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Recently the section Genocides in history#Communist Vietnam was removed and that removal was reverted. Yet the section includes synthesis and the claim that it was a genocide, was made by someone in a radio broadcast. The synthesis is to use Steven Rosefielde to describe the incident but then to switch to other sources for the claim of genocide (If Rosefielde did not state it was a genocide but "exterminat[ion of] class enemies", he presumably had a reason (But even if he had is he qualified to analysis what is or is not a genocide?)
The radio broadcast is:
{{
cite web}}
: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors=
(
help)The claims are:
The first comment which quotes no-one flies in the face of the development of the legal body of law that has developed at the international tribunals since the late 1990s. The two people quoted are AFAICT neither notable genocide or legal scholars. Further it is not at all clear that the Pol Pot regime committed genocide the only case to date to be completed states the crimes were war crimes and crimes against humanity (which encompasses mass murder). I suspect that if any of the Pol Pot regime are found guilty of genocide it will be for the targeting and eliminating one of the ethnic minorities in Cambodia rather than genocide based on politicide.
So, I think that unless there is a more reliable source (see Radio Free Asia#Criticism) that states that these mass killing were a genocide, or that it is common coin in a country (as are claims that genocide took place in the the Pakistan (Bangladesh War of 1971)), the section it should be removed. -- PBS ( talk) 18:57, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
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I really don't have so much to contribute to the matter, other than I have seen a documentary on youtube, that estimated the deaths of Congolese between the Berlin Congo Conference and the annexation of Congo by the Belgian nation around 20 million. I wonder if this should not been put here. As I understood those people died as consequences of a brutal forced labor policy on King Leopolds privately hold territory rather then in an intentional effort to wipe the Congolese out, so I don't know, wether this is classified as genocide, but the high numbers in a single decade make me feel like it should be mentioned on this Wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.177.39 ( talk) 20:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
I find this sentence, "Peaking around 8-9 million in the early 19th century, Ireland's population fell to around 4 million during the Famine, because of emigration and starvation.[96]", quite problematic (and it cites a dead link). The implicit suggestion is that the population halved or thereabouts during the famine, but a quick glance through the Death toll section in the Great Irish Famine article tells me this is very wrong and that the likely figure lies somewhere around 1-1.5 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.79.209 ( talk) 04:17, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
The Irish Famine was not an example of genocide. There was no evidence that it was government policy - indeed the mere suggestion that it was is despicable and defamatory. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 04:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence "Peaking around 8-9 million..." and replaced it with some sentences taken from the lead in the main Irish Famine page. BritishWatcher with few exceptions, on this page are lots of genocides which are contentious. In this case we have in the article two legal opinions that it was a genocide. I suspect that like the Tasmainian genocide, the legal experts based their opinions on secondary sources which may or may not reflect the best most recent scholarship. However we can not dismiss those opinions just because they may not be the majority opinion, because they are the opinions of experts in the legal field. In the same section there are a number of paragraphs stating that in the opinion of other the experts this was not a genocide. What exactly is it that we need to add to balance the POV so that we can take you banner off the top? -- PBS ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The French Normans committed planned genocide in England but I see yet another historical revision at work. 82.31.236.245 ( talk) 23:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I feel the bit about it not being genocide, the opinion of William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights, is important since no sane person can honestly call what happened at Sabra and Shatila "genocide". I also feel that the long Kuper quote is clearly just sheer speculation about the motives of the UN's calling it "genocide". At the very least, it ought to be balanced out with a contrary quote given the same prominence. That would then mean we'd have an enormous section bickering about Sabra-Shatila, something that wasn't even genocide.
If I am more honest, I feel that Kuper's quote is simply a POV push: many would say that the Israeli government's line often likes to argue that Israel is always unfairly picked on etc. At the very least, I feel Kuper should be heavily chopped down to a summary; the prominence and space he is given at the moment is not necessary or merited.
