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From LGBT topics in Hinduism article:
[1] There are also specific festivals connected to the worship of such gender-variant deities, some of which are famous in India for their crossdressing devotees and homosexual undertones. These festivals include the Aravan Festival of Tamil Nadu, the Ayyappa and Chamaya-Villaku Festivals of Kerala, the Bahucara-mata Festivals of Gujarat and the Yellamma-devi Festivals of Karnataka, among others.
LGBT topics in Hinduism has not many references and trustworthiness of the list above is thus questionable. Yellamma is associated with transsexuality and eunuchism like bahuchara. Never heard about LBGT connections to the others. "Vishnu as lovers of Krishnu." is abstract, (Rhada assuming to be a missplelt Radha). Men like Caitanya are known to be incarnations of the female lover of Krishna. They "loved" Krishna like Radha did, this love is supposed to devotional and spiritual in nature rather than sexual. This transgenderism may be associated with Caitanya and Gadadhara, but Vishnu was NEVER a lover of Krishna. Krishna is a full incarntion of Vishnu, virtually Krishna = Vishnu. One can not be a lover of oneself. The legend of Ila can be included. Ila was a king, who was cursed by Shiva and Parvati to be a woman, as a relief, his curse was reduced to an alternating sexuality. He was man a month and female another month. During this period, he(she) married Budha and had their son. Finally, Ila was totally changed into a man and had children with his wife. I am creating an article on Ila soon. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
You are probably referring to Madhura Bhava above, and yes psychoanalytically few of them argue that this is trangenderism, but there are others like Dr.Jean Openshaw of Open University, Raab, Alan Roland who do not agree with this., Anyway caution should be used while presenting a fringe theory (with all the oppositions) as well accepted facts. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 06:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the Lede has lot of weasel words like, "many examples" , "sometimes explicitly", "sometimes condemned" , "Modern scholars " and we need to work on it. And also , we need rewrite the intro such that the article title is in bold -- Nvineeth ( talk) 10:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know if Gita Thadani is especially controversial? She has written tonnes of books, so i am suprised to see her name redlink. It sounds like she has had an interesting life too, so would make an interesting DYK (with a link to this article to get more readers! :-) ) Yob Mod 17:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article at quite a few places, presents the deductions that were arrived through the application of psychoanalysis--whose application is disputed by psychoanalyists like Alan Roland et al--as facts. For Ex, the passage at the end on Ganesha and we need to work on this as well. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 04:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I see couple of POV related issues, for ex,
-- Nvineeth ( talk) 15:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
You may reasonably revert the edited version I made, but it is important to consider the changes. See WP:UNDUE. Too much information is as much a fault as too little. The density and subtlety of the information requires some pruning. I've made a cut. Not liked? OK, but cutting is still needed, and not all the cuts were wrong. If you can d better, please do. Otherwise, let others have a go. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 21:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm an editor and editors are encouraged to improve the article as part of bringing it to GA. If all you want is a critique, get a peer review.
I asked you for to provide the key points that the READER should be taking from the Critical Analysis section, and you gave me a list of the topics that paragraph covered. I think I could have made that list my self fairly easily. My QUESTION is: What's IMPORTANT in that paragraph. More specifically, what's MOST important? That is what needs to be included.
Including everything is how you get an "A". Show you have done the work, etc. It is not necessarily the way to write a good WP article.
I edited the section referenced earlier to reduce what I considered to be distracting details and to keep the key elements present. I expected a revert. But I could have spent many paragraphs describing change, which description would have then required further explanation and discussion, and the section would still not have been changed or improved. Simpler just to demonstrate. And I am an editor, not just a suggestion box.
Some suggestions from various Wiki Guidelines:
And so on.
Compare this sentence: Many deities in Hinduism and Indian mythology are represented as both male and female at different times and in different incarnations or may manifest with characteristics of both genders at once, such as Ardhanarishvara, created by a merging of the phallic god Shiva and the goddess Parvati (also called Shakti and Uma).
With my revision: Many Hindu deities are represented as both male or female. Some may manifest with characteristics of both genders at once, for example Ardhanarishvara, the merging of the phallic god Shiva and the goddess Parvati.
What detail has been lost? On the other hand, what has been gained by being concise, simple and direct? Which is easier for the reader to understand?
In the revision the topic sentence is obvious. The topic is introduced, followed by an example. In the original it's hard to guess the topic: is it androgyny? or Ardhanari?
Similarly, I removed this sentence: This link to Ardhanarishvara gives LGBT people in mythology magical connotations. [1] That's a term paper sentence, in my opinion.
