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In his book Death by Government, Professor R.J. Rummel argues that "a full scale genocide was carried out in the Vendée in which possibly 117,000 inhabitants were systematically murdered." [dubious – discuss]
Ledenierhomme What is dubious about the statement? It is not a statement of fact or are you saying that the Rummel is dubious source? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are not disputing that the statement is verifiable and an accurate reflection of the text from which the the Wikipedia sentence is derived, you are disputing that R.J. Rummel is a reliable source. The text was added by C.J. Griffin lets ask that editor's opinion. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 18:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
C.J. Griffin, I encourage you to read all the sources cited in the section of this article, before drawing any conclusions as to which sources and statements are plausible or dubious. If your main resource is the internet, well, that's a shame, but at least read Gough's article (which is available online) and look into who some of the authorities mentioned are, before you quote a rather irrelevant book by Rummel, who is not an expert on this subject and who admits his information is second-hand. FYI, Ladouce (another Catholic Christian) is not the source of the 117,000 figure, Secher is - in which case the quote from Rummel is third-hand, and only demonstrates that he is not a reliable source for this subject (the War in the Vendee). Rummel may well be a respected academic, but his credentials are irrelevant as far as this article is concerned. Would you refer to Stephen Hawking in an article on the Yellow Turban Rebellion?
The article as it stands is already too long, and does a gross disservice to the subject matter as it in essence, places the words of polemicists (in most cases self-published in all but name) on an equal footing with established authorities who are specialists/experts on the subjects and have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
Unfortunately there seems to be no shortage of anti-French racists and bigots looking to point score over something as serious as genocide, and mob rule has ensured that Secher's polemics remain intact. - Ledenierhomme ( talk) 18:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Both of these countries' alleged genocides are under the heading of International Prosecution of Genocide rather than in the main list of alleged genocides. This seems wrong, but as a reader who came here to just to read the article, I would rather leave this edit up to someone more involved in this page. The heading "International Criminal Court" seems to have no text under it that relates to the heading. Has something gone missing? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing "a crime against humanity" in reference to that regime's persecution of its Christian minorities including Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks among others [1]. Contrary to popular conception the Armenians were by far not the only ethnic minority to suffer as the Ottoman Empire disolved and Assyrians and Greeks also suffered the genocidal depradations of the Young Turks while many researches consider these events to be part of the same policy of planned ethnoreligious purification of the Turkish state followed by the Young Turks [2].
.. This joint statement stated:
>=====Armenian Genocide=====
On 15 September 2005 a United States Congressional resolution on the Armenian Genocide "Calling upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes." found that:
The BBC reported that 16 December 2003, "The Swiss lower house of parliament has voted to describe the mass killings of Armenians during the last years of the Ottoman Empire as genocide. [...] Fifteen countries have now agreed to label the killings as genocide. They include France [in 2001], Argentina and Russia." [5] On 12 October 2006, French lawmakers "approved a bill making it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I amounted to genocide. Turkey quickly objected, with its Foreign Ministry saying that the decision "dealt a heavy blow" to Turkish-French relations and 'created great disappointment in our country.'" [6]
>=====Assyrian Genocide=====
The Assyrian Genocide (also known as Sayfo or Seyfo; Aramaic: ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ or ܣܝܦܐ, Turkish: Süryani Soykırımı) was committed against the Assyrian population of the Ottoman Empire near the end of the First World War by the Young Turks. [7] The Assyrian/Syriac population of northern Mesopotamia ( Tur Abdin, Hakkari, Van, Siirt region in modern-day southeastern Turkey and Urmia region in northwestern Iran) was forcibly relocated and massacred by Ottoman ( Turkish and Kurdish) forces between 1914 and 1920 under the regime of the Young Turks. [8] This genocide is considered to be a part of the same policy of extermination as the Armenian Genocide and Pontic Greek Genocide.The Assyro-Chaldean National Council stated in a December 4, 1922, memorandum that the total death toll is unknown, but it estimates that about 275,000 " Assyro-Chaldeans" died between 1914–1918. [9]
>=====Greek Genocide=====
Pontic Greek Genocide [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] is a term used to refer to the fate of the Pontic Greek population of the Ottoman Empire during and in the aftermath of World War I. It is used to refer to the determined persecutions, massacres, expulsions, and death marches of Pontian Greek populations in the historical region of Pontus, the southeastern Black Sea provinces of the Ottoman Empire, during the early 20th century by the Young Turk administration. G.W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office noted the massacres of Greeks in Pontus and elsewhere during the Turkish national movement, [17] [18] [13] which was organized against Greece's invasion of western Anatolia. [19]According to various sources the direct or indirect death toll of Greeks in Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000 men, women and children.
>=====Turkish Denial=====
The Republic of Turkey government disputes this interpretation of events and maintains that crucial documents supporting the genocide thesis are actually falsifications. [20] Seen as historical revisionism by many historians, the topic is virtually taboo in Turkey. Laws like Article 301 are used to bring charges against people like the Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk, who had stated that "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it". [21] However, Turkish authorities do acknowledge that the issue should be left to the historians [22] and in an open letter by Prime Minister Erdogan to the U.S. President dated 10 April 2005, extended an "invitation to your country to establish a joint group consisting of historians and other experts from our two countries to study the developments and events of 1915 not only in the archives of Ottoman Empire, Turkey and Armenia but also in the archives of all relevant third countries and to share their findings with the international public". [23] Furthermore, in spite of vehement resistance by nationalist groups, an academic conference was held on September 24, 2005 in Istanbul to discuss the early 20th century massacre of Armenians. [24]. In their book Negotiating the Sacred: Blasphemy and Sacrilege in a Multicultural Society, Elizabeth Burns Coleman, Kevin White present a list of reasons explaining Turkey's inability to admit the genocides commited by the Young Turks [25]
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There has been a considerable extension to this section and I think it raises some issues.
