 1998: “Posner, a former Wall Street lawyer, demolishes myths through a meticulous re-examination of the facts. Then he reads the books and magazine articles and newspaper stories that have led conspiracy theorists to their leaping conclusions.”
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, April 14, 1998: “Author Posner comes into this book with wonderful credentials. In 1993, he wrote ‘Case Closed,’ which concluded after meticulous research that conspiracy theories aside, Lee Harvey Oswald had acted alone in putting a bullet through the brain of John F. Kennedy.”
The Commercial Appeal (Memphis, TN), April 3, 1998: “Posner gives us well-researched journalism, thoroughly sourced with on-the-record interviews and meticulous footnoting.” The Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ), September 29, 1996: “Posner is the author of 1994's masterful ‘Case Closed,’ which made as meticulous and readable an argument as can be made for Lee Harvey Oswald's sole responsibility in the murder of John F. Kennedy.”
Desert News (Salt Lake City), September 1, 1996: “In a meticulous manner, Posner traces Perot's life and motivations from his birth in Texarkana to his formation of a new political party this year.”
New York Daily News, August 14, 1996: “It is a fascinating, lively, instructive and at times knee-slappingly funny story, told with the limited cooperation of Perot, who obviously realized early on that Posner, a meticulous and serious researcher, was not putting together a puff piece.”
The Toronto Sun, February 22, 1994: “In fact, I think all conspiracy theories are blown out of the water by Posner's meticulous research and careful conclusions.”
Sydney Morning Herald, November 27, 1993: “PAINSTAKING re-examination of the greatest murder mystery of modern times: who killed JFK? It's no mystery concludes lawyer/journalist [Posner]: lone assassin Lee Harvey Oswald did it. And who would argue after reading this meticulous analysis, complete with graphics, illustrations and detailed appendices?”
Chicago Tribune, October 3, 1993: “Half of ‘Case Closed’ is a meticulous examination of Oswald's entire life, culminating in an almost day-by-day chronicle of his movements in the last two months before the assassination.”
Newsday (New York), September 16, 1993: “Posner employs meticulous research to reach what counts as a novel conclusion: That, for all its flaws, the Warren Commission was right. Oswald killed JFK without help from anyone.”
USA Today, February 4, 2003: “Posner is thorough. In matter-of-fact style, he recounts the stories behind Shop Around, Please Mr. Postman and other songs. He details the lovemaking, drug-taking and artistic rivalries that characterized Motown as it moved from Hitsville to a Detroit office building and finally to Los Angeles, where Gordy lost sight of the music and began making movies.”
The Herald (Rock Hill, SC), January 16, 2005: “A thorough investigation into the King assassination that concludes James Earl Ray acted alone.”
Sunday News (Lancaster, PA), May 10, 1998: “Posner continues his hole punching with a thorough examination of Ray's varying stories, which have changed over the years.”
The Atlanta Journal and Constitution, March 29, 1998: “A thorough look at Ray, Gerald Posner is the author of a new book on the King assassination, ‘Killing the Dream.’ Posner is a well-credentialed lawyer; among his previous books is ‘Case Closed,’ which most serious journalists and historians regard as far and away the best volume on the assassination of JFK.”
The Herald (Glasgow), March 13, 1998: “This American author's detailed research and thorough analysis expose the myths surrounding Kennedy's and Oswald's deaths for what they are - rumours and conjecture accepted as established facts, and established facts being ignored because they don't fit the desired scenario of a conspiracy.”
The Toronto Sun, December 1, 1996: “Posner's book re-examining the JFK assassination was, according to most critics, the definitive word on that much-discussed tragedy (he found no evidence of a conspiracy). He brings the same balanced, thorough and common-sense approach to this Perot profile.”
Agence France Presse, November 21, 1993: “In the flurry of publications marking the 30th anniversary of Kennedy's death, one book, ‘Case Closed’ by journalist Gerald Posner, was singled out for its thorough and thoughtful treatment of the subject.”
Buffalo News (New York), October 24, 1993: “[P]osner has done an impressively thorough job with the ashes of a 30-year-old case.” The Miami Herald, October 10, 1993: “Richard Reeves' President Kennedy and Gerald Posner's Case Closed are rigorously thorough and finely crafted contributions to a confusing historical record.”
Newsday (New York), September 16, 1993: “Its appeal lies both in its thorough, apparently even-handed research, and the fact that, following the publication in recent years of a near-constant stream of conspiracy books, ‘Case Closed’ may be the first by a respected author to argue persuasively for the Oswald-alone theory, a scenario most Americans dismissed years ago.”
