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before you revert me yet again, notice what i added to back it up. what wrong with what i have now? Urthogie 04:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Is this page really nessisary? Isn't it just genderqueer with obsanity tacked onto it for "shock value"? Arcuras 19:29, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Since when does is "fucking" mean "toyed" or "jest" or whatever? "Fucking" is an obscenity and has no definition,they have no meaning but to offend. Anyway, id iimagine the closest definition refers to sexual intercourse.
After recent arguments about which stub category this belongs in 9and I agree with AlexR that the ones previously given are far from accurate), I have changed this to fashion-stub. My argument for this is that Genderfuck is a deliberate fashion or style choice, albeit a deliberately provocative one. If anything, it's most easily comparable with the deliberate public wearing of bondage and fetish gear during the punk era of the late 1970s. Grutness| hello? 06:51, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lectonar 12:01, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of genderfuck or anything related that I can find in the article on Annie Lennox, nor is there (obviously) any reference in this page. Perhaps it's obvious to some, but it seems much less obvious than other performers listed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.69.27.232 ( talk) 08:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
Agreed - before someone is 'claimed' for this absurdly irrelevant article, perhaps some citation of them identifying/being identified with this term should be provided. Izzard, for example, calls himself an 'executive" or "action" transvestite - a witty term unlike this article's puerile version. How about deleting the whole thing? Malick78 09:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. To me, it seems you're determined to remove anything from this article that doesn't meet a standard that should be reserved for articles that are more developed. This is a stub class article and I find your edits more harmful than helpful. The article needs expanding not removal of any idea that doesn't meet a strict WP standard no matter how technically correct. I'm finding it hard to see your edits as constructive rather than disruptive.
The LGBT wikiproject writes:
"The article is either a very short article or a rough collection of information that will need much work to bring it to A-Class level. It is usually very short, but can be of any length if the material is irrelevant or incomprehensible. Possibly useful to someone who has no idea what the term meant. May be useless to a reader only passingly familiar with the term. At best a brief, informed dictionary definition. Any editing or additional material can be helpful."
An article in its genesis needs more help for a general reader to relate to it not less. Annie Lennox, David Bowie and pop music icons are a good resource point for general readers to be able to understand what the article is talking about. The [Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence] are certainly genderfuckers so even if the resource has not yet been unearthered hardly means the very suggestion should be enpunged. This article is now five sentences thanks to your diligent effort. Benjiboi 17:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, if I get the chance, I'll clean up this page. Some of the sources I will be using include,
I'll also have a look around the local library for books on the matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AFA ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
The term "genderfuck" is used in the following academic articles (I'm happy to e-mail you copies if plan to use them to expand the article)
Also, searching using the term "genderfuck" in my University library turns up a hit for this book:
Pete.Hurd 21:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Seriously...is "Genderfuck" the actual name of this concept? I mean, it sounds sort of lay-man to me. It's even got a cuss built right into it, and I don't know the formal name for anything that has a cuss in it. Surely there must be a better, more formal name for this concept than simply "Genderfuck"? I mean, would you really flip through an encyclopedia under G and find the word Genderfuck in it? I think not... 24.15.53.225 02:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
"Scientific/formal name"?! A few articles have that, but it's not a general principle (nor is genderfuck a term, primarily, of psychology). What are the "formal" names for, e.g. Hip hop, Rock and roll or Jazz, all of which terms originate as (somewhat vulgar) slang? LotLE× talk 18:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
"Gender-Bending" was mentioned in this discussion, and seems a more appropriate and commonplace term. You hear "gender-bender" or "gender-bending" used in journalism and the media to describe what this article appears to be about. That seems like the correct and appropriate term. Further, it actually links to this article for some reason, even though there's no discernible difference between the two. Perhaps this article should be merged to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.125.188 ( talk) 10:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for deletion because it is patent nonsense. It is a repetition of "genderqueer" with a profanity used simply for shock value. If it is a valid term, it is not sufficiently notable to be included in an encyclopaedia; and WP is not a dictionary. The article is unsourced and no evidence is provided for the claims made. 87.127.44.154 10:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the new addition "List of musicians..." to be really amateurish looking. Without specific discussion of why they are included or how they relate to the topic, such lists are vacant verbiage. It would be so much better to add any artist who is relevant to the actual body of discussion, with explanation of how or why that specific person relates to the concept 'genderfuck'. LotLE× talk 00:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow, the whole premise of genderfuck is unabashedly pretentious beyond most things i've seen. It's completely prideful in a self-conscious way, how has it not drawn criticism from the LGBT community for it's elitist and smug pretentious attitude?. Michigan Frog ( talk) 20:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Genderfuck. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this redirect. You may wish to ask factual questions about Genderfuck at the Reference desk. |
-- Banjeboi 20:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This article uses profane language and should be taken off Wikipedia and is abhorrent. I nominate for deletion on the grounds that is cruelly offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.104.235 ( talk) 05:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree. There might as well be a page for "Cocksucker" and "Pussyeater". I mean this is ridiculous!