Anyway, so those are my feelings on Sabra-Shatila. ColaXtra ( talk) 16:23, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
You should remove your revert. The changes you removed all improved the article. They are mostly from the Shabra Shatila article, and the sources are reliable. Why did you revert? You need precise objections to the changes to remove them. 109.150.79.43 ( talk) 17:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
http://www.counter-propaganda.w3.lt/genoci/engenoci.php The ancient Israelites murdered anyone who wasn't one of them. Christianity was spread through Europe by murdering anyone who wasn't Christian. In the US and Canda, they killed off the indenous people with disease. South of the US, they spread Christianity by the sword. In Asia, they spread Islam by the sword. In Britain, in the 19th century, they murdered and forced Scottish Highlanders to emigrate. Australia, killed off many aboriginees. The Jews are only able to get their ancestral homeland back by killing off all the Muslims there.
http://www.enotes.com/ancient-world-reference/ancient-world Greeks wipe out Troy. Various stuff in Asia such as India, Babylon area, and Israel area.
http://www.genocidetext.net/gaci_origins.pdf African Zulus killed off the other tribes, 1810-1828
These aren't the sources Wikipedia likes, but they reference other sources it does. It'll take work to look it up but I'm just seeing who else thinks the article is lacking. Some people seem to think the 20th century was the century of genocide, when truly genocide is a very ancient thing.
Oh and here's an article on Eskimo/Inuit types who killed off all of another one of their types, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beothuk Are you ready for IPv6? ( talk) 04:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I won't edit war over a source, but the IAGS Resolution is not a Reputable source...because, it was never passed or affirmed by the organization.
Here is the IAGS page on Resolutions and Statements. There are some good ones about the Armenian Genocide, but this resolution does not exist. (Also read some of the resolutions, they don't use WHEREAS clauses). So now we have some internet Wayback link to a Resolution from the website written with WHEREAS clauses. No indication of whether it was passed (like the other resolutions), no statement of historical evidence (like the other resolutions), no date or signature by the leadership (like the other resolutions). There is no indication that this resolution was ever supported by the organization at all, the clearest evidence being that they don't host it on their website section on Resolutions. The link does not belong, it is not an actual passed resolution by the IAGS and ascribing it to them is intellectually dishonest. ascribing the claim to them without certification by the organization itself should not be done lightly. Peace.
AbstractIllusions (
talk)
01:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
. Is he also "intellectually dishonest"? Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 03:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)<ref name="Jones2010">{{cite book|author=Adam Jones|title=Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=BqdVudSuTRIC&pg=PA172|accessdate=27 September 2012|date=26 October 2010|publisher=Taylor & Francis|isbn=978-0-415-48618-7|pages=171–172|quote= A resolution was placed before the IAGS membership to recognize the Greek and Assyrian/Chaldean components of the Ottoman Genocide against Christians, alongside the Armenian strand of the genocide (which the IAGS has already formally acknowledged). The result, passed emphatically in December 2007 despite not inconsiderable opposition, was a resolution which I co-drafted, reading as follows:... (IAGS resolution is on page 172)}}</ref>
I agree with Dr.K. ColaXtra ( talk) 11:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
The section talks about a "massacre" (without any RS citation) and has only 3 refs. From these 3, Ref 140 is a self-publication. Ref 142 is a dead end link to a "AraratNews" site. Not only the ref page but the website (araratnews.eu) is dead-end. Could someone give more info for the third source ("Genocide" by George Andreopoulos?) All three sources in this section are problematic and of course there is no citation from any RS on a "genocide" with this name. Therefore I am going to remove this section. -- E4024 ( talk) 19:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
E4024 asked me to comment while I was handling an unrelated problem for him. I suggest that the two of you at least get a third opinion on this, or take it to WT:IRS, where there are third parties more skilled than I at determining whether Bruinessen's work would be acceptable as a self-published source. Daniel Case ( talk) 15:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I read about this horse they had. Loads of Greeks in it, then they all came out and killed everyone. I think it's called the "Trojan Genocide" in the literature, why is it not mentioned in the article? ColaXtra ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Total bullshit. This should not be in an article about genocides. Completely ridiculous. As are many of the other examples listed-- just expanding the definition of "genocide" to meet political ends-- unscholarly and morally repugnant.
76.232.253.147 ( talk) 20:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
The section about France and the counter-revolutionary Vendee conflict needs to be removed - there is not a serious scholarly debate about it. A consensus of historians reject claims of genocide as nonsensical. 76.232.253.147 ( talk) 23:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
The section is marred by a low quality of sources, misrepresentation of prevailing opinions about the topics, and undue weight given to fringe opinions.
