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Since the start of September there have been 39 edits to the article. It has mostly been vandalism and reverts, with a couple of good faith edits that just weren't helpful. Given the high visibility of this article and the fact that it's frequently vandalised, I think it would be a good idea to semi-protect but I thought I'd ask for input on the talk page in case people think it's worth keeping editing open to everyone. Nev1 ( talk) 14:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't feed the trolls |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I don't know why there is this argument above about Genghis Khan being white. He was a Chinese National and this is a fact. I don't even think many of you on this discussion are even Chinese. It is due time to read the correct history from the Chinese perspective. We have been united as China for 5000 years, never divided. And never WHITE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.174.192.202 ( talk) 13:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
it's somewhat baffling to me why a Chinese national would advocate for the notion of Genghis as a chinaman , I was under the impression that the chinese wholeheartidly despised the mongols. However , I do agree with the OP that the section on Genghis Khan's birth is suggestively patchworked and ambiguous. The particular section - which references Rashid Al-din Hamadani's supposed statements about Genghis' glittering ancestors - doesn't sufficiently elaborate on exactly what ethnicity Genghis Khan could have been. Kyrg is inadequate as much of their ethnic makeup is the result of mixing (via concubines perhaps) between the Mongols and whatever caucasian ethnicities were unfortunately in the geographic line of the Mongol campaign. We have all been able to agree thus far on one point , that Genghis Khan was a Mongol. However , it seems that some people want to make a play on what exactly constitutes a Mongolian. I'm not implicating either Siafu or Yaan here , but quoting statements about the glittering ancestors of Genghis in such a clustered and disorganized fashion without explaining upon it adequately is dubious and will only lead to outrageous discussions and controversy. Whoever is responsible for that particular section based on Rashid Al-din Hamadani's supposed statements about Genghis Khan's ancestors needs to clarify and elaborate further upon the possible meaning of those statements. The particular editor in question needs to build upon those statements. Since we've agreed that Genghis Khan was a Mongol ... Here's are some central follow up questions .... Were the original Mongols (before the unification and the concubine campaigns) of an exclusive ethnic group that was homogenous such as the Chinese were and was Genghis Khan simply a Mongoloid with red hair ? Were the original Mongols an actual founding and homogenous ethnic group with deep ethnic roots via ancestor worship - as the japanese , koreans , chinese - or rather was the term Mongol more superficial as in a situation where it is simply a term adopted by a gang composed of mixed ethnic people that simply identified themselves as " Mongols " similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols_(motorcycle_club) ? Maybe the mongoloids of asia aren't really " mongoloid " ... In addition to this there needs to be more collaborative work on the presence of the actual ancestral line of Genghis Khan in this article. Wernergerman ( talk) 15:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC) |
Dont feed trolls,, dont react to their provocking Monkh Naran ( talk) 01:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
When Genghis Khan became obssesed with the Khwarezmian Empire. I don't get it. Why will the persians and Khwarezmians destroy genghis khan diplomats. But the invasion was just revenge of avenging his caravan and envoys.
A 200,000 force marched to Modern Uzbekistan and took it. They just marched there and took. Did the Khwarezmians just give it do the Mongols by running south? Then Genghis Khan thinks that Khwarezmia is just giving him their land. But even though he won the march and raid into the land, he was still wrong. Eventually his armies reached Urgench and just ran through it and burned and sacked it to the ground. Then he just fought and wiped out region after region in the Khwarezmian Empire.
The Shah had no matter in the invasion and fled west until his empire was added to the Mongol Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esamhk12 ( talk • contribs) 22:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Was he born c.1162 or in 1162? Both dates are mentioned in the article and should be reconciled. Caeruleancentaur ( talk) 18:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
It's just not known exactly. Most commonly, 1155, 1162 and 1167 are thought to be possible birth years, with 1162 being the most likely one. Yaan ( talk) 13:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I believed the changes I made on Oct. 30, 2010 were self-explanatory but since an explanation for each component was demanded, here they are:
ContinentalAve ( talk) 17:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
![]() | The examples and perspective in this section may not
include all significant viewpoints. (November 2010) |
![]() | This section contains
weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies
biased or
unverifiable information. (November 2010) |
" No accurate portraits of Genghis exist today, and any surviving depictions are considered to be artistic interpretations. Persian historian Rashid-al-Din recorded in his "Chronicles" that the legendary "glittering" ancestor of Genghis was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and green-eyed. Rashid al-Din also described the first meeting of Genghis and Kublai Khan, when Genghis was shocked to find that Kublai had not inherited his red hair.[10] Also according to al-Din Genghis's Borjigid clan, had a legend involving their origins: it began as the result of an affair between Alan-ko and a stranger to her land, a glittering man who happened to have red hair and bluish-green eyes. Modern historian Paul Ratchnevsky has suggested in his Genghis biography that the "glittering man" may have been from the Kyrgyz people, who historically displayed these same characteristics. Controversies aside, the closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan (see picture above).[citation needed] "
This section ,
- gives undue emphasis on one point of view that has its supposed basis soley on one source.
- it's not clear exactly what that " point of view " is because it's not clear what the contributing editor is arguing for here. He or she needs to elaborate upon those supposed quotes by Rashid Al-din Hamadani instead of just randomly pasting various statements belonging to him without any subsequent explanation whatsoever - at the moment it seems that this contributing editor just wants us to explore the remote possibility that Genghis Khan was anything other than a Mongoloid ... if he indeed was of mixed ethnicity , then elaboration upon this POV is required as it goes against the prevalent POV of Genghis Khan being a " pure-blooded " Mongoloid. In other words , just implying that Genghis Khan was of mixed ethnic background invites controversy , the editor needs to be specific in exactly what he or she means.
Also , there's too much of a play on the terms " mongolian " and Mongol. There are Mongolians that are the root ethnic peoples of Mongolia and then there are Mongols who joined or became forcibly integrated during the campaign. It would be helpful if the author would explain whether he or she believes that the original birth existence of Genghis Khan took place within that of an organized gang ( such as the " Mongols " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols_(motorcycle_club) ) or within a homogenous ethnic group such as the " Mongoloid " Japanese , Chinese , Koreans , as such pertains to the popular perception of Mongolians http://cominganarchy.com/2005/11/21/bush-in-mongolia-ii/ ...
Wernergerman ( talk) 18:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to wait a bit before delving in this discussion , in case others want to contribute. From my experience so far , it isn't going to be many... not too many people seem to be interested in the topic of Genghis Khan. As for now , some of what you mentioned seems more on the side of an opinion to me and definitely subject to debate ... and not necessarily your opinion by the way , for example , Alan Goa being the ancestor of all Mongol tribes. Seems along the lines of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_blood_theory_in_Korea
others
" AFAIK there are only two important primary sources about Genghis Khan's ancestors "
again , definitely subject to debate .
I would be very interested to hear what an actual Mongolian has to say about this matter , not a Mongol (which seems to habitually be used as a loanword) ... I for one don't believe that the Mongols are simply comprised of a sudden gathering and intermixing between ethnic groups , I believe that they all source from a root ethnic group that were frontrunners of the campaign (the nobility , that is) and that root identity is obviously Mongoloid. Thus the particular usage of the term " Mongoloid " and why it has been denoted towards Asiatics. Turkic peoples will vehemently argue that the original roots of the Mongolians source from the Slavic Turks , however , this is obviously debatable since
- there are no pure Turks that belong to the Mongolian ethnic group , that is no such thing as a pure caucasian Mongol ... period. However , the majority of the people within Mongolia are distinctly Mongoloid or East Asiatic. There are pure " Mongoloid " Mongols however there are no pure Caucasian Mongols.
- In fact , all Mongols , that is all of the people that have historical connections to the Mongol movement , have Mongoloid features. There is only one way that this can happen , that is by mixing with a Mongoloid , Mongoloid features are impossible to mimic in other races.
- the Turks are a minority in Mongolia
- there are other obvious arguments , but I'll cease here.
Again , this article needs to have other points of views about this matter , for instance an explanation of genghis khan's appearance as relevant to the one displayed in the main picture is noticeably absent. And again , the contributor of that particular content of information about Genghis' glittering ancestors needs to actually explain further on Al-din's statements in a specific fashion , instead of just pasting quotations and relying on the reader's imagination. Wernergerman ( talk) 21:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
So , what ... the section is going to remain as it is?
" No accurate portraits of Genghis exist today, and any surviving depictions are considered to be artistic interpretations. Persian historian Rashid-al-Din recorded in his "Chronicles" that the legendary "glittering" ancestor of Genghis was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and green-eyed. Rashid al-Din also described the first meeting of Genghis and Kublai Khan, when Genghis was shocked to find that Kublai had not inherited his red hair.[10] Also according to al-Din Genghis's Borjigid clan, had a legend involving their origins: it began as the result of an affair between Alan-ko and a stranger to her land, a glittering man who happened to have red hair and bluish-green eyes. Modern historian Paul Ratchnevsky has suggested in his Genghis biography that the "glittering man" may have been from the Kyrgyz people, who historically displayed these same characteristics. Controversies aside, the closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan (see picture above).[citation needed] "
What on earth exactly is this section implicating? I'm asking that either the contributing editor or some other qualified individual explain and elaborate , otherwise it is merely comprised of random ill-placed quotations... Do you believe that this is adequate? I for one could come up with several different explanations on the meaning of the passage ...
- genghis khan was a red haired mongolian of mongoloid lineage.
- genghis khan was tocharian and was caucasian , a very small percentage of stormfront idiots (yes they actually had a poll about this) believe that he was caucasian ... little do they realize that they are taking the blood that's on others hands and taking it up as their own.
- genghis khan had a little bit of slavic blood , however was mostly mongoloid.
- genghis khan was of a half breed caucasian/mongoloid.
What is that passage implying ? Answers should be backed by credible mainstream sources and not one that's obscure. The current state of the passage is inadequate ... even if it consists of one perspective which is albeit not very prominent it should be composed of as an actual article and not just as some pasted statements as if a 4th grader wrote it. I plan on contributing to it by stating some opposing arguments in the future , in the meanwhile , someone has to expand upon the meaning of all of those statements. If the contributing editor believes that genghis khan was tocharian then be a grown man about it and just state it ... don't hide behind randomly pasted statements as a kindergartner would do. The intent of this article is not to be speculative , wikipedia is not a place to suggest ideas. Again , state what you mean , and state it firmly and then back it up with credible and mainstream sources. Don't be feeble about it. If the contributing editor isn't able to attend to these requirements , then don't state such things at all.
Wernergerman (
talk)
20:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
What's the problem here? Here's the problem. You're making it out to seem that soley two credible statements about Genghis Khan's appearance within the entire universe itself as we know it draw from one source that stems from outside of Mongolia itself -note that there aren't any portions of the wikipedia Births section that draw from the Secret History. There are ALWAYS other sources... no matter what subject in relevance. In fact , there are numerous written statements or pictures within Al-din's book that either refer to or imply Genghis Khan's appearance in the same way as these two statements. You're being real selective , in a biased fashion , about the information that you deem to be credible when there are other sources out there that claim his appearance in the same fashion as Al-din's book does. For some reason , the majority of Mongolian accounts (which exist in numerous amounts) are discredited. You deem Ratchnevsky as being credible when there are many others that have written similar books and were well researched in the formal sense. There are other sources out there that directly state the ethnicity and physical appearance of Genghis Khan in a bold fashion however you claim that the entirety of this man's existence is reduced to these two feeble statements that are unclear and then you don't even bother to explain upon them ... Genghis Khan might have well not even existed... It's not appropriate in any forum of discussion or formats of article construction to merely paste quotations and not explain your perspective that's based on those quotations. It's simply not appropriate.
Stand behind your statements , be firm about it , state who he really was .... if I were to go to Mongolia right now I bet that I could find numerous sources on his appearance that stem from his time period that boldly and firmly state his ethnicity and appearance . However these sources would not be deemed credible here since they aren't of Western origin. Julius Caesar has his appearance based on a Roman historian ... because he was Roman. Why aren't we drawing from Mongolian sources to describe a Mongolian man's appearance. Why is it that all Mongolian accounts besides the Secret History are not deemed credible?
This is supposed to be a factual article and is not meant to be speculative or a place for original research. soley pasting statements and having others infer from it invites speculation.
1) The following passage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_khan#Birth doesn't draw at all from anything else other than those two statements within Al-din's book. In fact , it doesn't even mention that all of the pictures , whether of old or new versions of the text , depict genghis khan with black hair and mongoloid features. Why isn't this part about his appearance mentioned in the particular section that we're discussing at the moment ? There are numerous accounts of Genghis Khan's appearance in Al-din's book , whether of written or pictorial form , however , the book was written as a part epic and part historical manuscript. Not all of it is to be taken literally. What this Births section does is draw entirely soley from those two statements (of the validity which I have yet to prove) and not the other accounts within the same book. Again , this is an opportunity for other perspectives to be presented and yet you selectively disregard them with bias even if they are in the same book. Don't even go on about how some statements are more credible than others or on how other people had painted the paintings. Al-din directed the paintings and there are times when others wrote the book for him. However , the book itself in its entirety is credited to him , so picking it apart isn't permitted here. You're being biased , just admit it.
2) Why aren't there any portions of the Births sections that draw from the Secret History or Mongolian sources ? The Secret History does describe Genghis' appearance , in fact , there are numerous other Mongolian sources that describe Genghis' appearance either in written form or paintings or of statues and etchings on the mountain side ... why does this article obliviat this fact? the wikipedia source on Julius Caesar cites a Roman historian in describing a Roman figure , there are numerous Mongolians that describe Genghis Khan however their credibility is questioned since most historians deem the Mongolians as habitual criminals. I could ask this question over and over again... why are we entrusting the existence of Genghis Khan to an outside source and that of a Jewish man whom everyone knows had the bad tendency to skew facts in to epic? Why does a Jewish man qualify for Genghis Khan when a Roman man is for Julius Caesar? When a future article on Hitler is written , will we draw upon Mongolian sources or German sources? Seems very skewed and awkward to me.
So again , the list for the project is as follows so far - will be updated in the future
- current passage on the Births section needs to be explained further , simply pasting quotations from the source does not qualify for any standard format of writing that exists out there. You're not being bold here , that's another problem. State who he really was , and if such statements don't exist in your world then don't state anything at all. Be bold or go home.
- sources from the Secret History must be cited (don't tell me that there are none because there are)
- alternative perspectives must be included ... again don't say that there are none , the picture of Genghis Khan here on the article itself counts as one. there are ALWAYS alternative perspectives , no matter what subject . the current version is way too simplistic , it needs improvements , the list goes on.
Wernergerman ( talk) 23:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Good point siafu , I'm going to be making some good edits in the future based on actual sources. This man is from the east and the one source that is deemed credible by both you and yaan is the western text of Rashid Aldin's book Chronicles. This book was written to unify the Mongolian empire , particularly within the western hemisphere , to quell dissent for the most part so as to maintain a relatively stable empire.
'Note however, the apparent glitches within some of Rashid Aldin Hamadani's statements , in particular , where he describes Genghis being shocked that Kublai didn't inherit his red hair. '
- Just how heritable is red hair? Red hair is only inherited when both parents have red hair and even in this situation the chances are small that the offspring will inherit red hair. How does a red haired man who fathered millions of children in his lifetime not know that red hair isn't inherited easily? Why is he shocked that his son didn't inherit his red hair ? This particular statement by Aldin seems completely nonsensical and it seems demeaning if not insignificant. Shouldn't Rashid Aldin , who was of Jewish origin and in the western hemisphere have known that Red hair isn't easily heritable for any ethnic group? Especially when the father has red hair and the mother is a Mongoloid? With interracial marriages between caucasians and mongoloids , red hair is almost never inherited ...
If Genghis Khan had red hair he would have known that his son wouldn't have inherited his red hair since he had already fathered millions of children by this time. so how was he so utterly surprised that his son Kublai did not inherit his red hair? This statement may seem plausible for a Mongoloid in China however , with a caucasoid , it seems non-sensical that Genghis would be surprised that his red hair wasn't inherited with a child that he had with his Mongoloid wife.