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 13:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
p.10
The one-sided association of the Armenian genocide with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire is a relatively new phenomenon.
Adam Jones, IAGS member, Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia http://www.genocidescholars.org/blog/?cat=16
Over the past decade, many in our community have become more aware that the Ottomans’ genocidal campaign between 1914 and 1923 — that is, between the outbreak of the First World War and the establishment of the Turkish Republic — targeted more than Armenians only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
3. Error corrected, thanks for pointing it out. Wrt to use of the term genocide this is also being debated in the article's talk page and there is a list of sources here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_quotes_on_the_Pontic_Greek_Genocide
If you are inclined I would appreciate your taking the time to comment as there is currently a lack of concensus and a third party taking a look could only help. There is also an open RfC. Thanks. Xenovatis ( talk) 14:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
During the Second Boer War, the internment of women and children in concentration camps led to massive loss of life - approximately 25% of the interned died, including 50% of the children. Past what threshold can incompetence and willful neglect be considered a policy of active genocide? Fazalmajid ( talk) 05:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, the Irish famine is mentioned but there is nothing about the identical famine in the Highlands at the same time. There's also nothing about the "pacification of the Highlands" in the second half of the 18th century, where British troops undertook ethnic cleansing in the Highlands of Scotland. Lianachan ( talk) 11:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
How come there is no mention of the estimated 15 million native Americans killed in America? [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] Ijanderson977 ( talk) 22:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2008, The U.S. state of Texas seized all the children belonging to one religious group, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints (FLDS). This fits the international definition of genocide, but is clearly not the equivalent of many other historic genocides. Is there a place for genocide "light"? 75.36.143.2 ( talk) 16:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
We should also include the Iriquois genocide of the Huron and Erie. Aaaronsmith ( talk) 04:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
in the part about Rwanda it says "The rate at which people were killed far exceeded any other genocide in history" i disagree the holocaust was far worse.... Lotharsrevenge
See Talk:Genocides_in_history/Archive_5#China -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that amounts to genocide," with four sources. What do the authors in the cited books actually say. as "amounts to genocide" does not mean genocide (which must have intent to commit a genocide of protected groups and the and actual destruction of the group). -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The link to Krstic links to the Serbian profession basketball player, it should link to Radislav Krstić. That's all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.216.131.122 ( talk) 19:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
From the history of the page:
What Makelo said was "In living memory, we have seen cruelty, massacres, and genocide, but we have never seen human beings hunted down as though they were game animals," ( DR Congo pygmies appeal to UN BBC 23 May 2003) It is not clear from that statement that he means local conditions (and not for example genocides in other parts of the world) and even if he did mean locally he was talking about genocide in the past not at the time he was quoted. To base a whole section on such a quote is to create a section giving undue weight weight to one indirect quote.
Even if he had been less circumspect and stated that a genocide was happening in 2003 to the pygmies, he is not a disinterested party and he has a valid political reason for suggesting genocide as it is one of the few reasons that the UN can use to involve its self in the internal affairs of a state (see Genocide#Security Council responsibility to protect). Do you have a source from a genocide scholar or a member of the security council or some other reliable source, who agrees with Sinafasi Makelo's analysis? If not then again this falls under WP:UNDUE -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe, you missed it in the rest of the article, where Makelo calls for the UN Security Council to recognize the cannibalism that his people are suffering as a genocide, it was not just that one quote. Could it now be considered due weight? Editingman ( talk) 20:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Quoting the article "Mr Makelo called on the forum to ask the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide." That does not say that he considers the current acts are a crime against humanity and an act of genocide, but that Mr Makelo asked the council to consider recognising cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide. Presumably if the forum had asked the security council to consider his proposal and said yes then he would argue that the situation in 2003 was a genocide. Were his requests put forward by the forum to the U.N. Security Council? Were they considered by the U.N. Security Council? If the answer is no in both cases then this would defiantly fall under WP:UNDUE. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article called "genocides in history" when it lists both genocides and alleged genocides? Seems to me a name change would be appropriate to more accurately reflect the content. Gatoclass ( talk) 08:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Article 6 – Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity
- 1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative measures as may be necessary to establish the following conduct as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:
- distributing or otherwise making available, through a computer system to the public, material which denies, grossly minimises, approves or justifies acts constituting genocide or crimes against humanity, as defined by international law and recognised as such by final and binding decisions of the International Military Tribunal, established by the London Agreement of 8 August 1945, or of any other international court established by relevant international instruments and whose jurisdiction is recognised by that Party. [10] (my emphasis)
The position of Her Majesty's Government, which the noble Baroness has asked us to review, is, I believe, well known and understood, but it certainly bears repeating here tonight. The British Government condemned the massacres of 1915-16 at the time and viewed the sufferings of the Armenian people then as a tragedy of historic proportions. The British Government of today, like their predecessors, in no way dissent in any form from that view. Nor do we seek to deny or to play down the extent of that tragedy. It was a gruesome, horrifying tragedy, as the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and other noble Lords have echoed tonight. I assure them that we are in no way dissenting from that analysis of what happened, but in the absence of unequivocal evidence to show that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at the time, British governments have not recognised the events of 1915 and 1916 as "genocide".
- Many other governments--and here I have to say to your Lordships, in spite of some of the statements that have been made tonight, the vast majority of other governments--are in a similar position. ...