Similarly: Traditionally, it is believed that Vishnu continues to use the Mohini form in order the play a game on the unsuspecting Shiva, however, in the Telugu and Bhagavata Purana versions, Say what? I changed this to In some versions of the story,
I removed this: This fact proves to be the downfall of the (male) demon Adi, when he attempted to kill Shiva by taking on the form of Parvati and seducing the god into sex, so he could be killed by the sharp teeth hidden in Adi's vagina. Shiva initially went along with the ruse, but easily saw through the deception to Adi's non-divine nature and killed him. [2] There is a hell of lot of information in this sentence, and it really is wonderful, and so on, but
What is the point of this story? "Shiva killed the demon Adi." Is that the point?
This is a paragraph about Vishnu/Mohini and finally Mohini/Shiva -- of Mohini's femininity as a symbol of worldly matters, and relates one of many attempts to induce Shiva into taking an interest in worldly matters Where does Adi fit in? Adi tries to KILL Shiva, not to seduce him into worldliness.
It's an interesting digression, sort of, but not that interesting, and it doesn't further Mohini info at all, and all we end up knowing about Shiva is that he killed another demon who couldn't manage a decent ruse.
And so on.
I wrote enough term papers on similar topics to know that these sorts of flourishes are what Profs really like, and it does take a while for Encyclopedia Brain to replace Term Paper Brain. Encyclopedia Brain is: Be concise, simple, stay on topic.
After reading the before/after again, I believe that the edits above were good, relatively minor, and I plan to reintroduce them. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 13:38, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Also: as to your suggestion above this article is aiming for comprehensiveness, which means including every myth with LGBT interpretations and discusions of all interpreatations.
I'd point to WP:NOT:
Further to your point whether Shiv knows Mohini is Vishnu makes a big difference in the meaning of the story, and is debated in the sources.
GREAT! THAT needs to be said, just that clearly. I removed what I removed because it SEEMED extraneous to the point. That I removed should indicate that its importance was not being made apparent in its original form. It is a good thing to make such points clear. That I cut it, rather than emphasizing it, should indicate that the point was NOT clear.
A review of the clarity of the writing is, I think, critical for a GA. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 14:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I havn't included "all possible details" - i have sumarised more than 1000 pages of research into a short article on the subject. There are longer and more detailed articles on single fictional character, i don't see why this topic deserves less coverage. Sources are given appropriate weight. The 2 sentences on the demon Adi summarises more than 3 pages in the sources. Deleting it from this article altogether in no way improves wikipedia's coverage of this subject. I didn't complain about changing sentences to improve clarity, i am complaining that you are removing cited on-topic information in the same edits. Expert sources say these things, and not including them makes the article misleading. Simple and short is fine, but not when it removes nuance from complicated subjects. Multiple books are devoted to this subject, there is no reason wikipedia should be limited to a bare bones treatment. If you mean term paper is ucnlear writing, it would be easier to say that and point out examples - Term paper is an vague Americanism, especially to a non-American who has never written anything of the sort. Yob Mod 20:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You should not think to include everything in this article just because it exists. If you want to go into greater depth, consider creating and linking to sub articles - like 'LGBT themes in Shiva mythology', etc. Clearly you have already made some editing decisions not to include EVERY little detail -- all I'm doing here is encouraging a few more such decisions in favor of clarity and conciseness. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 22:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
References
In the Valmiki Ramayana and the Rig Veda, Ila was a king who was cursed by Shiva and Parvati to be a woman due to his wandering into Parvati's sacred grove, where she and her handmaidens bathed, or into a forest where Shiva and Parvati made love. Ila's brothers prayed for the curse to be lifted, and in response his curse was reduced to an alternating gender: He was a man one month and a woman the next. When changing sex, he lost his memory of being the other gender, and was called Sudyumna as a male and Ila as a female. During this period, Ila married Budha (the god of the planet Mercury), who did not tell his wife of her alternate existence as a man. In the Ramayana, Ila bore Budha a son , Pururavas, although in the Mahabarata Ila is called both mother and father of the child. Some time after the birth, sages prayed to Vishnu to lift the curse, and Ila was totally changed into a man and went on to father several children with his wife.[20][21][22] In another legend, Ila is described as born to Manu (the proginator of mankind) and his wife after praying to Mitra-Varuna. Instead of the desired son, Mitra-Varana sent them a daughter, as they had failed to offer the appropriate sacrifice. Mitra-Varuna eventually changed this baby into a boy.[22]
Time to take the second Ila out. You are going through a lot of intro, explanation, etc., to say 'in another story, an individual named Ila is born a girl, but is changed into a boy by the god Mitra-Varana.' -- Nemonoman ( talk) 22:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I have it from a very reliable source, Jaya by Devdutt Pattanaik, that Budha himself was a transgender person, and it's puzzling why there's no mention of that fact in this article. I'm adding this bit of information since it is undoubtedly greatly significant to the topic. I would be interested to know if there is a reason for its omission apart from oversight. EDIT: I've replaced the paragraph with one which conforms with the source I gave, though in my opinion it summarizes the story pretty well, I would appreciate feedback. Nack314 06:34, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The 2 sentences about Adi were removed as being unclear along with being Synthesis. It therefore needs rewriting, although it is certainly not synthesis. The source clearly links Vishnu's seduction of Shiva with Adi's failed attempt. From Pattanaik:
"Of course, only Vishnu has the power to enchant Shiva by becoming a woman. When a demon tries to do the same, he failed miserably. The Death of Adi (subtitle). The Demon Adi wanted to kill Shiva... (goes on to describe the plot)".
