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In the Vaclav Bazek source, there are additional noun declension patterns noted as n-stem and consonant-stem nouns, using *ku and *riks (attested gen. cuno-, nom. rix) present. Should these be included into the page or otherwise backed up with additional source information prior to inclusion?
- Andecombogios 25 Dec 2018, 7:04 (UTC)
Category:Gaulish language was placed in Category:Gallo-Romance languages. I removed said category, because Gaulish was a Celtic, not Romance language.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 18:03, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
I propose merging Cisalpine Gaulish into Gaulish. Other varieties, such as Transalpine Gaulish, don't have stand-alone pages, and the amount of content on the Cisalpine Gaulish page doesn't seem to merit having its own page, especially given that there are only a few surviving inscriptions and (as this page notes) "Scholars have debated [...] to what extent Cisalpine Gaulish should be seen as a continuation of Lepontic or an independent offshoot of mainstream Transalpine Gaulish." Moriwen ( talk) 15:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
"French has Gaulish loanwords. French now has about 150 to 180 words known to be of Gaulish origin, most of which concern pastoral or daily activity.[58][59] If dialectal and derived words are included, the total is about 400 words. Though overall low, this is still the highest number among the Romance languages.[60][61]"
I think there are several problems with this section:
1. Not to bury the lead: the main assertion that "this is still the highest number among the Romance languages" seems unlikely for two reasons:
1.1. It is contradicted elsewhere in Wikipedia, namely at /info/en/?search=Portuguese_vocabulary#List_of_Portuguese_words_of_Celtic_origin where it is stated:
"Although there is not a comprehensive study or wordcount on how much Celtic, (particularly Gallaecian[8] and words from the Hispano-Celtic group) survived in Portuguese (and Galician);[9] it is fair to say that after Latin, this is the second largest component in the Portuguese culture and language.[10] Projections on Celtic vocabulary (some words may have come via French borrowings starting in the 12th century), toponyms and derivations in Portuguese, indicate well over 1,500 words. The Celtic substratum is often overlooked,[11] due to the strong Latinisation of Celtic-derived[12] words in Portuguese."
1.2 The sources 60 and 61 given to support this assertion are seemingly too old (1935) or under-documented (what is "Lambert 185" and where can one read it?)
2. The secondary assertion that "the total [Celtic words in French] is about 400 words" seems too high to people familiar with this subject. One would expect the figure to be around 260 including all dialectal and obsolete words. If the figure were truly to be around 400, then I am willing to pay good money to see that list, and not in a contrarian kind of way, but in an academic research interest kind of way. Unfortunately, I do not believe this list exists.
3. On the other hand, a list of around 1,500 Celtic words in Portuguese does exist and I could supply it to make this point, were it not for that it would be classed as original research in this context here, and hence it would be a useless argument. This word list is in preparation to be published. The main reason for such a high number of Celtic words in Portuguese is the combination of a high number of Celtic roots together with a prolific and still-productive set of suffixation rules, such that for each root, some 15 words derived from it can easily be found in very conservative Portuguese literature, and those words usually disperse significantly in the semantic field, which corroborates their recent productivity.
4. I have not seen any recent references making the claim that "French has the highest number of Celtic words among the Romance languages" and it is admittedly an out-of-place claim in the subject, what with the fame of the paucity of Celtic words in French within this metier together with the fame of the abandonment with which Portuguese words from Celtic are studied while still consistently turning out in recent research. It sounds like the opposite of the impression one gets while studying this subject, which is why I am positing that this assertion may come from a point-of-view which may be equivocated and outdated. KindSeriousMan ( talk) 06:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
For several days I have been tirelessly trying to add information about Modern Gaulish in the "Modern usage" section. At the moment, at least two people have already rejected this decision, which I personally do not understand. Each time I tried to improve my mini-article to the required level. Now, I am completely bewildered and do not understand why my mini-article is being deleted. Considering that this is essentially my first work on Wikipedia, I do not yet have much experience in creating and editing articles. Please help me and tell me what exactly is wrong in my mini-article about the Modern Gaulish language. Celtoi ( talk) 00:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I am not going to give a personal opinion on the matter at stake, but I have been following the discussion. As a professional linguist, working on grammatical typology and issues of translation, I would like to simply add a note for Future Perfect, about Celtoi's use of "we". In this case, part of the misunderstanding is due to false friends between French and English. Although Celtoi hasn't said that, I can detect that he must have French as his first language (right?), and the reason I can say so is precisely due to his overuse of we in English. This is a well-known problem of French speakers who spontaneously calque their use of the French pronoun on and map it onto English we. I often hear or read French colleagues who, when speaking or writing in their (non-native) English, will say things like “We know well that Mandarin is a tonal language”, not realizing that in this case, colloquial English would use a passive or impersonal construction “It is well known that Mandarin is a tonal language”. [Sometimes I noticed these translation mistakes created misunderstandings in international conferences, e.g. sounding like the speaker was boasting about his own knowledge, when they only meant it as a general statement.] Likewise, French speakers who are not-so-fluent speakers of English would say/write “We have five distinct articles that describe Tibetan pronouns”, which English would rather say “There are five distinct articles that describe...” (or even better, “Five distinct articles describe Tibetan pronouns”). With such turns of phrases, for English hearers it always sounds like the speaker is including themself in the group (suggesting they were one of the authors of those five articles on Tibetan), but in reality this is a typical misunderstanding due to the ambiguity of French on; the we here is really a case of mistranslation.