Where's this? A terrorist group ( EOKA-B) was made the genocide to Turkish Cypriot in 1963 - 1974... And write to "Kanlı Noel" (Bloody Christmas) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.183.203.82 ( talk) 12:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I am quite suprised that Leopold II's rule of the Congo as a Belgian colony is not on here. I am sadly not knowledgeable enough to add a section on it straightaway, but shall try to find some resources to make a start. Is there any reason why it has not been included thus far? Epa101 ( talk) 12:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just added this:
The Guardian reported in July 2002 that, after initial outrage by Belgian historians over King Leopold's Ghost, the state-funded Museum of the Belgian Congo would finance an investigation into Hochschild's allegations. The investigatory panel, likely to be headed by Professor Jean-Luc Vellut, was scheduled to report its findings in 2004 (Andrew Osborn Belgium exhumes its colonial demons The Guardian July 13, 2002). An exhibition by the Museum of the Belgian Congo, called "The Memory of Congo" (February 4, 2005 - October 9, 2005), claimed to tell the "truth" of what happened in Belgium's colony. Critics of the museum include Adam Hochschild, who wrote an article for the New York Review of Books extensively documenting what he found to be distortions and evasions in the special 2005 exhibition (Adam Hochschild In the Heart of Darkness, New York Review of Books, 26 October 2005).
to the article King Leopold's Ghost. But the Adam Hochschild includes in his article a paragraph that starts:
The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.
So it seems this is not a section for this article just yet. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Has any-one any good sources on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II as a Genocide in history? This source for example states that both de Zayas and Pohl argue that it was Genocide under the 1951 Genocide convention while Bell-Fialkoss seems to disagree. Anyone know of any other scholars/sources which take a position or mention the debate?-- Stor stark7 Speak 16:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Inclusion Criteria
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While there are countless opinions on what has been defined as a historical genocide, the following criteria have been applied to incidents for inclusion in the Genocides in history list; all of the criteria listed below must be fulfilled by an incident for it to be included in the article:
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In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 01:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi. This deserves a mention in a new section, just like the Nazi Genocide in WWII, death toll about 8 - 30+ million. Thanks. ~ A H 1( T C U) 00:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Does the outlawing en masse of the Clan Gregor in Scotland in 1603 count as genocide? See the act of the Scottish Parliament of 1617 quoted in the article. PatGallacher ( talk) 19:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the genocide of people of Chinese descent in vietnam and indonesia? 81.155.102.122 ( talk) 02:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080320205224.htm
Is very interesting because it shows how the populations under the Spanish empire have survived to this day in the majority, mixed or otherwise. Of course the populations of Latin America suffered their share, like all popualtions that were stripped of their lands and civilizations, but the Angl Saxon model has been sadly much more horrible. The question is simple. Where are these native populations in North America and what per centage of the present population do they represent? Because they happen to be the majority in Latin America.
Population genetics is showing that the genocide committted in North America, the US and Canada, must have been of horrif dimentions. Populations genetics is showinf that virtually everiwhere in the world the native popualtions contin ue to represent the majority of the population, in Latin America or elsewherek, with different degrees of admixture, with the notable exception of some countries, namely the US, Cana or Australia.
The US and Canada extend over a territory of more than 20 million square kilometeres, twice the size of China, and today, it can be assured, the population that comes from the Native American peoples has virtually died out. The scale aand degree of this of this genocide North of the Border of Mexico has been systematically ignored or downplayed, without doubt due to the American and Anglo Saxon control of recednt history and the information channnels, another step in the humiliation of the people that were obliterated. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.158.30 ( talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Someone may want to check this in more detail, but I used to have a secretary who was native (north) American. She claimed there were more native americans alive today than when Columbus landed. Hunter gatherer societies just don't feed many people per square mile. Aaaronsmith ( talk) 19:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Goingoveredge you are following my contributions on wikipedia and reverting them from a long time like this, which you did on this article as well. What is your contention with this information that you deleted? -- RoadAhead Discuss 14:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
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Does anyone think that a genocide infobox would be a good idea and useful? I was thinking about making one, just curious what the opinion is-- Львівське ( talk) 20:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I think that the pro-Israel bias in this article is pretty astounding. Besides so off-handed, very defence, sources dealing with Sabra and Shatila there is nothing even remotely discussing what is happening in Palestine, especially the recent invasions. When there are UN reports discussing the possibility, and a number of accusations of genocide in 2009, this topic needs to mentioned in this article. Anything less is clearly biased, especially considering the amount of space devoted to Nazi death camps.-- 128.175.47.233 ( talk) 06:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
This reference, "King, Charles. The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus. Page 157", needs to be quoted to show it supports this sentence, However, according to some interpretations, such as that of the Prior of the Franciscan monks living in the region of where the events happened, claims this was not an act of genocide and that it was a two sided battle: "when they advanced victoriously under the protection of the Russian Army, the same spectacle occurred as in 1915, but this time it was Turks who were attacked by Armenians, aided and possibly commanded and directed by Russia.. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 22:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to find better sources for the matter. Charles King seems like a reliable source but, based on his readings, he doesn't come off as an expert on the study of the Armenian Genocide. Kansas Bear's highlighted sentence above reflects this. King writes "Moreover, Russia's support for Armenian village militias and guerrillas (fedayin) deepened the sultan's mistrust of the Armenian population... They came to see Armenian villagers as supporters of the fedayin, and therefore dangerous interests in the hands of their Russian enemy."
