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Most of links that I could control are not neutral. Please find Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources to prove Wikipedia:Notability. Takabeg ( talk) 10:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Cornell states that Armenian troops conquered these villages which resulted in 99 civilian deaths, this meaning they died during the war and it doesn't say they were massacred, so using it in the header as killing of civilians and using Cornell is not accurate at all. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 01:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Alot of information is cited by Azerbaijani news media, which can't be reliable, or neutral to use in this such case. Wikipedia aims to contain reliable information from a neutral view. Please see: WP:NEWSORG. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 04:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Here is some important background information which can not be ignored when deciding to base an article mainly on (pro)-Azerbaijani news agencies.
I agree with user Grandmaster to delete all content that violates Wikipedia policies, thus in the first step deleting all content that is not verifiable. What remains would be a stub -- Markus2685 ( talk) 13:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
As also the title of the article is disputed I suggest presenting and discussing alternative titles here. Example:
- Garadaghly incidents -- Markus2685 ( talk) 13:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I support the present title, because I think that "conquest" or "battle" does not reflect the content of the article, which is about mass killing, and not the hostilities. There was no real battle, as forces were unequal. Also, I found another source, Chicago Tribune, which mentions the event, but the name of the village is spelled as Karadogly. I temporarily post the full text, and will later remove it due to copyright reasons:
20 die in Armenian attack on town in disputed enclave: [FINAL, M Edition]
Chicago Tribune wires.. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext) [Chicago, Ill] 18 Feb 1992: 4.
More than 20 people were killed and 15 wounded Monday in an Armenian attack on a village in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. Armenian militants captured the Azerbaijani village of Karadogly and forced the residents to flee to a nearby forest, the news agency said, quoting the Azerbaijani People's Front information center. The Foreign Ministry of the former Soviet republic of Azerbaijan released a statement accusing neighboring Armenia of attacking unarmed civilians in its drive to gain control of Nagorno-Karabakh. Predominantly Christian Armenians and Muslim Azerbaijanis both want Nagorno-Karabakh.
The article is available here: [7] or Proquest. Grand master 19:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Also here: [8] Grand master 19:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Karadagly (as Karadogly) is also mentioned by de Waal on page 115, but it is about an earlier incident (about a year before) with a lower number of casualties:
In the spring and summer of 1991, the violence escalated into a partisan-style conflict between villages; raids were made and hostages were taken. Six Azerbaijani villagers were killed in one attack by Armenian fighters on the village of Karadogly.
Grand master 19:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
As for merging the article, as Marshal suggests above, that should not be done unless a separate discussion around the merge is conducted, and I'd recommend inviting all participants in the recent AfD to participate. There was consensus to Keep the article in that discussion, so an immediate merge would be very inappropriate without further discussion. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ bomb 00:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
As far as I see this same procedure must now be done to the artcile Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre. It's the same there.-- Markus2685 ( talk) 21:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Tyrol5 [Talk] 03:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Garadaghly Massacre → Capture of Garadaghly – per WP:NPOV. There is no common name in English for this relatively obscure event, in few reliable English sources where it is mentioned the Armenian takeover of the village has been described with words like "captured" and "conquered". As current title is only used in Azerbaijani sources, it does not qualify per WP:POVTITLE. Therefore WP:NDESC applies and a neutral descriptive title should be used.-- Staberinde ( talk) 17:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I have to delete again the articles about pogroms in "See also" section, because they are not relevant to this article. Please don't revert back without discussion here. Best, Konullu ( talk) 23:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
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There are 9 sources in the article, of which only 3 seem to be somewhat associated with the subject. And one of them is just a source backing the sentence saying that "Azerbaijan sent letters". Therefore I don't see the reason for 3rd Party sources tag.
And for the POV tag, the article seems alright and the original POV tag giver has not given any reason as to why they think it's POV, therefore it's impossible to know for me, and most users to know what the problem is. Thus, I suggest removing it. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 08:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
On google book the only info on these events was on the six villagers. Anyone has access to the page that was cited (p.115)? If De Waal comment is about the event described in the article and not some prior event, it has to be contextualized, and clarified that it is about the actual event termed here as massacre. Tks. Hemşinli çocuk 02:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
There are no links in the article to any sources that would confirm these events. It is required either to bring such resources (not Azerbaijani, of course), or to nominate the article for deletion and delete it, since it does not carry any valuable information for a reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Servantis ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
@ N1C4T97: Where does it say 53 people were killed ? I don’t see it in the book. Thank you. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 17:40, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Capture of Garadaghly article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 25 February 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 21 January 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
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This article was nominated for deletion review on 24 December 2010. The result of the discussion was closed as moot. |
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Most of links that I could control are not neutral. Please find Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources to prove Wikipedia:Notability. Takabeg ( talk) 10:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Cornell states that Armenian troops conquered these villages which resulted in 99 civilian deaths, this meaning they died during the war and it doesn't say they were massacred, so using it in the header as killing of civilians and using Cornell is not accurate at all. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 01:08, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Alot of information is cited by Azerbaijani news media, which can't be reliable, or neutral to use in this such case. Wikipedia aims to contain reliable information from a neutral view. Please see: WP:NEWSORG. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 04:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Here is some important background information which can not be ignored when deciding to base an article mainly on (pro)-Azerbaijani news agencies.
I agree with user Grandmaster to delete all content that violates Wikipedia policies, thus in the first step deleting all content that is not verifiable. What remains would be a stub -- Markus2685 ( talk) 13:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
As also the title of the article is disputed I suggest presenting and discussing alternative titles here. Example:
- Garadaghly incidents -- Markus2685 ( talk) 13:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I support the present title, because I think that "conquest" or "battle" does not reflect the content of the article, which is about mass killing, and not the hostilities. There was no real battle, as forces were unequal. Also, I found another source, Chicago Tribune, which mentions the event, but the name of the village is spelled as Karadogly. I temporarily post the full text, and will later remove it due to copyright reasons:
20 die in Armenian attack on town in disputed enclave: [FINAL, M Edition]
Chicago Tribune wires.. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext) [Chicago, Ill] 18 Feb 1992: 4.
More than 20 people were killed and 15 wounded Monday in an Armenian attack on a village in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. Armenian militants captured the Azerbaijani village of Karadogly and forced the residents to flee to a nearby forest, the news agency said, quoting the Azerbaijani People's Front information center. The Foreign Ministry of the former Soviet republic of Azerbaijan released a statement accusing neighboring Armenia of attacking unarmed civilians in its drive to gain control of Nagorno-Karabakh. Predominantly Christian Armenians and Muslim Azerbaijanis both want Nagorno-Karabakh.
The article is available here: [7] or Proquest. Grand master 19:43, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Also here: [8] Grand master 19:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Karadagly (as Karadogly) is also mentioned by de Waal on page 115, but it is about an earlier incident (about a year before) with a lower number of casualties:
In the spring and summer of 1991, the violence escalated into a partisan-style conflict between villages; raids were made and hostages were taken. Six Azerbaijani villagers were killed in one attack by Armenian fighters on the village of Karadogly.
Grand master 19:59, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
As for merging the article, as Marshal suggests above, that should not be done unless a separate discussion around the merge is conducted, and I'd recommend inviting all participants in the recent AfD to participate. There was consensus to Keep the article in that discussion, so an immediate merge would be very inappropriate without further discussion. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ bomb 00:55, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
As far as I see this same procedure must now be done to the artcile Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre. It's the same there.-- Markus2685 ( talk) 21:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Tyrol5 [Talk] 03:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Garadaghly Massacre → Capture of Garadaghly – per WP:NPOV. There is no common name in English for this relatively obscure event, in few reliable English sources where it is mentioned the Armenian takeover of the village has been described with words like "captured" and "conquered". As current title is only used in Azerbaijani sources, it does not qualify per WP:POVTITLE. Therefore WP:NDESC applies and a neutral descriptive title should be used.-- Staberinde ( talk) 17:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I have to delete again the articles about pogroms in "See also" section, because they are not relevant to this article. Please don't revert back without discussion here. Best, Konullu ( talk) 23:42, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
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There are 9 sources in the article, of which only 3 seem to be somewhat associated with the subject. And one of them is just a source backing the sentence saying that "Azerbaijan sent letters". Therefore I don't see the reason for 3rd Party sources tag.
And for the POV tag, the article seems alright and the original POV tag giver has not given any reason as to why they think it's POV, therefore it's impossible to know for me, and most users to know what the problem is. Thus, I suggest removing it. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 08:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
On google book the only info on these events was on the six villagers. Anyone has access to the page that was cited (p.115)? If De Waal comment is about the event described in the article and not some prior event, it has to be contextualized, and clarified that it is about the actual event termed here as massacre. Tks. Hemşinli çocuk 02:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
There are no links in the article to any sources that would confirm these events. It is required either to bring such resources (not Azerbaijani, of course), or to nominate the article for deletion and delete it, since it does not carry any valuable information for a reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Servantis ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
@ N1C4T97: Where does it say 53 people were killed ? I don’t see it in the book. Thank you. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 17:40, 18 March 2023 (UTC)