Thus, when Celtoi wrote Now we have 2 independent sources created without our intervention. Is that enough? Do we need more? Or not? If yes, we will seek for more articles, because one article we found in internet, we didn't know it existed.
, his massive overuse of we hurts the eyes of an English speakers, and sounds like he is obsessively referring to some kind of group (of which he would be a member); this explains Future Perfect’s reaction. But I am convinced this is largely a problem of mistranslation (i.e. non-idiomatic use of the English language by Celtoi). In a way, this is what Celtoi is trying to express in his latest message: Now, "we" have 2 independent articles. Okey, not "we", maybe "the world" has 2 independent articles about Modern Gaulish. Is that number normal? Do "the world" need more articles about Modern Gaulish
→ This is his way of trying to express the impersonal use of French on, which is ambiguous between a true "we" pronoun, and an impersonal use: We have 2 independent sources simply meant There are 2 independent sources. And even more clearly: Do we need more? is here an
inclusive we, meaning Are more sources needed (by wikipedia as a whole)?.
I hope this note helps clarify the misunderstanding between Future Perfect and Celtoi: the latter's wording should not be over-interpreted. It is not the case that Celtoi is constantly referring to a group who would like to push an agenda; most of his uses of "we" actually stand for impersonal or passive-voice constructions in English.
As for the matter itself, I do not have a strong opinion. If all the sources provided are written by the same authors, I can see how this could be an issue. If the sources have different authors (or were published in different venues), then why not mention Modern Gaulish. -- Best, Womtelo ( talk) 10:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gaulish article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In the Vaclav Bazek source, there are additional noun declension patterns noted as n-stem and consonant-stem nouns, using *ku and *riks (attested gen. cuno-, nom. rix) present. Should these be included into the page or otherwise backed up with additional source information prior to inclusion?
- Andecombogios 25 Dec 2018, 7:04 (UTC)
Category:Gaulish language was placed in Category:Gallo-Romance languages. I removed said category, because Gaulish was a Celtic, not Romance language.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 18:03, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
I propose merging Cisalpine Gaulish into Gaulish. Other varieties, such as Transalpine Gaulish, don't have stand-alone pages, and the amount of content on the Cisalpine Gaulish page doesn't seem to merit having its own page, especially given that there are only a few surviving inscriptions and (as this page notes) "Scholars have debated [...] to what extent Cisalpine Gaulish should be seen as a continuation of Lepontic or an independent offshoot of mainstream Transalpine Gaulish." Moriwen ( talk) 15:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
"French has Gaulish loanwords. French now has about 150 to 180 words known to be of Gaulish origin, most of which concern pastoral or daily activity.[58][59] If dialectal and derived words are included, the total is about 400 words. Though overall low, this is still the highest number among the Romance languages.[60][61]"
I think there are several problems with this section:
1. Not to bury the lead: the main assertion that "this is still the highest number among the Romance languages" seems unlikely for two reasons:
1.1. It is contradicted elsewhere in Wikipedia, namely at /info/en/?search=Portuguese_vocabulary#List_of_Portuguese_words_of_Celtic_origin where it is stated:
"Although there is not a comprehensive study or wordcount on how much Celtic, (particularly Gallaecian[8] and words from the Hispano-Celtic group) survived in Portuguese (and Galician);[9] it is fair to say that after Latin, this is the second largest component in the Portuguese culture and language.[10] Projections on Celtic vocabulary (some words may have come via French borrowings starting in the 12th century), toponyms and derivations in Portuguese, indicate well over 1,500 words. The Celtic substratum is often overlooked,[11] due to the strong Latinisation of Celtic-derived[12] words in Portuguese."
1.2 The sources 60 and 61 given to support this assertion are seemingly too old (1935) or under-documented (what is "Lambert 185" and where can one read it?)