Although before i only wrote tha Shiva kills Adi, he does this by anally raping him with lightning attached to his penis, which hasn't been included. I'll write it up, as i think we have no examples of rape as a punishment here yet for sexual/gender transgression. It should probably then go as a seperate paragraph, or would be too long. Mayn other sources, including Doniger go into detail about similar myths, which may be useful for later expansion. Yob Mod 21:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone find this to difficult to parse, if it goes in as a separate paragraph after the Mohini paragrpah? If introducing Adi like this is too abrupt, i can expand with why he wants to kill Shiva, and how he changes sex etc,:
Pattanuik writes that only Vishnu is capable of seducing Shiva by taking female form. When the (male) demon Adi tries to kill Shiva by taking on the form of Parvati, he fails. Adi planned to seduce Shiva into sex and kill him using the sharp teeth hidden in Adi's vagina. Shiva easily saw through the disguise and killed Adi by penetrating him with lightning. [1]
The part of "anally penetrating him with lightning" caught my attention and this phrase does not exist in the original book either; Also note that Pattnaik uses "placed a thunderbolt on his manhood" which is clearly different from "anally penetrating". Also note that Pattnaik does not use the raw word(s) either and settles with a euphemism. Also above, its better to avoid "of course" / "In fact" etc., ( see avoiding editorial opinions ) -- Nvineeth ( talk) 07:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
References
This is too much, or not enough. The reason Aravan was fated to die doesn't appear to have much bearing on the Krishna story. This was in order to give Aravan the chance to experience love before his death, as he had volunteered to be sacrificed in place of Krishna or his father Arjuna. The death was necessary as Aravan's uncle Sahadeva had predicted that success in the war would only be possible if a "perfect male" was sacrificed.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Third sex -- or third gender?? Can the article settle on one usage or the other and stick with it throughout? -- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Is this right? Shamba dresses in women's clothes in order to seduce women -- to seduce women??-- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:28, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Few things need clarification :
-- Nvineeth ( talk) 08:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Conner and Sparks write that the link to Ardhanarishvara gives LGBT people in mythology magical connotations. [1]
I've looked at if for at least 10 minutes total, and I have no idea how to parse it.
I guess this means: Connotations are to be drawn (I guess) about LGBT people in mythology (I suppose) due to some link (I'm not quite sure what) between them and Ardhanarishvara (Maybe??) and the connotations are ? Magical?
Help? -- Nemonoman ( talk) 12:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Exactly the same type of questions surfaced in my mind; This sentence seems out of context in that para. I also see problems with another such sentence :
His assumed name Brihannala, which means "big reed" is described as a "phallic joke" by Wendy Doniger, who also writes that Arjuna's description as the "world's best ambidextrous archer" is a joking reference to bisexuality, although she points out that Arjuna avoids any sexual interaction with men while in drag.
Now this is quite some information to digest, lets dissect part by part.
I will be removing this part as well, pls provide clear context, links and then add it back. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 17:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Being neither Hindu, nor part of the LGBT community, I fear that I may not be aware of loaded words or subtle POVs that may be present in the last two sections. I'm doing a thorough copy edit of the article, as it seemed tough to chew through in its first-pass state. When I look at the last two sections, red flags go up in my brain. I'm sure that there are sensitive toes waiting to be stepped on all over those sentences. So I would appreciate help as I edit that we step on as few as possible.
Please, please please assume good faith of my edits of these sections: I am accepting 100% of hinduism and LGBT people, but I am a middle-aged american white man, so I am bound to make a lot of insensitive mistakes. With your help, fellow editors, these won't stay in place for long. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Deleted this material. It's about whether Ganesha is oedipal or incestuous: interesting but off topic.