Rashid Aldin was commissioned to write his book the way the Khans wanted it ... the purpose of the book was to unify the Mongol empire. The political purpose of the book was to help the Khans to remain in power. It became easier for people of that region to respect a man who had unique features such as red hair as opposed to a man who had mongoloid features. Aldin was commissioned to write the book in a way so that the people would hold the Mongols and Genghis Khan in good regard and so he altered Genghis Khan's appearance ... HOWEVER .... he did so cunningly , because he did not want to be historically inaccurate.
so he presented Genghis Khan as an epic figure with Red hair that would go well with groups that didn't know anything about the heritability of red hair , however he added that Genghis was shocked so that this statement would apparently be dubious to groups who knew about the heritability of red hair and thus groups who knew that Genghis should have known that his red hair wasn't easily heritable especially when he had fathered millions of offspring ... that is .... should he have actually had red hair.
More to come. Wernergerman ( talk) 00:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
You haven't answered any of my questions and your points (1 and 2) completely disregard information that's already out there ...
For the first point that you made , you should be able to visit the link here if you're truly that oblivious of Genghis Khan's reputation with women
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html
even should Genghis have had four children he should have known about the non-heritability of red hair .
To address your second point , individuals didn't need to master the work of Gregor Mendel to come to the realization that the trait of red hair was rare , so rare that even the offspring of two parents with red hair has a minor chance of inheriting the red hair. what matters here is the truth that red hair is a relatively non-heritable trait , and relatively speaking to other types of hair ... it's almost never inherited.
I don't really have a " beef " with that paragraph , I find that particular paragraph in question to be conspicuously awkward especially since it's suggesting that a statement that is obviously epic in form is literally true . Also , why on earth is wikipedia emphasizing the notion that Genghis had red hair and emphasizing this notion alone and not the prevalent one where he has black hair?
For those of you that are fretting - or perhaps working up some excitement - over Rashid Aldin Hamadani's references to what seems to be caucasoid ancestors of Genghis Khan should note that all of his statements aren't meant to be taken literally . There are some out there e.g. Earlson that are distorting statements that are actually epic in origin into something to be taken literally. The Chronicles is part epic and part historical , when Rashid Aldin meant for a statement to be taken in an epic sense , he employed Jewish forms of writing from his earlier training as a Jew. Take for example , his statement " Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair " ... there are some blatant flaws with it that need to be addressed should one want to take it literally :
- red haired people don't expect their offspring to inherit red hair , red hair is one of the least heritable traits out there. They certainly wouldn't be shocked over it , unless the individual is a lunatic , because it make no sense for anyone to even want their son to inherit their red hair that badly.
- Genghis fathered more children than any other individual in history. Thus , if he had red hair , he would have known that red hair isn't inherited easily. Thus he wouldn't have expected his son Kublai to have inherited his red hair ; this is in direct contradiction to what Rashid Aldin claimed to have happened - that Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair.
- Genghis being " shocked " seems out of character for a man of his stature. Genghis drew upon his information masterfully , so it matters little whether he had red hair or not , the bottom line is that he wouldn't have been overwhelmed by a matter so trivial and obvious as that of red hair.
So it matters very little whether Rashid Aldin claimed that Genghis' ancestors were glittering or whether Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair ... because none of it happened , Rashid Aldin was writing in an epic manner , a fact which is obvious when his statements don't fit the standards of something that was meant to be taken literally. Genghis was not shocked , and his ancestors were not actually " glittering " .
Again , I have much more to bring up , this entire argument is just one piece of the pie , meaning that there are many other simple ways to attack and discredit the notion that Genghis Khan had red hair or was part Caucasoid.
Wernergerman (
talk)
23:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Kublai was his Grandson, not his son.
In the section "uniting the confederations" it says
However, on the wikipedia page about Kerait, the year is given as 1183. That also seems more plausible in light of the timeline of the ascend of Genghis Khan. Can an expert confirm this and correct if necessary? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexbar ( talk • contribs) 04:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
he was not a chief, that is why he had to kidnap hoelun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.97.0 ( talk) 18:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
See The Secret History of the Monghol Queens: How the Daughters of Genghis Khan Rescued His Empire by Jack Weatherford Gwytherinn ( talk) 00:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
It's not surprising to see white historians try to claim an Asian figure that changed the world as white. If anything this just illustrates the need for Asians to take control of telling the history of their heritage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.158.114 ( talk) 12:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Genghis Khan is 100% Asian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.134.194 ( talk) 09:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC) ( I really do not know why people really do consider the race or the color of the skin.... He was a HUMAN and he had just believed in himself and that's it... I was very very lucky to be born as a MONGOLIAN) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nerguich ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
1) His family/tribe name is Borjigin. In modern Turkish, this word means "Blue eyes", and in Mongol, it means gray eyes. However, according to "Compendium of history" that include an autography of biography of Borjigin family written by senior Persian officers of Mongol Empire, the author clearly indicated the word Borjigin come from Turkish that means "blue eyes". 2) According to "Secret history of Mongols", also written as official book of Mongol Empire, Borjigin is the name of an direct ancestor of Genghis Khan, who has blue eyes, "he has another name which means "silly guy". This person is the fourth son of his mother, who was born after her husband was dead. According to the book, when her other sons questioned the father of Borjigin, as an attempt to oust of his right of inheriting family's property, their mother answered, the son come from a "man-like-god" with "golden hairs" that came to her tent and mate her. IMO, it is likely an attempt to describe her love affair with an person with blond hair and blue eyes as an holy thing in order to protect his fourth son with similar characters. Therefore, the direct ancestor of Genghis Khan, Borjigin's father should be a Caucasian. 3) In the book “notandum for Mongol-Tartar”, written by a Chinese ambassador who met Genghis Khan, the author described face feature of the Tartars, which is extremely similar to modern Mongolians. However, he noted, The face feature of Genghis Khan is completely different from the others Mongol-Tartars, that seem to support the idea Genghis Khan himself might have a root of Caucasians, but his slaves/followers in his original tribe are much more similar to modern Mongols. Mongol is an tribe that contains slaves and masters. According to "Secrete history of Mongols", the slaves and their masters have different roots and even among the nobles, there might be different roots, e.x. Borjigin clearly have different roots from others. 4) I lost my memory about where this source come from, but I remember, Genghis Khan allegedly said the feature of his grandson, Kublai, did not show resemblance of his family, but of the mother of Kublai. He said the skin of Kublai was much darker among other dissimilarities. According to his portrait that available today, Kublai's had a typical face that we can see among modern Mongolians. Hisfun ( talk) 13:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Рашид ад-Дин. Сборник летописей / Пер. с персидского О. И. Смирновой,редакция проф. А. А. Семенова. — М., Л.: Издательство Академии Наук СССР, 1952
Alan Qoa's "glittering man" was not Kyrgyz nor was he blond haired and blue eyed. I highly suggest revising this there is no evidence its just speculation. Glittering man was a metaphor and is more symbolic/mythic than anything. As written in the Secret History of the Mongols, the most likely speculation with most evidence is the Bayad family servant Alan Qoa's husband adopted. Alan Qoa's sons even speculated that this Bayad(Mongol) man was the most likely father. Who here has proof that there was a random Kyrgyz or non-Mongol man walking around her pastures with her sons in the middle of Mongolia. Rash's claims are very biased but even if he happened to have a red tinge to his beard his Bayad ancestor is just as likely to have contributed than a Kyrgyz or divine messenger. I hope that people with actual editing rights have actually read the Secret History of the Mongols. I can't understand how anyone could take Rash's work seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.63.254 ( talk) 20:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
TO SAY THAT GENGHIS KHAN OR THE MONGOLS WERE ORIGINALLY CAUCASIAN IS AS FAR FETCHED AS IT GETS
As mentioned before numerous amounts of times (one of the editors here seems to have erased my contributions completely) , references to Rashid Aldin Hamadani's statements don't count as a literal source. In other words there was no such " glittering " man and Genghis Khan was certainly not " shocked " to find that his son didn't have red hair - red haired people don't get shocked when their children don't inherit their red hair because they don't even expect them to inherit it (recessive mutation - very unlikely that red hair is passed on) , Genghis should he have been a man with red hair would have known about the heritability of red hair since he fathered a lot of children. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html
Also note that the people in power within Mongolia are all of plain Mongoloid features , there's no telling them apart from the Chinese or other asiatics. Mongolians are Mongoloids or asiatics so to speak , if you want to change the notion of the Genghis Khan's ethnicity you'll need to alter the ethnic makeup of Mongols. I've noticed that this has already taken place in Wikipedia , Mongols , according to Wikipedia , are no longer the majority of East Asian people who reside and have lived in Mongolia , but mostly a race of mixed individuals outside of Mongolia itself who actually have expressed no desire to be labeled as Mongols. To say that Mongols were originally caucasian is as far fetched as it gets , especially when descriptions of Mongol appearance by ALL accounts (be it that they were caucasian or persian) were that they were grotesque , slant , larged headed , small stature.
Germans , Russians , people from Finland , Norwegians , Central Europeans , Slavics have East Asian DNA
All of the countries that were affected by Mongol invasions have been contaminated with East Asian DNA.
http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm . Heck even Rashid Aldin's text has all of people in the paintings with Mongoloid features.
East asians don't even have traces of caucasian DNA
China was raided more than any other country by the Mongols and yet none of them possess even traces of caucasian DNA. So how is it that Mongols were originally caucasoid , should they have been caucasoid then people of Chinese descent would reportedly have caucasian DNA ... just as we would expect Europeans to have East Asian DNA should the original Mongols be of East Asian ancestry and this is exactly what we find with modern day DNA tests.
Hisfun ( talk) 14:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm
Do I need to say more? To say that caucasians orginated the Mongol territory is far fetched. It can be dispelled with common sense. Even the so called " tocharian mummy " was a mix of genes from Europe, Mesopotamia, Central Asia, Mongolia, India, and Siberia. The composition of Europoid content was very little compared to East Asian genetic content and the presence of all of these other ethnic dna content is due to the fact that Xinjiang was a crossroad trade location.
WHO ARE THE ADVOCATES FOR THE ETHNIC ALTERATION OF GENGHIS KHAN AND WHAT ARE THEIR MOTIVATIONS?
It's pretty obvious where all of these distortions of Genghis Khan's ethnicity is coming from. It's from people who call themselves the " white people " , the slow alteration of Genghis Khan's ethnicity is part of a campaign to add significance and to make sense to the made up notion of a " white history " .
It's all a small but successive accumulation of mongrel creations. One white lie after another. Once established , this " white history " becomes an equalizing factor within the caucasian community , where picts are no longer " white slaves " but equal with the Nordics. The schemes goes something like this
Genghis Khan is part Nordic --> Genghis Khan was " white " --> His greatness is attributed to the fact that he was " white " or part " white " --> Picts are " white " (nevermind everything else) --> " white people " privilges have now substantially increased due to Genghis Khan
Please , please open up your own ancestry book instead of mongreling around in the affairs of countries that are at the other side of the world.
Wernergerman ( talk) 17:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well "golden family" means "important family" or something like that, it does not refer to hair color. Also, even if there was a blond ancestor of Genghis Khan, this hair color would have completely disappeared after a couple of generations. Temur ( talk) 00:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
All contemporary paintings of the Mongols (especially from the Islamic world) depict the Mongols with Asian looks. The idea that Genghis Khan was white seems pretty far-fetched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.8.140.235 ( talk) 19:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Khan appeared in the film Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure. This should be listed under film.
Stevenellingson ( talk) 19:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Did you not know who I was talking about? It would have taken about as long to make the edit as it did to make your condescending response! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenellingson ( talk • contribs) 16:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I get it. But if I went to Henry VIII's page, and said that "King" played a prominent role in an American classic film, it would have gotten listed on his page. Stevenellingson ( talk) 21:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
STU SMITH ISNT REAL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhwinkgirl ( talk • contribs) 05:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like to know about meaning of the word Qinggiz/Chenggiz/Genghis? What does it mean? Every body knows Khan means king. I know when he was born his name is not Genggiz. Is Qinggiz Monggolian, Turkish, or Uyghur word? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.76.161.198 ( talk) 14:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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In addition to pop culture, Genghis Khan is portrayed as a Pokemon, Kangaskhan. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Kangaskhan_(Pokémon)
BurderBurd ( talk) 00:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
"The invasions of Baghdad, Samarkand, Urgench, Kiev, Vladimir among others caused mass murders, such as when portions of southern Khuzestan were completely destroyed. His descendant, Hulagu Khan destroyed much of Iran's northern part and sacked Baghdad although his forces were halted by the Mamluks of Egypt. According to the works of the Persian historian Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, the Mongols killed more than 70 million people in Merv and more than 190 million in Nishapur. In 1237 Batu Khan, a grandson of Genghis Khan, launched an invasion into Kievan Rus'. Over the course of three years, the Mongols destroyed and annihilated all of the major cities of Eastern Europe with the exceptions of Novgorod and Pskov."
70 million in Merv and 190 million in Nishapur? Wow this just goes to show you how unreliable and preposterous wikipedia can be. Really now? 190 million people was probably half the population of the world during this time. How can wikipedia be taken seriously when they allow such non-sense like this to be displayed? And I wondered why my history professor was so strict against using wikipedia as a legitimate source, I understand completely now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.150.78 ( talk) 19:36, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Why is it that we even argue about Genghis being part Nordic when we all know that he was an essential agent in organizing the Mongol movement - a sequence of important events with each event effectively serving the purpose of eliminating Nordic expansion to the East and then pushing the Asiatic territorial possession to the West ... a race war.
1) Cease the Nordic expansion into Russia - bury the Nordic princes and have dinner right above the buried site with his Mongol compatriots . The Nordics were gaining control of Russia over the Slavs. It's a fact that without the Mongol movement , Russia may have been composed mostly of Nordics/Germans.
2) Enslave the Slavs , build a war machine e.g. " The Mongol Yoke "
3) Racially modify to the West - the " pushing " of East Asian genes to the west - according to recent research some parts of China were once composed of Caucasoids , however , as of this point even the Germans have been injected with East Asian DNA http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm
4) Increase the prevalence of East Asian DNA in the world over Nordic ones.
So is there an essential point in claiming that Genghis Khan was part Nordic? How can that be made significant since the entirety of the Mongol movement itself was a hellbent race war for the spread of East Asian genes at the cost of Nordic genes? Calmly ask yourself the following questions :
- How insane is it that a Nordic man would facilitate a race war against the Nordics ?
- How insane is it that East Asians , who practice ancestry worship , would be so inspired by a Caucasian Genghis so as to unite because of him when all of the contemporary examples of war in East Asia were fought by East Asians for the sole purpose of Asian supremacy and Asian defense ?
LMAO , a Nordic man slaying Nordic princes and then commanding East Asians to claim Western lands for East Asian offspring by raping German women. Just how degenerately sad and lackadaisical have some of us become with respect to ancestry that we prey on the ancestry of others and make up our own - all for the sake of enjoying a little bit of delusional euphoria induced by rewriting history the way we want it to be?
The prevalence of Eurasians , the traces of East Asian DNA in the Deutch , the anger towards East Asians and suspicions that the rape of German women resulted in some children being born with East Asian characteristics ... Europeans have been cornered genetically speaking by his campaigns , East Asians control and surround the heartland .... The Mongol movement was an anti-Nordic movement. There's no point in even saying that Genghis was Nordic because we all know in the definitive sense what the Mongol movement actually was - a movement that was undeniably not Nordic.
Again , the Mongol movement was a sequence of important events with each event effectively serving the purpose of eliminating Nordic expansion to the East and then pushing the Asiatic territorial possession to the West ... a race war. The Mongol movement is what's significant . Genghis could have been a 7 year old blonde pig tailed German girl and it wouldn't matter because the Mongol movement was effectively an anti-Nordic campaign.
Please erase the ridiculous remarks about Genghis having red hair and of his " glittering " ancestors. Genghis didn't have red hair and he wasn't surprised to find that Kublai didn't inherit it because red haired people don't expect their sons , or anyone else for that matter , to inherit red hair. Red hair isn't inherited easily.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
There is only one reason we argue about this and that is that you keep bringing it up. There is absolutely no one here, except for you, who has suggested that Genghis Khan was anything other than a Mongol. siafu ( talk) 16:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Why is it that we even argue about Genghis being part Nordic...
And yet the births section of the wikipedia article has seemingly been dedicated towards attributing Genghis with caucasoid features. Why are all of the descriptions of him as a Caucasian still there? Especially when Aldin's statements are contradictory? Just to clear things up , is this what you meant by a " Mongol " ? Is your definition of a Mongolian someone whos part Caucasoid? I'm just asking because the wikipedia article on the Mongols seems to have been altered and skewed to portray the Mongols as part Caucasoid.
