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The contents of the Black Caribs page were merged into Garifuna on 21 February 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Garifuna or Black Caribs are descendance of Mali Sultan Abu-Bakr II expedition who the left the Mali empire around 1312 to find the end of the Atlantic ocean. in 1312 Mansa Musa the richest man ever succeeded Sultan Aba Bakr when he did not return from his expedition. The ship wreck narrative is a lie b/c there would have been some white Spanish blood within the Garifuna genes and there are none. Plus there are no Spanish words in the Garifuna language.
Garifuna are originally from Mali empire. Set foot on Caribbean soil with Abu-Bakr II descoveries lover than his brother Kankou Moussa, the most richman after king Salomon, whose wealth created crisis in El Cairo cause giving cash gold to hopless and helpess People. Garifuna are not Abu-Bakr II slave but his family where everyone have his task in empire. I'm really convinced, if garifuna are not there from post columbus slave trade ?? They were précolombian Caribbean inhabitants with king Abubakar, this time only one Subsahara West Africa royal distinguished personality to conquer New Land where peacefully he have signed human and kind treaty of course with indians.garifuna are from ours ??? Mandingo, They idiom seem like, like senegalese wolof idiom. There are also another tribe with idiom called BONI, in Guyana, Who are from Tiassale, a city from AKAN lenguages from the Ivory Coast.i really want to get in touch with you cause interested any black history in Caribbean Land ??? Much to give and hear in return. I'm guide, painter, art sculpture galeries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.77.132 ( talk) 01:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC) Would be useful to refer to the flag in the article - it's origins, status, use and symbolism (if any). Davidships ( talk) 15:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
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Both articles seem to indicate that the terms are identical in meaning. Garifuna is clearly the most common name according to Google Ngram Viewer. Daask ( talk) 13:18, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
In colonial times and up until the late 1970s in the writings of Douglas Taylor, among others, the Garínagu were known to outsiders as “Caribs”, “Black Caribs” or “Island Caribs”.
— Haurholm-Larsen, Steffen (September 22, 2016). A Grammar of Garifuna (PDF) (PhD). University of Bern. p. 6.
The current naming pattern does not really make sense, since both names referred to both groups (with "Garifuna" being the modern WP:COMMONNAME for both). This can be fixed in several ways, including the proposed merge, renaming the articles to "Garifuna" and "Garifuna diaspora", renaming the articles to "Garifuna (Saint Vincent)" and "Garifuna (Central America)", etc. — MarkH21 talk 15:05, 26 February 2021 (UTC)The Black Caribs (Garifuna) are descendants of West African and Amerindian groups from St. Vincent Island who were transplanted to the coast of Central America in 1797.
— Crawford, MH; Gonzalez, NL; Schanfield, MS; Dykes, DD; Skradski, K; Polesky, HF (February 1981). "The Black Caribs (Garifuna) of Livingston, Guatemala: Genetic Markers and Admixture Estimates". Human Biology. 53 (1): 87–103. JSTOR 41464596. PMID 7239494.
The term “Antillean Garifuna” was coined by myself as an alternative to the “Island Carib” or “Black Carib” which give one of two mistaken impressions: a) that Garifuna is a Carib language, or b) that the language spoken in the Lesser Antilles until 100 years ago was unrelated to modern Garifuna. So not only is this a term that was coined in a four-year-old unpublished dissertation, but it's also a neologism, not only for Black Caribs, but for all Island Caribs. It turns out that there already is a term for this group - Kalinago.
this a term that was coined in a four-year-old unpublished dissertationdo you mean that "Garifuna", as a term for the Black Caribs population still in St. Vincent and the Grenadines, has only been used by the dissertation? Or specifically "Antillean Garifuna"? — MarkH21 talk 01:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
— MarkH21 talk 03:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)The outcome was that by the mid-eighteenth century the Garifuna were the effective owners of substantial lands on St Vincent: a map of 1764 shows substantial territory, particularly in the north-east, occupied by five Garifuna subtribes.
— Foster, Byron (1987). "Celebrating autonomy: the development of Garifuna ritual on St Vincent". Caribbean Quarterly. 33 (3/4): 75–83. JSTOR 40654135.
— MarkH21 talk 04:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)The fact that the Island Carib rather than the Afro-Carib were the victims of the French attack suggests that the Afro-Carib had already formed communities in the island's interior. If this was in fact the case, the Afro-Carib would in all likelihood have, by 1654, begun to refer to themselves as Garifuna - an African modification of Karifuna, the Island Carib term for them
— Foster, Byron (1987). "Celebrating autonomy: the development of Garifuna ritual on St Vincent". Caribbean Quarterly. 33 (3/4): 75–83. JSTOR 40654135.
The Garifuna, initially known well into the 20th century as Black Caribs, are the expression of a process of miscegenation between Africans trafficked as slaves and indigenous Caribs and Arawaks that occurs during the colonial period in the Lesser Antilles, mainly on the Island of Saint Vincent.
— Agudelo, Carlos (2011). Afrodescendencia: Aproximaciones contemporáneas desde América Latina y el Caribe (PDF). pp. 59–66.
The Black Caribs (who refer to themselves as Garifuna) form a biological and cultural amalgam of Amerindian and West African components.
— Gullick, C. J. M. R. (1984). "The changing Vincentian Carib population". In Crawford, Michael H. (ed.). Current Developments in Anthropological Genetics. Black Caribs A Case Study in Biocultural Adaptation. Vol. 3. Springer-Verlag. pp. 37–50. doi: 10.1007/978-1-4613-2649-6. ISBN 978-1-4613-2649-6.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaldari ( talk • contribs)Those Black Caribs who avoided the British deportation of 1797 gave issue to the estimated 1100-2000 Garifuna on St. Vincent Island.
— Crawford, Michael H. (1984). Current Developments in Anthropological Genetics. Black Caribs A Case Study in Biocultural Adaptation. Vol. 3. Springer-Verlag. p. 3. doi: 10.1007/978-1-4613-2649-6. ISBN 978-1-4613-2649-6.
they have less cultural and linguistic connection to the original "Black Caribs" than the Garifuna of Central America do. The remaining Garifuna in St. Vincent are much fewer in number and less well-documented than the descendants of those who were deported, but they still share a common heritage and ancestry. They aren't entitled to the a claim of exclusivity over the original St. Vincent "Black Carib" inhabitants, but that should be true for all of their descendants. — MarkH21 talk 03:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Our article says that there are 159,653 Garifuna residing in the United States and cites this to the "2005 American Community Survey: Race and Hispanic or Latino. U.S. Census Bureau". Unfortunately, the Census Bureau's website has been redone a few times since this citation was created and the original link doesn't work any more, but I found it on archive.org: [1]. The data on that page doesn't mention "Garifuna" anywhere, nor does the number 159,653 appear in it, nor have I been able to find any data related to the Garifuna at data.census.gov. This isn't surprising since every other source I've read says that there are no reliable estimates for how many Garifuna reside in the U.S. The only decent info I've been able to find is:
There are no precise statistics on the figures of the Garifuna population residing in the United States but different sources speak of an amount equal to or greater than that of the Garifuna who inhabit Central America.
— Agudelo, Carlos (2011). Afrodescendencia: Aproximaciones contemporáneas desde América Latina y el Caribe (PDF). pp. 59–66.
Thus I'm inclined to change our "159,653" figure (which as far as I can tell was simply made up) to " c. 200,000" and cite it to the source above. Does anyone have more specific information that could be used? Kaldari ( talk) 20:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
The Garifuna Nation's website displays the Garifuna flag with the black on top.
The government of Belize appears to agree.
Should the flag be inverted? 1.126.106.50 ( talk) 20:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The contents of the Black Caribs page were merged into Garifuna on 21 February 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Garifuna or Black Caribs are descendance of Mali Sultan Abu-Bakr II expedition who the left the Mali empire around 1312 to find the end of the Atlantic ocean. in 1312 Mansa Musa the richest man ever succeeded Sultan Aba Bakr when he did not return from his expedition. The ship wreck narrative is a lie b/c there would have been some white Spanish blood within the Garifuna genes and there are none. Plus there are no Spanish words in the Garifuna language.
Garifuna are originally from Mali empire. Set foot on Caribbean soil with Abu-Bakr II descoveries lover than his brother Kankou Moussa, the most richman after king Salomon, whose wealth created crisis in El Cairo cause giving cash gold to hopless and helpess People. Garifuna are not Abu-Bakr II slave but his family where everyone have his task in empire. I'm really convinced, if garifuna are not there from post columbus slave trade ?? They were précolombian Caribbean inhabitants with king Abubakar, this time only one Subsahara West Africa royal distinguished personality to conquer New Land where peacefully he have signed human and kind treaty of course with indians.garifuna are from ours ??? Mandingo, They idiom seem like, like senegalese wolof idiom. There are also another tribe with idiom called BONI, in Guyana, Who are from Tiassale, a city from AKAN lenguages from the Ivory Coast.i really want to get in touch with you cause interested any black history in Caribbean Land ??? Much to give and hear in return. I'm guide, painter, art sculpture galeries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.77.132 ( talk) 01:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC) Would be useful to refer to the flag in the article - it's origins, status, use and symbolism (if any). Davidships ( talk) 15:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Garifuna. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Both articles seem to indicate that the terms are identical in meaning. Garifuna is clearly the most common name according to Google Ngram Viewer. Daask ( talk) 13:18, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
In colonial times and up until the late 1970s in the writings of Douglas Taylor, among others, the Garínagu were known to outsiders as “Caribs”, “Black Caribs” or “Island Caribs”.
— Haurholm-Larsen, Steffen (September 22, 2016). A Grammar of Garifuna (PDF) (PhD). University of Bern. p. 6.
The current naming pattern does not really make sense, since both names referred to both groups (with "Garifuna" being the modern WP:COMMONNAME for both). This can be fixed in several ways, including the proposed merge, renaming the articles to "Garifuna" and "Garifuna diaspora", renaming the articles to "Garifuna (Saint Vincent)" and "Garifuna (Central America)", etc. — MarkH21 talk 15:05, 26 February 2021 (UTC)The Black Caribs (Garifuna) are descendants of West African and Amerindian groups from St. Vincent Island who were transplanted to the coast of Central America in 1797.
— Crawford, MH; Gonzalez, NL; Schanfield, MS; Dykes, DD; Skradski, K; Polesky, HF (February 1981). "The Black Caribs (Garifuna) of Livingston, Guatemala: Genetic Markers and Admixture Estimates". Human Biology. 53 (1): 87–103. JSTOR 41464596. PMID 7239494.
The term “Antillean Garifuna” was coined by myself as an alternative to the “Island Carib” or “Black Carib” which give one of two mistaken impressions: a) that Garifuna is a Carib language, or b) that the language spoken in the Lesser Antilles until 100 years ago was unrelated to modern Garifuna. So not only is this a term that was coined in a four-year-old unpublished dissertation, but it's also a neologism, not only for Black Caribs, but for all Island Caribs. It turns out that there already is a term for this group - Kalinago.
this a term that was coined in a four-year-old unpublished dissertationdo you mean that "Garifuna", as a term for the Black Caribs population still in St. Vincent and the Grenadines, has only been used by the dissertation? Or specifically "Antillean Garifuna"? — MarkH21 talk 01:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
— MarkH21 talk 03:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)The outcome was that by the mid-eighteenth century the Garifuna were the effective owners of substantial lands on St Vincent: a map of 1764 shows substantial territory, particularly in the north-east, occupied by five Garifuna subtribes.
— Foster, Byron (1987). "Celebrating autonomy: the development of Garifuna ritual on St Vincent". Caribbean Quarterly. 33 (3/4): 75–83. JSTOR 40654135.
— MarkH21 talk 04:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)The fact that the Island Carib rather than the Afro-Carib were the victims of the French attack suggests that the Afro-Carib had already formed communities in the island's interior. If this was in fact the case, the Afro-Carib would in all likelihood have, by 1654, begun to refer to themselves as Garifuna - an African modification of Karifuna, the Island Carib term for them
— Foster, Byron (1987). "Celebrating autonomy: the development of Garifuna ritual on St Vincent". Caribbean Quarterly. 33 (3/4): 75–83. JSTOR 40654135.
The Garifuna, initially known well into the 20th century as Black Caribs, are the expression of a process of miscegenation between Africans trafficked as slaves and indigenous Caribs and Arawaks that occurs during the colonial period in the Lesser Antilles, mainly on the Island of Saint Vincent.
— Agudelo, Carlos (2011). Afrodescendencia: Aproximaciones contemporáneas desde América Latina y el Caribe (PDF). pp. 59–66.
The Black Caribs (who refer to themselves as Garifuna) form a biological and cultural amalgam of Amerindian and West African components.
— Gullick, C. J. M. R. (1984). "The changing Vincentian Carib population". In Crawford, Michael H. (ed.). Current Developments in Anthropological Genetics. Black Caribs A Case Study in Biocultural Adaptation. Vol. 3. Springer-Verlag. pp. 37–50. doi: 10.1007/978-1-4613-2649-6. ISBN 978-1-4613-2649-6.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaldari ( talk • contribs)Those Black Caribs who avoided the British deportation of 1797 gave issue to the estimated 1100-2000 Garifuna on St. Vincent Island.
— Crawford, Michael H. (1984). Current Developments in Anthropological Genetics. Black Caribs A Case Study in Biocultural Adaptation. Vol. 3. Springer-Verlag. p. 3. doi: 10.1007/978-1-4613-2649-6. ISBN 978-1-4613-2649-6.
they have less cultural and linguistic connection to the original "Black Caribs" than the Garifuna of Central America do. The remaining Garifuna in St. Vincent are much fewer in number and less well-documented than the descendants of those who were deported, but they still share a common heritage and ancestry. They aren't entitled to the a claim of exclusivity over the original St. Vincent "Black Carib" inhabitants, but that should be true for all of their descendants. — MarkH21 talk 03:36, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Our article says that there are 159,653 Garifuna residing in the United States and cites this to the "2005 American Community Survey: Race and Hispanic or Latino. U.S. Census Bureau". Unfortunately, the Census Bureau's website has been redone a few times since this citation was created and the original link doesn't work any more, but I found it on archive.org: [1]. The data on that page doesn't mention "Garifuna" anywhere, nor does the number 159,653 appear in it, nor have I been able to find any data related to the Garifuna at data.census.gov. This isn't surprising since every other source I've read says that there are no reliable estimates for how many Garifuna reside in the U.S. The only decent info I've been able to find is:
There are no precise statistics on the figures of the Garifuna population residing in the United States but different sources speak of an amount equal to or greater than that of the Garifuna who inhabit Central America.
— Agudelo, Carlos (2011). Afrodescendencia: Aproximaciones contemporáneas desde América Latina y el Caribe (PDF). pp. 59–66.
Thus I'm inclined to change our "159,653" figure (which as far as I can tell was simply made up) to " c. 200,000" and cite it to the source above. Does anyone have more specific information that could be used? Kaldari ( talk) 20:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
The Garifuna Nation's website displays the Garifuna flag with the black on top.
The government of Belize appears to agree.
Should the flag be inverted? 1.126.106.50 ( talk) 20:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)