Feminist critic Chanul Chakrabati, in From Myths to Markets: essays on Gender does not infer any homoerotic subtext Ganesha's conception or later celibacy and association with the Ganas, but considers them to be instead Oedipal and incestuous. [2] [3] Yuvraj Krishnan writes that the interpretations of Ganesha as Oedipal and incestuous is based on a misunderstanding of the Oedipal complex and there are significant differences in the legends of Ganesha and Oedipus. [4]
I'm also thinking about removing other items from the " Same-sex sexual interactions" section that aren't about Same-sex sexual interactions.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
References
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And ready to pass this as a GA. Please comment on the GA nomination page here.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bhishma was born as the youngest son of the illustrious King Shantanu by Ganga. (as seen here.) Which explains, or at least suggests, why Amba had to undertake austerities to exact a revenge over lifetimes, against a man who was granted the boon of choosing the hour of his death. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
" Agni, the god of fire, wealth and creative energy, has same-sex sexual encounters that result in birth." is a POV interpretation of Conner and Sparks. In all tales, the seed of Skanda (semen of Shiva) is result of the sexual union of Shiva and Parvati. Agni is only described as transporter of the semen to the foster mother(s) of Skanda. In no scripture, it is as a "same-sex sexual encounter" (a Sanskrit exists for it). It is NOT the so-called same-sex sexual encounter that results in birth, the sexual union of the divine couple that results in the seed. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm that Connor and Sparks ref describes Agni accepting Shiva's semen. The Encyclopedia Britanica article describes the "seed" as deposited in "the fire", so it's easy for me to confirm that this is not OR, but if I suppose it's right to assure that the citation provides the reference. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes. Its from the book called Ka by robert callesso — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.192.181.162 (
talk)
18:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
"LGBT" is the self-designation of a US subculture. The article presents no evidence of secondary sources that discuss the relation of said subcuture to Hindu mythology, making the article apparent {{ synthesis}}. In particular, "LGBT" is not synonymous with "homosexuality". If this article is supposed to discuss Hindu mythology and homosexuality, it should be titled accordingly. Likewise, "LGBT" is not synonymous with "gender". If this article is supposed to discuss Hindu mythology and gender in general (for which I am certain there will be plenty of sources), it should be titled accordingly.
I get three (3) google book hits for +LGBT +"Hindu mythology". In two of these, the co-occurrence is incidential, leaving me with a single source, Jessica DeKuiper, Reading Hindu texts for queer phenomena [1] If this is going to be an article about the LGBT subculture and its "readings" of Hindu mythology, it should be based on corresponding sources. The DeKuiper reference would be a start, but it will not be sufficient to satisfy inclusion criteria ({{ onesource}}). I am tagging this article for the time being, to see if these issues are going to be addressed. -- dab (𒁳) 14:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
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help)Note that even the sources that seem to focus on one aspect (eg same-sex love above) actually cover homosexuality and gender changes, within the same source. Also, the above are not all LGBT authors. Yob Mod 19:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Gender in Hindu mythology →
LGBT themes in Hindu mythology — The page was recently moved from "LGBT themes in Hindu mythology" to "Gender in Hindu mythology". I strongly oppose the move of the article without a discussion. This article focusses only on LBGT issues and does not deal with general idea of gender in Hindu mythology. Details in Sections like "Patrons of LGBT and third sex people", "Same-sex sexual interactions" become UNDUEs. Also, there is no discussion of heterosexuality, portrayal of women etc. It should be noted that this article passed GA as LGBT themes in Hindu mythology and the change in title endangers its GA status. --
Redtigerxyz
Talk
04:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
"Mythology" should be "legend", or "references", or something different, as these stories are well praised by scholars, who were non-hindus, for being supportive towards various themes. Bladesmulti ( talk) 03:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
It treats mythology as if it's fact. Folklore is interpretive. There is only so much factuality to be found. Anything involving homosexuality and gender is going to be controversial, and yet this article acts like this is a surprise (because interpretations that promote the idea that homosexuality was valued are controversial while the opposite isn't). Controversial to who? Here is an example of this silly language from the article: "Some LGBT interpretations of popular stories and characters have been controversial." Oh really? What a shock. British colonialism's homophobia, which continues to bear twisted fruit to this day, means it's surprising that anything that doesn't transform homosexual sex into "lions showing dominance" and other excuses is controversial. However, it's apparently not at all controversial to gay people or those who value their existence to claim things like people at any time in history had no idea that gay people exists. Hogwash. Gay people have always existed. I am not gay because I was born in America in 1976. I am gay because I was born gay, yet trained relentlessly from birth to be heterosexual by that culture. People need to think about how ridiculous it is to claim that cultures didn't know what homosexuality is, that it's some "modern" invention. BS. We've existed for as long as humanity has, and before. Homosexuality among primates is hardly rare, especially among bonobos. This article is hilarious when it goes to such lengths to legitimize claims that males eating each other's semen is "merely ritualistic, not homosexual". Give me a break. Yeah, they had no idea that same-sex acts are same-sex acts until someone "modern" came along. Yeah, those lions over there having sex, it's just a show of dominance. Tee hee. Those lions really like to show their dominance a lot, don't they? A zoo recently separated long-term a same-sex penguin partnership. Both birds became depressed and died. The zoo staff then claimed they had no idea that would happen. This is the willful blindness that gay people constantly face, and even gay birds. It's humorous but also grotesque. Maybe someone people will wake up and understand that gay people are born gay, period. We have always existed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.233.132.248 ( talk) 20:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
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![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 22, 2009. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that according to
LGBT interpretations, the
Hindu fire god
Agni's role in accepting sacrifices is paralleled by his accepting semen from other gods like
Shiva and
Soma? |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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From LGBT topics in Hinduism article:
[1] There are also specific festivals connected to the worship of such gender-variant deities, some of which are famous in India for their crossdressing devotees and homosexual undertones. These festivals include the Aravan Festival of Tamil Nadu, the Ayyappa and Chamaya-Villaku Festivals of Kerala, the Bahucara-mata Festivals of Gujarat and the Yellamma-devi Festivals of Karnataka, among others.
LGBT topics in Hinduism has not many references and trustworthiness of the list above is thus questionable. Yellamma is associated with transsexuality and eunuchism like bahuchara. Never heard about LBGT connections to the others. "Vishnu as lovers of Krishnu." is abstract, (Rhada assuming to be a missplelt Radha). Men like Caitanya are known to be incarnations of the female lover of Krishna. They "loved" Krishna like Radha did, this love is supposed to devotional and spiritual in nature rather than sexual. This transgenderism may be associated with Caitanya and Gadadhara, but Vishnu was NEVER a lover of Krishna. Krishna is a full incarntion of Vishnu, virtually Krishna = Vishnu. One can not be a lover of oneself. The legend of Ila can be included. Ila was a king, who was cursed by Shiva and Parvati to be a woman, as a relief, his curse was reduced to an alternating sexuality. He was man a month and female another month. During this period, he(she) married Budha and had their son. Finally, Ila was totally changed into a man and had children with his wife. I am creating an article on Ila soon. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 06:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
You are probably referring to Madhura Bhava above, and yes psychoanalytically few of them argue that this is trangenderism, but there are others like Dr.Jean Openshaw of Open University, Raab, Alan Roland who do not agree with this., Anyway caution should be used while presenting a fringe theory (with all the oppositions) as well accepted facts. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 06:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the Lede has lot of weasel words like, "many examples" , "sometimes explicitly", "sometimes condemned" , "Modern scholars " and we need to work on it. And also , we need rewrite the intro such that the article title is in bold -- Nvineeth ( talk) 10:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know if Gita Thadani is especially controversial? She has written tonnes of books, so i am suprised to see her name redlink. It sounds like she has had an interesting life too, so would make an interesting DYK (with a link to this article to get more readers! :-) ) Yob Mod 17:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The article at quite a few places, presents the deductions that were arrived through the application of psychoanalysis--whose application is disputed by psychoanalyists like Alan Roland et al--as facts. For Ex, the passage at the end on Ganesha and we need to work on this as well. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 04:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I see couple of POV related issues, for ex,
-- Nvineeth ( talk) 15:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
You may reasonably revert the edited version I made, but it is important to consider the changes. See WP:UNDUE. Too much information is as much a fault as too little. The density and subtlety of the information requires some pruning. I've made a cut. Not liked? OK, but cutting is still needed, and not all the cuts were wrong. If you can d better, please do. Otherwise, let others have a go. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 21:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm an editor and editors are encouraged to improve the article as part of bringing it to GA. If all you want is a critique, get a peer review.
I asked you for to provide the key points that the READER should be taking from the Critical Analysis section, and you gave me a list of the topics that paragraph covered. I think I could have made that list my self fairly easily. My QUESTION is: What's IMPORTANT in that paragraph. More specifically, what's MOST important? That is what needs to be included.
Including everything is how you get an "A". Show you have done the work, etc. It is not necessarily the way to write a good WP article.
I edited the section referenced earlier to reduce what I considered to be distracting details and to keep the key elements present. I expected a revert. But I could have spent many paragraphs describing change, which description would have then required further explanation and discussion, and the section would still not have been changed or improved. Simpler just to demonstrate. And I am an editor, not just a suggestion box.
Some suggestions from various Wiki Guidelines:
And so on.
Compare this sentence: Many deities in Hinduism and Indian mythology are represented as both male and female at different times and in different incarnations or may manifest with characteristics of both genders at once, such as Ardhanarishvara, created by a merging of the phallic god Shiva and the goddess Parvati (also called Shakti and Uma).
With my revision: Many Hindu deities are represented as both male or female. Some may manifest with characteristics of both genders at once, for example Ardhanarishvara, the merging of the phallic god Shiva and the goddess Parvati.
What detail has been lost? On the other hand, what has been gained by being concise, simple and direct? Which is easier for the reader to understand?
In the revision the topic sentence is obvious. The topic is introduced, followed by an example. In the original it's hard to guess the topic: is it androgyny? or Ardhanari?
Similarly, I removed this sentence: This link to Ardhanarishvara gives LGBT people in mythology magical connotations. [1] That's a term paper sentence, in my opinion.