The Mongolians - the majority of the people who actually reside in the country of Mongolia and the members of the Mongolian government - are pretty clear on their race as well as the race of Genghis ... as simply East Asiatic . But they obviously don't know what they're talking about right? Because according to you they're actually part caucasians ... I mean despite the fact that they appear exactly like other Asians e.g. Japanese , Korean , Chinese. Would you appreciate it if a foreign group of a distinctly separate ethnicity , who obviously have no business in meddling in your ancestry , were spreading propagandas about your ethnicity e.g. Scottish are Africanoid , with the intent of altering it for the sake of serving their own delusional campaigns and fantasies? I'm sure that such an intrusive and mongrel endeavor would irk you ... somewhat , wouldn't it?
A Nordic man leading a race war against Nordics for the Asians. A Nordic man kills his own kind in order to help spread Asian genes all across Europe. Pure insanity. Again , the importance of Genghis Khan pales in comparison to the Mongol movement , a movement that was responsible for literally murdering Europe while it was still in its crib. You can play around with Genghis' ethnicity as much as you like , but the Mongol movement itself is in the definitive sense - anti-Nordic.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The lede was an absolute disaster of clutter, so I moved everything to the infobox. Now the infobox is cluttered, but I'll leave that to the people here. Generally when we have vital info, but which the reader doesn't need to know up front, or which the infobox does not accommodate well, we used <ref group="Note">
to move it to a note section at the bottom of the article, but kept separate from generic footnotes. If you need to add footnotes to the notes, instead use {{#tag:ref||group="note"}}
, which is available in your 'Wiki markup' edit window. —
kwami (
talk)
10:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Restored the reference, as in the context of the film he's one of the more important characters - he's (obviously) one of the borrowed historical figures, his actions - where he adapts modern sporting goods into armour & weapons - are a major contributor to him and the rest of the group being arrested and locked up. He also assists in the kidnap of George Washington, and finally, he loves Twinkies, because of the excellent sugar rush they provide.
My grounds for inclusion is always "would the plot deviate should a character be removed?" and in this case - yes it would, or at the very least another character would need to provide the actions of Khan instead of Khan himself - such as going berzerk in the store, or kidnapping Washington. a_man_alone ( talk) 15:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aomori#Tomb_of_Jesus_Christ
Jesus didn't actually go to the cross , his Japanese brother was crucified while Jesus enjoyed his life in Japan. So sayeth some Japanese apparently.
So which of the following articles is more insane?
A Japanese brother of Jesus Christ doing the honor of being crucified for Jesus Christ while Jesus Christ gets all the credit.
or
A caucasian man , so aptly described as Genghis Khan in this wikipedia article , with red hair amongst other things (Nordic) seeks to cease the Nordic invasion of Russia , enslaves Russians with the Mongol yoke , and then genetically spreads Asiatic genes in lands that once belonged to caucasoids. Yes folks , these three events actually happened. Genghis Khan was the central agent in organizing the Mongol movement which was effectively an anti-nordic movement in favor spreading Asiatic genes at the cost of Nordic ones. Yet , according to this article , he was Nordic. How insane is it that a Nordic man seeks to endow caucasian lands with asian genes even at the cost of genocide of the Nordic , the Nordic noble princes , and the caucasian slavs of Russia. How insane is it to even imagine that a Nordic or even a partly caucasian man had a dinner table filled with Asiatics and ate , drank , celebrated ... on a dinner table that was set right above the Nordic princes who were buried without being injured or killed and were perishing all the while this caucasoid Genghis Khan celebrated with the Asians above their incapsulated realm of darkness and misery?
So what's the utmost credible source that was selected by the lovely wikipedia editor who inserted this rather insane statement about a caucasoid genghis khan ? Here it is , it's a historian by the name of Rashid Aldin - an ethnically Jewish historian with Jewish training in writing who frequenlty had the habit of employing a partly epic storytelling fashion (a fashion meant to captivate the reader at the cost of portraying truth accurately) . He had written , in an epic fashion , that an aged Genghis Khan , a red haired man supposedly , was surprised to find that his son Kublai Khan didn't inherit his red hair. The wikipedia editor that's in question here has instead taken it all literally , to include it in his/her revisionist version of history , at the cost of bastardizing the ancestry of the Mongolians.
Genghis Khan fathered more children then anyone else in history , and yet , a red haired man with lots and lots of children doesn't know that red hair isn't inherited very well. LMAO and INSANITY.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes clearly it's insane and bias, since all the mongolians with light hair and eyes with varieties of colors all look completely asiatic. How come the wikipedia editor doesn't have the guts to mention this? instead of misleading everyone like he was an caucasian man. Here check out the mongols with 100% asiatic/mongoloid face with red hair,blue eyes, green eyes,blonde hair...whatever you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:31 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Rashid al Din is considered an insider in the Mongol Empire's bureaucracy who would have personally known Kublai Khan's brothers, Hulegu and Mongke. You act like Rashid al Din is some Goldhagen guy at Harvard, trying to make a name for himself in the 21st century by writing some inflamatory revisionist piece of tripe. Good try, buddy. Juzjani is a Northern Indian historian who saw Genghis Khan face to face. Maybe you should check out what he said in his Tabaqat i Nasri written during Genghis Khan's lifetime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.159.210 ( talk) 05:21, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
So is that an good excuse to mislead everyone into thinking he's caucasian? when his dna haplgroup ancestry is proven to C3, this an mongoloid paternal marker. Also...why didn't the wiki editors have the guts to mention the 100% asiatic/mongoloid face with red hair,blue eyes, green eyes,blonde hair? The editing sound so misleading...sorry to break your dream of genghis khan being an aryan when you watch this video...youl all the mongolians inherit such traits today look like mongoloid people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY - WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:34 15 September 2011 (UTC)
=====What is this video supposed to show? Its common sense, and accepted that asian people do not have light eyes and hair, it is not natural occuring in their race UNLESS their are white ancestors for those people, thousand of years ago. The Tocharians and Yuezhi, as well as the Cumans all had caucasian features - they were caucasian (Iranic) and lived in the area inhabitted by chinese and mongols, so it is petty logical to figure that they would have mixed and left their genes among the people. What is so difficult to understand. It is difficult for people who are nationalistic or racist to understand. Go read up carefully on the history of caucasian presence in these areas. Also, these people in the video could have mixed with Russians or Cumans long ago, when the Russian empire existed. So it is possible that Genghis Khan had caucasian features, since the caucasian nations which I mentioned inhabitted the area, if past reports say he had caucasian features than why do you put down those reports? If there are such reports then it is reporting what the people saw, what is so unbelievable about that?
===== take a look at this from another site: According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men).
The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan; Alans were iranic with caucasian features). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan.
Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard.We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan:
"He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back."
Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesukai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes.
Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed".
As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes.
Another of Genghis Khan's descendants, the great conqueror Tamerlane (1336-1405), also inherited Nordish racial characteristics. According to a contemporary, Ibn Arabshah, Tamerlane was tall and strong, with broad shoulders, a large head and high forehead, he had a heavy beard, was white-skinned and had a ruddy complexion. He also seems to have been fair-haired. This description has been confirmed in recent times. In 1941, the Soviet Archaeological Commission opened the tomb of Tamerlane, which resides in the city of Samarkand, Uzbekistan. Within it, Tamerlane's physical remains were discovered: they proved that he had indeed been a man of strong build and imposing stature. Most interestingly of all however, the last few hairs of a reddish-brown moustache were found adhering to the skull.
===I dont see why these reports are ignored? So what if he had caucasian features - what is so bad about that? That does not diminish his achievements; which leads one to think that maybe the people with negative comments are racist to caucasians or something, with bias and prejudice. I dont understand, what is so bad if he had caucasian features? Here we have reports but people ignore them, which is biased and erranous and unscientific. If there were caucasian tribes such as the Tocharians, Yuezhi and Cumans then why cant some Asians have white ancestry - is that hard to understand or something. Think clearly on what I said and despel any biased, nationalistic and racist views that you might have as that will get no results. One must examine ALL evidence and make hypothesis/conclusions as such
Because Asians don't have bits of caucasian dna like the caucasians do, Germans have Asian DNA , the Chinese , Mongolians, Japanese , don't even have traces of Caucasian dna.
Most of the insistence on behalf of the European nations that Genghis was East Asian comes from assessments of his actions. The actions and behavioral patterns of Genghis Khan and the cultures and genes that he so explicitly and dramatical spread throughout the world - is East Asian.
Genghis Khan's Mongol movement and its contributions are of the following
- spread of East Asian genes to the west at the cost of Nordic genes (Nordics were moving towards Russia at that time)
- spread of East Asian culture
- a buffer zone of Eurasians from European invasions
- Forcing Europeans to move westward in their endeavors
So , why some Nordicists , want Genghis Khan to be partially or wholly " white " doesn't quite make sense to me. He did so many things for the Asians, he even set up a dinner table above a spot where Russian princes were buried alive , and enjoyed a feast with his Mongol compatriots there. How insane is it to even imagine a scenario where a Nordic man is being merry in the company of East Asians all the while knowing that people of his own kind were perishing right beneath him. It's a wonder why some people can't be content with one ancestry , they have to claim every ancestry that's prominent. It's completely mongrel behavior.
Rashid Aldin's text , ironically , is filled exclusively with pictures of East Asiatics , the book is essentially a world history text with the focal point of East Asians , how dominant would they have to have been at the time in order for historical texts to be completely based on them?
And again, Aldin's statements e.g. Kublai and red hair , are inherently contradictory. He was a Jewish writer employing Jewish forms of writing towards composing an epic styled text. Wernergerman ( talk) 19:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Even if he had red hair and blue eyes he would have looked completely 100% mongoloid. Check out this link where you can see variety of mongols with 100% asiatic face with blonde hair, red hair blue eyes, green eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
Yet for some reason the wiki editor doesn't want to mention this? how more misleading can you get to make people think that genghis khan was an nordic man with that post? WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorsPride6565 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
The description on Genghis Khan birth section is very misleading, while I don't deny historical records. The description make's it sound like was an white people, when in fact some modern mongols today also display these physical characteristics and yet look 100% mongoloid in appearance. Also genghis khan belong to the genetic haplogroup C3, this means his paternal ancestry was mongoloid for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorsPride6565 ( talk • contribs) 13:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
====Read the above comment (at the bottom) - there were caucasian people that lived in the area long ago and mixed with certain people, that is where the light eyes and hair comes, obviously not a natural mongol trait. Also how would they know Genghis Khan's haplogroup if his grave was never found - then there will be no genetic sample
Could the author please fix footnote nr. 3. "Also known as Thomas Du" (very funny) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.168.4 ( talk) 02:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for the heads up. Boneyard90 ( talk) 20:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the Nordicist joke from the section on his birth. First of all, it's about his birth, not hearsay mythology from a non-contemporary historian. Second, the source ITSELF doubts the account. Third, his paternal DNA marker is Northeast Asian - C3.
It's surprising (not really) that this stood for so long. I will be checking back frequently, and it will be deleted once more if any resident Nordicists want to bend Wiki conventions yet again. Huaxia ( talk) 19:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Furthermore the supposed "ancestress" is a legend as well. The framing of the traits the ancestor was supposed to have possessed in such an especially unrelated topic misleads the reader into believing Genghis Khan was some kind of Aryan posterboy. Thus the passage fails to meet standards on yet another aspect, and this time it's "relevance" - beyond the unreliable secondary source, and unreliable primary source. The mythological origins of the Borjigit clan have no place in a section detailing Temujin's birth or even his early life - nor does his alleged surprise at his son's alleged complexion. Huaxia ( talk) 21:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Again, why would you want a man who did so many bad things to the Europeans at the cost of doing good things for the Asiatics , to be European or even partially European. If the Europeans would have even had a hint that he was caucasoid, there would be no telling how many books we would have had over investigations on such a sensational topic. Genghis Khan was responsible for the spread of Asiatic genes and Asiatic culture , why , my god why would we want him to be Caucasian?
Genghis Khan and his Mongol movement was the responsible for the pinnacle events of mass introduction of East Asian culture and ethnicity to the European sphere. Before him, not many in Europe were concerned with the Asiatics, after him however , it was the introduction of Asiatic fear to the Europeans. Wernergerman ( talk) 20:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Other considerations
- The Mongols were responsible for initiating the pan-european movement (renaissance) in the European sphere. As well as anti-asiatic campaigns. The Mongols , and all of the connotations of the word Mongol , have been in references to people with Asiatic features. The word itself invokes strong - antiasiatic - emotional reactions for Europeans everywhere. The notion of the Mongols is essentially synonomous with the entire notion of who the Asians are for all of the Europeans. This isn't a learned notion fed to the people via textbooks , EUROPEAN FEAR OF THE ASIATIC IS AN INGRAINED REACTION. This immense emotional reaction of fear as well as the realization on the need for awareness of what's going on in Asia has been established into the European people themselves after the Mongol raids to make certain that Europeans don't have to encounter situations of possible extinction again. Now ask yourself, would a people of bigger stature , more magnificient appearance , and an elite culture really come to fear Asians just by being brainwashed via an unrelenting regimen of reading textbooks and listening to speeches? No , this fear is of greater importance , it has been ingrained. Because Europeans have come to the realization that the matter of their existence is at stake when dealing with the Asians. Remember the central lesson of the Mongol raids , Europe was essentially destroyed after the battle of Battle of Legnica.
- should the Mongols have been caucasian or even part caucasian before , they are certainly not at this point , an overwhelming majority of them are plain and simply Asiatic. I don't believe that I've ever encoutered a case where one ethnic group takes over another and then subsequently steals their ethonym. And to suggest that these Asiatics stole the ethonym by outcompeting what supposedly was a caucasoid ethnic group is ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS.
Wernergerman ( talk) 21:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
in the section of his early life, the sentence "They abandoned Olen and her children" is written incorrectly, and 'olen' is highlighted as a link incorrectly. the reference should be to "hoelun", which is mentioned in the next sentence. the correct mention of "hoelun" instead of "olen" is not highlighted as a link as it should be. Patric627 ( talk) 06:28, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
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In the article on Genghis Kahn, it states that the Mongols "...sacked the Genoese trade-fortress of Caffa in Crimea...". Based on the Wiki artical on Feodosiya, Caffa was actually ruled by the Republic of Venice during the time of the Mongolian invasion.
R larocque ( talk) 14:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I had a look around and it is confusing, I found this http://history.cultural-china.com/en/46H2406H11140.html - which supports Genovese. But like I say, it is confusing and they seem to have swapped around a bit. I looked at the other wiki articles and the detail there was uncited. It's around 1219 or 1220 that we are discussing yes? Could you please provide a WP:RS for your claim as another wiki article is not a reliable source. I will watch this article for further discussion - Also feel free to provide a reliable source for your desired alteration and make another edit request, thanks - Youreallycan ( talk) 17:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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Probably H.G. Wells´Outline of History, or Plantagenet Somerset Fry´s "Children´s History of the World" refer that Chinggis Khan had established a customs´union and sought to suppress vendettas at a rather young age and that therefore the Kin Emperor objected and threatened him with an action which could in those days could already have meant a fate comparable to that of the ambiguously named Dzungars still later Deborahaltar ( talk) 21:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC) Deborahaltar ( talk) 21:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
in Turkish. Böri ( talk) 09:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
a rather young man and make common trade between nomads and all towns possible and help women and the poor, this was mentioned I think in the Children´s History of the World by Plantagenet Somerset Fry or the Outline of History by H.G. Wells, it is important to make a subject when at world history level not a fetish but close to the facts as possible and fully revealing its advancement for its period of history and the nature of the people wherever, otherwise people at large will set no store by it as international heritage and part of humanity. Furthermore secondary wives were merely described in the Old Mongol language of the Niucha Mongqol-un Tovcha´an as Noekegin, feminine of Noeke translated as similar to "drug/druzhinhki" in other words as "Friend", "Freundin", "Amie", "Amiga". The upheaval of the Great Mongol State as under the meanings of Mongol "brave" or "Mengwu Shiwei" cost about less than twenty percent of the lives of some twentieth century progress, without such sacrifices ordinary people would not manage to effect this transformations. DeborahAltar 77.54.181.54 ( talk) 23:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.181.54 ( talk) 23:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I mean that the Children´s History of the World by Plantagenet Somerset Fry or the Outline of History by H.G. Wells did clearly mention his intent of a customs union and to stop vendettas, this has also appeared in 20th century accounts of Temujine. I also mean that this topic is one of world history, and therefore should be presented clearly and consistently, including all the amazing advanced progress it contained in a simple structure from some points of view. I also want to differentiate via linguistic evidence of the times, Mongol gender relations as being rather closer to the friend basis, also being transferrable, and later openly reported even to have at times women with discreetly more than one male partner but visibly so, in the least humanly developed and complicated fashion. The upheavals associated with the Great Mongol (meaning brave or Mengwu Shiwei) State a term close to that of the Great Mongol Army or it might be Great Mongol Fighters being by the Plantagenet Somerset Fry estimate lower than that of some of the 20th century upheavals, although some estimates vary but appeared to be based on some phobias. These sacrifices are needed for such transformations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborahaltar ( talk • contribs) 22:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Still in 1224 there was also the 1224 Battle of the River Khalka. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborahaltar ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi, The section in the page that collates the fictional works about Genghis does not contain an American Novel called "The Earth Is the Lord's (1941)" by the American novelist Taylor Caldwell ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Caldwell). This should be added. Regards. Baidurya chakrabarti ( talk) 17:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)Baidurya Baidurya chakrabarti ( talk) 17:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence: "The name would imply skill as a blacksmith.", and the sentence beginning the next paragraph: "More likely, as no evidence has survived to indicate that Genghis Khan had any exceptional training or reputation as a blacksmith..." is illogical, since (in the lead) he is "born Temujin" (newborns don't have any skills (except pooping and crying)). These two paragraphs should merge so that it reads something like:
There is no point in discussing what it DOESN'T mean. ~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
20:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, this section (and others) seem disordered, usually the 'In popular culture' stuff goes after the informational stuff.