But in 1915, the Sultan was nothing but a figurehead. True power lay in the hands of the Young Turks, headed by personalities like Enver, Talaat and Jemal Pashas. The fedayin movement began in the early 1880s and that movement was directed against Sultan Abdul Hamid II, who was deposed by the Young Turks in 1908. The Russians, meanwhile, didn't really support the fedayins and in one instance, Cossack border guards were responsible for stopping them from carrying out reprisals across the Ottoman-Russian borders. It was only during World War I when the Russians mobilized four special regiments made up of Armenians living in Russia to participate in warfare, and even then against the Ottoman armies. Richard G. Hovannisian succinctly summarizes this period in his Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1967), so you can turn to him as someone who is well within his field to comment on such matters. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following opinions are not referenced;
These opinions need WP:RS or they will be removed.
Also, the following "references"
only reference this part of the sentence, "....and the Balkan Wars, in which the Turks saw countless massacres, forced exoduses, and ethnic cleansing of Muslim.."
The rest of the sentence, "...and the guilty parties got away with it." is simply opinion.
This "reference"
has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire and states nothing of the Ottoman Empire's views. Therefore it is WP:SYN. And will be deleted.-- Kansas Bear ( talk) 04:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
These are the recent changes I have made: [ [11]].
Basically, I took info from the Armenian Genocide page, and moved stuff around so that it would fit well with the rest of the section. I removed some of the previously uncited stuff because it more or less the same was stated- with citations- in the new text (for example, the Turkish argument that relocation does not constitute genocide; that the Armenians represented a threat due to tehir pro-Russian stances; emphasis placed on "Armenian gangs"; and pointing out Turkish casualties to further the view of "brutal war"). What do you think of it now? Bagramyan, Should we still include the book you suggested (you have not given me any links, I assume you decided not to).-- Yalens ( talk) 15:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I think this dispute has truly been blown out of proportion. We really shouldn't be haggling over an issue for which ample sources exist. The literature available on the Armenian Genocide is volumnious and if anyone is wishing to find some more detailed works, they can turn to those listed in the bibliography section of the Armenian Genocide page, many of which can be viewed for free through Amazon.com or GoogleBooks. Nevertheless, I have provided scans of two pages from Richard G. Hovannisian's Armenia on the Road to Independence (Berkeley, 1967), which I hope will hope will help clarify certain problems (which Yalens and I spoke of earlier, above). Hovannisian does an excellent job in spelling out aspirations of the Armenian political organizations during the 1890s (p. 16) and the importance in distinguishing the Armenian regiments in the Russian army and the Ottoman Armenian fedayees. I, however, am doubtful that the non-free use rationale will be adequate and in all probability both will be deleted within seven days, so I advise that you save them on to your desktop and open it from there for future reference. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that I tried to copy the first paragraph from the AG article onto the appropriate section and make the relevant edits, but was promptly (blind) reverted by you, re-adding in the mix blocks of irrelevant and incoherent text. Even your most recent edit does absolutely nothing to provide the reader with what exactly was the Armenian Genocide. The entire section lends undue weight for the denialist argument, and even that it is poorly written. The IP's comments hit the nail on the head. I would much rather see the first paragraph from the AG article, accompanied by a short blurb on the denial of the genocide by Turkey, inserted than the disconnected mass of material that currently sits there.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 07:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
This section has serious violations of undue weight WP:WEIGHT with the use of Rush Limbaugh "This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures." Taken from ft No. 21 [ [15]] This soucre should not be used: WP:IRS.
In reality the opposite is true, ideology has been linked to deflated population numbers: "The manipulation of data undertaken by succeeding generations of Euroamerican historians and anthropologists in arriving at the official 20th century falsehood that there were 'not more than one million Indians living north of the Rio Grande in 1492, including Greenland' is laid out very clearly by Jennings, Francis, The Invasion of America:" [ [16]] Limbaugh goes on to accuse indigenous peoples of "a greater degree of savagery". This is outreagous. Definately undue weight, and non-neutral POV, and possible racism. Limbaugh is no expert.
The numbers:
[ [17]] The person cited David Stannard, American Holocaust [ [18]].
This is not what Stannard's book says: He says "8 million" people to as many as "18 million" north of the Rio Grande (US & Canada). Look closely, the edit says "the indigenous population of the Western Hemisphere" ie North & South America. However, Stannard says "75 million" people to as high as "145 million" for the entire western hemisphere. This violates WP:IRS "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made." They say the opposite. David Stannard, American Holocaust: Columbus and the Conquest of the New World, pgs 120-1 and appendix I.
Actual numbers do have a dispute, but "T]here is now a rough academic consensus, quite sharply at odds with figures conventionally accepted earlier in this century" on the population in 1492 at "between 60 and 120 million people" for all the America's. With "from 7 to 18 million people north of Mexico" Kirkpatrick Sale, The Conquest of Paradise: Christopher Columbus and the Columbian Legacy, 1990. pg 315-6.
Even those with lower estimates, say Ubelaker, Thornton say there were millions in the area that became the US. For both continents together something like 60 million (low) to of over 100 million (higher estimates). For the area that became the US, it's Dobyns at roughly 8-18 million (high). Thornton at 7 million. Ubelaker at 2.1 (low). There is no way 1,8 million is for both North & South America or even North America. I corrected some of this error on [ [19]], then Jagdfeld changed it - no reason given [ [20]] Jagdfeld, what is your justification for this edit? Please respond or it will be deleted. Ebanony ( talk) 06:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
In his book Death by Government, Professor R.J. Rummel argues that "a full scale genocide was carried out in the Vendée in which possibly 117,000 inhabitants were systematically murdered." [dubious – discuss]
Ledenierhomme What is dubious about the statement? It is not a statement of fact or are you saying that the Rummel is dubious source? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are not disputing that the statement is verifiable and an accurate reflection of the text from which the the Wikipedia sentence is derived, you are disputing that R.J. Rummel is a reliable source. The text was added by C.J. Griffin lets ask that editor's opinion. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 18:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
C.J. Griffin, I encourage you to read all the sources cited in the section of this article, before drawing any conclusions as to which sources and statements are plausible or dubious. If your main resource is the internet, well, that's a shame, but at least read Gough's article (which is available online) and look into who some of the authorities mentioned are, before you quote a rather irrelevant book by Rummel, who is not an expert on this subject and who admits his information is second-hand. FYI, Ladouce (another Catholic Christian) is not the source of the 117,000 figure, Secher is - in which case the quote from Rummel is third-hand, and only demonstrates that he is not a reliable source for this subject (the War in the Vendee). Rummel may well be a respected academic, but his credentials are irrelevant as far as this article is concerned. Would you refer to Stephen Hawking in an article on the Yellow Turban Rebellion?
The article as it stands is already too long, and does a gross disservice to the subject matter as it in essence, places the words of polemicists (in most cases self-published in all but name) on an equal footing with established authorities who are specialists/experts on the subjects and have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
Unfortunately there seems to be no shortage of anti-French racists and bigots looking to point score over something as serious as genocide, and mob rule has ensured that Secher's polemics remain intact. - Ledenierhomme ( talk) 18:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Both of these countries' alleged genocides are under the heading of International Prosecution of Genocide rather than in the main list of alleged genocides. This seems wrong, but as a reader who came here to just to read the article, I would rather leave this edit up to someone more involved in this page. The heading "International Criminal Court" seems to have no text under it that relates to the heading. Has something gone missing? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing "a crime against humanity" in reference to that regime's persecution of its Christian minorities including Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks among others [1]. Contrary to popular conception the Armenians were by far not the only ethnic minority to suffer as the Ottoman Empire disolved and Assyrians and Greeks also suffered the genocidal depradations of the Young Turks while many researches consider these events to be part of the same policy of planned ethnoreligious purification of the Turkish state followed by the Young Turks [2].
.. This joint statement stated:
>=====Armenian Genocide=====
On 15 September 2005 a United States Congressional resolution on the Armenian Genocide "Calling upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes." found that:
The BBC reported that 16 December 2003, "The Swiss lower house of parliament has voted to describe the mass killings of Armenians during the last years of the Ottoman Empire as genocide. [...] Fifteen countries have now agreed to label the killings as genocide. They include France [in 2001], Argentina and Russia." [5] On 12 October 2006, French lawmakers "approved a bill making it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I amounted to genocide. Turkey quickly objected, with its Foreign Ministry saying that the decision "dealt a heavy blow" to Turkish-French relations and 'created great disappointment in our country.'" [6]
>=====Assyrian Genocide=====
The Assyrian Genocide (also known as Sayfo or Seyfo; Aramaic: ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ or ܣܝܦܐ, Turkish: Süryani Soykırımı) was committed against the Assyrian population of the Ottoman Empire near the end of the First World War by the Young Turks. [7] The Assyrian/Syriac population of northern Mesopotamia ( Tur Abdin, Hakkari, Van, Siirt region in modern-day southeastern Turkey and Urmia region in northwestern Iran) was forcibly relocated and massacred by Ottoman ( Turkish and Kurdish) forces between 1914 and 1920 under the regime of the Young Turks. [8] This genocide is considered to be a part of the same policy of extermination as the Armenian Genocide and Pontic Greek Genocide.The Assyro-Chaldean National Council stated in a December 4, 1922, memorandum that the total death toll is unknown, but it estimates that about 275,000 " Assyro-Chaldeans" died between 1914–1918. [9]
>=====Greek Genocide=====
Pontic Greek Genocide [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] is a term used to refer to the fate of the Pontic Greek population of the Ottoman Empire during and in the aftermath of World War I. It is used to refer to the determined persecutions, massacres, expulsions, and death marches of Pontian Greek populations in the historical region of Pontus, the southeastern Black Sea provinces of the Ottoman Empire, during the early 20th century by the Young Turk administration. G.W. Rendel of the British Foreign Office noted the massacres of Greeks in Pontus and elsewhere during the Turkish national movement, [17] [18] [13] which was organized against Greece's invasion of western Anatolia. [19]According to various sources the direct or indirect death toll of Greeks in Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000 men, women and children.
>=====Turkish Denial=====
The Republic of Turkey government disputes this interpretation of events and maintains that crucial documents supporting the genocide thesis are actually falsifications. [20] Seen as historical revisionism by many historians, the topic is virtually taboo in Turkey. Laws like Article 301 are used to bring charges against people like the Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk, who had stated that "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it". [21] However, Turkish authorities do acknowledge that the issue should be left to the historians [22] and in an open letter by Prime Minister Erdogan to the U.S. President dated 10 April 2005, extended an "invitation to your country to establish a joint group consisting of historians and other experts from our two countries to study the developments and events of 1915 not only in the archives of Ottoman Empire, Turkey and Armenia but also in the archives of all relevant third countries and to share their findings with the international public". [23] Furthermore, in spite of vehement resistance by nationalist groups, an academic conference was held on September 24, 2005 in Istanbul to discuss the early 20th century massacre of Armenians. [24]. In their book Negotiating the Sacred: Blasphemy and Sacrilege in a Multicultural Society, Elizabeth Burns Coleman, Kevin White present a list of reasons explaining Turkey's inability to admit the genocides commited by the Young Turks [25]
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There has been a considerable extension to this section and I think it raises some issues.
-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 13:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
p.10
The one-sided association of the Armenian genocide with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire is a relatively new phenomenon.
Adam Jones, IAGS member, Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia http://www.genocidescholars.org/blog/?cat=16
Over the past decade, many in our community have become more aware that the Ottomans’ genocidal campaign between 1914 and 1923 — that is, between the outbreak of the First World War and the establishment of the Turkish Republic — targeted more than Armenians only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
3. Error corrected, thanks for pointing it out. Wrt to use of the term genocide this is also being debated in the article's talk page and there is a list of sources here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_quotes_on_the_Pontic_Greek_Genocide
If you are inclined I would appreciate your taking the time to comment as there is currently a lack of concensus and a third party taking a look could only help. There is also an open RfC. Thanks. Xenovatis ( talk) 14:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
During the Second Boer War, the internment of women and children in concentration camps led to massive loss of life - approximately 25% of the interned died, including 50% of the children. Past what threshold can incompetence and willful neglect be considered a policy of active genocide? Fazalmajid ( talk) 05:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, the Irish famine is mentioned but there is nothing about the identical famine in the Highlands at the same time. There's also nothing about the "pacification of the Highlands" in the second half of the 18th century, where British troops undertook ethnic cleansing in the Highlands of Scotland. Lianachan ( talk) 11:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
How come there is no mention of the estimated 15 million native Americans killed in America? [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] Ijanderson977 ( talk) 22:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2008, The U.S. state of Texas seized all the children belonging to one religious group, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints (FLDS). This fits the international definition of genocide, but is clearly not the equivalent of many other historic genocides. Is there a place for genocide "light"? 75.36.143.2 ( talk) 16:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
We should also include the Iriquois genocide of the Huron and Erie. Aaaronsmith ( talk) 04:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
in the part about Rwanda it says "The rate at which people were killed far exceeded any other genocide in history" i disagree the holocaust was far worse.... Lotharsrevenge
See Talk:Genocides_in_history/Archive_5#China -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that amounts to genocide," with four sources. What do the authors in the cited books actually say. as "amounts to genocide" does not mean genocide (which must have intent to commit a genocide of protected groups and the and actual destruction of the group). -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The link to Krstic links to the Serbian profession basketball player, it should link to Radislav Krstić. That's all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.216.131.122 ( talk) 19:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
From the history of the page:
What Makelo said was "In living memory, we have seen cruelty, massacres, and genocide, but we have never seen human beings hunted down as though they were game animals," ( DR Congo pygmies appeal to UN BBC 23 May 2003) It is not clear from that statement that he means local conditions (and not for example genocides in other parts of the world) and even if he did mean locally he was talking about genocide in the past not at the time he was quoted. To base a whole section on such a quote is to create a section giving undue weight weight to one indirect quote.
Even if he had been less circumspect and stated that a genocide was happening in 2003 to the pygmies, he is not a disinterested party and he has a valid political reason for suggesting genocide as it is one of the few reasons that the UN can use to involve its self in the internal affairs of a state (see Genocide#Security Council responsibility to protect). Do you have a source from a genocide scholar or a member of the security council or some other reliable source, who agrees with Sinafasi Makelo's analysis? If not then again this falls under WP:UNDUE -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Maybe, you missed it in the rest of the article, where Makelo calls for the UN Security Council to recognize the cannibalism that his people are suffering as a genocide, it was not just that one quote. Could it now be considered due weight? Editingman ( talk) 20:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Quoting the article "Mr Makelo called on the forum to ask the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide." That does not say that he considers the current acts are a crime against humanity and an act of genocide, but that Mr Makelo asked the council to consider recognising cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide. Presumably if the forum had asked the security council to consider his proposal and said yes then he would argue that the situation in 2003 was a genocide. Were his requests put forward by the forum to the U.N. Security Council? Were they considered by the U.N. Security Council? If the answer is no in both cases then this would defiantly fall under WP:UNDUE. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this article called "genocides in history" when it lists both genocides and alleged genocides? Seems to me a name change would be appropriate to more accurately reflect the content. Gatoclass ( talk) 08:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Article 6 – Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity
- 1 Each Party shall adopt such legislative measures as may be necessary to establish the following conduct as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:
- distributing or otherwise making available, through a computer system to the public, material which denies, grossly minimises, approves or justifies acts constituting genocide or crimes against humanity, as defined by international law and recognised as such by final and binding decisions of the International Military Tribunal, established by the London Agreement of 8 August 1945, or of any other international court established by relevant international instruments and whose jurisdiction is recognised by that Party. [10] (my emphasis)
The position of Her Majesty's Government, which the noble Baroness has asked us to review, is, I believe, well known and understood, but it certainly bears repeating here tonight. The British Government condemned the massacres of 1915-16 at the time and viewed the sufferings of the Armenian people then as a tragedy of historic proportions. The British Government of today, like their predecessors, in no way dissent in any form from that view. Nor do we seek to deny or to play down the extent of that tragedy. It was a gruesome, horrifying tragedy, as the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and other noble Lords have echoed tonight. I assure them that we are in no way dissenting from that analysis of what happened, but in the absence of unequivocal evidence to show that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at the time, British governments have not recognised the events of 1915 and 1916 as "genocide".
- Many other governments--and here I have to say to your Lordships, in spite of some of the statements that have been made tonight, the vast majority of other governments--are in a similar position. ...