Similarly: Traditionally, it is believed that Vishnu continues to use the Mohini form in order the play a game on the unsuspecting Shiva, however, in the Telugu and Bhagavata Purana versions, Say what? I changed this to In some versions of the story,
I removed this: This fact proves to be the downfall of the (male) demon Adi, when he attempted to kill Shiva by taking on the form of Parvati and seducing the god into sex, so he could be killed by the sharp teeth hidden in Adi's vagina. Shiva initially went along with the ruse, but easily saw through the deception to Adi's non-divine nature and killed him. [2] There is a hell of lot of information in this sentence, and it really is wonderful, and so on, but
What is the point of this story? "Shiva killed the demon Adi." Is that the point?
This is a paragraph about Vishnu/Mohini and finally Mohini/Shiva -- of Mohini's femininity as a symbol of worldly matters, and relates one of many attempts to induce Shiva into taking an interest in worldly matters Where does Adi fit in? Adi tries to KILL Shiva, not to seduce him into worldliness.
It's an interesting digression, sort of, but not that interesting, and it doesn't further Mohini info at all, and all we end up knowing about Shiva is that he killed another demon who couldn't manage a decent ruse.
And so on.
I wrote enough term papers on similar topics to know that these sorts of flourishes are what Profs really like, and it does take a while for Encyclopedia Brain to replace Term Paper Brain. Encyclopedia Brain is: Be concise, simple, stay on topic.
After reading the before/after again, I believe that the edits above were good, relatively minor, and I plan to reintroduce them. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 13:38, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Also: as to your suggestion above this article is aiming for comprehensiveness, which means including every myth with LGBT interpretations and discusions of all interpreatations.
I'd point to WP:NOT:
Further to your point whether Shiv knows Mohini is Vishnu makes a big difference in the meaning of the story, and is debated in the sources.
GREAT! THAT needs to be said, just that clearly. I removed what I removed because it SEEMED extraneous to the point. That I removed should indicate that its importance was not being made apparent in its original form. It is a good thing to make such points clear. That I cut it, rather than emphasizing it, should indicate that the point was NOT clear.
A review of the clarity of the writing is, I think, critical for a GA. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 14:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I havn't included "all possible details" - i have sumarised more than 1000 pages of research into a short article on the subject. There are longer and more detailed articles on single fictional character, i don't see why this topic deserves less coverage. Sources are given appropriate weight. The 2 sentences on the demon Adi summarises more than 3 pages in the sources. Deleting it from this article altogether in no way improves wikipedia's coverage of this subject. I didn't complain about changing sentences to improve clarity, i am complaining that you are removing cited on-topic information in the same edits. Expert sources say these things, and not including them makes the article misleading. Simple and short is fine, but not when it removes nuance from complicated subjects. Multiple books are devoted to this subject, there is no reason wikipedia should be limited to a bare bones treatment. If you mean term paper is ucnlear writing, it would be easier to say that and point out examples - Term paper is an vague Americanism, especially to a non-American who has never written anything of the sort. Yob Mod 20:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You should not think to include everything in this article just because it exists. If you want to go into greater depth, consider creating and linking to sub articles - like 'LGBT themes in Shiva mythology', etc. Clearly you have already made some editing decisions not to include EVERY little detail -- all I'm doing here is encouraging a few more such decisions in favor of clarity and conciseness. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 22:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
References
In the Valmiki Ramayana and the Rig Veda, Ila was a king who was cursed by Shiva and Parvati to be a woman due to his wandering into Parvati's sacred grove, where she and her handmaidens bathed, or into a forest where Shiva and Parvati made love. Ila's brothers prayed for the curse to be lifted, and in response his curse was reduced to an alternating gender: He was a man one month and a woman the next. When changing sex, he lost his memory of being the other gender, and was called Sudyumna as a male and Ila as a female. During this period, Ila married Budha (the god of the planet Mercury), who did not tell his wife of her alternate existence as a man. In the Ramayana, Ila bore Budha a son , Pururavas, although in the Mahabarata Ila is called both mother and father of the child. Some time after the birth, sages prayed to Vishnu to lift the curse, and Ila was totally changed into a man and went on to father several children with his wife.[20][21][22] In another legend, Ila is described as born to Manu (the proginator of mankind) and his wife after praying to Mitra-Varuna. Instead of the desired son, Mitra-Varana sent them a daughter, as they had failed to offer the appropriate sacrifice. Mitra-Varuna eventually changed this baby into a boy.[22]
Time to take the second Ila out. You are going through a lot of intro, explanation, etc., to say 'in another story, an individual named Ila is born a girl, but is changed into a boy by the god Mitra-Varana.' -- Nemonoman ( talk) 22:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I have it from a very reliable source, Jaya by Devdutt Pattanaik, that Budha himself was a transgender person, and it's puzzling why there's no mention of that fact in this article. I'm adding this bit of information since it is undoubtedly greatly significant to the topic. I would be interested to know if there is a reason for its omission apart from oversight. EDIT: I've replaced the paragraph with one which conforms with the source I gave, though in my opinion it summarizes the story pretty well, I would appreciate feedback. Nack314 06:34, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The 2 sentences about Adi were removed as being unclear along with being Synthesis. It therefore needs rewriting, although it is certainly not synthesis. The source clearly links Vishnu's seduction of Shiva with Adi's failed attempt. From Pattanaik:
"Of course, only Vishnu has the power to enchant Shiva by becoming a woman. When a demon tries to do the same, he failed miserably. The Death of Adi (subtitle). The Demon Adi wanted to kill Shiva... (goes on to describe the plot)".