There is a documentary by ORF (Austrian Broadcasting Corporation) in their Unversum Documentary series titled Genghis Khan: Rider of the Apocalypse. I haven't tracked down a 'reliable source' for this, but it can be found on Hulu:
ORF Universum Documentaries / Season 1 : Ep. 19 (52:52)
~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
21:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
This article needs to be tidyied up. A lot of it is badly written. What, for instance, does "This incident cemented his position as a prisoner for manslaughter" mean? What do the dates on this page mean? Are they BCE or CE? Gregorian (or Julian) calendar or Chinese? GeorgeHarnish ( talk) 13:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I second the complaints. Where are the footnotes? and use primary source material if you are going to make outrageous idiotic claims. This article is infuriating beyond belief.
My apologies for being such a grammar-nazi, but somebody has to do it! ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 03:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be some white supremacists trying to claiming national Mongolian hero by taking advantage of the fact that this wikipedia mentioned of Al Rashidi descriptions about Genghis Khan. At the same time the editor is bias to remove any information of him being Mongoloid creating so much confusion and misunderstanding among some forum. I would have to tell others to report to the Wikipedia admins and moderator on this page. Evidence of Mongolians and Hmong who inherit green eyes, blue eyes, red hair, blonde hair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY Please do not remove information that I have edited to counter Euro-centrist racist and wild claims of other's people history. WarriorsPride6565 ( talk (talk • contribs) 11:06, 8 march (UTC)
The image used to depict Ghenghis Khan (Chingiz Khan) and his family (wife and four sons) is in fact: "
Tumanba Khan, His Wife, and His Nine Sons" (English title of painting). It is from a Chingiznama (Book of Genghis Khan); a
Mughal painting from the illustrated manuscript, folio :
Jāmiʿ al-tawārīkh, author: Basawan. Artist: Bhim Gujarati; (ca.1596); commissioned by the court of the Emperor of Hindustan, Akbar the Great.
~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
06:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Update: that image is actually a modern copy by artist Kailash Raj, and was sold as Item Code: ME80 -- This reproduction (copy) is derived from a Chingiznama, an original can be seen at the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art, where it has the following description (emphasis mine):
Please try to see this from the perspective of the artist:
Imagine creating a work of art requiring considerable skill, talent, time and effort -- only to see an image of your work in the wrong context and attributed to another artist. ~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
16:36, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Some of the sections linking to a 'Main article' need to be more concise in summarization, especially the 'Khwarezmian Empire' section. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 01:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
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"Accounts of Genghis Khan's life are marked by claims of a series of betrayals and conspiracies. These include rifts with his early allies such as Jamuhha (who also wanted to be a ruler of Mongol tribes) and Wang Khan (his and his father's ally), his son Jochi, and problems with the most important shaman, who was allegedly trying to drive a wedge between him and his loyal brother Khasar. His military strategies showed a deep interest in gathering good intelligence and understanding the motivations of his rivals as exemplified by his extensive spy network and Yam route systems. He seemed to be a quick student, adopting new technologies and ideas that he encountered, such as siege warfare from the Chinese. He was also ruthless, as demonstrated by his measuring against the linchpin tactic used against the tribes led by Jamukha."
in the section _Uniting the confederations_
The (unreferenced) statements above are sandwiched between two contiguous paragraphs of much greater relevancy. The information within is also detailed in other areas of the article.
97.83.30.92 ( talk) 22:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry - please remove the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.83.30.92 ( talk) 00:11, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
is not required for edits to semi-protected, unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages.
elektrik
SHOOS (
talk)
23:35, 30 April 2012 (UTC)Khazakhians please , theory is a theory , fact is fact . Don't try convince theory is a fact . Use indepenedent refers. WWW.nobodynothis site.kz is not a proof . Scientist should have worldwide trustworth .Refers should be in English . Sirmolenko ( talk) 12:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Khazakhians please , theory is a theory , fact is fact . Don't try convince theory is a fact . Use indepenedent refers. WWW.nobodynothis site.kz is not a proof . Scientist should have worldwide trustworth .Refers should be in English . Sirmolenko ( talk) 13:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
It must be said, that there are many pro-Chinese and Persian falsifications of the "wild nomads" etc. about the origin of Genghis Khan and his Power in the official History. Primarily we should know the truth about the meaning of the names "Mongol" and "Tatar" (“Tartar") in the medieval Eurasia: the name "Mongol" at least until the 17th-18th centuries meant belonging to a political community, and was not the ethnic name. While “the name "Tatar" was “the name of the native nation of Genghis Khan …” , “… Genghis Khan and his people did not speak the language, which we now call the "Mongolian”…" (Russian academic-orientalist V.P.Vasiliev, 19th century). All of this is confirmed by many little-known facts from Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Tatar, Turkish and West European historical sources. Only this theme about Genghis Khan, rather, the truth about his origin, his native ethnos and his affairs was taboo - as in official history of the Romanov's, so and during the Soviet-Bolshevik regime. A well-grounded rebuttal of these chinese-persian myths about "incredible cruelty of nomadic mongol-tatar conquerors", and about "a war between the Tatars and Genghis Khan", as well as a lot of from the real Tatar (Turkic) History you can learn in the book "Forgotten Heritage of Tatars" (by Galy Yenikeyev), published by Smashwords. There are a lot of previously little-known historical facts, as well as 16 maps and illustrations in this book. This e-book you can easily find in the Internet, on Smashwords company website: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/175211
On the cover of this book you can see the true appearance of Genghis Khan. It is his lifetime portrait. Notes to the portrait from the book says: "...In the ancient Tatar historical source «About the clan of Genghis-Khan» the author gives the words of the mother of Genghis-Khan: «My son Genghis looks like this: he has a golden bushy beard, he wears a white fur coat and goes on a white horse» [34, p. 14]. As we can see, the portrait of an unknown medieval artist in many ways corresponds to the words of the mother of the Hero, which have come down to us in this ancient Tatar story. Therefore, this portrait, which corresponds to the information of the Tatar source and to data from other sources, we believe, the most reliably transmits the appearance of Genghis-Khan...". Antonio von Horde ( talk) 12:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC) Antonio von Horde ( talk) 12:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks for your reply. But it must be said that many facts prove, that the thesis "the Tatars were the enemy of Genghis Khan" was invented by Chinese historians-ideologists in the second half of the 14th century. These Chinese historians were ideologists of those of Chinese politicians, who fought then against the Tatars of the Horde in China. After anti-Tatar data of the composition "about the war Tatars against the Chingiz-Khan" etc. was repeated by Persian politician Rashid ad-Din, who was an enemy of the Tatars of the Golden Horde. I.e. the ideologues of enemies of the Tartars Horde was cleverly used the name of a political community "Mongol" and the ethnic name "Tatar" - after all, these two names were often used together - for example, as the names "Russian" and "Soviet" not so long ago.
Actually, Tatars knew and remembered that Genghis Khan was their ancestor and tribesman since ancient times. Besides, this is stated in many ancient sources - about it is spoken as in the Tatar historical sources, so in many sources of other Nations: Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Turkish and West European. For example, many sources of those times reported that "Tatars are a Turkic tribe, and their king is the Chingiz-Khan" (Arabic Ibn al-Asher, 1219), "in 1187 Tatars had elected a King for themselves, whose name was Genghis-Khan" (Marco Polo, 13-th century), "Tatar's Khan Temuchin declared himself as Emperor and Tatars named his "Genghis-Khan" (a lot of Chinese sources). Such sources, I repeat, are very much, but they are not very known to the General public at the present time. And many of them have been interpreted wrongly.
“…As reported a medieval Persian author, in 1219 the Khorezmshakh's troops went on their last campaign "against the people of Tatar Kadir-khan, the ruler of the Kimak Khaganate". And soon the whole huge army of the Khorezmshakhs was defeated, and their state was destroyed. This happened because "Tatars, led by their King of Chingiz-khan, entered into this war and attacked the troops of the Khorezmshakh" - tells a contemporary of those events, the Arab Ali ibn al-Athir.
Many ancient sources report, that the Tatar states were in those days also on the territories of modern China - on Eastern Turkistan, or Uyghurstan - and further east. There the Tatars settled along the Great Silk Road. This was also reported by Ibn al-Athir. He also wrote that Kharezmshakh, before his army and state were defeated by the Tatars, gave the order to rob and kill the Tatar merchants, which came with the goods from China, and thereafter «undertook a campaign to the Tatar dwelling places, and captured their women and children». (75), (37).
The rulers of several states, located then on the territories of modern China, apparently, also could not tolerate competition from the side of the Tatars on the Great Silk Road. At that time the most aggressive was the Jin Empire in this region.
In 1219 certain Maine-hun was in the General Headquarters of the Tatars as an ambassador from Southern China. He wrote: "Jhin Emperor every three years sent troops far to the West for the plunder and destruction of the Tartars". <…> Finally, the Tatar Emperor Ginghis, who had long suffered from the annoyance of those attacks on his people, gathered a great army and in a single year smashed those robbers of the Jhin" (translated by V. Vasiliev) (20) (37).
So before the "era of Chingiz-Khan", as we see, the position of the Tatars was pretty heavy. It turned out so, that Tatars were competitors for the nobility of the Middle and Far East on the Great Silk Road. Thus, they sent their troops against the Tatars from the south-west and from the east.
But then the situation had changed. The above-mentioned Armenian chronicler Maghakia (XIII century) wrote: "From the Tatars we heard, that at one time, when they were very exhausted by troubles, they suddenly struck a sensible idea: They called on the help of God, and gave Him a great oath to keep His commandments forever. Then came to them an Angel from God in the form of an eagle with golden wings, and, speaking their language, summoned their chief, whose name was Chingiz. The Eagle told him all the commandments of God in their native language”. Further Maghakia reports: “Among these divine laws, which the angel ordered to Genghis, were these: "First is this: to love one another, and secondly: do not commit adultery, not steal, not bear false witness, do not betray anyone (not deceive placed his trust); respect the aged and poor. And the angel commanded the Tatars to rule over many regions and countries and to multiply in huge quantity. And so it happened. These divine laws, which brought the angel from God, Tatars called "Yasak" in their own language”. (52).
It should be explained that "Yasak" this is a slightly distorted old Tatar word "Yazug", another version of this word is "Yazu". In the modern Tatar language is applied the following variant of this word: "Yazu". It literally means "the Scripture ".
Maghakia, as we can see, reports from the words themselves Tatars that Chingiz-Khan united them into a powerful state on the basis of fair and humane laws set out in the Great Yazu. Many facts speak about this, when considered them objectively (38). The Great Yazu of Chingiz-Khan was the main Code of the Great Horde, which can be called the first Constitution in the history of Eurasia. This code of honor, dignity and excellence of virtue, above all, established the following: "One must honor and respect the innocent, fair, scholars, and wise men, to whatever people they may belong; and to condemn the vile, wicked and the unjust people" (Ab-ul-Faraj). And “first of all Chingiz-Khan himself strictly observed the norms of the Great Yazu” (Akhmet Zeki Validi Togan)…” (from the book "Forgotten Heritage of Tatars" - by Galy Yenikeyev). See on Smashwords company website: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/175211 Antonio von Horde ( talk) 17:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC) Antonio von Horde ( talk) 09:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Contemporary Mongolians clearly prefer Chinggis over Genghis, not only because it reflects Mongolian pronounciation more closely, but also because it matches the Cyrillic version, Чингис хаан (see for example, http://mn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%81_%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B0%D0%BD) much better. The Genghis pronounciation is one that - to my knowledge - does not exist in Mongolian and is misleading, even though it is somewhat established in English. The Chinggis romanization is begining to be used more widely, see for example the Wikipedia page on Chinggis Khaan Intl Airport ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinggis_Khaan_International_Airport). At the very least, I would suggest acknowledging the misleading romanization of Genghis somewhere on the page and pointing to the contemporary preference for Chinggis would be helpful. This is like moving from Peking to Beijing in usage, it takes some time, but is the appropriate thing to do. Jdierkes ( talk) 15:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
It must be noted at the head of the article that it's ancient name in Russian chronicles - Орда (Horde, Army) and царство Ордынское (Czardom of Horde) or царство Татарское (Tatar Czardom). There was no such term as "Mongol Empire" - this is modern term. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Society of Czardom of Horde is classical example of multinational society like modern society of Europe (Western Eurasia) or many other societies of the world. It it not the society of "Mongol nation", "Tatar nation" or "Kazak nation" because under terms "Mongol", "Tatar", "Kazak" designated people of different nations, religions and social classes just the same as in time of Russian Empire all it's people in European sources were "Russians" and in Soviet Union all it's people were "Soviets". Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Czar Gengis in fact created new multinational "military nation" from people of different nations who became the warriors of his multinational Army-Horde and thats why citizens of his new state (Czardom of Horde). In different sources represantatives of this "nation" is known under the names Mongols, Tartars (Tatars) or Cossacks which in beginning meant the same - "free people", "free people by the will of God", "free warriors", "free citizens of Horde society". Later this model was sucessfully used in Russian Empire and in Soviet Union (creation of "Soviet nation" by Soviet leaders, among them - Joseph Stalin). This model also has parallels with society of Roman Empire where all free citizens of different origin were "Romans" or modern Europe (society of European Union) where all citizens are "Europeans". It must be mentioned in article. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The article is inconsitent in Temüjin vs Temujin. Which is correct?
Temüüjin is the correct form, Темүүжин AptitudeDesign ( talk) 20:50, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
AS Jengiz or Chingiz Чингиз Хаан is known only to Anglophones who cannot recognise Italian orthography { Genghis}, as "Ghenghis", I see no point in encouraging the mispronounciation. AptitudeDesign ( talk) 21:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
This map shown in article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Asia_1200ad.jpg
Where does it come from? Thanks
Al Hendrike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.154.7 ( talk) 06:39, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
From here: http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html. -- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 15:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Among the descendants and distant relatives of Gengis you can see people of many religions, nations, countries and social classes. Among his descendants - famous political leaders of different epochs in the countries of Central Eurasia (among them first of all - Russian Empire but also Chineese Empire, Crimean Khanate, Zaporozhian Cossack Army etc.). Among his descendants - famous Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Buddhist saints, teologists and philosophers, poets and writers, founders of new cities, travelleres and military leaders. Russian (Moscow) great princes and czars beginning from Ivan Kalita to Ivan the Terrible are direct descendants of czar Gengis. So we must say about the descendance of dynasties between Czardom of Horde and Czardom of Russia (Russian Empire). It must be also mentioned in the head of the article i think. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
"identified a Y-chromosomal lineage present in about 8% of the men in a large region of Asia (about 0.5% of the world total). The paper suggests that the pattern of variation within the lineage is consistent with a hypothesis that it originated in Mongolia about 1,000 years ago. Because the rate of such a spread would be too rapid to have occurred by genetic drift, the authors propose that the lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, and that it has spread through social selection" The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols -- It is impossible that there are 15 million descents.Don't you think that it is too dubious estimate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.4.251 ( talk) 06:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
Since the start of September there have been 39 edits to the article. It has mostly been vandalism and reverts, with a couple of good faith edits that just weren't helpful. Given the high visibility of this article and the fact that it's frequently vandalised, I think it would be a good idea to semi-protect but I thought I'd ask for input on the talk page in case people think it's worth keeping editing open to everyone. Nev1 ( talk) 14:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't feed the trolls |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I don't know why there is this argument above about Genghis Khan being white. He was a Chinese National and this is a fact. I don't even think many of you on this discussion are even Chinese. It is due time to read the correct history from the Chinese perspective. We have been united as China for 5000 years, never divided. And never WHITE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.174.192.202 ( talk) 13:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
it's somewhat baffling to me why a Chinese national would advocate for the notion of Genghis as a chinaman , I was under the impression that the chinese wholeheartidly despised the mongols. However , I do agree with the OP that the section on Genghis Khan's birth is suggestively patchworked and ambiguous. The particular section - which references Rashid Al-din Hamadani's supposed statements about Genghis' glittering ancestors - doesn't sufficiently elaborate on exactly what ethnicity Genghis Khan could have been. Kyrg is inadequate as much of their ethnic makeup is the result of mixing (via concubines perhaps) between the Mongols and whatever caucasian ethnicities were unfortunately in the geographic line of the Mongol campaign. We have all been able to agree thus far on one point , that Genghis Khan was a Mongol. However , it seems that some people want to make a play on what exactly constitutes a Mongolian. I'm not implicating either Siafu or Yaan here , but quoting statements about the glittering ancestors of Genghis in such a clustered and disorganized fashion without explaining upon it adequately is dubious and will only lead to outrageous discussions and controversy. Whoever is responsible for that particular section based on Rashid Al-din Hamadani's supposed statements about Genghis Khan's ancestors needs to clarify and elaborate further upon the possible meaning of those statements. The particular editor in question needs to build upon those statements. Since we've agreed that Genghis Khan was a Mongol ... Here's are some central follow up questions .... Were the original Mongols (before the unification and the concubine campaigns) of an exclusive ethnic group that was homogenous such as the Chinese were and was Genghis Khan simply a Mongoloid with red hair ? Were the original Mongols an actual founding and homogenous ethnic group with deep ethnic roots via ancestor worship - as the japanese , koreans , chinese - or rather was the term Mongol more superficial as in a situation where it is simply a term adopted by a gang composed of mixed ethnic people that simply identified themselves as " Mongols " similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols_(motorcycle_club) ? Maybe the mongoloids of asia aren't really " mongoloid " ... In addition to this there needs to be more collaborative work on the presence of the actual ancestral line of Genghis Khan in this article. Wernergerman ( talk) 15:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC) |
Dont feed trolls,, dont react to their provocking Monkh Naran ( talk) 01:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
When Genghis Khan became obssesed with the Khwarezmian Empire. I don't get it. Why will the persians and Khwarezmians destroy genghis khan diplomats. But the invasion was just revenge of avenging his caravan and envoys.
A 200,000 force marched to Modern Uzbekistan and took it. They just marched there and took. Did the Khwarezmians just give it do the Mongols by running south? Then Genghis Khan thinks that Khwarezmia is just giving him their land. But even though he won the march and raid into the land, he was still wrong. Eventually his armies reached Urgench and just ran through it and burned and sacked it to the ground. Then he just fought and wiped out region after region in the Khwarezmian Empire.
The Shah had no matter in the invasion and fled west until his empire was added to the Mongol Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esamhk12 ( talk • contribs) 22:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Was he born c.1162 or in 1162? Both dates are mentioned in the article and should be reconciled. Caeruleancentaur ( talk) 18:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
It's just not known exactly. Most commonly, 1155, 1162 and 1167 are thought to be possible birth years, with 1162 being the most likely one. Yaan ( talk) 13:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I believed the changes I made on Oct. 30, 2010 were self-explanatory but since an explanation for each component was demanded, here they are:
ContinentalAve ( talk) 17:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
![]() | The examples and perspective in this section may not
include all significant viewpoints. (November 2010) |
![]() | This section contains
weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies
biased or
unverifiable information. (November 2010) |
" No accurate portraits of Genghis exist today, and any surviving depictions are considered to be artistic interpretations. Persian historian Rashid-al-Din recorded in his "Chronicles" that the legendary "glittering" ancestor of Genghis was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and green-eyed. Rashid al-Din also described the first meeting of Genghis and Kublai Khan, when Genghis was shocked to find that Kublai had not inherited his red hair.[10] Also according to al-Din Genghis's Borjigid clan, had a legend involving their origins: it began as the result of an affair between Alan-ko and a stranger to her land, a glittering man who happened to have red hair and bluish-green eyes. Modern historian Paul Ratchnevsky has suggested in his Genghis biography that the "glittering man" may have been from the Kyrgyz people, who historically displayed these same characteristics. Controversies aside, the closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan (see picture above).[citation needed] "
This section ,
- gives undue emphasis on one point of view that has its supposed basis soley on one source.
- it's not clear exactly what that " point of view " is because it's not clear what the contributing editor is arguing for here. He or she needs to elaborate upon those supposed quotes by Rashid Al-din Hamadani instead of just randomly pasting various statements belonging to him without any subsequent explanation whatsoever - at the moment it seems that this contributing editor just wants us to explore the remote possibility that Genghis Khan was anything other than a Mongoloid ... if he indeed was of mixed ethnicity , then elaboration upon this POV is required as it goes against the prevalent POV of Genghis Khan being a " pure-blooded " Mongoloid. In other words , just implying that Genghis Khan was of mixed ethnic background invites controversy , the editor needs to be specific in exactly what he or she means.
Also , there's too much of a play on the terms " mongolian " and Mongol. There are Mongolians that are the root ethnic peoples of Mongolia and then there are Mongols who joined or became forcibly integrated during the campaign. It would be helpful if the author would explain whether he or she believes that the original birth existence of Genghis Khan took place within that of an organized gang ( such as the " Mongols " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols_(motorcycle_club) ) or within a homogenous ethnic group such as the " Mongoloid " Japanese , Chinese , Koreans , as such pertains to the popular perception of Mongolians http://cominganarchy.com/2005/11/21/bush-in-mongolia-ii/ ...
Wernergerman ( talk) 18:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to wait a bit before delving in this discussion , in case others want to contribute. From my experience so far , it isn't going to be many... not too many people seem to be interested in the topic of Genghis Khan. As for now , some of what you mentioned seems more on the side of an opinion to me and definitely subject to debate ... and not necessarily your opinion by the way , for example , Alan Goa being the ancestor of all Mongol tribes. Seems along the lines of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_blood_theory_in_Korea
others
" AFAIK there are only two important primary sources about Genghis Khan's ancestors "
again , definitely subject to debate .
I would be very interested to hear what an actual Mongolian has to say about this matter , not a Mongol (which seems to habitually be used as a loanword) ... I for one don't believe that the Mongols are simply comprised of a sudden gathering and intermixing between ethnic groups , I believe that they all source from a root ethnic group that were frontrunners of the campaign (the nobility , that is) and that root identity is obviously Mongoloid. Thus the particular usage of the term " Mongoloid " and why it has been denoted towards Asiatics. Turkic peoples will vehemently argue that the original roots of the Mongolians source from the Slavic Turks , however , this is obviously debatable since
- there are no pure Turks that belong to the Mongolian ethnic group , that is no such thing as a pure caucasian Mongol ... period. However , the majority of the people within Mongolia are distinctly Mongoloid or East Asiatic. There are pure " Mongoloid " Mongols however there are no pure Caucasian Mongols.
- In fact , all Mongols , that is all of the people that have historical connections to the Mongol movement , have Mongoloid features. There is only one way that this can happen , that is by mixing with a Mongoloid , Mongoloid features are impossible to mimic in other races.
- the Turks are a minority in Mongolia
- there are other obvious arguments , but I'll cease here.
Again , this article needs to have other points of views about this matter , for instance an explanation of genghis khan's appearance as relevant to the one displayed in the main picture is noticeably absent. And again , the contributor of that particular content of information about Genghis' glittering ancestors needs to actually explain further on Al-din's statements in a specific fashion , instead of just pasting quotations and relying on the reader's imagination. Wernergerman ( talk) 21:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
So , what ... the section is going to remain as it is?
" No accurate portraits of Genghis exist today, and any surviving depictions are considered to be artistic interpretations. Persian historian Rashid-al-Din recorded in his "Chronicles" that the legendary "glittering" ancestor of Genghis was tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and green-eyed. Rashid al-Din also described the first meeting of Genghis and Kublai Khan, when Genghis was shocked to find that Kublai had not inherited his red hair.[10] Also according to al-Din Genghis's Borjigid clan, had a legend involving their origins: it began as the result of an affair between Alan-ko and a stranger to her land, a glittering man who happened to have red hair and bluish-green eyes. Modern historian Paul Ratchnevsky has suggested in his Genghis biography that the "glittering man" may have been from the Kyrgyz people, who historically displayed these same characteristics. Controversies aside, the closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan (see picture above).[citation needed] "
What on earth exactly is this section implicating? I'm asking that either the contributing editor or some other qualified individual explain and elaborate , otherwise it is merely comprised of random ill-placed quotations... Do you believe that this is adequate? I for one could come up with several different explanations on the meaning of the passage ...
- genghis khan was a red haired mongolian of mongoloid lineage.
- genghis khan was tocharian and was caucasian , a very small percentage of stormfront idiots (yes they actually had a poll about this) believe that he was caucasian ... little do they realize that they are taking the blood that's on others hands and taking it up as their own.
- genghis khan had a little bit of slavic blood , however was mostly mongoloid.
- genghis khan was of a half breed caucasian/mongoloid.
What is that passage implying ? Answers should be backed by credible mainstream sources and not one that's obscure. The current state of the passage is inadequate ... even if it consists of one perspective which is albeit not very prominent it should be composed of as an actual article and not just as some pasted statements as if a 4th grader wrote it. I plan on contributing to it by stating some opposing arguments in the future , in the meanwhile , someone has to expand upon the meaning of all of those statements. If the contributing editor believes that genghis khan was tocharian then be a grown man about it and just state it ... don't hide behind randomly pasted statements as a kindergartner would do. The intent of this article is not to be speculative , wikipedia is not a place to suggest ideas. Again , state what you mean , and state it firmly and then back it up with credible and mainstream sources. Don't be feeble about it. If the contributing editor isn't able to attend to these requirements , then don't state such things at all.
Wernergerman (
talk)
20:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
What's the problem here? Here's the problem. You're making it out to seem that soley two credible statements about Genghis Khan's appearance within the entire universe itself as we know it draw from one source that stems from outside of Mongolia itself -note that there aren't any portions of the wikipedia Births section that draw from the Secret History. There are ALWAYS other sources... no matter what subject in relevance. In fact , there are numerous written statements or pictures within Al-din's book that either refer to or imply Genghis Khan's appearance in the same way as these two statements. You're being real selective , in a biased fashion , about the information that you deem to be credible when there are other sources out there that claim his appearance in the same fashion as Al-din's book does. For some reason , the majority of Mongolian accounts (which exist in numerous amounts) are discredited. You deem Ratchnevsky as being credible when there are many others that have written similar books and were well researched in the formal sense. There are other sources out there that directly state the ethnicity and physical appearance of Genghis Khan in a bold fashion however you claim that the entirety of this man's existence is reduced to these two feeble statements that are unclear and then you don't even bother to explain upon them ... Genghis Khan might have well not even existed... It's not appropriate in any forum of discussion or formats of article construction to merely paste quotations and not explain your perspective that's based on those quotations. It's simply not appropriate.
Stand behind your statements , be firm about it , state who he really was .... if I were to go to Mongolia right now I bet that I could find numerous sources on his appearance that stem from his time period that boldly and firmly state his ethnicity and appearance . However these sources would not be deemed credible here since they aren't of Western origin. Julius Caesar has his appearance based on a Roman historian ... because he was Roman. Why aren't we drawing from Mongolian sources to describe a Mongolian man's appearance. Why is it that all Mongolian accounts besides the Secret History are not deemed credible?
This is supposed to be a factual article and is not meant to be speculative or a place for original research. soley pasting statements and having others infer from it invites speculation.
1) The following passage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_khan#Birth doesn't draw at all from anything else other than those two statements within Al-din's book. In fact , it doesn't even mention that all of the pictures , whether of old or new versions of the text , depict genghis khan with black hair and mongoloid features. Why isn't this part about his appearance mentioned in the particular section that we're discussing at the moment ? There are numerous accounts of Genghis Khan's appearance in Al-din's book , whether of written or pictorial form , however , the book was written as a part epic and part historical manuscript. Not all of it is to be taken literally. What this Births section does is draw entirely soley from those two statements (of the validity which I have yet to prove) and not the other accounts within the same book. Again , this is an opportunity for other perspectives to be presented and yet you selectively disregard them with bias even if they are in the same book. Don't even go on about how some statements are more credible than others or on how other people had painted the paintings. Al-din directed the paintings and there are times when others wrote the book for him. However , the book itself in its entirety is credited to him , so picking it apart isn't permitted here. You're being biased , just admit it.
2) Why aren't there any portions of the Births sections that draw from the Secret History or Mongolian sources ? The Secret History does describe Genghis' appearance , in fact , there are numerous other Mongolian sources that describe Genghis' appearance either in written form or paintings or of statues and etchings on the mountain side ... why does this article obliviat this fact? the wikipedia source on Julius Caesar cites a Roman historian in describing a Roman figure , there are numerous Mongolians that describe Genghis Khan however their credibility is questioned since most historians deem the Mongolians as habitual criminals. I could ask this question over and over again... why are we entrusting the existence of Genghis Khan to an outside source and that of a Jewish man whom everyone knows had the bad tendency to skew facts in to epic? Why does a Jewish man qualify for Genghis Khan when a Roman man is for Julius Caesar? When a future article on Hitler is written , will we draw upon Mongolian sources or German sources? Seems very skewed and awkward to me.
So again , the list for the project is as follows so far - will be updated in the future
- current passage on the Births section needs to be explained further , simply pasting quotations from the source does not qualify for any standard format of writing that exists out there. You're not being bold here , that's another problem. State who he really was , and if such statements don't exist in your world then don't state anything at all. Be bold or go home.
- sources from the Secret History must be cited (don't tell me that there are none because there are)
- alternative perspectives must be included ... again don't say that there are none , the picture of Genghis Khan here on the article itself counts as one. there are ALWAYS alternative perspectives , no matter what subject . the current version is way too simplistic , it needs improvements , the list goes on.
Wernergerman ( talk) 23:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Good point siafu , I'm going to be making some good edits in the future based on actual sources. This man is from the east and the one source that is deemed credible by both you and yaan is the western text of Rashid Aldin's book Chronicles. This book was written to unify the Mongolian empire , particularly within the western hemisphere , to quell dissent for the most part so as to maintain a relatively stable empire.
'Note however, the apparent glitches within some of Rashid Aldin Hamadani's statements , in particular , where he describes Genghis being shocked that Kublai didn't inherit his red hair. '
- Just how heritable is red hair? Red hair is only inherited when both parents have red hair and even in this situation the chances are small that the offspring will inherit red hair. How does a red haired man who fathered millions of children in his lifetime not know that red hair isn't inherited easily? Why is he shocked that his son didn't inherit his red hair ? This particular statement by Aldin seems completely nonsensical and it seems demeaning if not insignificant. Shouldn't Rashid Aldin , who was of Jewish origin and in the western hemisphere have known that Red hair isn't easily heritable for any ethnic group? Especially when the father has red hair and the mother is a Mongoloid? With interracial marriages between caucasians and mongoloids , red hair is almost never inherited ...
If Genghis Khan had red hair he would have known that his son wouldn't have inherited his red hair since he had already fathered millions of children by this time. so how was he so utterly surprised that his son Kublai did not inherit his red hair? This statement may seem plausible for a Mongoloid in China however , with a caucasoid , it seems non-sensical that Genghis would be surprised that his red hair wasn't inherited with a child that he had with his Mongoloid wife.
Rashid Aldin was commissioned to write his book the way the Khans wanted it ... the purpose of the book was to unify the Mongol empire. The political purpose of the book was to help the Khans to remain in power. It became easier for people of that region to respect a man who had unique features such as red hair as opposed to a man who had mongoloid features. Aldin was commissioned to write the book in a way so that the people would hold the Mongols and Genghis Khan in good regard and so he altered Genghis Khan's appearance ... HOWEVER .... he did so cunningly , because he did not want to be historically inaccurate.
so he presented Genghis Khan as an epic figure with Red hair that would go well with groups that didn't know anything about the heritability of red hair , however he added that Genghis was shocked so that this statement would apparently be dubious to groups who knew about the heritability of red hair and thus groups who knew that Genghis should have known that his red hair wasn't easily heritable especially when he had fathered millions of offspring ... that is .... should he have actually had red hair.