Where's this? A terrorist group ( EOKA-B) was made the genocide to Turkish Cypriot in 1963 - 1974... And write to "Kanlı Noel" (Bloody Christmas) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.183.203.82 ( talk) 12:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I am quite suprised that Leopold II's rule of the Congo as a Belgian colony is not on here. I am sadly not knowledgeable enough to add a section on it straightaway, but shall try to find some resources to make a start. Is there any reason why it has not been included thus far? Epa101 ( talk) 12:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just added this:
The Guardian reported in July 2002 that, after initial outrage by Belgian historians over King Leopold's Ghost, the state-funded Museum of the Belgian Congo would finance an investigation into Hochschild's allegations. The investigatory panel, likely to be headed by Professor Jean-Luc Vellut, was scheduled to report its findings in 2004 (Andrew Osborn Belgium exhumes its colonial demons The Guardian July 13, 2002). An exhibition by the Museum of the Belgian Congo, called "The Memory of Congo" (February 4, 2005 - October 9, 2005), claimed to tell the "truth" of what happened in Belgium's colony. Critics of the museum include Adam Hochschild, who wrote an article for the New York Review of Books extensively documenting what he found to be distortions and evasions in the special 2005 exhibition (Adam Hochschild In the Heart of Darkness, New York Review of Books, 26 October 2005).
to the article King Leopold's Ghost. But the Adam Hochschild includes in his article a paragraph that starts:
The exhibit deals with this question in a wall panel misleadingly headed “Genocide in the Congo?” This is a red herring, for no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different.
So it seems this is not a section for this article just yet. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 23:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Has any-one any good sources on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II as a Genocide in history? This source for example states that both de Zayas and Pohl argue that it was Genocide under the 1951 Genocide convention while Bell-Fialkoss seems to disagree. Anyone know of any other scholars/sources which take a position or mention the debate?-- Stor stark7 Speak 16:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Inclusion Criteria
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While there are countless opinions on what has been defined as a historical genocide, the following criteria have been applied to incidents for inclusion in the Genocides in history list; all of the criteria listed below must be fulfilled by an incident for it to be included in the article:
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In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 01:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi. This deserves a mention in a new section, just like the Nazi Genocide in WWII, death toll about 8 - 30+ million. Thanks. ~ A H 1( T C U) 00:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Does the outlawing en masse of the Clan Gregor in Scotland in 1603 count as genocide? See the act of the Scottish Parliament of 1617 quoted in the article. PatGallacher ( talk) 19:50, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the genocide of people of Chinese descent in vietnam and indonesia? 81.155.102.122 ( talk) 02:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080320205224.htm
Is very interesting because it shows how the populations under the Spanish empire have survived to this day in the majority, mixed or otherwise. Of course the populations of Latin America suffered their share, like all popualtions that were stripped of their lands and civilizations, but the Angl Saxon model has been sadly much more horrible. The question is simple. Where are these native populations in North America and what per centage of the present population do they represent? Because they happen to be the majority in Latin America.
Population genetics is showing that the genocide committted in North America, the US and Canada, must have been of horrif dimentions. Populations genetics is showinf that virtually everiwhere in the world the native popualtions contin ue to represent the majority of the population, in Latin America or elsewherek, with different degrees of admixture, with the notable exception of some countries, namely the US, Cana or Australia.
The US and Canada extend over a territory of more than 20 million square kilometeres, twice the size of China, and today, it can be assured, the population that comes from the Native American peoples has virtually died out. The scale aand degree of this of this genocide North of the Border of Mexico has been systematically ignored or downplayed, without doubt due to the American and Anglo Saxon control of recednt history and the information channnels, another step in the humiliation of the people that were obliterated. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.153.158.30 ( talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Someone may want to check this in more detail, but I used to have a secretary who was native (north) American. She claimed there were more native americans alive today than when Columbus landed. Hunter gatherer societies just don't feed many people per square mile. Aaaronsmith ( talk) 19:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Goingoveredge you are following my contributions on wikipedia and reverting them from a long time like this, which you did on this article as well. What is your contention with this information that you deleted? -- RoadAhead Discuss 14:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
(UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does anyone think that a genocide infobox would be a good idea and useful? I was thinking about making one, just curious what the opinion is-- Львівське ( talk) 20:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I think that the pro-Israel bias in this article is pretty astounding. Besides so off-handed, very defence, sources dealing with Sabra and Shatila there is nothing even remotely discussing what is happening in Palestine, especially the recent invasions. When there are UN reports discussing the possibility, and a number of accusations of genocide in 2009, this topic needs to mentioned in this article. Anything less is clearly biased, especially considering the amount of space devoted to Nazi death camps.-- 128.175.47.233 ( talk) 06:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
This reference, "King, Charles. The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus. Page 157", needs to be quoted to show it supports this sentence, However, according to some interpretations, such as that of the Prior of the Franciscan monks living in the region of where the events happened, claims this was not an act of genocide and that it was a two sided battle: "when they advanced victoriously under the protection of the Russian Army, the same spectacle occurred as in 1915, but this time it was Turks who were attacked by Armenians, aided and possibly commanded and directed by Russia.. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 22:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to find better sources for the matter. Charles King seems like a reliable source but, based on his readings, he doesn't come off as an expert on the study of the Armenian Genocide. Kansas Bear's highlighted sentence above reflects this. King writes "Moreover, Russia's support for Armenian village militias and guerrillas (fedayin) deepened the sultan's mistrust of the Armenian population... They came to see Armenian villagers as supporters of the fedayin, and therefore dangerous interests in the hands of their Russian enemy."