2. The secondary assertion that "the total [Celtic words in French] is about 400 words" seems too high to people familiar with this subject. One would expect the figure to be around 260 including all dialectal and obsolete words. If the figure were truly to be around 400, then I am willing to pay good money to see that list, and not in a contrarian kind of way, but in an academic research interest kind of way. Unfortunately, I do not believe this list exists.
3. On the other hand, a list of around 1,500 Celtic words in Portuguese does exist and I could supply it to make this point, were it not for that it would be classed as original research in this context here, and hence it would be a useless argument. This word list is in preparation to be published. The main reason for such a high number of Celtic words in Portuguese is the combination of a high number of Celtic roots together with a prolific and still-productive set of suffixation rules, such that for each root, some 15 words derived from it can easily be found in very conservative Portuguese literature, and those words usually disperse significantly in the semantic field, which corroborates their recent productivity.
4. I have not seen any recent references making the claim that "French has the highest number of Celtic words among the Romance languages" and it is admittedly an out-of-place claim in the subject, what with the fame of the paucity of Celtic words in French within this metier together with the fame of the abandonment with which Portuguese words from Celtic are studied while still consistently turning out in recent research. It sounds like the opposite of the impression one gets while studying this subject, which is why I am positing that this assertion may come from a point-of-view which may be equivocated and outdated. KindSeriousMan ( talk) 06:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
For several days I have been tirelessly trying to add information about Modern Gaulish in the "Modern usage" section. At the moment, at least two people have already rejected this decision, which I personally do not understand. Each time I tried to improve my mini-article to the required level. Now, I am completely bewildered and do not understand why my mini-article is being deleted. Considering that this is essentially my first work on Wikipedia, I do not yet have much experience in creating and editing articles. Please help me and tell me what exactly is wrong in my mini-article about the Modern Gaulish language. Celtoi ( talk) 00:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I am not going to give a personal opinion on the matter at stake, but I have been following the discussion. As a professional linguist, working on grammatical typology and issues of translation, I would like to simply add a note for Future Perfect, about Celtoi's use of "we". In this case, part of the misunderstanding is due to false friends between French and English. Although Celtoi hasn't said that, I can detect that he must have French as his first language (right?), and the reason I can say so is precisely due to his overuse of we in English. This is a well-known problem of French speakers who spontaneously calque their use of the French pronoun on and map it onto English we. I often hear or read French colleagues who, when speaking or writing in their (non-native) English, will say things like “We know well that Mandarin is a tonal language”, not realizing that in this case, colloquial English would use a passive or impersonal construction “It is well known that Mandarin is a tonal language”. [Sometimes I noticed these translation mistakes created misunderstandings in international conferences, e.g. sounding like the speaker was boasting about his own knowledge, when they only meant it as a general statement.] Likewise, French speakers who are not-so-fluent speakers of English would say/write “We have five distinct articles that describe Tibetan pronouns”, which English would rather say “There are five distinct articles that describe...” (or even better, “Five distinct articles describe Tibetan pronouns”). With such turns of phrases, for English hearers it always sounds like the speaker is including themself in the group (suggesting they were one of the authors of those five articles on Tibetan), but in reality this is a typical misunderstanding due to the ambiguity of French on; the we here is really a case of mistranslation.
Thus, when Celtoi wrote Now we have 2 independent sources created without our intervention. Is that enough? Do we need more? Or not? If yes, we will seek for more articles, because one article we found in internet, we didn't know it existed.
, his massive overuse of we hurts the eyes of an English speakers, and sounds like he is obsessively referring to some kind of group (of which he would be a member); this explains Future Perfect’s reaction. But I am convinced this is largely a problem of mistranslation (i.e. non-idiomatic use of the English language by Celtoi). In a way, this is what Celtoi is trying to express in his latest message: Now, "we" have 2 independent articles. Okey, not "we", maybe "the world" has 2 independent articles about Modern Gaulish. Is that number normal? Do "the world" need more articles about Modern Gaulish
→ This is his way of trying to express the impersonal use of French on, which is ambiguous between a true "we" pronoun, and an impersonal use: We have 2 independent sources simply meant There are 2 independent sources. And even more clearly: Do we need more? is here an
inclusive we, meaning Are more sources needed (by wikipedia as a whole)?.
I hope this note helps clarify the misunderstanding between Future Perfect and Celtoi: the latter's wording should not be over-interpreted. It is not the case that Celtoi is constantly referring to a group who would like to push an agenda; most of his uses of "we" actually stand for impersonal or passive-voice constructions in English.
As for the matter itself, I do not have a strong opinion. If all the sources provided are written by the same authors, I can see how this could be an issue. If the sources have different authors (or were published in different venues), then why not mention Modern Gaulish. -- Best, Womtelo ( talk) 10:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC).