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External links:
http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/press/el-salvador-schindler-s-list.918.htm
http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/holocaust_hero.html
http://www.zionnet.net/62164/494.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsgmpolgen.html
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: https://archive.is/20120908082605/www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/saviors/diplomats/list/george-mandel-mantello.856.htm. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
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Religion or ethnicity should not generally be mentioned in the opening sentence, and then only in context where it cannot be confused with nationality. See MOS:ETHNICITY. In the case of Jewish people, there are daily occurrences in which editors tag people as Jewish in concert or ahead of their nationality, usually with malign intent. I realize that it is not the case here, but there's a reason why the MoS requires this. The lead sentence doesn't even mention his nationality, which is a problem., especially if "Jewish" is so prominent. Mantello's Jewsih heitage is important, but let's find a way to mention in in accordance with the MoS, and explain his nationality likewise. I would suggest in this case a construction be found to mention nationality first, and then mention Mantello's heritage. Hyphenated constructions like "Jewish-Hungarian" are strongly deprecated. Acroterion (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I might half-understand that an edit or two ago somebody removed "ethnicity" (Jewish) from the Infobox, because the template apparently didn't support it and it didn't show on the page anyway ( User_talk:108.56.139.120, is that right?). Although the constructive way of going about things is always to keep the relevant information, and adapt the formal aspects to the substance: find the rigt template or go around code glitches by improvising. The user doesn't care what & how the editor does it, they want to get the relevant info. But I certainly don't understand how Acroterion found it necessary to remove the ethnicity (Jewish) also from the lead. His citizenship was a game of staying afloat & alive. He's one of the best examples for proving how the fixation with citizenship as a defining attribute can sometimes be utterly useless and the almost random result of a game of crazy circumstances. Judaism for most Jews isn't just a religion; for some it's not even connected to religion (see for instance Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger). Mend[e]l was Jewish first, and anything else came second. In his time most European Jews who did attempt to leave any Jewish identity behind them, were forced by the non-Jews to slip back into the shoes they thought they'd left behind; the more so those who never tried to change their identity. Talking citizenship: He was born in the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary; most likely became a Romanian citizen only once the Romanian government was pressed by the European Powers into giving citizenship to the Jews it "inherited" when Romania took over Transylvania & the Banat, Bukovina & Bessarabia after WWI - so much so that he became the envoy of the Romanian king, Carol II, to fascist Hungary's leader, Admiral Horthy; he got fake Salvadorian citizenship papers to escape deportation by the Nazis and I'm not sure he ever went through a proper, legal naturalisation process with the Salvadoran authorities; lived in Switzerland, probably on his Romanian passport, but maybe on another one; and moved to Italy, where I think he got naturalised, but maybe not. And in all this, the one thing that didn't change (other than being an educated, mid-class Central European man of the world), was his ethno-religious identity: he was, was seen by others, and acted as a Jew. If anyone has a doubt, check out where he was buried. And at Har Hamenuchot Cemetery there are only religious Jewish burials - no secular ceremonies or headstones, no cremation, none of that; only with rabbi and the whole show. So yes, Jewish he was, I'm sure his parents gave him a Jewish first name under which he was married and buried, and his surname was Mend[e]l until his benefactor and saviour, Coronel Castellanos, Latinised it to Mantello. The German WP editors, who've done their homework in denazification and post-WWII liberal education, have titled their article George Mandel-Mantello; because that was his name, I'm not sure if and when a proper name change ever took place beyond the FAKE papers issued by Castellanos. Maybe later, in Italy. The Hebrew article also uses this double name, and justifiably so, this time not out of a narrow-minded parochial attitude. And not just that, in Italy György/George became known as Giorgio. And I'm sure he couldn't care less. Altogether, the Hebrew article deals with his entire life, including his family and what he did after the war. A person, not just an actor in a historical drama. The same anonymous editor, 108.56.139.120, took the effort to also remove the grandfather from the infobox, w/o putting him back in inside the article. It might not be a pattern, aka bias/agenda, but if "Jewish" is erased twice and the rabbi grandfather is kicked out too, it starts looking like one.