More to come. Wernergerman ( talk) 00:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
You haven't answered any of my questions and your points (1 and 2) completely disregard information that's already out there ...
For the first point that you made , you should be able to visit the link here if you're truly that oblivious of Genghis Khan's reputation with women
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html
even should Genghis have had four children he should have known about the non-heritability of red hair .
To address your second point , individuals didn't need to master the work of Gregor Mendel to come to the realization that the trait of red hair was rare , so rare that even the offspring of two parents with red hair has a minor chance of inheriting the red hair. what matters here is the truth that red hair is a relatively non-heritable trait , and relatively speaking to other types of hair ... it's almost never inherited.
I don't really have a " beef " with that paragraph , I find that particular paragraph in question to be conspicuously awkward especially since it's suggesting that a statement that is obviously epic in form is literally true . Also , why on earth is wikipedia emphasizing the notion that Genghis had red hair and emphasizing this notion alone and not the prevalent one where he has black hair?
For those of you that are fretting - or perhaps working up some excitement - over Rashid Aldin Hamadani's references to what seems to be caucasoid ancestors of Genghis Khan should note that all of his statements aren't meant to be taken literally . There are some out there e.g. Earlson that are distorting statements that are actually epic in origin into something to be taken literally. The Chronicles is part epic and part historical , when Rashid Aldin meant for a statement to be taken in an epic sense , he employed Jewish forms of writing from his earlier training as a Jew. Take for example , his statement " Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair " ... there are some blatant flaws with it that need to be addressed should one want to take it literally :
- red haired people don't expect their offspring to inherit red hair , red hair is one of the least heritable traits out there. They certainly wouldn't be shocked over it , unless the individual is a lunatic , because it make no sense for anyone to even want their son to inherit their red hair that badly.
- Genghis fathered more children than any other individual in history. Thus , if he had red hair , he would have known that red hair isn't inherited easily. Thus he wouldn't have expected his son Kublai to have inherited his red hair ; this is in direct contradiction to what Rashid Aldin claimed to have happened - that Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair.
- Genghis being " shocked " seems out of character for a man of his stature. Genghis drew upon his information masterfully , so it matters little whether he had red hair or not , the bottom line is that he wouldn't have been overwhelmed by a matter so trivial and obvious as that of red hair.
So it matters very little whether Rashid Aldin claimed that Genghis' ancestors were glittering or whether Genghis was shocked that his son Kublai didn't inherit his red hair ... because none of it happened , Rashid Aldin was writing in an epic manner , a fact which is obvious when his statements don't fit the standards of something that was meant to be taken literally. Genghis was not shocked , and his ancestors were not actually " glittering " .
Again , I have much more to bring up , this entire argument is just one piece of the pie , meaning that there are many other simple ways to attack and discredit the notion that Genghis Khan had red hair or was part Caucasoid.
Wernergerman (
talk)
23:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Kublai was his Grandson, not his son.
In the section "uniting the confederations" it says
However, on the wikipedia page about Kerait, the year is given as 1183. That also seems more plausible in light of the timeline of the ascend of Genghis Khan. Can an expert confirm this and correct if necessary? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexbar ( talk • contribs) 04:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
he was not a chief, that is why he had to kidnap hoelun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.97.0 ( talk) 18:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
See The Secret History of the Monghol Queens: How the Daughters of Genghis Khan Rescued His Empire by Jack Weatherford Gwytherinn ( talk) 00:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
It's not surprising to see white historians try to claim an Asian figure that changed the world as white. If anything this just illustrates the need for Asians to take control of telling the history of their heritage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.158.114 ( talk) 12:49, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Genghis Khan is 100% Asian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.134.194 ( talk) 09:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC) ( I really do not know why people really do consider the race or the color of the skin.... He was a HUMAN and he had just believed in himself and that's it... I was very very lucky to be born as a MONGOLIAN) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nerguich ( talk • contribs) 02:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
1) His family/tribe name is Borjigin. In modern Turkish, this word means "Blue eyes", and in Mongol, it means gray eyes. However, according to "Compendium of history" that include an autography of biography of Borjigin family written by senior Persian officers of Mongol Empire, the author clearly indicated the word Borjigin come from Turkish that means "blue eyes". 2) According to "Secret history of Mongols", also written as official book of Mongol Empire, Borjigin is the name of an direct ancestor of Genghis Khan, who has blue eyes, "he has another name which means "silly guy". This person is the fourth son of his mother, who was born after her husband was dead. According to the book, when her other sons questioned the father of Borjigin, as an attempt to oust of his right of inheriting family's property, their mother answered, the son come from a "man-like-god" with "golden hairs" that came to her tent and mate her. IMO, it is likely an attempt to describe her love affair with an person with blond hair and blue eyes as an holy thing in order to protect his fourth son with similar characters. Therefore, the direct ancestor of Genghis Khan, Borjigin's father should be a Caucasian. 3) In the book “notandum for Mongol-Tartar”, written by a Chinese ambassador who met Genghis Khan, the author described face feature of the Tartars, which is extremely similar to modern Mongolians. However, he noted, The face feature of Genghis Khan is completely different from the others Mongol-Tartars, that seem to support the idea Genghis Khan himself might have a root of Caucasians, but his slaves/followers in his original tribe are much more similar to modern Mongols. Mongol is an tribe that contains slaves and masters. According to "Secrete history of Mongols", the slaves and their masters have different roots and even among the nobles, there might be different roots, e.x. Borjigin clearly have different roots from others. 4) I lost my memory about where this source come from, but I remember, Genghis Khan allegedly said the feature of his grandson, Kublai, did not show resemblance of his family, but of the mother of Kublai. He said the skin of Kublai was much darker among other dissimilarities. According to his portrait that available today, Kublai's had a typical face that we can see among modern Mongolians. Hisfun ( talk) 13:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Рашид ад-Дин. Сборник летописей / Пер. с персидского О. И. Смирновой,редакция проф. А. А. Семенова. — М., Л.: Издательство Академии Наук СССР, 1952
Alan Qoa's "glittering man" was not Kyrgyz nor was he blond haired and blue eyed. I highly suggest revising this there is no evidence its just speculation. Glittering man was a metaphor and is more symbolic/mythic than anything. As written in the Secret History of the Mongols, the most likely speculation with most evidence is the Bayad family servant Alan Qoa's husband adopted. Alan Qoa's sons even speculated that this Bayad(Mongol) man was the most likely father. Who here has proof that there was a random Kyrgyz or non-Mongol man walking around her pastures with her sons in the middle of Mongolia. Rash's claims are very biased but even if he happened to have a red tinge to his beard his Bayad ancestor is just as likely to have contributed than a Kyrgyz or divine messenger. I hope that people with actual editing rights have actually read the Secret History of the Mongols. I can't understand how anyone could take Rash's work seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.63.254 ( talk) 20:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
TO SAY THAT GENGHIS KHAN OR THE MONGOLS WERE ORIGINALLY CAUCASIAN IS AS FAR FETCHED AS IT GETS
As mentioned before numerous amounts of times (one of the editors here seems to have erased my contributions completely) , references to Rashid Aldin Hamadani's statements don't count as a literal source. In other words there was no such " glittering " man and Genghis Khan was certainly not " shocked " to find that his son didn't have red hair - red haired people don't get shocked when their children don't inherit their red hair because they don't even expect them to inherit it (recessive mutation - very unlikely that red hair is passed on) , Genghis should he have been a man with red hair would have known about the heritability of red hair since he fathered a lot of children. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html
Also note that the people in power within Mongolia are all of plain Mongoloid features , there's no telling them apart from the Chinese or other asiatics. Mongolians are Mongoloids or asiatics so to speak , if you want to change the notion of the Genghis Khan's ethnicity you'll need to alter the ethnic makeup of Mongols. I've noticed that this has already taken place in Wikipedia , Mongols , according to Wikipedia , are no longer the majority of East Asian people who reside and have lived in Mongolia , but mostly a race of mixed individuals outside of Mongolia itself who actually have expressed no desire to be labeled as Mongols. To say that Mongols were originally caucasian is as far fetched as it gets , especially when descriptions of Mongol appearance by ALL accounts (be it that they were caucasian or persian) were that they were grotesque , slant , larged headed , small stature.
Germans , Russians , people from Finland , Norwegians , Central Europeans , Slavics have East Asian DNA
All of the countries that were affected by Mongol invasions have been contaminated with East Asian DNA.
http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm . Heck even Rashid Aldin's text has all of people in the paintings with Mongoloid features.
East asians don't even have traces of caucasian DNA
China was raided more than any other country by the Mongols and yet none of them possess even traces of caucasian DNA. So how is it that Mongols were originally caucasoid , should they have been caucasoid then people of Chinese descent would reportedly have caucasian DNA ... just as we would expect Europeans to have East Asian DNA should the original Mongols be of East Asian ancestry and this is exactly what we find with modern day DNA tests.
Hisfun ( talk) 14:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm
Do I need to say more? To say that caucasians orginated the Mongol territory is far fetched. It can be dispelled with common sense. Even the so called " tocharian mummy " was a mix of genes from Europe, Mesopotamia, Central Asia, Mongolia, India, and Siberia. The composition of Europoid content was very little compared to East Asian genetic content and the presence of all of these other ethnic dna content is due to the fact that Xinjiang was a crossroad trade location.
WHO ARE THE ADVOCATES FOR THE ETHNIC ALTERATION OF GENGHIS KHAN AND WHAT ARE THEIR MOTIVATIONS?
It's pretty obvious where all of these distortions of Genghis Khan's ethnicity is coming from. It's from people who call themselves the " white people " , the slow alteration of Genghis Khan's ethnicity is part of a campaign to add significance and to make sense to the made up notion of a " white history " .
It's all a small but successive accumulation of mongrel creations. One white lie after another. Once established , this " white history " becomes an equalizing factor within the caucasian community , where picts are no longer " white slaves " but equal with the Nordics. The schemes goes something like this
Genghis Khan is part Nordic --> Genghis Khan was " white " --> His greatness is attributed to the fact that he was " white " or part " white " --> Picts are " white " (nevermind everything else) --> " white people " privilges have now substantially increased due to Genghis Khan
Please , please open up your own ancestry book instead of mongreling around in the affairs of countries that are at the other side of the world.
Wernergerman ( talk) 17:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Well "golden family" means "important family" or something like that, it does not refer to hair color. Also, even if there was a blond ancestor of Genghis Khan, this hair color would have completely disappeared after a couple of generations. Temur ( talk) 00:59, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
All contemporary paintings of the Mongols (especially from the Islamic world) depict the Mongols with Asian looks. The idea that Genghis Khan was white seems pretty far-fetched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.8.140.235 ( talk) 19:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Khan appeared in the film Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure. This should be listed under film.
Stevenellingson ( talk) 19:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Did you not know who I was talking about? It would have taken about as long to make the edit as it did to make your condescending response! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenellingson ( talk • contribs) 16:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I get it. But if I went to Henry VIII's page, and said that "King" played a prominent role in an American classic film, it would have gotten listed on his page. Stevenellingson ( talk) 21:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
STU SMITH ISNT REAL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhwinkgirl ( talk • contribs) 05:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like to know about meaning of the word Qinggiz/Chenggiz/Genghis? What does it mean? Every body knows Khan means king. I know when he was born his name is not Genggiz. Is Qinggiz Monggolian, Turkish, or Uyghur word? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.76.161.198 ( talk) 14:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
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In addition to pop culture, Genghis Khan is portrayed as a Pokemon, Kangaskhan. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Kangaskhan_(Pokémon)
BurderBurd ( talk) 00:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
"The invasions of Baghdad, Samarkand, Urgench, Kiev, Vladimir among others caused mass murders, such as when portions of southern Khuzestan were completely destroyed. His descendant, Hulagu Khan destroyed much of Iran's northern part and sacked Baghdad although his forces were halted by the Mamluks of Egypt. According to the works of the Persian historian Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, the Mongols killed more than 70 million people in Merv and more than 190 million in Nishapur. In 1237 Batu Khan, a grandson of Genghis Khan, launched an invasion into Kievan Rus'. Over the course of three years, the Mongols destroyed and annihilated all of the major cities of Eastern Europe with the exceptions of Novgorod and Pskov."
70 million in Merv and 190 million in Nishapur? Wow this just goes to show you how unreliable and preposterous wikipedia can be. Really now? 190 million people was probably half the population of the world during this time. How can wikipedia be taken seriously when they allow such non-sense like this to be displayed? And I wondered why my history professor was so strict against using wikipedia as a legitimate source, I understand completely now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.150.78 ( talk) 19:36, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Why is it that we even argue about Genghis being part Nordic when we all know that he was an essential agent in organizing the Mongol movement - a sequence of important events with each event effectively serving the purpose of eliminating Nordic expansion to the East and then pushing the Asiatic territorial possession to the West ... a race war.
1) Cease the Nordic expansion into Russia - bury the Nordic princes and have dinner right above the buried site with his Mongol compatriots . The Nordics were gaining control of Russia over the Slavs. It's a fact that without the Mongol movement , Russia may have been composed mostly of Nordics/Germans.
2) Enslave the Slavs , build a war machine e.g. " The Mongol Yoke "
3) Racially modify to the West - the " pushing " of East Asian genes to the west - according to recent research some parts of China were once composed of Caucasoids , however , as of this point even the Germans have been injected with East Asian DNA http://www.kerchner.com/pa-gerdna.htm
4) Increase the prevalence of East Asian DNA in the world over Nordic ones.
So is there an essential point in claiming that Genghis Khan was part Nordic? How can that be made significant since the entirety of the Mongol movement itself was a hellbent race war for the spread of East Asian genes at the cost of Nordic genes? Calmly ask yourself the following questions :
- How insane is it that a Nordic man would facilitate a race war against the Nordics ?
- How insane is it that East Asians , who practice ancestry worship , would be so inspired by a Caucasian Genghis so as to unite because of him when all of the contemporary examples of war in East Asia were fought by East Asians for the sole purpose of Asian supremacy and Asian defense ?
LMAO , a Nordic man slaying Nordic princes and then commanding East Asians to claim Western lands for East Asian offspring by raping German women. Just how degenerately sad and lackadaisical have some of us become with respect to ancestry that we prey on the ancestry of others and make up our own - all for the sake of enjoying a little bit of delusional euphoria induced by rewriting history the way we want it to be?
The prevalence of Eurasians , the traces of East Asian DNA in the Deutch , the anger towards East Asians and suspicions that the rape of German women resulted in some children being born with East Asian characteristics ... Europeans have been cornered genetically speaking by his campaigns , East Asians control and surround the heartland .... The Mongol movement was an anti-Nordic movement. There's no point in even saying that Genghis was Nordic because we all know in the definitive sense what the Mongol movement actually was - a movement that was undeniably not Nordic.
Again , the Mongol movement was a sequence of important events with each event effectively serving the purpose of eliminating Nordic expansion to the East and then pushing the Asiatic territorial possession to the West ... a race war. The Mongol movement is what's significant . Genghis could have been a 7 year old blonde pig tailed German girl and it wouldn't matter because the Mongol movement was effectively an anti-Nordic campaign.
Please erase the ridiculous remarks about Genghis having red hair and of his " glittering " ancestors. Genghis didn't have red hair and he wasn't surprised to find that Kublai didn't inherit it because red haired people don't expect their sons , or anyone else for that matter , to inherit red hair. Red hair isn't inherited easily.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:55, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
There is only one reason we argue about this and that is that you keep bringing it up. There is absolutely no one here, except for you, who has suggested that Genghis Khan was anything other than a Mongol. siafu ( talk) 16:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)Why is it that we even argue about Genghis being part Nordic...
And yet the births section of the wikipedia article has seemingly been dedicated towards attributing Genghis with caucasoid features. Why are all of the descriptions of him as a Caucasian still there? Especially when Aldin's statements are contradictory? Just to clear things up , is this what you meant by a " Mongol " ? Is your definition of a Mongolian someone whos part Caucasoid? I'm just asking because the wikipedia article on the Mongols seems to have been altered and skewed to portray the Mongols as part Caucasoid.
