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The sentence "Equally, he loathed Nazi propaganda and its perversion of the education system, as well as the curtailing of religious freedoms." is still problematic.
"perversion" could be seen as POV and for my taste it is still a bit undescriptive. What is needed is a word that denotes the total, all-encompassing nature of the system of education that the Nazis had in mind and tried to implement - a word that doesn't say "totalitarian" as this offendes some sensibilities. Str1977 (smile back) 10:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The most accurate word is fascist. Fascism is all encompassing in exactly that way, but we cant use that word as it offends some sensiblities (but its accurate). Nazism, would suffice just as well. And, preversion is accurate for what they did with the education system. It doesnt imply any kind of partial intrusion. It perverted the whole system. The definition of the word: "1. To cause to turn away from what is right, proper, or good; corrupt. 2. To bring to a bad or worse condition; debase. 3. To put to a wrong or improper use; misuse." In short, to corrupt, debase, and misuse. This is what the fascists did with education--they debased it into pure propaganda; they fired any teachers who would not go along with it. Ofcourse the study of History and Biology were most affected, which was a perversion of science, replacing with psuedo-science. Bsides the racism, pro-imperialism they taught, the sexism even included a different curriculum for girls to train them to be domestic housewives, etc. Perversion of education it was. If you want to add force to this to include the ideal of "total," you could say the perversion was both rampant and thorough. Giovanni33 11:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Manipulation instead of Perversion? Vulgar connotations aside, Perversion turns a thing from its natural state into an unnatural state. Perhaps that's arguable in this case, but then all education has a tendency to that end, and the article should outline the special circumstances which render Nazi influence on the state education system so remarkably perverse eg. jingoistic national histories would have been common at that time, but were unscientific notions of race on the German syllabus? Also, I don't think the article should refer to the subject by his first name.-- shtove 18:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni, when you say, above, "Perversion of education it was", and claim that it is accurate, I wonder if you're confusing truth with neutrality. Basically, Wikipedia does not take sides. It doesn't call Hitler evil, even though he was. It's for the reader to decide whether the Nazi control of the education system was good or bad. Wikipedia, for example, doesn't say whether or not Michael Jackson molested children (except in brief periods following vandalism). It says he was accused of it, that he denied it, and that he was found not guilty. It doesn't say that Roy Whiting killed Sarah Payne, even though there isn't the slightest doubt that he did. It just says that he was convicted of her murder. No matter how much we may abhor the actions of the Nazis, as Wikipedians, we just report them accurately, in neutral language, and leave the reader to decide whether these actions were good or bad. AnnH ♫ 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me state some things:
Str1977 (smile back) 16:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, I'm happy with "total control", while we try to find something better. I may not be around much in the next few days. I thought I was sickening for something recently, and I'm quite sure now. :-( AnnH ♫ 18:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Gio, finally you admit the difference and clerly state your view. I am now wondering what you have read about Elser that makes you think this way? I have stated what I have read anc these books confirm my take, among these the essential works by Hoch and Grundmann. What I described as POV pushing is not POV pushing in the usual sense, but rather a spill over from Adolf Hitler and our debate about T. vs. F., which legitimate over there but meaningless here. Str1977 (smile back) 18:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
If I may intrude, and break it up a little. To Giovanni, contrived is better than bogus (which is very unscholarly). Lots of elections before Germany 1933-45, and even today are "bogus", but that's an opinion, not in the supposed purpose of Wikipedia, to be expressed as fact. Lots of executions have not been legal, some would argue all are illegal. This article has come a long way since its inception. At one time it was so blatently propagandistic, that I thought Klara Zetkin, wrote it. Call his death a killing, or a great tragedy in the continuum of human history, if you prefer. I really don't care. Please keep in mind Elser, killed eight innocent people, and I reiterate innocent people, and in any objective person's mind, would be considered a murderer and criminal. Typically when they are dispatched, the term killed is not usually the word of choice. All kinds of euphemisms are used, instead. I guess you don't like executed. If murdered or killed makes you feel better, go for it! I won't change it on you again. Dr. Dan 19:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