The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec), September 11, 1993: “The author is also thorough in his coverage of Oswald's Marine service and subsequent defection to the Soviet Union (information about which is scarce).”
Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, FL), September 18, 1993: “Posner's exact and thorough destruction of the conspiracy theorists gives you Oswald the man, not Oswald the brilliant secret agent or Oswald the hapless patsy.”
The Toronto Star, November 20, 1993: “Case Closed is not by any means a crackpot work but a thorough job with some pretensions to scholarship.”
(Mixed) Fresno Bee (California), August 11, 1996: “The big question, though, is whether Perot would be a good president. After reading this thorough look at Perot from birth to political death, that question remains unanswered.”
(Negative) Palm Beach Post (Florida), May 3, 1998: “Posner's care in detailing every fact and assertion is so thorough, his book is at times slow going.”
Jeffrey Toobin, Chicago Tribune Review of Case Closed, September 12, 1993: “Unlike many of the 2,000 other books that have been written about the Kennedy assassination, Posner's ‘Case Closed’ is a resolutely sane piece of work. More importantly, ‘Case Closed’ is utterly convincing in its thesis, which seems, in light of all that has transpired over the past 30 years, almost revolutionary. His thesis is this: Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy by himself…. I started ‘Case Closed’ as a skeptic - and slightly put off by the presumptuous title. To my mind historical truth is always a slippery thing. The chances of knowing for sure what happened in any event - much less one as murky as the Kennedy assassination - seem remote. But this fascinating and important book won me over. Case closed, indeed.”
Gene Lyons, Entertainment Weekly, September 24, 1993: “As thorough and incisive a job of reporting and critical thinking as you will ever read, Case Closed does more than buttress the much beleaguered Warren Commission's conclusion ….More than that, Posner's book is written in a penetrating, lucid style that makes it a joy to read. Even the footnotes, often briskly debunking one or another fanciful or imaginary scenario put forth by the conspiracy theorists, rarely fail to enthrall…. Case Closed is a work of genuine patriotism and a monument to the astringent power of reason. ‘A’”
US News & World Report, August 23, 1993: “He [Posner] sweeps away decades of polemical smoke, layer by layer, and builds an unshakable case against JFK's killer.”
NY Times, June 26, 1998: “A recent book on the subject, ‘Killing the Dream,’ by Gerald Posner, which some reviewers said was a definitive study of the assassination, found no credible evidence to support Mr. Ray's contention that he was manipulated into a conspiracy, or that the Federal Bureau of Investigation or the Central Intelligence Agency covered up evidence in Dr. King's murder.”
NYTBR (in the review of Norman Mailer’s Oswald’s Tale), April 30, 1995. “Gerald Posner's ‘Case Closed’ (1993), which argues with an awesome command of evidentiary detail that Oswald did it, period.”
NPR, April 6, 1998: “Gerald Posner's book is a detailed and even exhaustive examination of James Earl Ray and the assassination.”
Dallas Morning News, June 22, 1997: “More than three decades after the Kennedy assassination, there still are Americans who wonder. Gerald Posner's masterful study of that case should have laid those doubts to rest for thinking readers…”
“You've debunked the Kennedy assassination theories. You've debunked the Martin Luther King assassination theories in hardback. You've done this in a magazine article [debunking Princess Di murder theories]. I'm a big fan of yours, obviously, Gerald…. you've done it again.” – Chris Matthews, August 31, 1999
“The famed investigative reporter” – Larry King, April 25, 1999. [[[User:Trishawiki|Trishawiki]] ( talk) 15:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)trishawiki] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trishawiki ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC) --- Trishawiki ( talk) 15:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, "What we need is a work of painstakingly honest journalism, a la ‘Case Closed,’ Gerald Posner's landmark re-examination of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.” Joe Sharkey, "Jeffrey MacDonald's New Jury," NY Times, March 19, 1995.
“After Case Closed, everybody thinks Oswald did it” – Time, January 3, 1994, under “Winners and Losers,” p. 18. Under “Losers,” it says: “JFK CONSPIRACY BUFFS – With the publication of Case Closed, suddenly everyone agrees: Oswald did act alone.” (All caps in original)
May 3, 1998, Craig Flournoy review of Killing the Dream: “Gerald Posner conclusively demonstrates that Mr. Ray shot and killed Dr. King….Mr. Posner, who has written a critically acclaimed book on the assassination of John F. Kennedy….meticulously demolishes the various alibis and conspiracy theories put forth by Mr. Ray, his lawyers and supporters.”-- Trishawiki ( talk) 15:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Based on the history of this article, on August 22, 2007 Gerald Posner added the following sentence: "After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it" - Newsweek.