The Mongolians - the majority of the people who actually reside in the country of Mongolia and the members of the Mongolian government - are pretty clear on their race as well as the race of Genghis ... as simply East Asiatic . But they obviously don't know what they're talking about right? Because according to you they're actually part caucasians ... I mean despite the fact that they appear exactly like other Asians e.g. Japanese , Korean , Chinese. Would you appreciate it if a foreign group of a distinctly separate ethnicity , who obviously have no business in meddling in your ancestry , were spreading propagandas about your ethnicity e.g. Scottish are Africanoid , with the intent of altering it for the sake of serving their own delusional campaigns and fantasies? I'm sure that such an intrusive and mongrel endeavor would irk you ... somewhat , wouldn't it?
A Nordic man leading a race war against Nordics for the Asians. A Nordic man kills his own kind in order to help spread Asian genes all across Europe. Pure insanity. Again , the importance of Genghis Khan pales in comparison to the Mongol movement , a movement that was responsible for literally murdering Europe while it was still in its crib. You can play around with Genghis' ethnicity as much as you like , but the Mongol movement itself is in the definitive sense - anti-Nordic.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The lede was an absolute disaster of clutter, so I moved everything to the infobox. Now the infobox is cluttered, but I'll leave that to the people here. Generally when we have vital info, but which the reader doesn't need to know up front, or which the infobox does not accommodate well, we used <ref group="Note">
to move it to a note section at the bottom of the article, but kept separate from generic footnotes. If you need to add footnotes to the notes, instead use {{#tag:ref||group="note"}}
, which is available in your 'Wiki markup' edit window. —
kwami (
talk)
10:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Restored the reference, as in the context of the film he's one of the more important characters - he's (obviously) one of the borrowed historical figures, his actions - where he adapts modern sporting goods into armour & weapons - are a major contributor to him and the rest of the group being arrested and locked up. He also assists in the kidnap of George Washington, and finally, he loves Twinkies, because of the excellent sugar rush they provide.
My grounds for inclusion is always "would the plot deviate should a character be removed?" and in this case - yes it would, or at the very least another character would need to provide the actions of Khan instead of Khan himself - such as going berzerk in the store, or kidnapping Washington. a_man_alone ( talk) 15:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aomori#Tomb_of_Jesus_Christ
Jesus didn't actually go to the cross , his Japanese brother was crucified while Jesus enjoyed his life in Japan. So sayeth some Japanese apparently.
So which of the following articles is more insane?
A Japanese brother of Jesus Christ doing the honor of being crucified for Jesus Christ while Jesus Christ gets all the credit.
or
A caucasian man , so aptly described as Genghis Khan in this wikipedia article , with red hair amongst other things (Nordic) seeks to cease the Nordic invasion of Russia , enslaves Russians with the Mongol yoke , and then genetically spreads Asiatic genes in lands that once belonged to caucasoids. Yes folks , these three events actually happened. Genghis Khan was the central agent in organizing the Mongol movement which was effectively an anti-nordic movement in favor spreading Asiatic genes at the cost of Nordic ones. Yet , according to this article , he was Nordic. How insane is it that a Nordic man seeks to endow caucasian lands with asian genes even at the cost of genocide of the Nordic , the Nordic noble princes , and the caucasian slavs of Russia. How insane is it to even imagine that a Nordic or even a partly caucasian man had a dinner table filled with Asiatics and ate , drank , celebrated ... on a dinner table that was set right above the Nordic princes who were buried without being injured or killed and were perishing all the while this caucasoid Genghis Khan celebrated with the Asians above their incapsulated realm of darkness and misery?
So what's the utmost credible source that was selected by the lovely wikipedia editor who inserted this rather insane statement about a caucasoid genghis khan ? Here it is , it's a historian by the name of Rashid Aldin - an ethnically Jewish historian with Jewish training in writing who frequenlty had the habit of employing a partly epic storytelling fashion (a fashion meant to captivate the reader at the cost of portraying truth accurately) . He had written , in an epic fashion , that an aged Genghis Khan , a red haired man supposedly , was surprised to find that his son Kublai Khan didn't inherit his red hair. The wikipedia editor that's in question here has instead taken it all literally , to include it in his/her revisionist version of history , at the cost of bastardizing the ancestry of the Mongolians.
Genghis Khan fathered more children then anyone else in history , and yet , a red haired man with lots and lots of children doesn't know that red hair isn't inherited very well. LMAO and INSANITY.
Wernergerman ( talk) 16:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes clearly it's insane and bias, since all the mongolians with light hair and eyes with varieties of colors all look completely asiatic. How come the wikipedia editor doesn't have the guts to mention this? instead of misleading everyone like he was an caucasian man. Here check out the mongols with 100% asiatic/mongoloid face with red hair,blue eyes, green eyes,blonde hair...whatever you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:31 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Rashid al Din is considered an insider in the Mongol Empire's bureaucracy who would have personally known Kublai Khan's brothers, Hulegu and Mongke. You act like Rashid al Din is some Goldhagen guy at Harvard, trying to make a name for himself in the 21st century by writing some inflamatory revisionist piece of tripe. Good try, buddy. Juzjani is a Northern Indian historian who saw Genghis Khan face to face. Maybe you should check out what he said in his Tabaqat i Nasri written during Genghis Khan's lifetime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.159.210 ( talk) 05:21, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
So is that an good excuse to mislead everyone into thinking he's caucasian? when his dna haplgroup ancestry is proven to C3, this an mongoloid paternal marker. Also...why didn't the wiki editors have the guts to mention the 100% asiatic/mongoloid face with red hair,blue eyes, green eyes,blonde hair? The editing sound so misleading...sorry to break your dream of genghis khan being an aryan when you watch this video...youl all the mongolians inherit such traits today look like mongoloid people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY - WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:34 15 September 2011 (UTC)
=====What is this video supposed to show? Its common sense, and accepted that asian people do not have light eyes and hair, it is not natural occuring in their race UNLESS their are white ancestors for those people, thousand of years ago. The Tocharians and Yuezhi, as well as the Cumans all had caucasian features - they were caucasian (Iranic) and lived in the area inhabitted by chinese and mongols, so it is petty logical to figure that they would have mixed and left their genes among the people. What is so difficult to understand. It is difficult for people who are nationalistic or racist to understand. Go read up carefully on the history of caucasian presence in these areas. Also, these people in the video could have mixed with Russians or Cumans long ago, when the Russian empire existed. So it is possible that Genghis Khan had caucasian features, since the caucasian nations which I mentioned inhabitted the area, if past reports say he had caucasian features than why do you put down those reports? If there are such reports then it is reporting what the people saw, what is so unbelievable about that?
===== take a look at this from another site: According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men).
The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan; Alans were iranic with caucasian features). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan.
Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard.We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan:
"He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back."
Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesukai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes.
Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed".
As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes.
Another of Genghis Khan's descendants, the great conqueror Tamerlane (1336-1405), also inherited Nordish racial characteristics. According to a contemporary, Ibn Arabshah, Tamerlane was tall and strong, with broad shoulders, a large head and high forehead, he had a heavy beard, was white-skinned and had a ruddy complexion. He also seems to have been fair-haired. This description has been confirmed in recent times. In 1941, the Soviet Archaeological Commission opened the tomb of Tamerlane, which resides in the city of Samarkand, Uzbekistan. Within it, Tamerlane's physical remains were discovered: they proved that he had indeed been a man of strong build and imposing stature. Most interestingly of all however, the last few hairs of a reddish-brown moustache were found adhering to the skull.
===I dont see why these reports are ignored? So what if he had caucasian features - what is so bad about that? That does not diminish his achievements; which leads one to think that maybe the people with negative comments are racist to caucasians or something, with bias and prejudice. I dont understand, what is so bad if he had caucasian features? Here we have reports but people ignore them, which is biased and erranous and unscientific. If there were caucasian tribes such as the Tocharians, Yuezhi and Cumans then why cant some Asians have white ancestry - is that hard to understand or something. Think clearly on what I said and despel any biased, nationalistic and racist views that you might have as that will get no results. One must examine ALL evidence and make hypothesis/conclusions as such
Because Asians don't have bits of caucasian dna like the caucasians do, Germans have Asian DNA , the Chinese , Mongolians, Japanese , don't even have traces of Caucasian dna.
Most of the insistence on behalf of the European nations that Genghis was East Asian comes from assessments of his actions. The actions and behavioral patterns of Genghis Khan and the cultures and genes that he so explicitly and dramatical spread throughout the world - is East Asian.
Genghis Khan's Mongol movement and its contributions are of the following
- spread of East Asian genes to the west at the cost of Nordic genes (Nordics were moving towards Russia at that time)
- spread of East Asian culture
- a buffer zone of Eurasians from European invasions
- Forcing Europeans to move westward in their endeavors
So , why some Nordicists , want Genghis Khan to be partially or wholly " white " doesn't quite make sense to me. He did so many things for the Asians, he even set up a dinner table above a spot where Russian princes were buried alive , and enjoyed a feast with his Mongol compatriots there. How insane is it to even imagine a scenario where a Nordic man is being merry in the company of East Asians all the while knowing that people of his own kind were perishing right beneath him. It's a wonder why some people can't be content with one ancestry , they have to claim every ancestry that's prominent. It's completely mongrel behavior.
Rashid Aldin's text , ironically , is filled exclusively with pictures of East Asiatics , the book is essentially a world history text with the focal point of East Asians , how dominant would they have to have been at the time in order for historical texts to be completely based on them?
And again, Aldin's statements e.g. Kublai and red hair , are inherently contradictory. He was a Jewish writer employing Jewish forms of writing towards composing an epic styled text. Wernergerman ( talk) 19:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Even if he had red hair and blue eyes he would have looked completely 100% mongoloid. Check out this link where you can see variety of mongols with 100% asiatic face with blonde hair, red hair blue eyes, green eyes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
Yet for some reason the wiki editor doesn't want to mention this? how more misleading can you get to make people think that genghis khan was an nordic man with that post? WarriorsPride6565 (talk) 6:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorsPride6565 ( talk • contribs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY
The description on Genghis Khan birth section is very misleading, while I don't deny historical records. The description make's it sound like was an white people, when in fact some modern mongols today also display these physical characteristics and yet look 100% mongoloid in appearance. Also genghis khan belong to the genetic haplogroup C3, this means his paternal ancestry was mongoloid for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorsPride6565 ( talk • contribs) 13:02, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
====Read the above comment (at the bottom) - there were caucasian people that lived in the area long ago and mixed with certain people, that is where the light eyes and hair comes, obviously not a natural mongol trait. Also how would they know Genghis Khan's haplogroup if his grave was never found - then there will be no genetic sample
Could the author please fix footnote nr. 3. "Also known as Thomas Du" (very funny) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.168.4 ( talk) 02:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for the heads up. Boneyard90 ( talk) 20:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the Nordicist joke from the section on his birth. First of all, it's about his birth, not hearsay mythology from a non-contemporary historian. Second, the source ITSELF doubts the account. Third, his paternal DNA marker is Northeast Asian - C3.
It's surprising (not really) that this stood for so long. I will be checking back frequently, and it will be deleted once more if any resident Nordicists want to bend Wiki conventions yet again. Huaxia ( talk) 19:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Furthermore the supposed "ancestress" is a legend as well. The framing of the traits the ancestor was supposed to have possessed in such an especially unrelated topic misleads the reader into believing Genghis Khan was some kind of Aryan posterboy. Thus the passage fails to meet standards on yet another aspect, and this time it's "relevance" - beyond the unreliable secondary source, and unreliable primary source. The mythological origins of the Borjigit clan have no place in a section detailing Temujin's birth or even his early life - nor does his alleged surprise at his son's alleged complexion. Huaxia ( talk) 21:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Again, why would you want a man who did so many bad things to the Europeans at the cost of doing good things for the Asiatics , to be European or even partially European. If the Europeans would have even had a hint that he was caucasoid, there would be no telling how many books we would have had over investigations on such a sensational topic. Genghis Khan was responsible for the spread of Asiatic genes and Asiatic culture , why , my god why would we want him to be Caucasian?
Genghis Khan and his Mongol movement was the responsible for the pinnacle events of mass introduction of East Asian culture and ethnicity to the European sphere. Before him, not many in Europe were concerned with the Asiatics, after him however , it was the introduction of Asiatic fear to the Europeans. Wernergerman ( talk) 20:21, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Other considerations
- The Mongols were responsible for initiating the pan-european movement (renaissance) in the European sphere. As well as anti-asiatic campaigns. The Mongols , and all of the connotations of the word Mongol , have been in references to people with Asiatic features. The word itself invokes strong - antiasiatic - emotional reactions for Europeans everywhere. The notion of the Mongols is essentially synonomous with the entire notion of who the Asians are for all of the Europeans. This isn't a learned notion fed to the people via textbooks , EUROPEAN FEAR OF THE ASIATIC IS AN INGRAINED REACTION. This immense emotional reaction of fear as well as the realization on the need for awareness of what's going on in Asia has been established into the European people themselves after the Mongol raids to make certain that Europeans don't have to encounter situations of possible extinction again. Now ask yourself, would a people of bigger stature , more magnificient appearance , and an elite culture really come to fear Asians just by being brainwashed via an unrelenting regimen of reading textbooks and listening to speeches? No , this fear is of greater importance , it has been ingrained. Because Europeans have come to the realization that the matter of their existence is at stake when dealing with the Asians. Remember the central lesson of the Mongol raids , Europe was essentially destroyed after the battle of Battle of Legnica.
- should the Mongols have been caucasian or even part caucasian before , they are certainly not at this point , an overwhelming majority of them are plain and simply Asiatic. I don't believe that I've ever encoutered a case where one ethnic group takes over another and then subsequently steals their ethonym. And to suggest that these Asiatics stole the ethonym by outcompeting what supposedly was a caucasoid ethnic group is ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS.
Wernergerman ( talk) 21:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
in the section of his early life, the sentence "They abandoned Olen and her children" is written incorrectly, and 'olen' is highlighted as a link incorrectly. the reference should be to "hoelun", which is mentioned in the next sentence. the correct mention of "hoelun" instead of "olen" is not highlighted as a link as it should be. Patric627 ( talk) 06:28, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
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In the article on Genghis Kahn, it states that the Mongols "...sacked the Genoese trade-fortress of Caffa in Crimea...". Based on the Wiki artical on Feodosiya, Caffa was actually ruled by the Republic of Venice during the time of the Mongolian invasion.
R larocque ( talk) 14:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I had a look around and it is confusing, I found this http://history.cultural-china.com/en/46H2406H11140.html - which supports Genovese. But like I say, it is confusing and they seem to have swapped around a bit. I looked at the other wiki articles and the detail there was uncited. It's around 1219 or 1220 that we are discussing yes? Could you please provide a WP:RS for your claim as another wiki article is not a reliable source. I will watch this article for further discussion - Also feel free to provide a reliable source for your desired alteration and make another edit request, thanks - Youreallycan ( talk) 17:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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Probably H.G. Wells´Outline of History, or Plantagenet Somerset Fry´s "Children´s History of the World" refer that Chinggis Khan had established a customs´union and sought to suppress vendettas at a rather young age and that therefore the Kin Emperor objected and threatened him with an action which could in those days could already have meant a fate comparable to that of the ambiguously named Dzungars still later Deborahaltar ( talk) 21:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC) Deborahaltar ( talk) 21:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
in Turkish. Böri ( talk) 09:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
a rather young man and make common trade between nomads and all towns possible and help women and the poor, this was mentioned I think in the Children´s History of the World by Plantagenet Somerset Fry or the Outline of History by H.G. Wells, it is important to make a subject when at world history level not a fetish but close to the facts as possible and fully revealing its advancement for its period of history and the nature of the people wherever, otherwise people at large will set no store by it as international heritage and part of humanity. Furthermore secondary wives were merely described in the Old Mongol language of the Niucha Mongqol-un Tovcha´an as Noekegin, feminine of Noeke translated as similar to "drug/druzhinhki" in other words as "Friend", "Freundin", "Amie", "Amiga". The upheaval of the Great Mongol State as under the meanings of Mongol "brave" or "Mengwu Shiwei" cost about less than twenty percent of the lives of some twentieth century progress, without such sacrifices ordinary people would not manage to effect this transformations. DeborahAltar 77.54.181.54 ( talk) 23:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.181.54 ( talk) 23:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I mean that the Children´s History of the World by Plantagenet Somerset Fry or the Outline of History by H.G. Wells did clearly mention his intent of a customs union and to stop vendettas, this has also appeared in 20th century accounts of Temujine. I also mean that this topic is one of world history, and therefore should be presented clearly and consistently, including all the amazing advanced progress it contained in a simple structure from some points of view. I also want to differentiate via linguistic evidence of the times, Mongol gender relations as being rather closer to the friend basis, also being transferrable, and later openly reported even to have at times women with discreetly more than one male partner but visibly so, in the least humanly developed and complicated fashion. The upheavals associated with the Great Mongol (meaning brave or Mengwu Shiwei) State a term close to that of the Great Mongol Army or it might be Great Mongol Fighters being by the Plantagenet Somerset Fry estimate lower than that of some of the 20th century upheavals, although some estimates vary but appeared to be based on some phobias. These sacrifices are needed for such transformations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborahaltar ( talk • contribs) 22:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Still in 1224 there was also the 1224 Battle of the River Khalka. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deborahaltar ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi, The section in the page that collates the fictional works about Genghis does not contain an American Novel called "The Earth Is the Lord's (1941)" by the American novelist Taylor Caldwell ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Caldwell). This should be added. Regards. Baidurya chakrabarti ( talk) 17:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)Baidurya Baidurya chakrabarti ( talk) 17:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
The sentence: "The name would imply skill as a blacksmith.", and the sentence beginning the next paragraph: "More likely, as no evidence has survived to indicate that Genghis Khan had any exceptional training or reputation as a blacksmith..." is illogical, since (in the lead) he is "born Temujin" (newborns don't have any skills (except pooping and crying)). These two paragraphs should merge so that it reads something like:
There is no point in discussing what it DOESN'T mean. ~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
20:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, this section (and others) seem disordered, usually the 'In popular culture' stuff goes after the informational stuff.