This was actually already on here. We just re-wrote it. I am sorry if this is offensive to you. But you do not have to look at it. This is something that is crucial to gender studies, queer theory and feminism. That is why it was a stub and needed revisions. Mhoward058 ( talk) 20:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Mhoward058, and I have chosen to re-write this article, we have kept the original material though some of it has been rearranged and reworded, however it is all there. On top of that we have added material and links, and references to the information provided. We did this as a part of project feminism and as a senior project for our senior capstone class.
CourageCowardlyLion (
talk)
—Preceding
undated comment added 21:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
this is like genderqueer, yes, but this and genderqueer are slightly different. this and genderqueer need to be linked together and we need to add judith butler for citation as well as many others Mhoward058 ( talk) 21:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
If Lady Gaga is to be considered a 'good' example, why is Grace Jones left out? Katie3byea ( talk) 05:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you. I just didn't have the time to get to it. This was for a class project and I had a deadline. Thank you for the information and I will do some research and try to get Grace Jones added. Mhoward058 ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I added additional examples to the list (Grace Jones, Boy George, Cyndi Lauper, Andy Warhol, David Bowie, and Prince). Check out: Good article Katie3byea ( talk) 01:41, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I have yet to be able to do more research in the last few days to a week. I appreciate your constructive contribution. 146.187.89.120 ( talk) 18:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC) I have to agree, I don't understand why Lady Gaga is here, she did drag once - and there was more of a novelty one-off - and aside from her own opinion, no one has noted anything notably androgynous about her. There's so many artists and figures who would fit better on this list (including some of the ones mentioned above); Kathy Acker, Jackie Curtis, Leigh Bowery, Genesis Breyer P-Orridge, 'The Divine' David Hollah, the list is endless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.21.92.247 ( talk) 17:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I propose that Gender bender be merged with this page. There is no clear distinction between the two terms... And infact there are two cites I added recently that identify the two terms as synonymous. The Gender bender article has no citations or references at all and so would be improved by merging I believe. Likewise, this article would be improved by merging since many of the artists people want to identify as genderfucks have no citations as such that I could find... But most of them were identified as gender benders and so an article merge would solve the problem of uncited artists having the potential to appear to be WP:OR -- Dakinijones ( talk) 09:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Gender-bender is a more broad term that could encompass gender-fuck. But I think genderfuck is an underdeveloped article that should stand on it's own. Insomesia ( talk) 21:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing androgynous about Lady Gaga, no matter what she might say. She completely packages herself using traditional female images of sexuality, there is nothing remotely masculine about her. She doesn't even wear pants, for goodness sake. I realize that she supports the LGBT community but, honestly, like Madonna or Britney Spears or Beyonce, when it comes down to it, her female sexuality is a large part of the image she users to sell her music (she's basically all about female sexuality and fashion).