Although before i only wrote tha Shiva kills Adi, he does this by anally raping him with lightning attached to his penis, which hasn't been included. I'll write it up, as i think we have no examples of rape as a punishment here yet for sexual/gender transgression. It should probably then go as a seperate paragraph, or would be too long. Mayn other sources, including Doniger go into detail about similar myths, which may be useful for later expansion. Yob Mod 21:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone find this to difficult to parse, if it goes in as a separate paragraph after the Mohini paragrpah? If introducing Adi like this is too abrupt, i can expand with why he wants to kill Shiva, and how he changes sex etc,:
Pattanuik writes that only Vishnu is capable of seducing Shiva by taking female form. When the (male) demon Adi tries to kill Shiva by taking on the form of Parvati, he fails. Adi planned to seduce Shiva into sex and kill him using the sharp teeth hidden in Adi's vagina. Shiva easily saw through the disguise and killed Adi by penetrating him with lightning. [1]
The part of "anally penetrating him with lightning" caught my attention and this phrase does not exist in the original book either; Also note that Pattnaik uses "placed a thunderbolt on his manhood" which is clearly different from "anally penetrating". Also note that Pattnaik does not use the raw word(s) either and settles with a euphemism. Also above, its better to avoid "of course" / "In fact" etc., ( see avoiding editorial opinions ) -- Nvineeth ( talk) 07:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
References
This is too much, or not enough. The reason Aravan was fated to die doesn't appear to have much bearing on the Krishna story. This was in order to give Aravan the chance to experience love before his death, as he had volunteered to be sacrificed in place of Krishna or his father Arjuna. The death was necessary as Aravan's uncle Sahadeva had predicted that success in the war would only be possible if a "perfect male" was sacrificed.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Third sex -- or third gender?? Can the article settle on one usage or the other and stick with it throughout? -- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Is this right? Shamba dresses in women's clothes in order to seduce women -- to seduce women??-- Nemonoman ( talk) 04:28, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Few things need clarification :
-- Nvineeth ( talk) 08:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Conner and Sparks write that the link to Ardhanarishvara gives LGBT people in mythology magical connotations. [1]
I've looked at if for at least 10 minutes total, and I have no idea how to parse it.
I guess this means: Connotations are to be drawn (I guess) about LGBT people in mythology (I suppose) due to some link (I'm not quite sure what) between them and Ardhanarishvara (Maybe??) and the connotations are ? Magical?
Help? -- Nemonoman ( talk) 12:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Exactly the same type of questions surfaced in my mind; This sentence seems out of context in that para. I also see problems with another such sentence :
His assumed name Brihannala, which means "big reed" is described as a "phallic joke" by Wendy Doniger, who also writes that Arjuna's description as the "world's best ambidextrous archer" is a joking reference to bisexuality, although she points out that Arjuna avoids any sexual interaction with men while in drag.
Now this is quite some information to digest, lets dissect part by part.
I will be removing this part as well, pls provide clear context, links and then add it back. -- Nvineeth ( talk) 17:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Being neither Hindu, nor part of the LGBT community, I fear that I may not be aware of loaded words or subtle POVs that may be present in the last two sections. I'm doing a thorough copy edit of the article, as it seemed tough to chew through in its first-pass state. When I look at the last two sections, red flags go up in my brain. I'm sure that there are sensitive toes waiting to be stepped on all over those sentences. So I would appreciate help as I edit that we step on as few as possible.
Please, please please assume good faith of my edits of these sections: I am accepting 100% of hinduism and LGBT people, but I am a middle-aged american white man, so I am bound to make a lot of insensitive mistakes. With your help, fellow editors, these won't stay in place for long. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:27, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Deleted this material. It's about whether Ganesha is oedipal or incestuous: interesting but off topic.