The sentence has been retained until the present (the recent form of the sentence is: "After Case Closed, everyone thinks Oswald did it," wrote Newsweek.).
An exhaustive search of Newsweek archives (in addition to searches of a full text archive of Newsweek via EBSCOhost, and a search using LexisNexis) failed to find any such quote (or even a similar quote). Such a quote was also not located in searches of databases of all U.S. newspapers.
Consequently, the sentence has been removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.39.244 ( talk) 09:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Given the recently published revelations (in Slate, Miami New Times, etc.) of Posner’s plagiarism and quote falsification/fabrication, it appears necessary to insert material respecting long-standing concerns about potential interview fabrications (i.e. people who Posner claimed to have interviewed who denied ever having been interviewed by him).
The added material is fully sourced, except for Posner’s rebuttal claims (his assertion regarding tapes and a phone bill). It appears that no sources that meet Wikipedia citation standards exist for Posner’s rebuttal claims, but I’ve added his rebuttal arguments to maintain fairness to Posner.
Full disclosure: I personally believe that Oswald did it, but believe that there are legitimate concerns about Posner’s reporting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I’m performing an undo on edits by user Miamiskull.
These edits violate Wikipedia conflict of interest policy. Miamiskull has openly posted his identity, and is the subject of this article.
From Wikipedia conflict of interest policy: “COI editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups.”
“the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted.”
Miamiskull has removed reliably sourced critical information on alteration, fabrication, and misattribution of quotes. Specifically, the text mentioning this has been removed from the article, and the accompanying references have been removed as well. In addition, one of the references removed provides the majority of cases of plagiarism reported to date. Moreover, as the plagiarism scandal has grown, a series of increasingly implausible excuses were given, in an attempt to make the plagiarism appear inadvertent. This information has also been removed.
I’m thus performing a simple undo of the Miamiskull edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eurytemora ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I left a note at User talk:Miamiskull about COI. I suggested he raise any concerns at this talk page or at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Maurreen ( talk) 18:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
More regarding any of my changes so there is complete transparency as to why I added any recent information to the article itself, as opposed to just making comments or providing info here in talk.
(1) The last two sentences of the first paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" deal with the book being optioned for a miniseries. Before, it had it in the present tense, as if the book was still to be made into a movie. But the correction is to note that David Wolper had optioned it, and then expressed in his memoir that the failure to develop Case Closed into a film was one of his two career disappointments. Considering it is David Wolper, who successfully 'produced' an Olympics, and shows such as Roots, it seems a relevant piece of information. And it is more accurate than what had been there. The citation is to the electronic page of Wolper's book where he makes the statement about Case Closed.
The first sentence of the third paragraph under "Writings: Case Closed" - The lead off to this paragraph had been what is now the second sentence. I believe that it is fair to balance the "widespread criticism from assassination researchers" with "widespread critical acclaim from the mainstream media." The citation I provided in support of this includes 18 source citations. I am sure I could get more, but think this is adequate. Also, I very specifically chose the words "mainstream media."
(3) In "External Links" I added in Posner's Facebook, Twitter, Google+ and Linkedin account. People who are researching him can also find him or info on him at those web locations. I added in, as well, links to articles collected by him as collected by The Huffington Post and the Daily Beast. And finally, I deleted the Gerald Posner, Slate.com Weathervane - it is a current 2012 page, Houston chronicle.com = item not found, The Right Perspective podcast blog = doesn't exist.
I will continue to try and add to citations needed in the biographical section, as I have added a couple. But it takes time to find them, so it might be a tad slow.
I hope this helpful in providing the transparent information so anyone who comes to this talk section will agree that my edits are those with which a neutral editor would agree with.-- Trishawiki ( talk) 14:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
There are new charges in the Miami New Times, at http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-05-20/news/posner-plagiarizes-again/. What is the state of play on using the Miami New Times as a source? I don't like the tone of their reporting. I looked through the guidelines on living persons, and I'm worried that their work may not fit the guidelines. What do people think? If people are associated with or against Posner I'd like them to say so in stating their opinions.