It would be interesting if she played around with gender roles (beyond the "sex sells" BDSM layer), but she doesn't. She's still about long blonde wigs, biniki top and bottom, and stilettos. It's not transgressive at all. She is more Marilyn Monroe than Annie Lennox or David Bowie. Newjerseyliz ( talk) 20:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Genderfuck redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 30 August 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
before you revert me yet again, notice what i added to back it up. what wrong with what i have now? Urthogie 04:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Is this page really nessisary? Isn't it just genderqueer with obsanity tacked onto it for "shock value"? Arcuras 19:29, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Since when does is "fucking" mean "toyed" or "jest" or whatever? "Fucking" is an obscenity and has no definition,they have no meaning but to offend. Anyway, id iimagine the closest definition refers to sexual intercourse.
After recent arguments about which stub category this belongs in 9and I agree with AlexR that the ones previously given are far from accurate), I have changed this to fashion-stub. My argument for this is that Genderfuck is a deliberate fashion or style choice, albeit a deliberately provocative one. If anything, it's most easily comparable with the deliberate public wearing of bondage and fetish gear during the punk era of the late 1970s. Grutness| hello? 06:51, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lectonar 12:01, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of genderfuck or anything related that I can find in the article on Annie Lennox, nor is there (obviously) any reference in this page. Perhaps it's obvious to some, but it seems much less obvious than other performers listed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.69.27.232 ( talk) 08:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
Agreed - before someone is 'claimed' for this absurdly irrelevant article, perhaps some citation of them identifying/being identified with this term should be provided. Izzard, for example, calls himself an 'executive" or "action" transvestite - a witty term unlike this article's puerile version. How about deleting the whole thing? Malick78 09:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. To me, it seems you're determined to remove anything from this article that doesn't meet a standard that should be reserved for articles that are more developed. This is a stub class article and I find your edits more harmful than helpful. The article needs expanding not removal of any idea that doesn't meet a strict WP standard no matter how technically correct. I'm finding it hard to see your edits as constructive rather than disruptive.
The LGBT wikiproject writes:
"The article is either a very short article or a rough collection of information that will need much work to bring it to A-Class level. It is usually very short, but can be of any length if the material is irrelevant or incomprehensible. Possibly useful to someone who has no idea what the term meant. May be useless to a reader only passingly familiar with the term. At best a brief, informed dictionary definition. Any editing or additional material can be helpful."
An article in its genesis needs more help for a general reader to relate to it not less. Annie Lennox, David Bowie and pop music icons are a good resource point for general readers to be able to understand what the article is talking about. The [Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence] are certainly genderfuckers so even if the resource has not yet been unearthered hardly means the very suggestion should be enpunged. This article is now five sentences thanks to your diligent effort. Benjiboi 17:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, if I get the chance, I'll clean up this page. Some of the sources I will be using include,
I'll also have a look around the local library for books on the matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AFA ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
The term "genderfuck" is used in the following academic articles (I'm happy to e-mail you copies if plan to use them to expand the article)
Also, searching using the term "genderfuck" in my University library turns up a hit for this book:
Pete.Hurd 21:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Seriously...is "Genderfuck" the actual name of this concept? I mean, it sounds sort of lay-man to me. It's even got a cuss built right into it, and I don't know the formal name for anything that has a cuss in it. Surely there must be a better, more formal name for this concept than simply "Genderfuck"? I mean, would you really flip through an encyclopedia under G and find the word Genderfuck in it? I think not... 24.15.53.225 02:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
"Scientific/formal name"?! A few articles have that, but it's not a general principle (nor is genderfuck a term, primarily, of psychology). What are the "formal" names for, e.g. Hip hop, Rock and roll or Jazz, all of which terms originate as (somewhat vulgar) slang? LotLE× talk 18:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
"Gender-Bending" was mentioned in this discussion, and seems a more appropriate and commonplace term. You hear "gender-bender" or "gender-bending" used in journalism and the media to describe what this article appears to be about. That seems like the correct and appropriate term. Further, it actually links to this article for some reason, even though there's no discernible difference between the two. Perhaps this article should be merged to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.125.188 ( talk) 10:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for deletion because it is patent nonsense. It is a repetition of "genderqueer" with a profanity used simply for shock value. If it is a valid term, it is not sufficiently notable to be included in an encyclopaedia; and WP is not a dictionary. The article is unsourced and no evidence is provided for the claims made. 87.127.44.154 10:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I find the new addition "List of musicians..." to be really amateurish looking. Without specific discussion of why they are included or how they relate to the topic, such lists are vacant verbiage. It would be so much better to add any artist who is relevant to the actual body of discussion, with explanation of how or why that specific person relates to the concept 'genderfuck'. LotLE× talk 00:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow, the whole premise of genderfuck is unabashedly pretentious beyond most things i've seen. It's completely prideful in a self-conscious way, how has it not drawn criticism from the LGBT community for it's elitist and smug pretentious attitude?. Michigan Frog ( talk) 20:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Genderfuck. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this redirect. You may wish to ask factual questions about Genderfuck at the Reference desk. |
-- Banjeboi 20:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
This article uses profane language and should be taken off Wikipedia and is abhorrent. I nominate for deletion on the grounds that is cruelly offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.104.235 ( talk) 05:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree. There might as well be a page for "Cocksucker" and "Pussyeater". I mean this is ridiculous!