Feminist critic Chanul Chakrabati, in From Myths to Markets: essays on Gender does not infer any homoerotic subtext Ganesha's conception or later celibacy and association with the Ganas, but considers them to be instead Oedipal and incestuous. [2] [3] Yuvraj Krishnan writes that the interpretations of Ganesha as Oedipal and incestuous is based on a misunderstanding of the Oedipal complex and there are significant differences in the legends of Ganesha and Oedipus. [4]
I'm also thinking about removing other items from the " Same-sex sexual interactions" section that aren't about Same-sex sexual interactions.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
References
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And ready to pass this as a GA. Please comment on the GA nomination page here.-- Nemonoman ( talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bhishma was born as the youngest son of the illustrious King Shantanu by Ganga. (as seen here.) Which explains, or at least suggests, why Amba had to undertake austerities to exact a revenge over lifetimes, against a man who was granted the boon of choosing the hour of his death. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
" Agni, the god of fire, wealth and creative energy, has same-sex sexual encounters that result in birth." is a POV interpretation of Conner and Sparks. In all tales, the seed of Skanda (semen of Shiva) is result of the sexual union of Shiva and Parvati. Agni is only described as transporter of the semen to the foster mother(s) of Skanda. In no scripture, it is as a "same-sex sexual encounter" (a Sanskrit exists for it). It is NOT the so-called same-sex sexual encounter that results in birth, the sexual union of the divine couple that results in the seed. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm that Connor and Sparks ref describes Agni accepting Shiva's semen. The Encyclopedia Britanica article describes the "seed" as deposited in "the fire", so it's easy for me to confirm that this is not OR, but if I suppose it's right to assure that the citation provides the reference. -- Nemonoman ( talk) 17:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes. Its from the book called Ka by robert callesso — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.192.181.162 (
talk)
18:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
"LGBT" is the self-designation of a US subculture. The article presents no evidence of secondary sources that discuss the relation of said subcuture to Hindu mythology, making the article apparent {{ synthesis}}. In particular, "LGBT" is not synonymous with "homosexuality". If this article is supposed to discuss Hindu mythology and homosexuality, it should be titled accordingly. Likewise, "LGBT" is not synonymous with "gender". If this article is supposed to discuss Hindu mythology and gender in general (for which I am certain there will be plenty of sources), it should be titled accordingly.
I get three (3) google book hits for +LGBT +"Hindu mythology". In two of these, the co-occurrence is incidential, leaving me with a single source, Jessica DeKuiper, Reading Hindu texts for queer phenomena [1] If this is going to be an article about the LGBT subculture and its "readings" of Hindu mythology, it should be based on corresponding sources. The DeKuiper reference would be a start, but it will not be sufficient to satisfy inclusion criteria ({{ onesource}}). I am tagging this article for the time being, to see if these issues are going to be addressed. -- dab (𒁳) 14:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
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help)Note that even the sources that seem to focus on one aspect (eg same-sex love above) actually cover homosexuality and gender changes, within the same source. Also, the above are not all LGBT authors. Yob Mod 19:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Gender in Hindu mythology →
LGBT themes in Hindu mythology — The page was recently moved from "LGBT themes in Hindu mythology" to "Gender in Hindu mythology". I strongly oppose the move of the article without a discussion. This article focusses only on LBGT issues and does not deal with general idea of gender in Hindu mythology. Details in Sections like "Patrons of LGBT and third sex people", "Same-sex sexual interactions" become UNDUEs. Also, there is no discussion of heterosexuality, portrayal of women etc. It should be noted that this article passed GA as LGBT themes in Hindu mythology and the change in title endangers its GA status. --
Redtigerxyz
Talk
04:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
"Mythology" should be "legend", or "references", or something different, as these stories are well praised by scholars, who were non-hindus, for being supportive towards various themes. Bladesmulti ( talk) 03:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
It treats mythology as if it's fact. Folklore is interpretive. There is only so much factuality to be found. Anything involving homosexuality and gender is going to be controversial, and yet this article acts like this is a surprise (because interpretations that promote the idea that homosexuality was valued are controversial while the opposite isn't). Controversial to who? Here is an example of this silly language from the article: "Some LGBT interpretations of popular stories and characters have been controversial." Oh really? What a shock. British colonialism's homophobia, which continues to bear twisted fruit to this day, means it's surprising that anything that doesn't transform homosexual sex into "lions showing dominance" and other excuses is controversial. However, it's apparently not at all controversial to gay people or those who value their existence to claim things like people at any time in history had no idea that gay people exists. Hogwash. Gay people have always existed. I am not gay because I was born in America in 1976. I am gay because I was born gay, yet trained relentlessly from birth to be heterosexual by that culture. People need to think about how ridiculous it is to claim that cultures didn't know what homosexuality is, that it's some "modern" invention. BS. We've existed for as long as humanity has, and before. Homosexuality among primates is hardly rare, especially among bonobos. This article is hilarious when it goes to such lengths to legitimize claims that males eating each other's semen is "merely ritualistic, not homosexual". Give me a break. Yeah, they had no idea that same-sex acts are same-sex acts until someone "modern" came along. Yeah, those lions over there having sex, it's just a show of dominance. Tee hee. Those lions really like to show their dominance a lot, don't they? A zoo recently separated long-term a same-sex penguin partnership. Both birds became depressed and died. The zoo staff then claimed they had no idea that would happen. This is the willful blindness that gay people constantly face, and even gay birds. It's humorous but also grotesque. Maybe someone people will wake up and understand that gay people are born gay, period. We have always existed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.233.132.248 ( talk) 20:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
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