There is a documentary by ORF (Austrian Broadcasting Corporation) in their Unversum Documentary series titled Genghis Khan: Rider of the Apocalypse. I haven't tracked down a 'reliable source' for this, but it can be found on Hulu:
ORF Universum Documentaries / Season 1 : Ep. 19 (52:52)
~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
21:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
This article needs to be tidyied up. A lot of it is badly written. What, for instance, does "This incident cemented his position as a prisoner for manslaughter" mean? What do the dates on this page mean? Are they BCE or CE? Gregorian (or Julian) calendar or Chinese? GeorgeHarnish ( talk) 13:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I second the complaints. Where are the footnotes? and use primary source material if you are going to make outrageous idiotic claims. This article is infuriating beyond belief.
My apologies for being such a grammar-nazi, but somebody has to do it! ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 03:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be some white supremacists trying to claiming national Mongolian hero by taking advantage of the fact that this wikipedia mentioned of Al Rashidi descriptions about Genghis Khan. At the same time the editor is bias to remove any information of him being Mongoloid creating so much confusion and misunderstanding among some forum. I would have to tell others to report to the Wikipedia admins and moderator on this page. Evidence of Mongolians and Hmong who inherit green eyes, blue eyes, red hair, blonde hair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCN8lVJSNY Please do not remove information that I have edited to counter Euro-centrist racist and wild claims of other's people history. WarriorsPride6565 ( talk (talk • contribs) 11:06, 8 march (UTC)
The image used to depict Ghenghis Khan (Chingiz Khan) and his family (wife and four sons) is in fact: "
Tumanba Khan, His Wife, and His Nine Sons" (English title of painting). It is from a Chingiznama (Book of Genghis Khan); a
Mughal painting from the illustrated manuscript, folio :
Jāmiʿ al-tawārīkh, author: Basawan. Artist: Bhim Gujarati; (ca.1596); commissioned by the court of the Emperor of Hindustan, Akbar the Great.
~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
06:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Update: that image is actually a modern copy by artist Kailash Raj, and was sold as Item Code: ME80 -- This reproduction (copy) is derived from a Chingiznama, an original can be seen at the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art, where it has the following description (emphasis mine):
Please try to see this from the perspective of the artist:
Imagine creating a work of art requiring considerable skill, talent, time and effort -- only to see an image of your work in the wrong context and attributed to another artist. ~Eric F
184.76.225.106 (
talk)
16:36, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Some of the sections linking to a 'Main article' need to be more concise in summarization, especially the 'Khwarezmian Empire' section. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 01:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
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Please change
"Accounts of Genghis Khan's life are marked by claims of a series of betrayals and conspiracies. These include rifts with his early allies such as Jamuhha (who also wanted to be a ruler of Mongol tribes) and Wang Khan (his and his father's ally), his son Jochi, and problems with the most important shaman, who was allegedly trying to drive a wedge between him and his loyal brother Khasar. His military strategies showed a deep interest in gathering good intelligence and understanding the motivations of his rivals as exemplified by his extensive spy network and Yam route systems. He seemed to be a quick student, adopting new technologies and ideas that he encountered, such as siege warfare from the Chinese. He was also ruthless, as demonstrated by his measuring against the linchpin tactic used against the tribes led by Jamukha."
in the section _Uniting the confederations_
The (unreferenced) statements above are sandwiched between two contiguous paragraphs of much greater relevancy. The information within is also detailed in other areas of the article.
97.83.30.92 ( talk) 22:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry - please remove the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.83.30.92 ( talk) 00:11, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
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elektrik
SHOOS (
talk)
23:35, 30 April 2012 (UTC)Khazakhians please , theory is a theory , fact is fact . Don't try convince theory is a fact . Use indepenedent refers. WWW.nobodynothis site.kz is not a proof . Scientist should have worldwide trustworth .Refers should be in English . Sirmolenko ( talk) 12:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Khazakhians please , theory is a theory , fact is fact . Don't try convince theory is a fact . Use indepenedent refers. WWW.nobodynothis site.kz is not a proof . Scientist should have worldwide trustworth .Refers should be in English . Sirmolenko ( talk) 13:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
It must be said, that there are many pro-Chinese and Persian falsifications of the "wild nomads" etc. about the origin of Genghis Khan and his Power in the official History. Primarily we should know the truth about the meaning of the names "Mongol" and "Tatar" (“Tartar") in the medieval Eurasia: the name "Mongol" at least until the 17th-18th centuries meant belonging to a political community, and was not the ethnic name. While “the name "Tatar" was “the name of the native nation of Genghis Khan …” , “… Genghis Khan and his people did not speak the language, which we now call the "Mongolian”…" (Russian academic-orientalist V.P.Vasiliev, 19th century). All of this is confirmed by many little-known facts from Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Tatar, Turkish and West European historical sources. Only this theme about Genghis Khan, rather, the truth about his origin, his native ethnos and his affairs was taboo - as in official history of the Romanov's, so and during the Soviet-Bolshevik regime. A well-grounded rebuttal of these chinese-persian myths about "incredible cruelty of nomadic mongol-tatar conquerors", and about "a war between the Tatars and Genghis Khan", as well as a lot of from the real Tatar (Turkic) History you can learn in the book "Forgotten Heritage of Tatars" (by Galy Yenikeyev), published by Smashwords. There are a lot of previously little-known historical facts, as well as 16 maps and illustrations in this book. This e-book you can easily find in the Internet, on Smashwords company website: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/175211
On the cover of this book you can see the true appearance of Genghis Khan. It is his lifetime portrait. Notes to the portrait from the book says: "...In the ancient Tatar historical source «About the clan of Genghis-Khan» the author gives the words of the mother of Genghis-Khan: «My son Genghis looks like this: he has a golden bushy beard, he wears a white fur coat and goes on a white horse» [34, p. 14]. As we can see, the portrait of an unknown medieval artist in many ways corresponds to the words of the mother of the Hero, which have come down to us in this ancient Tatar story. Therefore, this portrait, which corresponds to the information of the Tatar source and to data from other sources, we believe, the most reliably transmits the appearance of Genghis-Khan...". Antonio von Horde ( talk) 12:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC) Antonio von Horde ( talk) 12:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks for your reply. But it must be said that many facts prove, that the thesis "the Tatars were the enemy of Genghis Khan" was invented by Chinese historians-ideologists in the second half of the 14th century. These Chinese historians were ideologists of those of Chinese politicians, who fought then against the Tatars of the Horde in China. After anti-Tatar data of the composition "about the war Tatars against the Chingiz-Khan" etc. was repeated by Persian politician Rashid ad-Din, who was an enemy of the Tatars of the Golden Horde. I.e. the ideologues of enemies of the Tartars Horde was cleverly used the name of a political community "Mongol" and the ethnic name "Tatar" - after all, these two names were often used together - for example, as the names "Russian" and "Soviet" not so long ago.
Actually, Tatars knew and remembered that Genghis Khan was their ancestor and tribesman since ancient times. Besides, this is stated in many ancient sources - about it is spoken as in the Tatar historical sources, so in many sources of other Nations: Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Turkish and West European. For example, many sources of those times reported that "Tatars are a Turkic tribe, and their king is the Chingiz-Khan" (Arabic Ibn al-Asher, 1219), "in 1187 Tatars had elected a King for themselves, whose name was Genghis-Khan" (Marco Polo, 13-th century), "Tatar's Khan Temuchin declared himself as Emperor and Tatars named his "Genghis-Khan" (a lot of Chinese sources). Such sources, I repeat, are very much, but they are not very known to the General public at the present time. And many of them have been interpreted wrongly.
“…As reported a medieval Persian author, in 1219 the Khorezmshakh's troops went on their last campaign "against the people of Tatar Kadir-khan, the ruler of the Kimak Khaganate". And soon the whole huge army of the Khorezmshakhs was defeated, and their state was destroyed. This happened because "Tatars, led by their King of Chingiz-khan, entered into this war and attacked the troops of the Khorezmshakh" - tells a contemporary of those events, the Arab Ali ibn al-Athir.
Many ancient sources report, that the Tatar states were in those days also on the territories of modern China - on Eastern Turkistan, or Uyghurstan - and further east. There the Tatars settled along the Great Silk Road. This was also reported by Ibn al-Athir. He also wrote that Kharezmshakh, before his army and state were defeated by the Tatars, gave the order to rob and kill the Tatar merchants, which came with the goods from China, and thereafter «undertook a campaign to the Tatar dwelling places, and captured their women and children». (75), (37).
The rulers of several states, located then on the territories of modern China, apparently, also could not tolerate competition from the side of the Tatars on the Great Silk Road. At that time the most aggressive was the Jin Empire in this region.
In 1219 certain Maine-hun was in the General Headquarters of the Tatars as an ambassador from Southern China. He wrote: "Jhin Emperor every three years sent troops far to the West for the plunder and destruction of the Tartars". <…> Finally, the Tatar Emperor Ginghis, who had long suffered from the annoyance of those attacks on his people, gathered a great army and in a single year smashed those robbers of the Jhin" (translated by V. Vasiliev) (20) (37).
So before the "era of Chingiz-Khan", as we see, the position of the Tatars was pretty heavy. It turned out so, that Tatars were competitors for the nobility of the Middle and Far East on the Great Silk Road. Thus, they sent their troops against the Tatars from the south-west and from the east.
But then the situation had changed. The above-mentioned Armenian chronicler Maghakia (XIII century) wrote: "From the Tatars we heard, that at one time, when they were very exhausted by troubles, they suddenly struck a sensible idea: They called on the help of God, and gave Him a great oath to keep His commandments forever. Then came to them an Angel from God in the form of an eagle with golden wings, and, speaking their language, summoned their chief, whose name was Chingiz. The Eagle told him all the commandments of God in their native language”. Further Maghakia reports: “Among these divine laws, which the angel ordered to Genghis, were these: "First is this: to love one another, and secondly: do not commit adultery, not steal, not bear false witness, do not betray anyone (not deceive placed his trust); respect the aged and poor. And the angel commanded the Tatars to rule over many regions and countries and to multiply in huge quantity. And so it happened. These divine laws, which brought the angel from God, Tatars called "Yasak" in their own language”. (52).
It should be explained that "Yasak" this is a slightly distorted old Tatar word "Yazug", another version of this word is "Yazu". In the modern Tatar language is applied the following variant of this word: "Yazu". It literally means "the Scripture ".
Maghakia, as we can see, reports from the words themselves Tatars that Chingiz-Khan united them into a powerful state on the basis of fair and humane laws set out in the Great Yazu. Many facts speak about this, when considered them objectively (38). The Great Yazu of Chingiz-Khan was the main Code of the Great Horde, which can be called the first Constitution in the history of Eurasia. This code of honor, dignity and excellence of virtue, above all, established the following: "One must honor and respect the innocent, fair, scholars, and wise men, to whatever people they may belong; and to condemn the vile, wicked and the unjust people" (Ab-ul-Faraj). And “first of all Chingiz-Khan himself strictly observed the norms of the Great Yazu” (Akhmet Zeki Validi Togan)…” (from the book "Forgotten Heritage of Tatars" - by Galy Yenikeyev). See on Smashwords company website: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/175211 Antonio von Horde ( talk) 17:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC) Antonio von Horde ( talk) 09:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Contemporary Mongolians clearly prefer Chinggis over Genghis, not only because it reflects Mongolian pronounciation more closely, but also because it matches the Cyrillic version, Чингис хаан (see for example, http://mn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%81_%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B0%D0%BD) much better. The Genghis pronounciation is one that - to my knowledge - does not exist in Mongolian and is misleading, even though it is somewhat established in English. The Chinggis romanization is begining to be used more widely, see for example the Wikipedia page on Chinggis Khaan Intl Airport ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinggis_Khaan_International_Airport). At the very least, I would suggest acknowledging the misleading romanization of Genghis somewhere on the page and pointing to the contemporary preference for Chinggis would be helpful. This is like moving from Peking to Beijing in usage, it takes some time, but is the appropriate thing to do. Jdierkes ( talk) 15:19, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
It must be noted at the head of the article that it's ancient name in Russian chronicles - Орда (Horde, Army) and царство Ордынское (Czardom of Horde) or царство Татарское (Tatar Czardom). There was no such term as "Mongol Empire" - this is modern term. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Society of Czardom of Horde is classical example of multinational society like modern society of Europe (Western Eurasia) or many other societies of the world. It it not the society of "Mongol nation", "Tatar nation" or "Kazak nation" because under terms "Mongol", "Tatar", "Kazak" designated people of different nations, religions and social classes just the same as in time of Russian Empire all it's people in European sources were "Russians" and in Soviet Union all it's people were "Soviets". Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Czar Gengis in fact created new multinational "military nation" from people of different nations who became the warriors of his multinational Army-Horde and thats why citizens of his new state (Czardom of Horde). In different sources represantatives of this "nation" is known under the names Mongols, Tartars (Tatars) or Cossacks which in beginning meant the same - "free people", "free people by the will of God", "free warriors", "free citizens of Horde society". Later this model was sucessfully used in Russian Empire and in Soviet Union (creation of "Soviet nation" by Soviet leaders, among them - Joseph Stalin). This model also has parallels with society of Roman Empire where all free citizens of different origin were "Romans" or modern Europe (society of European Union) where all citizens are "Europeans". It must be mentioned in article. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The article is inconsitent in Temüjin vs Temujin. Which is correct?
Temüüjin is the correct form, Темүүжин AptitudeDesign ( talk) 20:50, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
AS Jengiz or Chingiz Чингиз Хаан is known only to Anglophones who cannot recognise Italian orthography { Genghis}, as "Ghenghis", I see no point in encouraging the mispronounciation. AptitudeDesign ( talk) 21:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
This map shown in article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Asia_1200ad.jpg
Where does it come from? Thanks
Al Hendrike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.154.7 ( talk) 06:39, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
From here: http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html. -- ¿3fam ily6 contribs 15:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Among the descendants and distant relatives of Gengis you can see people of many religions, nations, countries and social classes. Among his descendants - famous political leaders of different epochs in the countries of Central Eurasia (among them first of all - Russian Empire but also Chineese Empire, Crimean Khanate, Zaporozhian Cossack Army etc.). Among his descendants - famous Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Buddhist saints, teologists and philosophers, poets and writers, founders of new cities, travelleres and military leaders. Russian (Moscow) great princes and czars beginning from Ivan Kalita to Ivan the Terrible are direct descendants of czar Gengis. So we must say about the descendance of dynasties between Czardom of Horde and Czardom of Russia (Russian Empire). It must be also mentioned in the head of the article i think. Serge-kazak ( talk) 22:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
"identified a Y-chromosomal lineage present in about 8% of the men in a large region of Asia (about 0.5% of the world total). The paper suggests that the pattern of variation within the lineage is consistent with a hypothesis that it originated in Mongolia about 1,000 years ago. Because the rate of such a spread would be too rapid to have occurred by genetic drift, the authors propose that the lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, and that it has spread through social selection" The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols -- It is impossible that there are 15 million descents.Don't you think that it is too dubious estimate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.4.251 ( talk) 06:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)