If I may give my take on this: Whether or not Elser was guilty in a judicial sense or not (and I guess he was, despite my admiration for his courage) - his killing was not an execution of a convict, as no trial had taken place. Hence "murdered" is actually accurate, even under the legal conditions of the Third Reich. Str1977 (smile back) 20:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to get the information of who was killed in the explosion? Do either of you know? Giovanni, Str1977, may be busy or tired after these long discussions with you, and therefore unable to answer me on his thoughts about Eugen Schauman. I realize that Schauman is a different issue, and if it becomes a worthwile topic, it can be discussed elsewhere. Morality, tyrannicide, terrorism, ect., were topics that Str1977 and I, touched upon sometime ago, in relation to Elser. Can you, G , give a brief opinion of Schauman? Dr. Dan 01:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a lesser opinion of Elser, than Str1977. I have explained why, but wish to expound on this a little more. I will await your imput, when you can return. Dr. Dan 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Niemoeller ever explicitly say that he suspected Elser was a member of the S.S.? It seems highly unlikely considering his political inclination and I can find no hard evidence for that assertion (as is stated in the article). Shirer, in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (pp. 865-867), characterizes Elser as being bribed by the S.S. while already incarcerated at Dachau. According to Shirer, Elser was allegedly approached by S.S. officials who promised to escort him across the border to Switzerland in exchange for building and planting the bomb in the Buergerbräukeller. After the blast he was speeded away to the frontier and left conveniently for other Gestapo agents to "discover" him as the culprit and coerced to implicate the British agents, Best and Stevens. While I wouldn't put such scurrilousness below Himmler's S.S. (e.g., the Gleiwitz incident), Schellenberg and Gisevius both believed it was a genuine attempt on Hitler's life and subsequent research by Anton Hoch bears this out. I would, however, be surprised if Niemoeller himself believed he was a member of the S.S. Does anyone have citations to back this up? If not, I'll remove the assertion from the article. Inoculatedcities 23:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You have to remember, Shirer wrote his book before a lot of evidence on the Nazi's was released by the Soviets or came t light by other means.
in the first sentence it says the assasination attempt failed because of faulty wiring but later on it says the bomb went off properly but Hitler had left earlier than expected. 98.196.78.26 ( talk) 03:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I had the same thought when reading this, how is the wiring at fault when Hitler changed his predicted routine?
128.231.88.6 (
talk)
21:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Understandably, German people celebrate this person as one of the few who actually had the guts to go and do something against the monster. But what is thought of him in Germany actually belongs not to his biography, but to one of the numerous articles dealing with Germany's past, or articles on how Germans deal with it. Therefore I removed the the text after "I wanted to prevent even greater bloodshed through my deed", because it mostly deals with how Germans deal with their shame, and not what Elser actually did. LMB ( talk) 10:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is there an image of the Dornier flying boat? I don't see where it is referenced in the article or what it has to do with the subject. Was the ferry mentioned in the article the flying boat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LienEmpire ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Would their names be relevant? The entry mentions their funeral and the "hyperbole" of Hess regarding their deaths, why not include their names? 66.162.249.170 ( talk) 01:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
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Using sources such as Gestapo interrogation reports without any secondary sources is very poor practice. They're scarcely likely to be reliable in their own right and we should never use a primary source in this way. - Sitush ( talk) 21:08, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
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I'd like a map with the location of the places mentioned: Heidenheim, Friedrichshafen, Konstanz, Bottighofen, Meersburg, Schnaitheim, Nuremberg. The article details his movements but without a map, it is hard to picture their relevance. -- Error ( talk) 23:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "Undue weight to Gusevius, Nebe's friend and apologist; pls see Arthur Nebe#Apologetics". -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 8, 2017 and November 8, 2019. |
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The sentence "Equally, he loathed Nazi propaganda and its perversion of the education system, as well as the curtailing of religious freedoms." is still problematic.