But in 1915, the Sultan was nothing but a figurehead. True power lay in the hands of the Young Turks, headed by personalities like Enver, Talaat and Jemal Pashas. The fedayin movement began in the early 1880s and that movement was directed against Sultan Abdul Hamid II, who was deposed by the Young Turks in 1908. The Russians, meanwhile, didn't really support the fedayins and in one instance, Cossack border guards were responsible for stopping them from carrying out reprisals across the Ottoman-Russian borders. It was only during World War I when the Russians mobilized four special regiments made up of Armenians living in Russia to participate in warfare, and even then against the Ottoman armies. Richard G. Hovannisian succinctly summarizes this period in his Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918 (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1967), so you can turn to him as someone who is well within his field to comment on such matters. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 21:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following opinions are not referenced;
These opinions need WP:RS or they will be removed.
Also, the following "references"
only reference this part of the sentence, "....and the Balkan Wars, in which the Turks saw countless massacres, forced exoduses, and ethnic cleansing of Muslim.."
The rest of the sentence, "...and the guilty parties got away with it." is simply opinion.
This "reference"
has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire and states nothing of the Ottoman Empire's views. Therefore it is WP:SYN. And will be deleted.-- Kansas Bear ( talk) 04:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
These are the recent changes I have made: [ [11]].
Basically, I took info from the Armenian Genocide page, and moved stuff around so that it would fit well with the rest of the section. I removed some of the previously uncited stuff because it more or less the same was stated- with citations- in the new text (for example, the Turkish argument that relocation does not constitute genocide; that the Armenians represented a threat due to tehir pro-Russian stances; emphasis placed on "Armenian gangs"; and pointing out Turkish casualties to further the view of "brutal war"). What do you think of it now? Bagramyan, Should we still include the book you suggested (you have not given me any links, I assume you decided not to).-- Yalens ( talk) 15:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I think this dispute has truly been blown out of proportion. We really shouldn't be haggling over an issue for which ample sources exist. The literature available on the Armenian Genocide is volumnious and if anyone is wishing to find some more detailed works, they can turn to those listed in the bibliography section of the Armenian Genocide page, many of which can be viewed for free through Amazon.com or GoogleBooks. Nevertheless, I have provided scans of two pages from Richard G. Hovannisian's Armenia on the Road to Independence (Berkeley, 1967), which I hope will hope will help clarify certain problems (which Yalens and I spoke of earlier, above). Hovannisian does an excellent job in spelling out aspirations of the Armenian political organizations during the 1890s (p. 16) and the importance in distinguishing the Armenian regiments in the Russian army and the Ottoman Armenian fedayees. I, however, am doubtful that the non-free use rationale will be adequate and in all probability both will be deleted within seven days, so I advise that you save them on to your desktop and open it from there for future reference. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 05:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that I tried to copy the first paragraph from the AG article onto the appropriate section and make the relevant edits, but was promptly (blind) reverted by you, re-adding in the mix blocks of irrelevant and incoherent text. Even your most recent edit does absolutely nothing to provide the reader with what exactly was the Armenian Genocide. The entire section lends undue weight for the denialist argument, and even that it is poorly written. The IP's comments hit the nail on the head. I would much rather see the first paragraph from the AG article, accompanied by a short blurb on the denial of the genocide by Turkey, inserted than the disconnected mass of material that currently sits there.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 07:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
This section has serious violations of undue weight WP:WEIGHT with the use of Rush Limbaugh "This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures." Taken from ft No. 21 [ [15]] This soucre should not be used: WP:IRS.
In reality the opposite is true, ideology has been linked to deflated population numbers: "The manipulation of data undertaken by succeeding generations of Euroamerican historians and anthropologists in arriving at the official 20th century falsehood that there were 'not more than one million Indians living north of the Rio Grande in 1492, including Greenland' is laid out very clearly by Jennings, Francis, The Invasion of America:" [ [16]] Limbaugh goes on to accuse indigenous peoples of "a greater degree of savagery". This is outreagous. Definately undue weight, and non-neutral POV, and possible racism. Limbaugh is no expert.
The numbers:
[ [17]] The person cited David Stannard, American Holocaust [ [18]].
This is not what Stannard's book says: He says "8 million" people to as many as "18 million" north of the Rio Grande (US & Canada). Look closely, the edit says "the indigenous population of the Western Hemisphere" ie North & South America. However, Stannard says "75 million" people to as high as "145 million" for the entire western hemisphere. This violates WP:IRS "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article, and should be appropriate to the claims made." They say the opposite. David Stannard, American Holocaust: Columbus and the Conquest of the New World, pgs 120-1 and appendix I.
Actual numbers do have a dispute, but "T]here is now a rough academic consensus, quite sharply at odds with figures conventionally accepted earlier in this century" on the population in 1492 at "between 60 and 120 million people" for all the America's. With "from 7 to 18 million people north of Mexico" Kirkpatrick Sale, The Conquest of Paradise: Christopher Columbus and the Columbian Legacy, 1990. pg 315-6.
Even those with lower estimates, say Ubelaker, Thornton say there were millions in the area that became the US. For both continents together something like 60 million (low) to of over 100 million (higher estimates). For the area that became the US, it's Dobyns at roughly 8-18 million (high). Thornton at 7 million. Ubelaker at 2.1 (low). There is no way 1,8 million is for both North & South America or even North America. I corrected some of this error on [ [19]], then Jagdfeld changed it - no reason given [ [20]] Jagdfeld, what is your justification for this edit? Please respond or it will be deleted. Ebanony ( talk) 06:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)