Posner also hired Mark Lane as his lawyer, which is strange as Lane is a Kennedy conspiracy theorist. The new charges are grave, and then ther is the Lane stuff, which was also reported in the New York Post. He is thratening to sue the New Times. The NT article also this article in Wikipedia. This is all inflammatory stuff, and we need to handle this appropriately, applying all rules fairly. CheeseStakeholder ( talk) 17:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
07:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC) Eurytemora ( talk)
Posner was also found to have altered, fabricated, and misattributed quotes [3]
This information should have been removed sooner. Tim Elfrink describes "what look like" and "apparent instances" of plagiarism. If an editor wishes to restore the source, please provide attribution for quotations. Wikispan ( talk) 18:09, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I acknowledge that I haven't been keeping up with this. The last time I read any of the talk or article was early on 21 May.
But my view is that anyone with direct involvement with Gerald Posner or anything covered by the article should not edit the article. Avoiding even an appearance of such a conflict of interest is consistent with editorial ethics.
I encourage anyone to use this talk page or relevant noticeboards, etc. Maurreen ( talk) 05:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Here’s a suggested alternative for the sentence in dispute: The Miami New Times also found that Posner “seems to add, subtract, or misattribute quotes” and displayed a series of such “apparently altered or misattributed quotes” [5] [6]. For all the examples shown, Posner cited a source article, where an examination of the source showed that the quote given in Posner’s writing was either substantially altered (e.g. words added), never said by the subject, misattributed, or used out of context.
Almost all the language in this alternative comes directly from the referenced articles (this should satisfy even the most stringent “attribution” requirement). The first sentence consists mainly of quotes from the referenced articles, and the second is largely composed of the precise words used in the articles (which refer to “altered quotes”, words “added”, quotes that the person “never says”, quotes that are “misattributed”, and quotes that are “used out of context”). It’s slightly longer and less elegant than the original version, but that’s unavoidable given the request for “attribution” and the need to accurately mirror the information in the referenced articles. Eurytemora ( talk) 21:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
The text that Gerald Posner added to this article on August 31, 2007 [9] appears to contain some major inaccuracies. I was just looking at a sentence Posner added to the Why America Slept section:
“Prince Ahmed, two other Saudi princes named by Posner, and the chief of the Pakistani Air Force, all died within days of each other, either from a blood clot after a simple operation, a car wreck involving only one vehicle, dehydration in the desert, or a sabotaged helicopter explosion.”
This text has remained in the article since his addition (a couple spelling errors have been corrected, but no wording modifications have been made). Posner is essentially trying to claim that all these men were actually assassinated in a conspiracy.
Posner states that the four men “all died within days of each other”. Prince Ahmed ( Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud) died on July 22, 2002. The “chief of the Pakistani Air Force” that Posner is referring to is Mushaf Ali Mir, who died on February 20, 2003. So these men did not die “within days of each other” (i.e. Posner’s description here is a frank inaccuracy). Also, Mushaf Ali Mir died in a crash of a Fokker F27. This is a turboprop airplane, not a helicopter. The plane hit a mountain (3000 foot elevation) obscured by dense clouds (as confirmed by numerous local witnesses in news accounts), near Kohat, Pakistan. An inquiry by the Pakistani Air Force found the crash to have been caused by a combination of pilot error (beginning descent too soon, given the low cloudbank) and poor visibility (both fog and dense clouds are mentioned). Sabotage was specifically excluded as a cause. Here’s the Aviation Safety Network description [10]. So calling it a “sabotaged helicopter explosion” is a frank inaccuracy. Also, the operation that Prince Ahmed underwent was apparently surgery for diverticulitis – this surgery is known to be associated with high mortality and morbidity (i.e. severe complications). E.g. journal articles cite numbers as high as 16.7% mortality and 71% morbidity in surgery for acute diverticulitis (numbers are better, though still rather high in elective surgical cases). So calling it “a simple operation” is rather misleading.
Hopefully, at some point, this section of the article will be fully researched and corrected. Eurytemora ( talk) 07:57, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
This edit is pretty funny.— Chowbok ☠ 00:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the following:
Per WP:WEIGHT, a single letter to the editor is not enough to support the contention that the veracity of his testimony is in question. Per WP:SYNTH, it is not acceptable to cherry-pick then string together primary source material in the above manner. This is a BLP, so secondary source coverage is required for these types of claims. Location ( talk) 00:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
i don't see any mention of "bio-assassins" in the posner wikipedia article, apart from the name of the book. is it because "bio-assassins" is too hot to handle, too provocative even to mention? the book is about biological terrorism. there have been rumors that "bio-assassins" includes information about actual events and that gerald posner had acquired classified information from the cia which he "leaked" in this book. in light of the anthrax scare and other events, are there people who want any knowledge of this book swept under the rug? (the plot of "bio-assassins" makes the cia look very, very bad. if it IS based on actual events, knowledge of some scandalous doings has been kept from the american public.)````
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