"perversion" could be seen as POV and for my taste it is still a bit undescriptive. What is needed is a word that denotes the total, all-encompassing nature of the system of education that the Nazis had in mind and tried to implement - a word that doesn't say "totalitarian" as this offendes some sensibilities. Str1977 (smile back) 10:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The most accurate word is fascist. Fascism is all encompassing in exactly that way, but we cant use that word as it offends some sensiblities (but its accurate). Nazism, would suffice just as well. And, preversion is accurate for what they did with the education system. It doesnt imply any kind of partial intrusion. It perverted the whole system. The definition of the word: "1. To cause to turn away from what is right, proper, or good; corrupt. 2. To bring to a bad or worse condition; debase. 3. To put to a wrong or improper use; misuse." In short, to corrupt, debase, and misuse. This is what the fascists did with education--they debased it into pure propaganda; they fired any teachers who would not go along with it. Ofcourse the study of History and Biology were most affected, which was a perversion of science, replacing with psuedo-science. Bsides the racism, pro-imperialism they taught, the sexism even included a different curriculum for girls to train them to be domestic housewives, etc. Perversion of education it was. If you want to add force to this to include the ideal of "total," you could say the perversion was both rampant and thorough. Giovanni33 11:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Manipulation instead of Perversion? Vulgar connotations aside, Perversion turns a thing from its natural state into an unnatural state. Perhaps that's arguable in this case, but then all education has a tendency to that end, and the article should outline the special circumstances which render Nazi influence on the state education system so remarkably perverse eg. jingoistic national histories would have been common at that time, but were unscientific notions of race on the German syllabus? Also, I don't think the article should refer to the subject by his first name.-- shtove 18:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni, when you say, above, "Perversion of education it was", and claim that it is accurate, I wonder if you're confusing truth with neutrality. Basically, Wikipedia does not take sides. It doesn't call Hitler evil, even though he was. It's for the reader to decide whether the Nazi control of the education system was good or bad. Wikipedia, for example, doesn't say whether or not Michael Jackson molested children (except in brief periods following vandalism). It says he was accused of it, that he denied it, and that he was found not guilty. It doesn't say that Roy Whiting killed Sarah Payne, even though there isn't the slightest doubt that he did. It just says that he was convicted of her murder. No matter how much we may abhor the actions of the Nazis, as Wikipedians, we just report them accurately, in neutral language, and leave the reader to decide whether these actions were good or bad. AnnH ♫ 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Let me state some things:
Str1977 (smile back) 16:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, I'm happy with "total control", while we try to find something better. I may not be around much in the next few days. I thought I was sickening for something recently, and I'm quite sure now. :-( AnnH ♫ 18:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Gio, finally you admit the difference and clerly state your view. I am now wondering what you have read about Elser that makes you think this way? I have stated what I have read anc these books confirm my take, among these the essential works by Hoch and Grundmann. What I described as POV pushing is not POV pushing in the usual sense, but rather a spill over from Adolf Hitler and our debate about T. vs. F., which legitimate over there but meaningless here. Str1977 (smile back) 18:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
If I may intrude, and break it up a little. To Giovanni, contrived is better than bogus (which is very unscholarly). Lots of elections before Germany 1933-45, and even today are "bogus", but that's an opinion, not in the supposed purpose of Wikipedia, to be expressed as fact. Lots of executions have not been legal, some would argue all are illegal. This article has come a long way since its inception. At one time it was so blatently propagandistic, that I thought Klara Zetkin, wrote it. Call his death a killing, or a great tragedy in the continuum of human history, if you prefer. I really don't care. Please keep in mind Elser, killed eight innocent people, and I reiterate innocent people, and in any objective person's mind, would be considered a murderer and criminal. Typically when they are dispatched, the term killed is not usually the word of choice. All kinds of euphemisms are used, instead. I guess you don't like executed. If murdered or killed makes you feel better, go for it! I won't change it on you again. Dr. Dan 19:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
If I may give my take on this: Whether or not Elser was guilty in a judicial sense or not (and I guess he was, despite my admiration for his courage) - his killing was not an execution of a convict, as no trial had taken place. Hence "murdered" is actually accurate, even under the legal conditions of the Third Reich. Str1977 (smile back) 20:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there any way to get the information of who was killed in the explosion? Do either of you know? Giovanni, Str1977, may be busy or tired after these long discussions with you, and therefore unable to answer me on his thoughts about Eugen Schauman. I realize that Schauman is a different issue, and if it becomes a worthwile topic, it can be discussed elsewhere. Morality, tyrannicide, terrorism, ect., were topics that Str1977 and I, touched upon sometime ago, in relation to Elser. Can you, G , give a brief opinion of Schauman? Dr. Dan 01:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a lesser opinion of Elser, than Str1977. I have explained why, but wish to expound on this a little more. I will await your imput, when you can return. Dr. Dan 04:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Did Niemoeller ever explicitly say that he suspected Elser was a member of the S.S.? It seems highly unlikely considering his political inclination and I can find no hard evidence for that assertion (as is stated in the article). Shirer, in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (pp. 865-867), characterizes Elser as being bribed by the S.S. while already incarcerated at Dachau. According to Shirer, Elser was allegedly approached by S.S. officials who promised to escort him across the border to Switzerland in exchange for building and planting the bomb in the Buergerbräukeller. After the blast he was speeded away to the frontier and left conveniently for other Gestapo agents to "discover" him as the culprit and coerced to implicate the British agents, Best and Stevens. While I wouldn't put such scurrilousness below Himmler's S.S. (e.g., the Gleiwitz incident), Schellenberg and Gisevius both believed it was a genuine attempt on Hitler's life and subsequent research by Anton Hoch bears this out. I would, however, be surprised if Niemoeller himself believed he was a member of the S.S. Does anyone have citations to back this up? If not, I'll remove the assertion from the article. Inoculatedcities 23:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
You have to remember, Shirer wrote his book before a lot of evidence on the Nazi's was released by the Soviets or came t light by other means.
in the first sentence it says the assasination attempt failed because of faulty wiring but later on it says the bomb went off properly but Hitler had left earlier than expected. 98.196.78.26 ( talk) 03:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I had the same thought when reading this, how is the wiring at fault when Hitler changed his predicted routine?
128.231.88.6 (
talk)
21:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Understandably, German people celebrate this person as one of the few who actually had the guts to go and do something against the monster. But what is thought of him in Germany actually belongs not to his biography, but to one of the numerous articles dealing with Germany's past, or articles on how Germans deal with it. Therefore I removed the the text after "I wanted to prevent even greater bloodshed through my deed", because it mostly deals with how Germans deal with their shame, and not what Elser actually did. LMB ( talk) 10:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Why is there an image of the Dornier flying boat? I don't see where it is referenced in the article or what it has to do with the subject. Was the ferry mentioned in the article the flying boat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LienEmpire ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Would their names be relevant? The entry mentions their funeral and the "hyperbole" of Hess regarding their deaths, why not include their names? 66.162.249.170 ( talk) 01:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Johann Georg Elser. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:28, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Using sources such as Gestapo interrogation reports without any secondary sources is very poor practice. They're scarcely likely to be reliable in their own right and we should never use a primary source in this way. - Sitush ( talk) 21:08, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Wikipedians in Germany may be able to help! |
I'd like a map with the location of the places mentioned: Heidenheim, Friedrichshafen, Konstanz, Bottighofen, Meersburg, Schnaitheim, Nuremberg. The article details his movements but without a map, it is hard to picture their relevance. -- Error ( talk) 23:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "Undue weight to Gusevius, Nebe's friend and apologist; pls see Arthur Nebe#Apologetics". -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)