We're not supposed to go out on a limb guessing how smb. living in the 21st century, or even at some point in the 20th, self-identified. In his case he voted with his feet, so to say. I'm certainly NOT in the business of pigeonholing people on ethno-religious grounds, but when somebody's ethno-religious identity is so pivotal in their acts and existence, removing it becomes an insult. If not to anything else, then to one's healthy judgment and IQ. Arminden ( talk) 18:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
KIENGIR, szervusz. Look, we're not discussing here the history & rightful ownership of Erdély. The topic is a specific man, and the target is the "normal" Wiki user. Who probably doesn't know much about any of this. Mandl György studied at the High School of Commerce in Budapest and was Carol's envoy to Miklós bácsi. The point that sets him apart from thousands of other Jews who were born Hungarian citizens and studied in Budapest [other than the rare fact that he was still alive at the end of 1944, against all honest efforts by Horthy (to a point), Sztójay and Szálasi (wholeheartedly)], is that he contributed in major ways to saving Hungarian Jews from Auschwitz. When he did this, what nationality did he have? Hungarian? Possibly, but he would have totally avoided to make mention, or use of it. Was he Salvadorian? Maybe, if Caballeros had made a point in legalising his naturalisation. Romanian? Same like the Hungarian one: useful for escaping to Switzerland, dangerous to make use of in Romania itself. The lead is not supposed to contain unessential info, nationality or ethnicity as such are not encouraged by the Manual of style (and, for a change, here I do support it, for reasons of substance, not for formal considerations). Like most Jews during the Holocaust, a citizenship/passport meant nothing by itself, all that mattered was a ticket out of the crematory. That's why I don't see the probable "Állampolgárság: magyar" entry in his birth certificate as relevant; the fact that he was from a province that ended up as much as a leaf in the wind as himself during those decades is much more relevant and evocative of what his life has meant. I don't see much informational gain for the Wiki user in knowing what citizenship he was born with, other than maybe the fact that he ended up being involved in saving Hungarian Jews, rather than Polish, Romanian, Austrian or such from southwest Abkhazia. If you want to "fight the good fight" for the Holy Crown, find your way to the Transylvania page, but here I deeply believe that you've ended up in the wrong forest. "Hier falsche Baustelle" 'wrong building site here', as a joke goes in Germany. Szép napot, uram. Arminden ( talk) 23:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
External links:
http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/press/el-salvador-schindler-s-list.918.htm
http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/holocaust_hero.html
http://www.zionnet.net/62164/494.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsgmpolgen.html
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: https://archive.is/20120908082605/www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/saviors/diplomats/list/george-mandel-mantello.856.htm. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:47, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Religion or ethnicity should not generally be mentioned in the opening sentence, and then only in context where it cannot be confused with nationality. See MOS:ETHNICITY. In the case of Jewish people, there are daily occurrences in which editors tag people as Jewish in concert or ahead of their nationality, usually with malign intent. I realize that it is not the case here, but there's a reason why the MoS requires this. The lead sentence doesn't even mention his nationality, which is a problem., especially if "Jewish" is so prominent. Mantello's Jewsih heitage is important, but let's find a way to mention in in accordance with the MoS, and explain his nationality likewise. I would suggest in this case a construction be found to mention nationality first, and then mention Mantello's heritage. Hyphenated constructions like "Jewish-Hungarian" are strongly deprecated. Acroterion (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I might half-understand that an edit or two ago somebody removed "ethnicity" (Jewish) from the Infobox, because the template apparently didn't support it and it didn't show on the page anyway ( User_talk:108.56.139.120, is that right?). Although the constructive way of going about things is always to keep the relevant information, and adapt the formal aspects to the substance: find the rigt template or go around code glitches by improvising. The user doesn't care what & how the editor does it, they want to get the relevant info. But I certainly don't understand how Acroterion found it necessary to remove the ethnicity (Jewish) also from the lead. His citizenship was a game of staying afloat & alive. He's one of the best examples for proving how the fixation with citizenship as a defining attribute can sometimes be utterly useless and the almost random result of a game of crazy circumstances. Judaism for most Jews isn't just a religion; for some it's not even connected to religion (see for instance Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger). Mend[e]l was Jewish first, and anything else came second. In his time most European Jews who did attempt to leave any Jewish identity behind them, were forced by the non-Jews to slip back into the shoes they thought they'd left behind; the more so those who never tried to change their identity. Talking citizenship: He was born in the Hungarian part of Austria-Hungary; most likely became a Romanian citizen only once the Romanian government was pressed by the European Powers into giving citizenship to the Jews it "inherited" when Romania took over Transylvania & the Banat, Bukovina & Bessarabia after WWI - so much so that he became the envoy of the Romanian king, Carol II, to fascist Hungary's leader, Admiral Horthy; he got fake Salvadorian citizenship papers to escape deportation by the Nazis and I'm not sure he ever went through a proper, legal naturalisation process with the Salvadoran authorities; lived in Switzerland, probably on his Romanian passport, but maybe on another one; and moved to Italy, where I think he got naturalised, but maybe not. And in all this, the one thing that didn't change (other than being an educated, mid-class Central European man of the world), was his ethno-religious identity: he was, was seen by others, and acted as a Jew. If anyone has a doubt, check out where he was buried. And at Har Hamenuchot Cemetery there are only religious Jewish burials - no secular ceremonies or headstones, no cremation, none of that; only with rabbi and the whole show. So yes, Jewish he was, I'm sure his parents gave him a Jewish first name under which he was married and buried, and his surname was Mend[e]l until his benefactor and saviour, Coronel Castellanos, Latinised it to Mantello. The German WP editors, who've done their homework in denazification and post-WWII liberal education, have titled their article George Mandel-Mantello; because that was his name, I'm not sure if and when a proper name change ever took place beyond the FAKE papers issued by Castellanos. Maybe later, in Italy. The Hebrew article also uses this double name, and justifiably so, this time not out of a narrow-minded parochial attitude. And not just that, in Italy György/George became known as Giorgio. And I'm sure he couldn't care less. Altogether, the Hebrew article deals with his entire life, including his family and what he did after the war. A person, not just an actor in a historical drama. The same anonymous editor, 108.56.139.120, took the effort to also remove the grandfather from the infobox, w/o putting him back in inside the article. It might not be a pattern, aka bias/agenda, but if "Jewish" is erased twice and the rabbi grandfather is kicked out too, it starts looking like one.
We're not supposed to go out on a limb guessing how smb. living in the 21st century, or even at some point in the 20th, self-identified. In his case he voted with his feet, so to say. I'm certainly NOT in the business of pigeonholing people on ethno-religious grounds, but when somebody's ethno-religious identity is so pivotal in their acts and existence, removing it becomes an insult. If not to anything else, then to one's healthy judgment and IQ. Arminden ( talk) 18:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
KIENGIR, szervusz. Look, we're not discussing here the history & rightful ownership of Erdély. The topic is a specific man, and the target is the "normal" Wiki user. Who probably doesn't know much about any of this. Mandl György studied at the High School of Commerce in Budapest and was Carol's envoy to Miklós bácsi. The point that sets him apart from thousands of other Jews who were born Hungarian citizens and studied in Budapest [other than the rare fact that he was still alive at the end of 1944, against all honest efforts by Horthy (to a point), Sztójay and Szálasi (wholeheartedly)], is that he contributed in major ways to saving Hungarian Jews from Auschwitz. When he did this, what nationality did he have? Hungarian? Possibly, but he would have totally avoided to make mention, or use of it. Was he Salvadorian? Maybe, if Caballeros had made a point in legalising his naturalisation. Romanian? Same like the Hungarian one: useful for escaping to Switzerland, dangerous to make use of in Romania itself. The lead is not supposed to contain unessential info, nationality or ethnicity as such are not encouraged by the Manual of style (and, for a change, here I do support it, for reasons of substance, not for formal considerations). Like most Jews during the Holocaust, a citizenship/passport meant nothing by itself, all that mattered was a ticket out of the crematory. That's why I don't see the probable "Állampolgárság: magyar" entry in his birth certificate as relevant; the fact that he was from a province that ended up as much as a leaf in the wind as himself during those decades is much more relevant and evocative of what his life has meant. I don't see much informational gain for the Wiki user in knowing what citizenship he was born with, other than maybe the fact that he ended up being involved in saving Hungarian Jews, rather than Polish, Romanian, Austrian or such from southwest Abkhazia. If you want to "fight the good fight" for the Holy Crown, find your way to the Transylvania page, but here I deeply believe that you've ended up in the wrong forest. "Hier falsche Baustelle" 'wrong building site here', as a joke goes in Germany. Szép napot, uram. Arminden ( talk) 23:19, 22 December 2020 (UTC)