The "Decossackization" section is especially problematic. There is the impression of a consensus that a genocide occurred, but the cited sources are not at all authoritative about this particular conflict. Orlando Figes' source is not appropriate because his is a commercially-published book that provides a broad overview of Russian history from ca. 1890-1920. His book is not a study about the Revolution in the Cossack regions. The same is true of all the other sources.
Professor Futoryansky of Orenburg University is the world's leading scholar about the conflicts in the Cossack regions during the revolution, and he absolutely rejects that "decossackization" amounted to a genocide. Rather, he says that the White Terror was much worse than the security measures of the Soviet state:
Professor Golub also wrote a book about decossackization, and he completely rejects the idea that there was a genocide.
Even American historian Peter Holquist, who stated "The Bolshevik state did not, however, pursue an open-minded program of genocide against the Cossacks." (Making War, Forging Revolution: Russia's Continuum of Crisis, 1914-1921, p.187)
Whereas Golub, Futoryansky, Holquist are experts about the subject of the Cossacks, NONE of the sources cited to support the allegation of genocide against the Cossacks are authored by experts who have done their own original research about the subject -- the former sources completely supersede the latter. 76.232.253.147 ( talk) 20:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I acknowledge that you make some fair points, but just going ahead with such enormous revisions before any discussion is not on. Regardless, you are an obvious sock, and so your edits cannot be permitted to stand for that reason.
I agree that the definition of the word genocide should be restricted for use in such cases as the Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenia, the Native Americans, etc. Things like Sabra-Shatila, horrendous as they were, are not genocide in my book, and it is disgraceful to call them such; if we had my way, most of the article would vanish. My understanding, however, is that this is not the way Wikipedia works. Given that we both have concerns, perhaps we can work together to chop the article down?
One unavoidable problem occurs right at the very outset: we are not allowed to impose our (correct and proper) interpretation of the Genocide Convention onto the article. That means there are inevitably going to be instances of "genocide" making their way into the article—Sabra-Shatila, for example—because a reliable source calls it "genocide". I cannot see anyway around this issue.
This being the case, my understanding is that the article should not seek to assert whether any particular contested case is genocide, but to indicate (with a reliable source) when the description has been used, provide (with a reliable source) the opposing view, and ideally indicate (with a good source) what the current majority view is. This will enable anyone who comes to the page to read both sides of the story
Anyway, until you get blocked or are vouchsafed, let's go through one at a time. Poland 1937–8 first? ColaXtra ( talk) 23:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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The article currently contains a couple of links to pages on thirdworldtraveler.com which copy extensively from copyrighted work. So, I think they fail WP:ELNEVER, so it may be a good idea to remove them now. The citation would still mention the original work by Stannard which thirdworldtraveler.com copied, so WP:V is still satisfied. bobrayner ( talk) 20:35, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
There is not any kind of debate genocide involving this country in scholarly literature. The sources cited in this article are not reliable, involving Robert Park, who is an activist rather than a scholar. There is an editorial involving Washington Post newspaper, but the use of this kind of source is naive. There should instead be reliable genocide scholarship arguing whether genocide has occurred. 76.232.253.235 ( talk) 22:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
The 19th century conquests by France and Russia both constitute genocides, claiming at least 1 million lives each through scorched earth policies. Don't they deserve a mention? Especially since the Algerian government has spoken of allegations of genocide against France before, and official Algerian figures claim 1.5 million killed in the 1954-1962, although France maintains 300,000 were killed. In any case it deserves a mention. If I recall there was a section about Algeria years ago but it got removed. Chechnya can be put just under the Circassian section. UltimateDarkloid ( talk) 01:06, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
According to the POV pushing IP, the Russian politician, Leonid Kalashnikov "is not" being used as a specialist.
It can be clearly seen that Leonid Kalashnikov's statement is being used as a source against Holodomor being a genocide.
So along with edit-warring the IP is also using unreliable sources to push his/her POV. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
02:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I removed comments by two persistent sockpuppet accounts that were not responded by other participants My very best wishes ( talk) 01:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
So I just added some sections on Ainu and the religious conflicts/ethnic cleansings. But events have to be labeled as genocide by RS and defined by the ICC in order to be added here, right? But isn't "denial" part of the genocide characteristics? Example, I saw in the Ainu people article that they were labeled as an extinct/dead group by Russia and Japan despite the fact that they have not died out. Isn't this denial related to the genocide-type of behavior conducted by the Russians and the Japanese against the ethnic minority? What about the indigenous peoples of the Americas? Weren't they "cleansed"/deported by the Spaniards/Europeans/American colonists? Is the fact that the US or other nations' silence on the "genocide" type of behavior in the things they did in the past the same as the denial characteristic of the nations/groups conducting the genocides? Countries/groups don't like to label events as genocides or "admit" it, do they? - M0rphzone ( talk) 23:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The German WW2 war crimes are in this article, but from looking at the talk archives, it doesn't seem anyone has discussed whether or not the Japanese war crimes in WW2 were genocides. Didn't they kill thousands of Chinese in the Nanking Massacre (says hundreds of thousands in the article), thousands of Filipinos and Americans in the Bataan Death March (says 2,500–10,000 Filipino and 300–650 Americans in the article), and thousands of Koreans and other people as well? The genocides committed by the Germans are already in this article, and it says that Germans mass killed Soviets/Soviet POWs, but what about from the other side: i.e., what about the Soviet mass killings of German POWs? Are the killings/deportations of Native Americans by US troops/government/colonists genocide? - M0rphzone ( talk) 23:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I did the math on my calculator (it is not exact because some sections don't include the number of people killed), but I got the total number of people killed from 1915-2000 to be about 39.1 million people. Do you think this is relevant to the entry or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.156.235 ( talk) 20:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC) ~~Words~~
I've removed an old POV-section template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
AND THE IMPERIAL ARMY GENOCIDES AGAINST CHINESE PEOPLE????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.222.27.249 ( talk) 19:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The section on Sri Lanka is being repeatedly removed by editors whose excuse is that no RS claims genocide. They are deliberately ignoring the lead which states "The following list of genocides and alleged genocides should be understood in this context and cannot be regarded as the final word on these subjects." Numerous RS have been given for the allegations. There is no justification for the removal of the content.-- obi2canibe talk contr 20:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Non-RS sources are lobby groups like Global Tamil Forum, British Tamils Forum and the Canadian Tamil Congress who according to their mission statement seek to establish an independent state in Northern Sri Lanka called Tamil Eelam and their hired lawyers like Bruce Fein. The pamphlet referencing a Francis Boyle is just articles from Tamilnet a non-RS (for statements of act according to discussion in its talk page). Court cases that were dismissed again are not RS. Also statements from Canadian deportees for gang violations (the "refugee" issuing the claim in the source) is not RS. [4]
One of the sources PPT stated that there was not enough evidence for the claim 'genocide' according to the source in this passage itself.
And finally the the leaders of Tamil Nadu who have supported the LTTE in the past and some who still do are not RS. Karunandhi has come out as wanting a separate state called Tamil Eelam.
More tellingly, the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Crisis Watch, etc. -- neutral groups who have been critical of Sri Lanka's human rights records in no uncertain terms have not given credence to the claim of 'genocide' (which they have in actual cases of such) and prefer 'war crimes'. SinhaYugaya ( talk) 20:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I addressed both Fein (who is a hired lawyer for the Tamil advocacy group Tamils Against Genocide) and Boyle who's only sourced through Tamilnet articles. The Jurists don't make any conclusive judgement. SinhaYugaya ( talk) 11:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I think there are fairly obvious questions and answers here:
1) Can we say for sure that this was a genocide?
Answer: No, it's too debatable. But that's not our job anyway. The job of this page is to list genocide claims, not confirmed occurrences.
2) Are there enough sources to put the claim here?
Answer: Yes.
...but does the section need to be so long? No. A lot of the space in the section is just listing one Tamil advocacy group after another. Instead, they should all be grouped under one phrase and a number of different citations. The section is considerably inflated beyond the amount of space it should have, considering that all it's doing is listing one claimant after another with quotes.
--
Yalens (
talk)
02:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
This article is rather POV, as it mentions several mass murders who were in no way related to genocide. A severe clean up is needed here! For example, the Dirty War in Argentina, Zanzibar and Expulsion of Germans after World War II are despicable, but no deliberate attempt to kill off a specific group of people. The Banner talk 20:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Recently the section Genocides in history#Communist Vietnam was removed and that removal was reverted. Yet the section includes synthesis and the claim that it was a genocide, was made by someone in a radio broadcast. The synthesis is to use Steven Rosefielde to describe the incident but then to switch to other sources for the claim of genocide (If Rosefielde did not state it was a genocide but "exterminat[ion of] class enemies", he presumably had a reason (But even if he had is he qualified to analysis what is or is not a genocide?)
The radio broadcast is:
{{
cite web}}
: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors=
(
help)The claims are:
The first comment which quotes no-one flies in the face of the development of the legal body of law that has developed at the international tribunals since the late 1990s. The two people quoted are AFAICT neither notable genocide or legal scholars. Further it is not at all clear that the Pol Pot regime committed genocide the only case to date to be completed states the crimes were war crimes and crimes against humanity (which encompasses mass murder). I suspect that if any of the Pol Pot regime are found guilty of genocide it will be for the targeting and eliminating one of the ethnic minorities in Cambodia rather than genocide based on politicide.
So, I think that unless there is a more reliable source (see Radio Free Asia#Criticism) that states that these mass killing were a genocide, or that it is common coin in a country (as are claims that genocide took place in the the Pakistan (Bangladesh War of 1971)), the section it should be removed. -- PBS ( talk) 18:57, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
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I really don't have so much to contribute to the matter, other than I have seen a documentary on youtube, that estimated the deaths of Congolese between the Berlin Congo Conference and the annexation of Congo by the Belgian nation around 20 million. I wonder if this should not been put here. As I understood those people died as consequences of a brutal forced labor policy on King Leopolds privately hold territory rather then in an intentional effort to wipe the Congolese out, so I don't know, wether this is classified as genocide, but the high numbers in a single decade make me feel like it should be mentioned on this Wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.54.177.39 ( talk) 20:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
I find this sentence, "Peaking around 8-9 million in the early 19th century, Ireland's population fell to around 4 million during the Famine, because of emigration and starvation.[96]", quite problematic (and it cites a dead link). The implicit suggestion is that the population halved or thereabouts during the famine, but a quick glance through the Death toll section in the Great Irish Famine article tells me this is very wrong and that the likely figure lies somewhere around 1-1.5 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.79.209 ( talk) 04:17, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
The Irish Famine was not an example of genocide. There was no evidence that it was government policy - indeed the mere suggestion that it was is despicable and defamatory. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 04:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence "Peaking around 8-9 million..." and replaced it with some sentences taken from the lead in the main Irish Famine page. BritishWatcher with few exceptions, on this page are lots of genocides which are contentious. In this case we have in the article two legal opinions that it was a genocide. I suspect that like the Tasmainian genocide, the legal experts based their opinions on secondary sources which may or may not reflect the best most recent scholarship. However we can not dismiss those opinions just because they may not be the majority opinion, because they are the opinions of experts in the legal field. In the same section there are a number of paragraphs stating that in the opinion of other the experts this was not a genocide. What exactly is it that we need to add to balance the POV so that we can take you banner off the top? -- PBS ( talk) 18:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The French Normans committed planned genocide in England but I see yet another historical revision at work. 82.31.236.245 ( talk) 23:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello. I feel the bit about it not being genocide, the opinion of William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights, is important since no sane person can honestly call what happened at Sabra and Shatila "genocide". I also feel that the long Kuper quote is clearly just sheer speculation about the motives of the UN's calling it "genocide". At the very least, it ought to be balanced out with a contrary quote given the same prominence. That would then mean we'd have an enormous section bickering about Sabra-Shatila, something that wasn't even genocide.
If I am more honest, I feel that Kuper's quote is simply a POV push: many would say that the Israeli government's line often likes to argue that Israel is always unfairly picked on etc. At the very least, I feel Kuper should be heavily chopped down to a summary; the prominence and space he is given at the moment is not necessary or merited.
Anyway, so those are my feelings on Sabra-Shatila. ColaXtra ( talk) 16:23, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
You should remove your revert. The changes you removed all improved the article. They are mostly from the Shabra Shatila article, and the sources are reliable. Why did you revert? You need precise objections to the changes to remove them. 109.150.79.43 ( talk) 17:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
http://www.counter-propaganda.w3.lt/genoci/engenoci.php The ancient Israelites murdered anyone who wasn't one of them. Christianity was spread through Europe by murdering anyone who wasn't Christian. In the US and Canda, they killed off the indenous people with disease. South of the US, they spread Christianity by the sword. In Asia, they spread Islam by the sword. In Britain, in the 19th century, they murdered and forced Scottish Highlanders to emigrate. Australia, killed off many aboriginees. The Jews are only able to get their ancestral homeland back by killing off all the Muslims there.
http://www.enotes.com/ancient-world-reference/ancient-world Greeks wipe out Troy. Various stuff in Asia such as India, Babylon area, and Israel area.
http://www.genocidetext.net/gaci_origins.pdf African Zulus killed off the other tribes, 1810-1828
These aren't the sources Wikipedia likes, but they reference other sources it does. It'll take work to look it up but I'm just seeing who else thinks the article is lacking. Some people seem to think the 20th century was the century of genocide, when truly genocide is a very ancient thing.
Oh and here's an article on Eskimo/Inuit types who killed off all of another one of their types, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beothuk Are you ready for IPv6? ( talk) 04:08, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I won't edit war over a source, but the IAGS Resolution is not a Reputable source...because, it was never passed or affirmed by the organization.
Here is the IAGS page on Resolutions and Statements. There are some good ones about the Armenian Genocide, but this resolution does not exist. (Also read some of the resolutions, they don't use WHEREAS clauses). So now we have some internet Wayback link to a Resolution from the website written with WHEREAS clauses. No indication of whether it was passed (like the other resolutions), no statement of historical evidence (like the other resolutions), no date or signature by the leadership (like the other resolutions). There is no indication that this resolution was ever supported by the organization at all, the clearest evidence being that they don't host it on their website section on Resolutions. The link does not belong, it is not an actual passed resolution by the IAGS and ascribing it to them is intellectually dishonest. ascribing the claim to them without certification by the organization itself should not be done lightly. Peace.
AbstractIllusions (
talk)
01:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
. Is he also "intellectually dishonest"? Δρ.Κ. λόγος πράξις 03:42, 28 September 2012 (UTC)<ref name="Jones2010">{{cite book|author=Adam Jones|title=Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=BqdVudSuTRIC&pg=PA172|accessdate=27 September 2012|date=26 October 2010|publisher=Taylor & Francis|isbn=978-0-415-48618-7|pages=171–172|quote= A resolution was placed before the IAGS membership to recognize the Greek and Assyrian/Chaldean components of the Ottoman Genocide against Christians, alongside the Armenian strand of the genocide (which the IAGS has already formally acknowledged). The result, passed emphatically in December 2007 despite not inconsiderable opposition, was a resolution which I co-drafted, reading as follows:... (IAGS resolution is on page 172)}}</ref>
I agree with Dr.K. ColaXtra ( talk) 11:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
The section talks about a "massacre" (without any RS citation) and has only 3 refs. From these 3, Ref 140 is a self-publication. Ref 142 is a dead end link to a "AraratNews" site. Not only the ref page but the website (araratnews.eu) is dead-end. Could someone give more info for the third source ("Genocide" by George Andreopoulos?) All three sources in this section are problematic and of course there is no citation from any RS on a "genocide" with this name. Therefore I am going to remove this section. -- E4024 ( talk) 19:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
E4024 asked me to comment while I was handling an unrelated problem for him. I suggest that the two of you at least get a third opinion on this, or take it to WT:IRS, where there are third parties more skilled than I at determining whether Bruinessen's work would be acceptable as a self-published source. Daniel Case ( talk) 15:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
I read about this horse they had. Loads of Greeks in it, then they all came out and killed everyone. I think it's called the "Trojan Genocide" in the literature, why is it not mentioned in the article? ColaXtra ( talk) 22:15, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Total bullshit. This should not be in an article about genocides. Completely ridiculous. As are many of the other examples listed-- just expanding the definition of "genocide" to meet political ends-- unscholarly and morally repugnant.
76.232.253.147 ( talk) 20:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
The section about France and the counter-revolutionary Vendee conflict needs to be removed - there is not a serious scholarly debate about it. A consensus of historians reject claims of genocide as nonsensical. 76.232.253.147 ( talk) 23:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
The section is marred by a low quality of sources, misrepresentation of prevailing opinions about the topics, and undue weight given to fringe opinions.
The "Decossackization" section is especially problematic. There is the impression of a consensus that a genocide occurred, but the cited sources are not at all authoritative about this particular conflict. Orlando Figes' source is not appropriate because his is a commercially-published book that provides a broad overview of Russian history from ca. 1890-1920. His book is not a study about the Revolution in the Cossack regions. The same is true of all the other sources.
Professor Futoryansky of Orenburg University is the world's leading scholar about the conflicts in the Cossack regions during the revolution, and he absolutely rejects that "decossackization" amounted to a genocide. Rather, he says that the White Terror was much worse than the security measures of the Soviet state:
Professor Golub also wrote a book about decossackization, and he completely rejects the idea that there was a genocide.
Even American historian Peter Holquist, who stated "The Bolshevik state did not, however, pursue an open-minded program of genocide against the Cossacks." (Making War, Forging Revolution: Russia's Continuum of Crisis, 1914-1921, p.187)
Whereas Golub, Futoryansky, Holquist are experts about the subject of the Cossacks, NONE of the sources cited to support the allegation of genocide against the Cossacks are authored by experts who have done their own original research about the subject -- the former sources completely supersede the latter. 76.232.253.147 ( talk) 20:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I acknowledge that you make some fair points, but just going ahead with such enormous revisions before any discussion is not on. Regardless, you are an obvious sock, and so your edits cannot be permitted to stand for that reason.
I agree that the definition of the word genocide should be restricted for use in such cases as the Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenia, the Native Americans, etc. Things like Sabra-Shatila, horrendous as they were, are not genocide in my book, and it is disgraceful to call them such; if we had my way, most of the article would vanish. My understanding, however, is that this is not the way Wikipedia works. Given that we both have concerns, perhaps we can work together to chop the article down?
One unavoidable problem occurs right at the very outset: we are not allowed to impose our (correct and proper) interpretation of the Genocide Convention onto the article. That means there are inevitably going to be instances of "genocide" making their way into the article—Sabra-Shatila, for example—because a reliable source calls it "genocide". I cannot see anyway around this issue.
This being the case, my understanding is that the article should not seek to assert whether any particular contested case is genocide, but to indicate (with a reliable source) when the description has been used, provide (with a reliable source) the opposing view, and ideally indicate (with a good source) what the current majority view is. This will enable anyone who comes to the page to read both sides of the story
Anyway, until you get blocked or are vouchsafed, let's go through one at a time. Poland 1937–8 first? ColaXtra ( talk) 23:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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The article currently contains a couple of links to pages on thirdworldtraveler.com which copy extensively from copyrighted work. So, I think they fail WP:ELNEVER, so it may be a good idea to remove them now. The citation would still mention the original work by Stannard which thirdworldtraveler.com copied, so WP:V is still satisfied. bobrayner ( talk) 20:35, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
There is not any kind of debate genocide involving this country in scholarly literature. The sources cited in this article are not reliable, involving Robert Park, who is an activist rather than a scholar. There is an editorial involving Washington Post newspaper, but the use of this kind of source is naive. There should instead be reliable genocide scholarship arguing whether genocide has occurred. 76.232.253.235 ( talk) 22:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
The 19th century conquests by France and Russia both constitute genocides, claiming at least 1 million lives each through scorched earth policies. Don't they deserve a mention? Especially since the Algerian government has spoken of allegations of genocide against France before, and official Algerian figures claim 1.5 million killed in the 1954-1962, although France maintains 300,000 were killed. In any case it deserves a mention. If I recall there was a section about Algeria years ago but it got removed. Chechnya can be put just under the Circassian section. UltimateDarkloid ( talk) 01:06, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
According to the POV pushing IP, the Russian politician, Leonid Kalashnikov "is not" being used as a specialist.
It can be clearly seen that Leonid Kalashnikov's statement is being used as a source against Holodomor being a genocide.
So along with edit-warring the IP is also using unreliable sources to push his/her POV. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
02:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I removed comments by two persistent sockpuppet accounts that were not responded by other participants My very best wishes ( talk) 01:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
So I just added some sections on Ainu and the religious conflicts/ethnic cleansings. But events have to be labeled as genocide by RS and defined by the ICC in order to be added here, right? But isn't "denial" part of the genocide characteristics? Example, I saw in the Ainu people article that they were labeled as an extinct/dead group by Russia and Japan despite the fact that they have not died out. Isn't this denial related to the genocide-type of behavior conducted by the Russians and the Japanese against the ethnic minority? What about the indigenous peoples of the Americas? Weren't they "cleansed"/deported by the Spaniards/Europeans/American colonists? Is the fact that the US or other nations' silence on the "genocide" type of behavior in the things they did in the past the same as the denial characteristic of the nations/groups conducting the genocides? Countries/groups don't like to label events as genocides or "admit" it, do they? - M0rphzone ( talk) 23:10, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The German WW2 war crimes are in this article, but from looking at the talk archives, it doesn't seem anyone has discussed whether or not the Japanese war crimes in WW2 were genocides. Didn't they kill thousands of Chinese in the Nanking Massacre (says hundreds of thousands in the article), thousands of Filipinos and Americans in the Bataan Death March (says 2,500–10,000 Filipino and 300–650 Americans in the article), and thousands of Koreans and other people as well? The genocides committed by the Germans are already in this article, and it says that Germans mass killed Soviets/Soviet POWs, but what about from the other side: i.e., what about the Soviet mass killings of German POWs? Are the killings/deportations of Native Americans by US troops/government/colonists genocide? - M0rphzone ( talk) 23:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I did the math on my calculator (it is not exact because some sections don't include the number of people killed), but I got the total number of people killed from 1915-2000 to be about 39.1 million people. Do you think this is relevant to the entry or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.156.235 ( talk) 20:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC) ~~Words~~
I've removed an old POV-section template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
AND THE IMPERIAL ARMY GENOCIDES AGAINST CHINESE PEOPLE????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.222.27.249 ( talk) 19:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
The section on Sri Lanka is being repeatedly removed by editors whose excuse is that no RS claims genocide. They are deliberately ignoring the lead which states "The following list of genocides and alleged genocides should be understood in this context and cannot be regarded as the final word on these subjects." Numerous RS have been given for the allegations. There is no justification for the removal of the content.-- obi2canibe talk contr 20:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Non-RS sources are lobby groups like Global Tamil Forum, British Tamils Forum and the Canadian Tamil Congress who according to their mission statement seek to establish an independent state in Northern Sri Lanka called Tamil Eelam and their hired lawyers like Bruce Fein. The pamphlet referencing a Francis Boyle is just articles from Tamilnet a non-RS (for statements of act according to discussion in its talk page). Court cases that were dismissed again are not RS. Also statements from Canadian deportees for gang violations (the "refugee" issuing the claim in the source) is not RS. [4]
One of the sources PPT stated that there was not enough evidence for the claim 'genocide' according to the source in this passage itself.
And finally the the leaders of Tamil Nadu who have supported the LTTE in the past and some who still do are not RS. Karunandhi has come out as wanting a separate state called Tamil Eelam.
More tellingly, the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Crisis Watch, etc. -- neutral groups who have been critical of Sri Lanka's human rights records in no uncertain terms have not given credence to the claim of 'genocide' (which they have in actual cases of such) and prefer 'war crimes'. SinhaYugaya ( talk) 20:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I addressed both Fein (who is a hired lawyer for the Tamil advocacy group Tamils Against Genocide) and Boyle who's only sourced through Tamilnet articles. The Jurists don't make any conclusive judgement. SinhaYugaya ( talk) 11:05, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I think there are fairly obvious questions and answers here:
1) Can we say for sure that this was a genocide?
Answer: No, it's too debatable. But that's not our job anyway. The job of this page is to list genocide claims, not confirmed occurrences.
2) Are there enough sources to put the claim here?
Answer: Yes.
...but does the section need to be so long? No. A lot of the space in the section is just listing one Tamil advocacy group after another. Instead, they should all be grouped under one phrase and a number of different citations. The section is considerably inflated beyond the amount of space it should have, considering that all it's doing is listing one claimant after another with quotes.
--
Yalens (
talk)
02:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
This article is rather POV, as it mentions several mass murders who were in no way related to genocide. A severe clean up is needed here! For example, the Dirty War in Argentina, Zanzibar and Expulsion of Germans after World War II are despicable, but no deliberate attempt to kill off a specific group of people. The Banner talk 20:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)