This was actually already on here. We just re-wrote it. I am sorry if this is offensive to you. But you do not have to look at it. This is something that is crucial to gender studies, queer theory and feminism. That is why it was a stub and needed revisions. Mhoward058 ( talk) 20:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Mhoward058, and I have chosen to re-write this article, we have kept the original material though some of it has been rearranged and reworded, however it is all there. On top of that we have added material and links, and references to the information provided. We did this as a part of project feminism and as a senior project for our senior capstone class.
CourageCowardlyLion (
talk)
—Preceding
undated comment added 21:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
this is like genderqueer, yes, but this and genderqueer are slightly different. this and genderqueer need to be linked together and we need to add judith butler for citation as well as many others Mhoward058 ( talk) 21:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
If Lady Gaga is to be considered a 'good' example, why is Grace Jones left out? Katie3byea ( talk) 05:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you. I just didn't have the time to get to it. This was for a class project and I had a deadline. Thank you for the information and I will do some research and try to get Grace Jones added. Mhoward058 ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I added additional examples to the list (Grace Jones, Boy George, Cyndi Lauper, Andy Warhol, David Bowie, and Prince). Check out: Good article Katie3byea ( talk) 01:41, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I have yet to be able to do more research in the last few days to a week. I appreciate your constructive contribution. 146.187.89.120 ( talk) 18:56, 9 June 2012 (UTC) I have to agree, I don't understand why Lady Gaga is here, she did drag once - and there was more of a novelty one-off - and aside from her own opinion, no one has noted anything notably androgynous about her. There's so many artists and figures who would fit better on this list (including some of the ones mentioned above); Kathy Acker, Jackie Curtis, Leigh Bowery, Genesis Breyer P-Orridge, 'The Divine' David Hollah, the list is endless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.21.92.247 ( talk) 17:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I propose that Gender bender be merged with this page. There is no clear distinction between the two terms... And infact there are two cites I added recently that identify the two terms as synonymous. The Gender bender article has no citations or references at all and so would be improved by merging I believe. Likewise, this article would be improved by merging since many of the artists people want to identify as genderfucks have no citations as such that I could find... But most of them were identified as gender benders and so an article merge would solve the problem of uncited artists having the potential to appear to be WP:OR -- Dakinijones ( talk) 09:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Gender-bender is a more broad term that could encompass gender-fuck. But I think genderfuck is an underdeveloped article that should stand on it's own. Insomesia ( talk) 21:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing androgynous about Lady Gaga, no matter what she might say. She completely packages herself using traditional female images of sexuality, there is nothing remotely masculine about her. She doesn't even wear pants, for goodness sake. I realize that she supports the LGBT community but, honestly, like Madonna or Britney Spears or Beyonce, when it comes down to it, her female sexuality is a large part of the image she users to sell her music (she's basically all about female sexuality and fashion).
It would be interesting if she played around with gender roles (beyond the "sex sells" BDSM layer), but she doesn't. She's still about long blonde wigs, biniki top and bottom, and stilettos. It's not transgressive at all. She is more Marilyn Monroe than Annie Lennox or David Bowie. Newjerseyliz ( talk) 20:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC)